Too bad Sodapoppin is probably one of the biggest whiners on Twitch. Much of his rant is based on pure nostalgia, and like many he doesn't seem to get past the whole changes.
His point about WoW leveling may hold a little water. However, as someone who has all classes at level 100, I can tell you that heirlooms is about the only thing that makes leveling even remotely enjoyable, since you can effectively skip multiple zones. His point about doing dungeons all the way from 15-100 is a bit ridiculous. Dungeons become less effective at the higher levels, and doing a combination of questing/dungeons becomes more efficient. 90-100, dungeons aren't even remotely as efficient as the other methods of leveling.
He also points out how there's no community and you don't see people in the world. Another gross exaggeration. I've run into a ton of people while out in the world. On the server I play on the chats are super active and actually friendly for the most part.
He actually whines about Transmog. He also goes on about how PvE gear should still be useful in PvP. Sorry, he pretty much has lost all credibility there.
Not to mention that Sodapoppin is so self-absorbed that he actually posted a whiny rant about how he didn't get an invite to the Overwatch beta. He actually used a slap in the fact analogy in his no overwatch beta rant.
The fact that he is a streamer doesn't lend any more or less credibility to anything he says. Considering his track record, I'd say him leaving the game would be better for it on the whole.
Too bad Sodapoppin is probably one of the biggest whiners on Twitch. Much of his rant is based on pure nostalgia, and like many he doesn't seem to get past the whole changes.
Pretty sure he was in diapers when Vanilla actually released... What nostalgia could he possible be feeling?
You obviously have no idea why people dont like WoW mr. fanboi. Its because the game no longer feels it has a soul. With all the LFG's, LFR's the broken crafting that is completely useless, and unrewarding lobbied game play plus the fact being well geared is no longer hard to do, people are just losing interest so get over it. Vanilla wow was a time were you talked and met with people in game built relationships and got to know people but those times are far gone, most meet in guild forums now just to use each other to blow through content. Its not the friendly home we all remember and with blizzards budget everyone knows these stupid lobbied features were added just to capitalize on the casuals and that's what rubs long time fans the wrong way, and trust me theirs millions. I love WoW I love the story of WoW but ill stick to the books their much better.
Eccoton@ I also wanted to add that I find your art incredible and want to give you big cred for it being so epic, imaginative ,and utterly inspiriting.
Thank you OP I am rather intrigued by what you wrote about exploring the world of Warcraft and I guess I came to the conclusion that I have been going back and playing WoW all wrong. I go back each time and start a new character and then as soon as I can I join the dungeon queues since I am playing a healer more often than not as I like healing and groups. I realised that each time I have left it is exactly this reason that ultimately chases me away. I begin to get depressed over the way the dungeon runs never actually dungeon crawl and people are so rude I am often reduced to just being silent and enduring the run . Each time this succeeds in chasing me away.
I do love the world of Warcraft though I just have not been doing what you suggest though and I should actually be doing that. So if I just travel and go from zone to zone doing and quests and exploring the world although my gear will be woefully under par as I would be avoiding doing the dungeon queue can I actually manage without the gear? I mean forget the auction house the gear will be too expensive and from what I recall the crafting was always levels behind what I can wear so do you think I can enjoy myself like this. I am truly grateful you have opened my eyes a bit and made me think about the reasons for why I have left the game each time.
Although I must admit that I absolutely loved grouping in the game when I first started in 2005 but that is no longer possible. The dungeon groups are toxic and often make you regret playing. I am truly sad that this will be a lonely playthrough but tell me did you find yourself enjoying the game although you were soloing. I am scared to hope that exploring the world with a class you enjoy like this will bring some of that magic back. I had forgotten how beautiful and open the world of WoW was and I am hoping to recapture that. I think a hunter would be the best no do you have a better character that does not require better gear and money to survive harder content.
I will eschew the dungeon finder and stay exploring the world this time. Advice me on the class that will help me do this best. In the past I have always played priests,shamans and druids for the healing in groups. This time I must look towards a class that can take on harder content for the better gear rewards from quests and also allow me the ability to explore.
I got to recommend a hunter beast master by far my favorite class. You can solo group and pvp with hunter but exploration with hunter is so much fun. Because I like exploring that lends itself to taming the unique one of a kind pet. I love taking down a raid boss for the first time but my biggest thrills in WoW have been epic Tames. The day I tamed King Krush was awesome! Everyone plays and appreciates or hates WoW for their own reasons. I still find excitement in the wonderful open world to explore despite some unfortunate changes and 12 years in the game.
