I suppose when a project fails people ask charge backs or if they are not happy with the direction the game is going. Don't think it is right though but on the other hand when a project fails how do you get the money back. They really should have better laws governing Kickstarter projects that fail .
That's just it. You don't get your money back. That's the entire premise of crowdfunded projects. People have a project idea that others want to see made. The funders are willing to risk their money that the project will succeed and complete how they envisioned.
If a project fails, then it fails and you don't get your money back. It's not a "if I like then you can keep my money" sort of deal. I do agree there should be legal guidelines around crowdfunding, but I don't think it's very simple to establish those.
I agree there should be legal guidelines around crowdfunding. Talk about a risky proposition. I feel certain goals should be stated by the people asking for money. These goals should be clearly written and agreed upon by the person contributing, and if these goals have not been met by the goals time limit then a full refund should be granted.
First of all, there are rules. It does state that there must have been effort made to complete the project indicated. Pretty fluffy stuff, but it's there. Based on my understanding, there has only been one who was charged with fraud (and it wasn't a video game).
Secondly, requiring detailed milestones or goals undermines the whole reason that crowdfunding is great. The RISK associated with crowdfunded projects is based on a common desire of backers to see "X" done. "X" being something remarkable, innovative, revolutionary, unique, unknown. I mean if "X" were known then there would be no risk, would there? Also, if "X" were something publishers were doing, I doubt people would put there money towards funding it? However, anecdotal evidence, from Kickstarter, suggests that these type of niche games aren't what you might call "main stream" as only thousands or tens of thousands (in rare cases) ever care enough to back them.
So, no, I don't think that wrapping a crowdfunding campaign in a set of explicit goals is a good idea, nor does it accomplish anything, since by the time that time rolls around, money is already spent, theoretically. So now we're bankrupting someone who wanted to make something innovative in an industry where people complain there's a lack of innovation?
Of course you are not trying to bankrupt honest and earnest people. You have to couch it in the proper phrases to make them liable. Like misappropriation or wilful mismanagement of funds, planned misfeasance or pattern of behaviour or breach of trust . So that people who are genuine are not the subject but those people who by mismanagement whether negligent or intentional just whittle away people's money.
I feel at present there is too much room for the misappropriation of funds that people put up in good faith that the architects of these kickstarters are taking advantage of.
I agree there should be legal guidelines around crowdfunding. Talk about a risky proposition. I feel certain goals should be stated by the people asking for money. These goals should be clearly written and agreed upon by the person contributing, and if these goals have not been met by the goals time limit then a full refund should be granted.
Problem with that idea is if they earnestly try to make a game, that means they're spending that money, so where exactly does the refund come from?
I've been expecting something like this for some time now, I doubt it's the last entity we see making such a move, and rightly so IMO, they're not responsible for bad decisions, those putting the money out should be.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Paypal Payment Protection to End for Crowd-Funding - MMORPG.com News
Paypal has announced that users participating in crowd funding initiatives will no longer qualify for payment protection. Included crowd-funding services falling under the new rules are Indigogo and KickStarter. Paypal indicated that these initiatives embody too many "risks and uncertainties".
What about crowdfunding which is not through the popular crowdfunding sites, but through the company's own site, as RSI for Star Citizen or Saga of Lucimia? Some projects are advertising as pre-orders but have crowdfunding ToS, which state no refunds after "x period", generally 2 weeks. Will companies go case by case with products with relevance to their customer agreements?
What about crowdfunding which is not through the popular crowdfunding sites, but through the company's own site, as RSI for Star Citizen or Saga of Lucimia? Some projects are advertising as pre-orders but have crowdfunding ToS, which state no refunds after "x period", generally 2 weeks. Will companies go case by case with products with relevance to their customer agreements?
I'm not exactly sure how the relationship works between Paypal and the vendor, but I'd assume Paypal receives some type of information on what the vendor is selling (ie whether it's a product or funding campaign as an example).
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Basically you have a salesman coming up to you and saying this will work. It's not here yet but when and if it is, it will be great. People buy into that. Taking for granted they will like the game, the game will be finished, the money will be properly managed, nothing will happen to the developer, what's presented will be like what's produced, the developer won't sell out.
The odds are by default against the game being what you dreamed it will be. People realizes this and want their money back. Devs don't want to give them their money back, PayPal doesn't want to be caught in the middle.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Will only apply to new purchases, there is no way paypal could ever hope to win a lawsuit for existing purchases. You can not make a protection guarantee like they did then when people use that protection suddenly say sorry we changed our mind.
I'd think that would depend on whether it could be argued people are/were abusing the system as it stood during the initial agreement.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
No company should take on the risk of Kickstarter. They are basically a donation without any promises.
This is EXACTLY why I do not back kickstarters. Because I would rather spend my money elsewhere. You people can call me an ASS HOLE all you want. When these game get released to prime time I will then buy it not before.
This is why I prefer to wait and see what the game is like when it comes out. If it's a good game and well managed it will come out, then I'll have a look at it and decide if I want to put money into it.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
People have been treating Kickstarter as if it's just a big beta shopping mall. When things are delayed and when products don't meet expectations, people start crying and demanding their money back. They abuse Paypal. That's not how Kickstarter is supposed to work. It's about risk.
