Some people do like playing other roleplaying roles outside of combat. Its as simple as that
The entertainer was actually my favorite class in SWG. Played it oodles and ended up switching about between the different options in it to do design, buffing, and tried their combat a bit. Ended up enjoying the way you could structure the dances and music for buffs as well as just fun the most.
Should qualify that I've always been one that prefers support roles and alternative gameplay options in general as I don't actually like conflict much in games. I enjoy a good challenge, which makes me gravitate randomly into PvP games, but ultimately I'd prefer a good co-op PvE title that gives me the freedom to adopt roles that help out and support others where combat isn't a hinging factor to it all.
But I also don't think of myself as a primary market target. T_T
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Some people do like playing other roleplaying roles outside of combat. Its as simple as that
so? is "some people" a big enough audience to devs to pay attention to?
I don't really think it matters if they're big enough. The question is do they have to? Or at least did they since they went WoW or bust. The genre rode a formula. That doesn't mean if given the option those things wouldn't be popular.
Most players have never been exposed to that style of gameplay to even demand or metric they would play that way.
You are just describing different types/genre of games. Why bother to put of them into a single mmorpg?
If I want to play a racing game, or a card game, i would much rather just play an online racing/card game because the devs would not be stretch thin, and can focus on producing the best racing or card game.
Why bother?
Retention. Well built, well rounded games hold peoples attentions longer. When I was playing WAR, for example, I enjoyed the PvP but after a while it becomes tiring. WAR didn't really offer much else in terms of alternative gameplay so when I got tired, I'd just log off. Repetition induces boredom which reduces retention, so having a diverse game can (assuming each part is well built) increase retention which increases profits.
I did add a big caveat at the end of my post in that each new sub-system (entertainment, card games, racing etc) does add a massive extra workload to the dev team so it is unrealistic to see it in an MMO and I have no expectations about seeing such things in future MMOs. Some of the smaller things (like card games) are pretty easy to implement and many MMOs do offer mini-games already (fishing, music in lotro etc) but bigger sidegames / subgames are rare.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Personally I think story should define a MMORPG as it is an RPG. Combat should be a filler not the main point of the game to be honest. But this is a personal preference for me. When combat is more important than the lore and story I feel like I am playing a shooter not a rpg.
Some people do like playing other roleplaying roles outside of combat. Its as simple as that
It's not like those activities don't exist. They just don't define the MMORPG. They're sideshows.
Combat really isn't the main show. It was progression in the WoW era. Granted combat was the most used vehicle. Buy peoole aren't fighting just to fight. It was for levels n loot.
Retention. Well built, well rounded games hold peoples attentions longer.
Why bother? Great single player games make lots of money & last for a few weeks. May be MMO should learn from that. Oh yeah, they did ... that is why 80% of the players leave in the first 30 days for f2p MMOs.
Some people do like playing other roleplaying roles outside of combat. Its as simple as that
so? is "some people" a big enough audience to devs to pay attention to?
I don't really think it matters if they're big enough. The question is do they have to?
If the dev is expecting to make money, yes. The audience has to be big enough to make money. Otherwise, who is going to foot the bill? There aren't even enough whales to pay for non-combat stuff, i bet.
Some people do like playing other roleplaying roles outside of combat. Its as simple as that
It's not like those activities don't exist. They just don't define the MMORPG. They're sideshows.
Combat really isn't the main show. It was progression in the WoW era. Granted combat was the most used vehicle. Buy peoole aren't fighting just to fight. It was for levels n loot.
Obviously not true. If combat is not the main show, and levels n loot are .. then games will just have levels & loot, and no combat (e.g. Eve's raise your skill by just having an account).
The fact that 99% of all gameplay *is* combat ... is pretty undeniable evidence that combat is the main show for most of these games.
Some people do like playing other roleplaying roles outside of combat. Its as simple as that
It's not like those activities don't exist. They just don't define the MMORPG. They're sideshows.