I disagree with your opinion and I'm pretty sure the 250k people that signed the petition to open up a paid Vanilla server would disagree with you. The famous streamers that had begun with WoW on twitch are disagreeing with you. Just because you prefer sitting in your garrison playing with dungeon queues doesn't mean everyone else does and that they've changed if they don't like it.
Yeah, because it's not like online petitions can be signed multiple times by the same person, right? Oh wait...
Also, just because a streamer started with WoW and moved on doesn't mean they dislike the game. There are quite a few reasons that somebody, especially a streamer, would stop playing. Furthermore, WoW streams still make up a substantial amount of Twitch's content, more so than any other MMO. A few 'famous' streamers dropping the game isn't the least bit indicative of a large number of players clamoring for vanilla.
I hope they do open a vanilla server though. That way those of us who know better can laugh as it crashes and burns when people have the rose tinted glasses snatched from their faces, and they see just how utterly simplistic, grindy, unbalanced, and devoid of content it was.
@eccoton Your post is spot on. A shame most probably won't take the time to read it.
Thanks, I was not trying to convince anyone they are wrong or that I am right just stating my opinion about WoW and trying to explain I judge WoW on more then some changes I disagree with. WoW is the sum of the total package for me and if Blizzard goes to far for me then I will move on. However over all I feel WoW is a better overall experience now then in vanilla. That does not mean I did not have fun during those time I sure did but I am having fun now too.
Blizzard told the OP that they know what he wants, and he doesn't.
The OP believed Blizzard.
I know clearly what I want in an mmo and Blizzard delivers as does a few other developers. The fact you do not like it does not mean it is no good and that others should agree with you. I love the tone of some people who are unhappy with WoW that somehow people who enjoy the current WoW are gullible, weak minded, do not know what we want. Some people just never can understand that someone else may have a different opinion and neither opinion is better then the other, they are just different opinions.
Seriously, at some point, people are going to have to stop crying about WoW. Whether you think it was awesome before and sucks now or if you believe that it ruined MMO's, it's just a game in a sea of games, build a bridge and get over it already. I'm all for complaining about stuff, FFS, do we need to hear this for another decade?
I wrote this because I get tired of the complaining, just move on. I have left other games I felt went to far. What I do not do is complain about I game I left. Why bother I do not play it anymore. While WoW is just a game in a sea of games, mmos in particular tend to be more then the sum of their game parts and do evoke emotions and loyalties unlike other genres. I may voice my opinion on a games forum for developers to rethink something I disagree with but I do not attack those who like a change or a game I dislike. Wow seems to evoke this kind of anger often. If a developers goes to far I simply take my money somewhere else.
Here is the problem I see in you train of thought, you wrote a very long piece basically complaining about others complaining. Showing your own beliefs why things are the way they are. Just because you believe in something doesn't mean anyone else has to agree, and they have a right to voice their beliefs also.
Even though I agree with most of what you wrote ithas an oxymoronic effect. Just like you I am an older gamer. I started with pong in the very late 70's. I have seen every argument that can be made about design decisions at this point. But I even will voice my distaste for design decision from time to time. It is everyone's right to do so in what ever manner they wish.
Its amazing that no matter what it is, be it people, services, objects, or anything really. There are people out there that cannot stand to let something get popular or stay popular. The longer Warcraft stays around, the more bitter trolls come out and let more hate into the world. I say who cares what if its subscribers go up or down, who cares if there's a new expansion, who cares if Blizzard makes a new game. guess what you don't have to play it. Now I guess you would care if all your friends were playing it and you were sitting in the corner alone and jealous sippin on your Haterade. You might care if your a fan, and guess what Blizzard is doing great with you being a fan, its stockholders are happy.
I disagree with your opinion and I'm pretty sure the 250k people that signed the petition to open up a paid Vanilla server would disagree with you. The famous streamers that had begun with WoW on twitch are disagreeing with you. Just because you prefer sitting in your garrison playing with dungeon queues doesn't mean everyone else does and that they've changed if they don't like it.
I would wager a shit ton more people would agree with the OP over you and the rest of the bitter vets. I was in vanilla and would never go back. Wow isn't perfect, but like most things in life it evolves. Just because it doesn't fit your narrow view doesn't make it wrong or a bad game.