If someone wants my money, they are going to need to show more than just concept art, ideas, and a character running around in an empty world. A MMO world (terrain, trees, grass, hills, mountains, rivers, oceans, etc) is MUCH easier to make than most would think.
I had a couple problems that were through paypal that i did not like how they worked.
IMO this is nothing more than Paypal not wanting to deal with any money back ideas,they only want to deal with ideas that actually make them money. I look back 30 years ago and it is just unreal how things have changed,banks ripping us off for tons of money,shotty operations ,kickstarters that have basically no legal obligations,hydro bills going up because they say we used too little hydro ,just tons of BS out there in the world.
Point being Paypal sees this avenue as a potential pain in the ass for them,having to wait out 30 days then possibly giving the donator's money back and never gaining anything from the whole transaction.Notice how they will still gladly have you use their service ,just no protection ..lmao ..can't be anymore lame and obvious.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
No company should take on the risk of Kickstarter. They are basically a donation without any promises.
This is EXACTLY why I do not back kickstarters. Because I would rather spend my money elsewhere. You people can call me an ASS HOLE all you want. When these game get released to prime time I will then buy it not before.
This is why I prefer to wait and see what the game is like when it comes out. If it's a good game and well managed it will come out, then I'll have a look at it and decide if I want to put money into it.
Exactly. Although I have thrown money at other games for a kick-starter. But those came out and were successful :P
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Will only apply to new purchases, there is no way paypal could ever hope to win a lawsuit for existing purchases. You can not make a protection guarantee like they did then when people use that protection suddenly say sorry we changed our mind.
It's in the updated terms. If you don't want to accept the new terms of service you can close your account. They gave notice and warning.
They don't have to provide a chargeback for past purchases. They aren't going to even offer the option in the future. Just because they offered the option doesn't mean they had to provide it. It meant they had to spend the time and money to process the request. Too many chargebacks on paypal in the past could also get your account closed. So it's not a huge change in the way the system worked. They're just cutting costs on not even offering the option now.
I would bet a judge even arbitration would see it different, they made a contract to provide purchase protection if you used their service. Would be like a car dealer selling you a car with 5 year warranty then deciding they will no longer honor the warranty because the car turned out to be a lemon.
Anyone that does a chargeback on a failed Kickstarter is abusing chargebacks. People that DONATED to a project either knew or should know the risks. We don't need big brothers in this. Otherwise, the point of crowdfunding will be ruined, because people need other people to wipe their rears for them.
Not true in all cases. Consider the people who buy into games and the company simply scammed them and ran off with their money. Greed Monger ring a bell?
When a Kickstarter project blatantly robs the people that gave them money, a chargeback is well warranted.
Hey guys I have a game I'm coming out with. Need some Kickstarter help.
I have some fly throughs and a website coming soon. It has OWPVP FFA. If you don't like PVP you can press a button and make all the PVP players disappear, and never be bothered. The graphics are stylized, but if you press a button it can turn it photorealistic. It's action combat, but if you press a button it becomes tab target. If you don't like having to press a button to change things we have a mobile app that allows you to speak commands and do it for you. We're using all the best 3D engines and you can press a button to swap to your favorite.
We'll have various packages ranging from Bronze to triple diamond ($50k). Our ETA to launch is sometime in Neverary 2054 (the triple diamond package also acts as a down playment for cryogenic sleep for those worried about the release date).
Looking forward to building this pipe dream with you all.
World Of Warcitizen Fall (COMING SOON)
Interested, but you forgot to include your Kickstarter page link.
I could be wrong, but wouldnt a decision like this simply increase the number of frauds on crowd fundings? The parts about "gaming" and "government agency" also worries me.
There are many forms of crowdfunding, but when it comes to Kickstarter
Where is Kickstarter in this? They're taking money... a nice easy 5% right off the top with costs pretty much being zero. Where is their responsibility?
Maybe all those millions they're making should provide for some policing, investigation and prosecution for fraudulent use of their service. With the taking of money must come some responsibility. Kickstarter should be vetting these initiatives and should hold some measure of accountability.
There are many forms of crowdfunding, but when it comes to Kickstarter
Where is Kickstarter in this? They're taking money... a nice easy 5% right off the top with costs pretty much being zero. Where is their responsibility?
Maybe all those millions they're making should provide for some policing, investigation and prosecution for fraudulent use of their service. With the taking of money must come some responsibility. Kickstarter should be vetting these initiatives and should hold some measure of accountability.
The modern version of Snake Oil
Snake Oil might be a little harsh. I find that many people act like the bad is pandemic, when the reality is that only around 2% have been officially cancelled, ever, and another 2 or 3% are on hiatus (might as well be cancelled). That's 5%. There's another 20% +/- 5% that are still in development. From those, even if half were to never be completed in some way (EA, full release, etc), we'd be still be below 20%. And I think that as people become more educated, the number of "duds" will decrease. As it stands right now, KS can lay claim to one Game of the Year as Divinity OS was voted by a number of sites as PC GotY back in 2014. The number of titles on Steam, at this point, is up 100% over last year, at a glance. Truth is that the execution of KS games is actually becoming quite good compared to the early years.