Combat really isn't the main show. It was progression in the WoW era. Granted combat was the most used vehicle. Buy peoole aren't fighting just to fight. It was for levels n loot.
Obviously not true. If combat is not the main show, and levels n loot are .. then games will just have levels & loot, and no combat (e.g. Eve's raise your skill by just having an account).
The fact that 99% of all gameplay *is* combat ... is pretty undeniable evidence that combat is the main show for most of these games.
I have to agree with you. I started this thread because I was wondering about the effect of announcing combat in an upcoming game in the most clear and objective terms. Immediately you have people jumping ship or raising the flag based on how the combat is described.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
But should it? I am wondering if an MMORPG has to have absolutely spellbinding combat. WTF is spell binding combat? Is combat really role-playing? Isn't MMORPG combat really pretty boring anyway?
MMORPGs seem to be largely built on the Kill and Collect model.
Is the combat mechanic the thing which must define a game the most? Maybe it is, but I wondered what the thinkers here have to say about it. In an MMORPG you will typically engage in tens of thousands of fights until it becomes an almost rote task. Could an MMORPG work with a very simple, low importance, or summarized combat system?
If not simple, then what about combat that is very serious, and cannot be entered into lightly, but that represents a small investment of game time overall?
it absolutly does not have to be in an MMORPG.
what is possible with gaming is beyond anything that has been written in a novel or a movie and yet for decades we have been focused on a microscopic version of what we can do in gaming.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Ultimately, most all computer games have combat systems because combat is easily abstracted and implemented. It is a simple method for resolving conflicts within a game environment. The elements in combat are easily abstracted as numeric values, and easy for a computer to deal with, and simpler for a programmer to implement.
Other forms of conflict resolution aren't as simple. How does a computer arbitrate a well-thought out legal argument in a courtroom? How about buying the loyalty of the orc guard to let you attack their superior? Or encouraging a dragon to look elsewhere for victims by offering it tribute? Tricking a caravan to go the long way around with a careful placement of illusions? Role-playing is analogous to talking, with the fall-back of physical combat.
Unfortunately, it isn't easy for a computer to evaluate situations, like talking, that aren't easily translated into numbers. When exactly does the orc guard's logic switch from "I am married to the Chieftan's sister, so I am loyal" to "That's a lot of money"? This type of response is easy for a human, but much more difficult for a computer.
One of the things I frequently comment on is really based on this. Computerized RP games haven't strayed from this truth. Too difficult, too costly, cut this feature. So, the industry and community hasn't benefited from the incremental advances and ideas of other games. Players are left with games that seem stale and 'clones' of other games, but nothing 'new'. The genre doesn't grow, doesn't expand, doesn't evolve, and is threatened with extinction (to keep with the evolution theme).
I really hope that some developer will take a chance and try something beyond the simple. I don't see that spark of innovation in any of the current products in development. Hopefully, there will be something encouraging in whatever time I have left.
An example of an innovation: Infocom's Zork had exceptional natural language processing, but what game has improved on that feature? Could any game developer incorporate as good a system today? Phones are beginning to deal with voice recognition. When will some one try to combine the two -- understanding spoken input and making complex decisions from that. In a computerized RP game.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
But should it? I am wondering if an MMORPG has to have absolutely spellbinding combat. WTF is spell binding combat? Is combat really role-playing? Isn't MMORPG combat really pretty boring anyway?
MMORPGs seem to be largely built on the Kill and Collect model.
Is the combat mechanic the thing which must define a game the most? Maybe it is, but I wondered what the thinkers here have to say about it. In an MMORPG you will typically engage in tens of thousands of fights until it becomes an almost rote task. Could an MMORPG work with a very simple, low importance, or summarized combat system?
If not simple, then what about combat that is very serious, and cannot be entered into lightly, but that represents a small investment of game time overall?
it absolutly does not have to be in an MMORPG.
what is possible with gaming is beyond anything that has been written in a novel or a movie and yet for decades we have been focused on a microscopic version of what we can do in gaming.