Amazing art my friend. I envy people like you who have this talent. I'm going to put your site on my favorites list and check from time to time to see what else you conjure up :-)
Seriously, at some point, people are going to have to stop crying about WoW. Whether you think it was awesome before and sucks now or if you believe that it ruined MMO's, it's just a game in a sea of games, build a bridge and get over it already. I'm all for complaining about stuff, FFS, do we need to hear this for another decade?
I wrote this because I get tired of the complaining, just move on. I have left other games I felt went to far. What I do not do is complain about I game I left. Why bother I do not play it anymore. While WoW is just a game in a sea of games, mmos in particular tend to be more then the sum of their game parts and do evoke emotions and loyalties unlike other genres. I may voice my opinion on a games forum for developers to rethink something I disagree with but I do not attack those who like a change or a game I dislike. Wow seems to evoke this kind of anger often. If a developers goes to far I simply take my money somewhere else.
Here is the problem I see in you train of thought, you wrote a very long piece basically complaining about others complaining. Showing your own beliefs why things are the way they are. Just because you believe in something doesn't mean anyone else has to agree, and they have a right to voice their beliefs also.
Even though I agree with most of what you wrote ithas an oxymoronic effect. Just like you I am an older gamer. I started with pong in the very late 70's. I have seen every argument that can be made about design decisions at this point. But I even will voice my distaste for design decision from time to time. It is everyone's right to do so in what ever manner they wish.
Exactly everyone has a right to voice their opinion. There is nothing in my post that would suggest other wise. In fact my post and all my post at mmorpg.com support this idea. You should voice your opinion about a game you love if you disagree with the changes. What I have a problem with is the tone of the complaining that somehow because I like the game I do not get it. I also find it funny some people complain about a game they no longer play or ever intent to play again but they have the right to complain, just seems a waste of time to me. What you quoted from me was mostly in regards to vanilla. I do think it is time to stop complaining and move on, vanilla was like 7 to 8 years ago.
I have been on these forums for years and so much complaining seems to be nothing more then complaining for the sake of complaining. Did you read the whole piece. It was not complaining about others complaining it was about what WoW means to me and how I view the game and how I experience it. That is why most changes Blizzard made have not run me off. The core experience WoW offers is fun and gets better and better for my play style and entertainment. WoW is more then a console game like Pong to me. Most MMO are more then just a console game to me. That is what the post was mostly about.
I started in the early 70s with my Magnavox Odyssey 2000.
I have not posted here in a long time. I still come and look at the site and forums almost everyday (still my favorite mmo site) but I got tired of posting with the often hateful and mean spirited relies. However as an almost 12 year WoW player (started in beta) I have a few feelings about the state of WoW and the state of players negative comments about how Blizzard screwed up WoW.
With legions approaching it seems the WoW forums on many sights are more active. There is also a lot of talk about the legacy or progressions severs because of Nostalrius shutting down. All I see is how people want a Vanilla server. The supporters of this idea use Nostalrius as an example. I doubt most of those players even played Vanilla WoW. They were playing on Nostalrius because it was free more then it was vanilla! Blizzard would not have to revert WoW to vanilla to get back over 10 million players again they would just have to make WoW free to play with no item mall totally free. After all was that not what Nostalrius was, totally free?
I have heard it a 1000s time Vanilla WoW was so great and Blizzard got greedy and screwed the game up and "Oh my god Garrisons totally ruined WoW!" Everyday there is someone crying about Garrisons and Blizzards greed. I know I am not the only one who thinks Garrisons are a fun addition. Got news for some of you, you do not have to stay in your garrisons all day, I don't. If you anchor yourself there it is your fault not the game mechanics. Then again I want housing! I do get tired of living on the streets and at least garrisons gave me a place to call my own in Azeroth. As far as Blizzards greed they are a business. I have never met any of the employees of Blizzard but I have seen them talk in documentaries, stream, interviews, etc and I see a bunch of excited committed people who love WoW and making games not the greedy bastards I read about. Blizzard is one talented group of artists who created an amazing work of art in World of Warcraft. Yes I consider it art. I am an artist but that does not make me an expert in art but I do feel Azeroth is a living work of art. I am opening myself up for a thrashing but here is what I do if you are inclined to, take a look. http://eccoarts.deviantart.com
Vanilla WoW was fun, it was fresh and new. I loved the open world pvp and unfortunately that is gone. However the changes over the years to pvp has made it more fun for me and I do a lot more of it. Many are right to say it was harder to level and the challenge was fun, it was. For me the sheer amount to explore and the time it takes to see most of it now is far more exciting then spending a month in one zone like in Vanilla. I wonder how many players actually explore all they can and read all the wonderful lore anymore. Mostly I see people power leveling to end game. Those types of players miss the point of Azeroth. Then again I am the type of player who does not use heirlooms to level alts because each alt I create has a different story to tell and to experience.