Further to that, you're just blindly assuming that Kickstarter does nothing to monitor their system. You do realize that they employ over 100 people, right? The owner/operator must be pretty stupid to employ that many people to just sit around and fill a chair. Nope! Sorry! Not the case at all. While they may not have the ability to directly refund backer money, they still monitor projects to ensure that they are legitimate and reasonable. I think it's a little short-sighted to believe that there is no policing going on. If scams were rampant, it would ultimately devalue their brand, which would be bad for their business, so they would definitely be doing work behind the scenes.
Comments
First of all, there are rules. It does state that there must have been effort made to complete the project indicated. Pretty fluffy stuff, but it's there. Based on my understanding, there has only been one who was charged with fraud (and it wasn't a video game).
Secondly, requiring detailed milestones or goals undermines the whole reason that crowdfunding is great. The RISK associated with crowdfunded projects is based on a common desire of backers to see "X" done. "X" being something remarkable, innovative, revolutionary, unique, unknown. I mean if "X" were known then there would be no risk, would there? Also, if "X" were something publishers were doing, I doubt people would put there money towards funding it? However, anecdotal evidence, from Kickstarter, suggests that these type of niche games aren't what you might call "main stream" as only thousands or tens of thousands (in rare cases) ever care enough to back them.
So, no, I don't think that wrapping a crowdfunding campaign in a set of explicit goals is a good idea, nor does it accomplish anything, since by the time that time rolls around, money is already spent, theoretically. So now we're bankrupting someone who wanted to make something innovative in an industry where people complain there's a lack of innovation?
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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I feel at present there is too much room for the misappropriation of funds that people put up in good faith that the architects of these kickstarters are taking advantage of.
I've been expecting something like this for some time now, I doubt it's the last entity we see making such a move, and rightly so IMO, they're not responsible for bad decisions, those putting the money out should be.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The odds are by default against the game being what you dreamed it will be. People realizes this and want their money back. Devs don't want to give them their money back, PayPal doesn't want to be caught in the middle.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I'd think that would depend on whether it could be argued people are/were abusing the system as it stood during the initial agreement.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
People have been treating Kickstarter as if it's just a big beta shopping mall. When things are delayed and when products don't meet expectations, people start crying and demanding their money back. They abuse Paypal. That's not how Kickstarter is supposed to work. It's about risk.
If someone wants my money, they are going to need to show more than just concept art, ideas, and a character running around in an empty world. A MMO world (terrain, trees, grass, hills, mountains, rivers, oceans, etc) is MUCH easier to make than most would think.
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
IMO this is nothing more than Paypal not wanting to deal with any money back ideas,they only want to deal with ideas that actually make them money.
I look back 30 years ago and it is just unreal how things have changed,banks ripping us off for tons of money,shotty operations ,kickstarters that have basically no legal obligations,hydro bills going up because they say we used too little hydro ,just tons of BS out there in the world.
Point being Paypal sees this avenue as a potential pain in the ass for them,having to wait out 30 days then possibly giving the donator's money back and never gaining anything from the whole transaction.Notice how they will still gladly have you use their service ,just no protection ..lmao ..can't be anymore lame and obvious.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Not true in all cases. Consider the people who buy into games and the company simply scammed them and ran off with their money. Greed Monger ring a bell?
When a Kickstarter project blatantly robs the people that gave them money, a chargeback is well warranted.
Also forgot purchasable imaginary vehicles!
Where is Kickstarter in this? They're taking money... a nice easy 5% right off the top with costs pretty much being zero. Where is their responsibility?
Maybe all those millions they're making should provide for some policing, investigation and prosecution for fraudulent use of their service. With the taking of money must come some responsibility. Kickstarter should be vetting these initiatives and should hold some measure of accountability.
The modern version of Snake Oil
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Snake Oil might be a little harsh. I find that many people act like the bad is pandemic, when the reality is that only around 2% have been officially cancelled, ever, and another 2 or 3% are on hiatus (might as well be cancelled). That's 5%. There's another 20% +/- 5% that are still in development. From those, even if half were to never be completed in some way (EA, full release, etc), we'd be still be below 20%. And I think that as people become more educated, the number of "duds" will decrease. As it stands right now, KS can lay claim to one Game of the Year as Divinity OS was voted by a number of sites as PC GotY back in 2014. The number of titles on Steam, at this point, is up 100% over last year, at a glance. Truth is that the execution of KS games is actually becoming quite good compared to the early years.
Further to that, you're just blindly assuming that Kickstarter does nothing to monitor their system. You do realize that they employ over 100 people, right? The owner/operator must be pretty stupid to employ that many people to just sit around and fill a chair. Nope! Sorry! Not the case at all. While they may not have the ability to directly refund backer money, they still monitor projects to ensure that they are legitimate and reasonable. I think it's a little short-sighted to believe that there is no policing going on. If scams were rampant, it would ultimately devalue their brand, which would be bad for their business, so they would definitely be doing work behind the scenes.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------