I agree that it doesn't have to be in MMORPGs. Any details on how it could work without what we know as combat? Would rewards not be worth the risk of fighting?
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
But should it? I am wondering if an MMORPG has to have absolutely spellbinding combat. WTF is spell binding combat? Is combat really role-playing? Isn't MMORPG combat really pretty boring anyway?
MMORPGs seem to be largely built on the Kill and Collect model.
Is the combat mechanic the thing which must define a game the most? Maybe it is, but I wondered what the thinkers here have to say about it. In an MMORPG you will typically engage in tens of thousands of fights until it becomes an almost rote task. Could an MMORPG work with a very simple, low importance, or summarized combat system?
If not simple, then what about combat that is very serious, and cannot be entered into lightly, but that represents a small investment of game time overall?
it absolutly does not have to be in an MMORPG.
what is possible with gaming is beyond anything that has been written in a novel or a movie and yet for decades we have been focused on a microscopic version of what we can do in gaming.
I agree that it doesn't have to be in MMORPGs. Any details on how it could work without what we know as combat? Would rewards not be worth the risk of fighting?
Wurm Online would be an example. People can debate to the ends of the earth on the quality of that game until death and yes there is combat but as an example of just speaking about the conceptual design features (farming for example). I have hunderns if not a thousand hours in that game and I rarely ever find myself in combat.
Kerbal Space Program although its a single player game could be created with some major alterations into an MMORPG.
Farming Simulator + Trucking Simulator + a Shipping Simulator together could be created into an MMORPG.
Basically consider real life. How many things do we do in real life from baseball tournaments to just getting products shipped to a client. how much of that doesnt involve combat? a lot. ALl of it could be converted into an MMORPG game and if designed well could be just as compelling.
In kerbal as an example, I have had the same level of adrenaline and excitement and concern landing a space craft as I have in intense combat.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Some people do like playing other roleplaying roles outside of combat. Its as simple as that
It's not like those activities don't exist. They just don't define the MMORPG. They're sideshows.
Combat really isn't the main show. It was progression in the WoW era. Granted combat was the most used vehicle. Buy peoole aren't fighting just to fight. It was for levels n loot.
Obviously not true. If combat is not the main show, and levels n loot are .. then games will just have levels & loot, and no combat (e.g. Eve's raise your skill by just having an account).
The fact that 99% of all gameplay *is* combat ... is pretty undeniable evidence that combat is the main show for most of these games.
Again, combat is the main vehicle but not all quest are combat related. People played themepark MMORPG to advance. To get more levels and gear. Players will do whatever it takes to advance. Its pure combat grind or quest grind or paying to advance. Its about advancement.
If it was about combat how come people don't just go out and grind NPCs for no reason with no reward?
Again, combat is the main vehicle but not all quest are combat related.
so? Most are. Even in a shooter, sometimes you get to do something else, like finding a switch to open a door. Don't tell me that makes shooter non-combat centric.
Again, combat is the main vehicle but not all quest are combat related.
so? Most are. Even in a shooter, sometimes you get to do something else, like finding a switch to open a door. Don't tell me that makes shooter non-combat centric.
If you had an area where you picked flowers for 200 exp each that took 3 seconds for each flower vs. killing mobs for 5 exp that took 30 seconds where would the players go?
Again, combat is the main vehicle but not all quest are combat related.
so? Most are. Even in a shooter, sometimes you get to do something else, like finding a switch to open a door. Don't tell me that makes shooter non-combat centric.
If you had an area where you picked flowers for 200 exp each that took 3 seconds for each flower vs. killing mobs for 5 exp that took 30 seconds where would the players go?
another game that does not ask me to pick flowers?
Again, combat is the main vehicle but not all quest are combat related.
so? Most are. Even in a shooter, sometimes you get to do something else, like finding a switch to open a door. Don't tell me that makes shooter non-combat centric.