Raiding was a much more elite activity in Vanilla WoW. So making raiding more accessible to more players who also pay a monthly fee was such a horrible thing and killed WoW? What many are really complaining about is they are not so elite anymore. Many players have to engage in the showoff factor to enjoy their time in an mmo. That does not matter to me I do not care if others have the rarest mount I took months to get because I had fun getting it and riding it. Many of my feelings about mmos I am sure are somewhat due to my age 56 and the fact I have been playing them since 1996 with Meridian 59. I do not play an mmo as a game to win, it is a living world to explore and interact in to me. So the more I can experience the more enjoyment I get for my time and money. I can honestly say after nearly 12 years in WoW I am having more fun then ever. You can troll me, tear me up, and insult my reasoning but the fact is it is true and I hope am not alone.
Let's not forget if you have played WoW since release you are 12 years older. You changed, your life has changed and mmos have changed. That is how life works! Of course I am not happy with all the changes to WoW over the years but it is in my opinion still the best show in town for the price of the ticket. The amount of enjoyment it has provided me in the last 12 years has been amazing. Even with some of the crappy changes Blizzard made.
Blizzard did not screw up WoW for most of you. You simply changed. I also can understand, how for many, 12 years of a game can get boring no matter what the developer decides. So some feel they have to blame someone for leaving something they put so much time and effort into. This helps justify the feeling of loss. (I am not saying this is true for everyone, some of you just hate the direction Blizzard took, I get that) Many of the comments people make about WoW seem like they are talking about it like a console game to be won not lived it. I have an Xbox One and a Ps4 for those games. I guess I am the only player in WoW who thinks it is better and more fun then ever. I have fond memories of my time in vanilla. I also have fond memories of try my first Mythic raid in WLOD and getting my ass kicked. WoW is much more then a game to me. I will end with this story.
For a few week before Thanksgiving 2012 I was not feeling well. I even went to the doctor but nothing seemed to be amiss. The Saturday before Thanksgiving I was at a Food Lion and started getting a very heavy feeling in my chest. I cut my shopping short and went home. A few hours later the elephant sat on my chest. I knew something was really bad. Yup I had a nasty heart attack. I did not play any games for a few weeks. I was scared and felt alone. I was scared to do much of anything. After a few weeks I decided to log in to WoW. My main character was in Stormwind, when I heard the music playing I cried. I cried because I was home and somehow I knew I would be ok. Many of my guild mates asked where I had been for so long so I told them what happened. The kindness I received from them and the WoW community was fantastic and meant so much to me. I did not feel so scared or alone anymore. I realized WoW was not just a game it was a way of life to some extent. It is home.
I am 56 and when I walk around I am recognized by my World of Warcraft hat I wear everyday. I loved it so much I bought 8 of them. I get stopped all the time by kids, adults, men, and women asking if I really play WoW and I say the same thing "I am a proud 11+ year veteran" and I still play. So despite all the change some not so good but most very good I log in everyday to find one consistency in my life Azeroth not the mechanics of the game but the place and the people! I am sure I will be exploring Azeroth until Blizzard turns the lights. Now that will be a sad and glorious day I am looking forward to the 20th anniversary!
P.S. - Please excuse any typos or grammatical errors after all like I said I am a visual artist not a writer.
I happen to be the same age and agree with your post and the feelings it evokes. ^^
You obviously have no idea why people dont like WoW mr. fanboi. Its because the game no longer feels it has a soul. With all the LFG's, LFR's the broken crafting that is completely useless, and unrewarding lobbied game play plus the fact being well geared is no longer hard to do, people are just losing interest so get over it. Vanilla wow was a time were you talked and met with people in game built relationships and got to know people but those times are far gone, most meet in guild forums now just to use each other to blow through content. Its not the friendly home we all remember and with blizzards budget everyone knows these stupid lobbied features were added just to capitalize on the casuals and that's what rubs long time fans the wrong way, and trust me theirs millions. I love WoW I love the story of WoW but ill stick to the books their much better.
