Germany’s supreme court ruling on online games and bots could affect entire EU

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Slapshot1188

Interesting...

Lokero

There's such a huge gap in copyright and legal laws from one nation to the next; it's pretty amazing.

What precisely does #3 mean?  This one kind of blows my mind, if I'm reading that in context.
Is that suggesting someone could buy a product and then re-brand and re-sell their work/assets?  Isn't that already illegal most everywhere?

I'm actually on the dark side with #2 though.  Unless there were real money involved in said competition(like a tournament or something), I don't see the use of third-party software as anything more than a basic publisher's problem.  I don't think it should be considered illegal in any real court. 
The people making money off their game by selling said software(like Honorbuddy), however, is more of a grey area.

Horusra

I would say Honorbuddy has the right to make their program and Blizzard has the right to ban those that use it with no compensation.

Volgore

Horusra said:

I would say Honorbuddy has the right to make their program and Blizzard has the right to ban those that use it with no compensation.

Totally agree here.

"Activision Blizzard tries to prevent the development and distribution of so-called bot software " - so they basicly want to have their say in what everybody is allowed to program and sell?
I said it over and over again, over the years Blizzard became absolute control freaks -but in terms of their copyright claims and bot paranoia they are shooting so far over the top that it is getting absurd.

Hopefully the german court puts them in their place here.

Reizla

If this rules in favor of the bot-maker than I most likely will stop playing MMOs all together. There already is a ruling in the EU that virtual goods are owned by the player and not the company that holds the servers and that the owner of the virtual goods is allowed to sell them for real money (yeah, goldselling is legal according to EU court). If botting will become legal as well then in the EU the old-school legit players have certainly lost

gervaise1

Horusra said:

<snip> Blizzard has the right to ban those that use it with no compensation.

Why? Would it be OK for Blizzard to ban people that is.

The answer matters. For you will be setting a precedent. If you use Windows and decide to use some software that MS has decided to "ban" will it be OK for MS to shut you down? Or a company using some non-approved business software? 

Volgore

Reizla said:

If this rules in favor of the bot-maker than I most likely will stop playing MMOs all together. There already is a ruling in the EU that virtual goods are owned by the player and not the company that holds the servers and that the owner of the virtual goods is allowed to sell them for real money (yeah, goldselling is legal according to EU court). If botting will become legal as well then in the EU the old-school legit players have certainly lost

Or Blizzard can just go on and ban botters, which would be a reasonable measure.

I'm not promoting botting or anything and i see that they have an interest in protecting their game. But they just can't go around and bully everyone to stop doing this and selling that or file copyright claims whenever somebody's fart smells like anything Warcraft.
I for one am glad whenever a countrie's court tells these mega companies that it doesn't work like that.

Horusra

gervaise1 said:

Horusra said:

<snip> Blizzard has the right to ban those that use it with no compensation.

Why? Would it be OK for Blizzard to ban people that is.

The answer matters. For you will be setting a precedent. If you use Windows and decide to use some software that MS has decided to "ban" will it be OK for MS to shut you down? Or a company using some non-approved business software? 

Well you are technically in Blizzard's house when you play the game.  They get to make the rules.  You can only play online on their servers.  With MS you can use it offline.

Also if they tell you upfront in the rules it is not allowed you are warned and thus you assume the risk of using those programs.  If MS warned you that if you are caught with X on your computer they will ban you...wait they do when they check for piracy, but anyway if you are pre-warned that if you use the product and it is something that is monitored by the host then anytime you go online and use their resources you have to use their rules.

It is no different than if I came to your house.  While I am inside I have to follow your rules.

Horusra

Volgore said:

Reizla said:

If this rules in favor of the bot-maker than I most likely will stop playing MMOs all together. There already is a ruling in the EU that virtual goods are owned by the player and not the company that holds the servers and that the owner of the virtual goods is allowed to sell them for real money (yeah, goldselling is legal according to EU court). If botting will become legal as well then in the EU the old-school legit players have certainly lost

Or Blizzard can just go on and ban botters, which would be a reasonable measure.

I'm not promoting botting or anything and i see that they have an interest in protecting their game. But they just can't go around and bully everyone to stop doing this and selling that or file copyright claims whenever somebody's fart smells like anything Warcraft.
I for one am glad whenever a countrie's court tells these mega companies that it doesn't work like that.

I disagree about the copyright...they should fight, sue, bankrupt people that want to infringe on their product.

kitarad

I guess with all the money that Blizzard makes they could develop more aggressive software to detect and ban the users but this is a cheaper alternative.

thinktank001

Aori said:

I don't understand your stance. People are making money off of Blizzards IP at the expense of Blizzard and their customers. Why is it you think Blizzard has no right to confront this shady type of practice?

Fighting botters through banning users is an entirely different story, than using DMCA to stop the 3rd party software makers.  Respectively, one is entirely within their rights and the other is a bit of a grey area.  These 3rd party developers are just offering a product that users want, but using such products generally undermines the stability of the game.

Quizzical

kitarad said:

I guess with all the money that Blizzard makes they could develop more aggressive software to detect and ban the users but this is a cheaper alternative.