If you had an area where you picked flowers for 200 exp each that took 3 seconds for each flower vs. killing mobs for 5 exp that took 30 seconds where would the players go?
another game that does not ask me to pick flowers?
Just to prove my point that players don't care as much about combat but progression is king. And while usually its not flowers I think almost every themepark I have played have given me missions to pick up crap off the ground.
Comments
Should qualify that I've always been one that prefers support roles and alternative gameplay options in general as I don't actually like conflict much in games. I enjoy a good challenge, which makes me gravitate randomly into PvP games, but ultimately I'd prefer a good co-op PvE title that gives me the freedom to adopt roles that help out and support others where combat isn't a hinging factor to it all.
But I also don't think of myself as a primary market target. T_T
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Most players have never been exposed to that style of gameplay to even demand or metric they would play that way.
Retention. Well built, well rounded games hold peoples attentions longer. When I was playing WAR, for example, I enjoyed the PvP but after a while it becomes tiring. WAR didn't really offer much else in terms of alternative gameplay so when I got tired, I'd just log off. Repetition induces boredom which reduces retention, so having a diverse game can (assuming each part is well built) increase retention which increases profits.
I did add a big caveat at the end of my post in that each new sub-system (entertainment, card games, racing etc) does add a massive extra workload to the dev team so it is unrealistic to see it in an MMO and I have no expectations about seeing such things in future MMOs. Some of the smaller things (like card games) are pretty easy to implement and many MMOs do offer mini-games already (fishing, music in lotro etc) but bigger sidegames / subgames are rare.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The fact that 99% of all gameplay *is* combat ... is pretty undeniable evidence that combat is the main show for most of these games.
what is possible with gaming is beyond anything that has been written in a novel or a movie and yet for decades we have been focused on a microscopic version of what we can do in gaming.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Other forms of conflict resolution aren't as simple. How does a computer arbitrate a well-thought out legal argument in a courtroom? How about buying the loyalty of the orc guard to let you attack their superior? Or encouraging a dragon to look elsewhere for victims by offering it tribute? Tricking a caravan to go the long way around with a careful placement of illusions? Role-playing is analogous to talking, with the fall-back of physical combat.
Unfortunately, it isn't easy for a computer to evaluate situations, like talking, that aren't easily translated into numbers. When exactly does the orc guard's logic switch from "I am married to the Chieftan's sister, so I am loyal" to "That's a lot of money"? This type of response is easy for a human, but much more difficult for a computer.
One of the things I frequently comment on is really based on this. Computerized RP games haven't strayed from this truth. Too difficult, too costly, cut this feature. So, the industry and community hasn't benefited from the incremental advances and ideas of other games. Players are left with games that seem stale and 'clones' of other games, but nothing 'new'. The genre doesn't grow, doesn't expand, doesn't evolve, and is threatened with extinction (to keep with the evolution theme).
I really hope that some developer will take a chance and try something beyond the simple. I don't see that spark of innovation in any of the current products in development. Hopefully, there will be something encouraging in whatever time I have left.
An example of an innovation: Infocom's Zork had exceptional natural language processing, but what game has improved on that feature? Could any game developer incorporate as good a system today? Phones are beginning to deal with voice recognition. When will some one try to combine the two -- understanding spoken input and making complex decisions from that. In a computerized RP game.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Kerbal Space Program although its a single player game could be created with some major alterations into an MMORPG.
Farming Simulator + Trucking Simulator + a Shipping Simulator together could be created into an MMORPG.
Basically consider real life. How many things do we do in real life from baseball tournaments to just getting products shipped to a client. how much of that doesnt involve combat? a lot. ALl of it could be converted into an MMORPG game and if designed well could be just as compelling.
In kerbal as an example, I have had the same level of adrenaline and excitement and concern landing a space craft as I have in intense combat.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
If it was about combat how come people don't just go out and grind NPCs for no reason with no reward?
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."