I disagree with your opinion and I'm pretty sure the 250k people that signed the petition to open up a paid Vanilla server would disagree with you. The famous streamers that had begun with WoW on twitch are disagreeing with you. Just because you prefer sitting in your garrison playing with dungeon queues doesn't mean everyone else does and that they've changed if they don't like it.
I would wager a shit ton more people would agree with the OP over you and the rest of the bitter vets. I was in vanilla and would never go back. Wow isn't perfect, but like most things in life it evolves. Just because it doesn't fit your narrow view doesn't make it wrong or a bad game.
Bitter Vets? lulz troll more! Hey lets turn that around. Maybe your just one of those bitter players who never saw the inside of MC or BWL when they were relevant. what your calling evolving I think most gamers would call regressing. Vanilla WOW was already EZ mode for the original generation of MMO gamers. Every choice Blizzard has made to make the game more casual friendly the farther away from an actual MMO world WOW has gotten and closer to a single player game with a multiplayer lobby.. Let me guess your first game was COD on XBOX.. hey that's an Activision Blizzard game as well.. see the connection there?
Blizzard told the OP that they know what he wants, and he doesn't.
The OP believed Blizzard.
I know clearly what I want in an mmo and Blizzard delivers as does a few other developers. The fact you do not like it does not mean it is no good and that others should agree with you. I love the tone of some people who are unhappy with WoW that somehow people who enjoy the current WoW are gullible, weak minded, do not know what we want. Some people just never can understand that someone else may have a different opinion and neither opinion is better then the other, they are just different opinions.
Thanks for the hunter beastmaster spec advice. I did once some years ago trudged up while getting killed a lot to Teldrassil with an orc and tamed an owl. She was like level 10 I think I will go dust her off and oh gosh she has like 10 gold on her. Well if I am going to just rely on quest gear I guess I better get used to not worrying about money. Also on a low population server but what the heck I'll give it a shot.
I also forgot to mention in my other post the art on Deviant is good work.
You obviously have no idea why people dont like WoW mr. fanboi. Its because the game no longer feels it has a soul. With all the LFG's, LFR's the broken crafting that is completely useless, and unrewarding lobbied game play plus the fact being well geared is no longer hard to do, people are just losing interest so get over it. Vanilla wow was a time were you talked and met with people in game built relationships and got to know people but those times are far gone, most meet in guild forums now just to use each other to blow through content. Its not the friendly home we all remember and with blizzards budget everyone knows these stupid lobbied features were added just to capitalize on the casuals and that's what rubs long time fans the wrong way, and trust me theirs millions. I love WoW I love the story of WoW but ill stick to the books their much better.
Winner WInner chicken dinner!
Rasiem is right, my whole original post was based on my opinion, 20+ year playing mmos, interacting with the mmo community and following the industry. (I never called players or ask anyone to take a poll.). Just as all his/your points are assumptions, generalizations, and your opinion, based on your experience not mine. The good things he talks about in Vanilla I still experience everyday I log into WoW. I talk to all sorts of players and build all sorts of relationships. I love that I am in Azeroth tackling content with other players from all around the world. I never blow through content and neither do the people I play with. I play this way because I do not view mmos as games only about stats or a game to win like most console games are. I do play a lot on both my Xbox one and my PS4 because I like all sorts of gaming experiences. I choose to accept the game mechanic changes and play the game as it is currently presented to me. Am I happy about all the changes? Nope. However I decided that the sum of the whole game is still more then worth my 15 dollar ticket a month. I also find WoW for the most part to still be a very friendly game.
Rasiem says that all these things rub the longtime fan the wrong way. I am a longtime fan been actively playing since beta and was playing Warcraft before that (with a break here and there for things like my heart attack or a few months trying new mmos). He claims all the things that made Vanilla WoW so good are all gone. In my experience most are not gone and some have changed. It is simply that those changes you find horrible I did not experience in the same way as you so I still play because I am willing to change my play style if needed. However in the last few months the WoW bashers have been more active to try and convince us continued WoW fans that the game is no good and we are deluded for supporting it. This is a pattern I see before every expansion is released.