If you want to fight cheating, you don't have one approach that is guaranteed to work 100% of the time.  Instead, you have to do a bunch of things that will each catch some portion of it.  Going after the companies that create and sell cheat programs is not a perfect solution, but it is a reasonable partial solution.

thinktank001

Lokero said:

There's such a huge gap in copyright and legal laws from one nation to the next; it's pretty amazing.

What precisely does #3 mean?  This one kind of blows my mind, if I'm reading that in context.
Is that suggesting someone could buy a product and then re-brand and re-sell their work/assets?  Isn't that already illegal most everywhere?

I'm actually on the dark side with #2 though.  Unless there were real money involved in said competition(like a tournament or something), I don't see the use of third-party software as anything more than a basic publisher's problem.  I don't think it should be considered illegal in any real court. 
The people making money off their game by selling said software(like Honorbuddy), however, is more of a grey area.

Who knows what they mean by #3.   Considering #2 is 3rd party software, then I think #3 is questioning the legality of RMT.  DMCA covers just about everything that is art and distribution related.

scorpex-x

Horusra said:

I would say Honorbuddy has the right to make their program and Blizzard has the right to ban those that use it with no compensation.

That's not a good argument at all.

Blizzard has customers, it needs to protect these people from themselves because banning them not only hurts the player but the company too.  If 100k people use honorbound and they ban them all that's a lot of lost profits.

Horusra

scorpex-x said:

Horusra said:

I would say Honorbuddy has the right to make their program and Blizzard has the right to ban those that use it with no compensation.

That's not a good argument at all.

Blizzard has customers, it needs to protect these people from themselves because banning them not only hurts the player but the company too.  If 100k people use honorbound and they ban them all that's a lot of lost profits.

I never like companies or governments "protecting people from themselves".

Jamar870

Botting can screw legit players in a number of ways. Such as monopolizes in games "resources ie mats for crafting"  farming NPCs and interfering legit players access to said NPCs. Feel sorry for EU players if the court rules in favor of the botmaker. Btw, most MMOs are grinders to some extend. If you can't accept that then don't play the ones the have grinding in them.

Solar_Prophet

scorpex-x said:

Horusra said:

I would say Honorbuddy has the right to make their program and Blizzard has the right to ban those that use it with no compensation.

That's not a good argument at all.

Blizzard has customers, it needs to protect these people from themselves because banning them not only hurts the player but the company too.  If 100k people use honorbound and they ban them all that's a lot of lost profits.

Protect people from themselves? Uh, no. People are responsible for their own actions. If they use bots and get banned, that's on them, not Blizzard, and not the company which made the bot program. I know concepts such as personal responsibility are quickly becoming irrelevant in favor of scapegoating anyone and anything possible, but come on. 

@Horusra is correct. Until bot programs are deemed illegal, then companies making them have every right to do so. People who use them do so with the understanding that it's against the TOS of Blizzard's games and, while they're not breaking any laws, Blizzard doesn't allow botting and can and will revoke the privilege of accessing their services of anyone caught doing so. End of story. 

gervaise1

Horusra said:

gervaise1 said:

Horusra said:

<snip> Blizzard has the right to ban those that use it with no compensation.

Why? Would it be OK for Blizzard to ban people that is.

The answer matters. For you will be setting a precedent. If you use Windows and decide to use some software that MS has decided to "ban" will it be OK for MS to shut you down? Or a company using some non-approved business software? 

Well you are technically in Blizzard's house when you play the game.  They get to make the rules.  You can only play online on their servers.  With MS you can use it offline.

Also if they tell you upfront in the rules it is not allowed you are warned and thus you assume the risk of using those programs.  If MS warned you that if you are caught with X on your computer they will ban you...wait they do when they check for piracy, but anyway if you are pre-warned that if you use the product and it is something that is monitored by the host then anytime you go online and use their resources you have to use their rules.

It is no different than if I came to your house.  While I am inside I have to follow your rules.

First MS was just an example. Second Windows does a check when you boot up - increasing common for software to require an online connection. Third who said anything about piracy. But are you saying it would be OK for Ms to declare X a non-program. Or anyone else?

And if you are not careful any precedent set could even extend to other companies. Ford deciding that to use brand X fuel and if you don't their warranty is null and void. Stupid example maybe but where does it stop? 

Hence my question: why? 

If company a that makes Finance and HR software - and lots of companies make suites - decides that it considers other companies HR software "dodgy"and not as "robust" as their HR programs is it OK for them to make their software inoperative if it detects the other companies software? 

And remember bot is just "some software" that does "a repetitive task" - robotic!

And Blizzard don't help themselves either because some "bots" - as in popular add-ons - they do nothing about. And yet all of the add-ons are nothing more than bots that makes raids or quests or crafting easier. 

Kahrek

A good question would be: Could users sue a botmaker for enabling other people to ruin their enjoyment of a software / service they pay for if such actions are against the terms of service of the software. That would make for amazing courtroom drama.