Comments
Just as not everyone who left misunderstood the game or did WoD/Garrisons wrong.
The OP believed Blizzard.
Too bad Sodapoppin is probably one of the biggest whiners on Twitch. Much of his rant is based on pure nostalgia, and like many he doesn't seem to get past the whole changes.
His point about WoW leveling may hold a little water. However, as someone who has all classes at level 100, I can tell you that heirlooms is about the only thing that makes leveling even remotely enjoyable, since you can effectively skip multiple zones. His point about doing dungeons all the way from 15-100 is a bit ridiculous. Dungeons become less effective at the higher levels, and doing a combination of questing/dungeons becomes more efficient. 90-100, dungeons aren't even remotely as efficient as the other methods of leveling.
He also points out how there's no community and you don't see people in the world. Another gross exaggeration. I've run into a ton of people while out in the world. On the server I play on the chats are super active and actually friendly for the most part.
He actually whines about Transmog. He also goes on about how PvE gear should still be useful in PvP. Sorry, he pretty much has lost all credibility there.
Not to mention that Sodapoppin is so self-absorbed that he actually posted a whiny rant about how he didn't get an invite to the Overwatch beta. He actually used a slap in the fact analogy in his no overwatch beta rant.
The fact that he is a streamer doesn't lend any more or less credibility to anything he says. Considering his track record, I'd say him leaving the game would be better for it on the whole.
Thank you so very much.
I got to recommend a hunter beast master by far my favorite class. You can solo group and pvp with hunter but exploration with hunter is so much fun. Because I like exploring that lends itself to taming the unique one of a kind pet. I love taking down a raid boss for the first time but my biggest thrills in WoW have been epic Tames. The day I tamed King Krush was awesome! Everyone plays and appreciates or hates WoW for their own reasons. I still find excitement in the wonderful open world to explore despite some unfortunate changes and 12 years in the game.
Thanks, I was not trying to convince anyone they are wrong or that I am right just stating my opinion about WoW and trying to explain I judge WoW on more then some changes I disagree with. WoW is the sum of the total package for me and if Blizzard goes to far for me then I will move on. However over all I feel WoW is a better overall experience now then in vanilla. That does not mean I did not have fun during those time I sure did but I am having fun now too.
I know clearly what I want in an mmo and Blizzard delivers as does a few other developers. The fact you do not like it does not mean it is no good and that others should agree with you. I love the tone of some people who are unhappy with WoW that somehow people who enjoy the current WoW are gullible, weak minded, do not know what we want. Some people just never can understand that someone else may have a different opinion and neither opinion is better then the other, they are just different opinions.
Even though I agree with most of what you wrote it has an oxymoronic effect. Just like you I am an older gamer. I started with pong in the very late 70's. I have seen every argument that can be made about design decisions at this point. But I even will voice my distaste for design decision from time to time. It is everyone's right to do so in what ever manner they wish.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
I have been on these forums for years and so much complaining seems to be nothing more then complaining for the sake of complaining. Did you read the whole piece. It was not complaining about others complaining it was about what WoW means to me and how I view the game and how I experience it. That is why most changes Blizzard made have not run me off. The core experience WoW offers is fun and gets better and better for my play style and entertainment. WoW is more then a console game like Pong to me. Most MMO are more then just a console game to me. That is what the post was mostly about.
I started in the early 70s with my Magnavox Odyssey 2000.
Yes, they had a big head start there thanks to the Warcraft games and love for Blizzard (like Diablo, SC) too.
The forum community, the mod community, the mmo-champion community & of course countless, countless others.
The fundamental truth of all successful MMOs - player engagement in the community.
These are meant to be social games after all, right?
Thank you very much, that is very kind of you to say.
Thank you very much.
I also forgot to mention in my other post the art on Deviant is good work.
Rasiem says that all these things rub the longtime fan the wrong way. I am a longtime fan been actively playing since beta and was playing Warcraft before that (with a break here and there for things like my heart attack or a few months trying new mmos). He claims all the things that made Vanilla WoW so good are all gone. In my experience most are not gone and some have changed. It is simply that those changes you find horrible I did not experience in the same way as you so I still play because I am willing to change my play style if needed. However in the last few months the WoW bashers have been more active to try and convince us continued WoW fans that the game is no good and we are deluded for supporting it. This is a pattern I see before every expansion is released.