Cheers,

Kyleran

No worries, everyone can just follow the UK in the BREXIT.

FrodoFragins

Volgore said:

Horusra said:

I would say Honorbuddy has the right to make their program and Blizzard has the right to ban those that use it with no compensation.

Totally agree here.

"Activision Blizzard tries to prevent the development and distribution of so-called bot software " - so they basicly want to have their say in what everybody is allowed to program and sell?
I said it over and over again, over the years Blizzard became absolute control freaks -but in terms of their copyright claims and bot paranoia they are shooting so far over the top that it is getting absurd.

Hopefully the german court puts them in their place here.

sure, let anyone write software to ruin all of your players experiences.  sounds fair.

filmoret

Volgore said:

Horusra said:

I would say Honorbuddy has the right to make their program and Blizzard has the right to ban those that use it with no compensation.

Totally agree here.

"Activision Blizzard tries to prevent the development and distribution of so-called bot software " - so they basicly want to have their say in what everybody is allowed to program and sell?
I said it over and over again, over the years Blizzard became absolute control freaks -but in terms of their copyright claims and bot paranoia they are shooting so far over the top that it is getting absurd.

Hopefully the german court puts them in their place here.

Actually if it is made like an addon then it should be subject to copyright laws.  If it is made like a separate program that reads and gives commands then it is free.  You can't piggyback on someone elses work and claim ownership then begin to sell that product.  If it was a free program then there isn't much blizzard should be able to do about it.  But if they are selling it and its directly linked to their programs then they have infringed copyright laws.  They advertise on their front page it is a bot for WOW and they are selling it.  They are clearly in copyright infringement.  You cannot just put another product on the front of your website then sell items.

Quizzical

Whether it should be legal to write and sell cheat software for someone else's games is a political question that should be answered by politicians passing a law either explicitly banning it and providing penalties, or else explicitly allowing it and saying that previous laws shall not be construed as banning it.  Such a clear case of a bot developer writing cheat software to attack someone else's games should not be left as a legal gray area for judges to try to apply decades old laws that predate the existence of computer games.

And to that I say, ban it, at least for online games.  Online game publishers like Blizzard are trying to provide a service to their customers, and cheat programs (including but not limited to bots) that allow other players to cheat can wreck the experience of legitimate, paying players who are their intended customers.

Writing and selling cheat programs should be a civil offense, not a criminal one.  In other words, the penalty should be paying a bunch of money, not jail time.  But it should have sufficient teeth that no one considering writing and selling cheat software can realistically hope to make a profit by doing so.

Distributing cheat software for free is harder to go after with civil penalties, both because the writers be hard to track down, and also because the writers could be "judgment-proof", in that if you have no money and a court orders you to pay someone $10 million, you can't because you don't have $10 million.  But even just squashing professional cheat software while still allowing amateur attempts is better than nothing.  Even so, if the cheat software is open-source, it's easy for game developers to analyze and counter it, and if not, it's likely to be malware-laden, which can deter prospective cheaters.

Mors-Subita

Lokero said:

What precisely does #3 mean?  This one kind of blows my mind, if I'm reading that in context.
Is that suggesting someone could buy a product and then re-brand and re-sell their work/assets?  Isn't that already illegal most everywhere?

#3 basically means that people are not allowed to use the software in their business or as part of their business. A lot of software which has a business application often has a "free" home version and a paid for commercial version. You can usually see this in things like antivirus(i.e. bitdefender) as well as productivity software, etc... Using the free version in an enterprise/business violates your terms of use.

#3 is asking the question of whether or not a gold selling company can purchase copies of the game to use as part of their gold-selling business, for example.

Mors-Subita

Quizzical said:

Whether it should be legal to write and sell cheat software for someone else's games is a political question that should be answered by politicians passing a law either explicitly banning it and providing penalties, or else explicitly allowing it and saying that previous laws shall not be construed as banning it.  Such a clear case of a bot developer writing cheat software to attack someone else's games should not be left as a legal gray area for judges to try to apply decades old laws that predate the existence of computer games.

And to that I say, ban it, at least for online games.  Online game publishers like Blizzard are trying to provide a service to their customers, and cheat programs (including but not limited to bots) that allow other players to cheat can wreck the experience of legitimate, paying players who are their intended customers.

The problem is that there is a grey area... If you are writing a trainer or something that interacts with their game or modify their code, then they have a legal standing(imo)... But what if I use something that reads the graphics data for a specific pixel area on my screen and sends specific key combos depending on what color it is... That does not interact with their code in any way and is completely separate from their software... While that may change the game experience other people are having and may be detrimental to the game experience, they don't have much in the way of legal grounds to condemn it... Any more than they have grounds to condemn me sitting one of those perpetual motion birds next to my keyboard to keep spamming the number 3 for the next couple of days... Or its like in FF3 when you have the loop in the river and if you set the cursor to memory and taped down the right arrow and the "A" button you could go afk and come back in a day or so and all your chars would be lvl 99... Is it cheap? Undoubtedly... Is it cheating? You could definitely make that argument... But in terms of legality, there isn't much you can do about that kind of thing.