Methinks the hardcores doth protest too much. Like closeted homosexuals, they point fingers at casuals so no one notices they themselves are the guilty party.
PvP'ers kill mmorpg's? WHAT? Have you even played any Korean mmorpg in your 12 years of existance? Do you actually believe what you type? You have 0 clue what is hurting game industry. WoW coexisted with PvP players just fine for a long time. Lineage 2 did and still does, as well as Aion, BDO, Dekaron, Silkroad, etc.
Your mmorpg experince must be close to null to say such atrocity.
PvP'ers killed unique classes and races in WoW. I really do not care about Korean mmorpg's...not that big in the West.
AC did not need PvP..neither did EQ to be great. Wow Pvp servers never had the numbers of PVE. LOTRO was based around PVE.
PvP'ers kill mmorpg's? WHAT? Have you even played any Korean mmorpg in your 12 years of existance? Do you actually believe what you type? You have 0 clue what is hurting game industry. WoW coexisted with PvP players just fine for a long time. Lineage 2 did and still does, as well as Aion, BDO, Dekaron, Silkroad, etc.
Your mmorpg experince must be close to null to say such atrocity.
PvP'ers killed unique classes and races in WoW. I really do not care about Korean mmorpg's...not that big in the West.
AC did not need PvP..neither did EQ to be great. Wow Pvp servers never had the numbers of PVE. LOTRO was based around PVE.
MMORPG'S work better as PvE.
It wasn't PvP players that changed the game. I actually like greater class diversity in general and with early WoW. It makes PvP more enjoyable in a multiplayer setting. Its developers listening to a loud portion of players complain about 1v1 situation pvp that hurts the gameplay.
Also, there are a ton of PvP servers in WoW. I think they've made up about ~45% of the overall servers, so its not like its a landslide difference. PvP is popular, and when developers learn to stop getting trolled into bad decisions, it will become even more popular.
PvP'ers kill mmorpg's? WHAT? Have you even played any Korean mmorpg in your 12 years of existance? Do you actually believe what you type? You have 0 clue what is hurting game industry. WoW coexisted with PvP players just fine for a long time. Lineage 2 did and still does, as well as Aion, BDO, Dekaron, Silkroad, etc.
Your mmorpg experince must be close to null to say such atrocity.
PvP'ers killed unique classes and races in WoW. I really do not care about Korean mmorpg's...not that big in the West.
AC did not need PvP..neither did EQ to be great. Wow Pvp servers never had the numbers of PVE. LOTRO was based around PVE.
MMORPG'S work better as PvE.
It wasn't PvP players that changed the game. I actually like greater class diversity in general and with early WoW. It makes PvP more enjoyable in a multiplayer setting. Its developers listening to a loud portion of players complain about 1v1 situation pvp that hurts the gameplay.
Also, there are a ton of PvP servers in WoW. I think they've made up about ~45% of the overall servers, so its not like its a landslide difference. PvP is popular, and when developers learn to stop getting trolled into bad decisions, it will become even more popular.
So it was not PvP'ers complaining about 1v1 PvP....it was not the PvE players.
While server numbers are close populations on those servers are not. Wow census has 909k characters on PvE and 303k on PvP. More PvE servers are medium to high while PvP has like 4 that get to high.
MMO's get dumbed down until they are shit. It's certainly not the PvP crowd that is the problem.
MMORPGs need to be well rounded in order to have high retention. They're massively-multiplayer, so you can't ignore the social elements.
You need the hardcore players - these guys and girls push the boundaries, find the bugs, run the guilds, lead the raids, organise community events, train the new people and interact with the developers. These people set the trends - trends that their friends follow.
You need the semi-hardcore players - these are the people good enough to play with the hardcores but chilled enough to interact with the casuals. They fill up the raid spots, they participate in the events, they are the "core" of the social scene. They were once casuals and some of them will become hardcore.
You need the casual players - these people are the most numerous and end up paying the bills. In my experience, casuals enjoy the full range of activities a game has to offer - solo, grouping, raiding, pvp, social, hobbies etc - its just that either a casual attitude or casual timescale can prevent them from doing some content. MMOs need the casuals, both for the money they bring and because everyone starts as a casual, if you exclude the casuals then they can't become the hardcore players.
So, developers need to decide early on what they want from their game. If they ignore the hardcore players then the social side breaks down and the game will have lower retention rates so the game has to rely on marketing and high churn rates. If you ignore the casuals, the game will remain niche and will struggle to recoup costs (assuming AAA).
As for PvP, its a feature. You can't ever say that PvPers destroy a game - it is the implementation of PvP that matters. Plenty of MMOs have both and work well. Then again, plenty of MMOs have both and one side ends up ruining the other's fun. I've played with asshat raiders as well as asshat pvpers, both have equal ability to ruin a game.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
The casuals just say: "We rule your games, because we are those who PAY for those games". Actually, those "hardcores" should be glad developers keep on adding hard/heroic/mythic modes for them.
Sorry hard to tell if sarcasm or......
I highly doubt casuals make up any form of real revenue other than on newly launched games and casual orientated games. Casuals play little and pay little, usually just bouncing from one game to the next looking for that sweet spot of little effort and big rewards...before being distracted by the next shiny object and moving on.
Hardcores remain, they play they pay and they participate in how the game develops, because they have an interest in it. How many casual "whales" do you think f2p games have? By definition a hardcore player will spend more money, because they need more things, play more, get more levels and need more stimulus.
The casuals just say: "We rule your games, because we are those who PAY for those games". Actually, those "hardcores" should be glad developers keep on adding hard/heroic/mythic modes for them.
Sorry hard to tell if sarcasm or......
I highly doubt casuals make up any form of real revenue other than on newly launched games and casual orientated games. Casuals play little and pay little, usually just bouncing from one game to the next looking for that sweet spot of little effort and big rewards...before being distracted by the next shiny object and moving on.
Hardcores remain, they play they pay and they participate in how the game develops, because they have an interest in it. How many casual "whales" do you think f2p games have? By definition a hardcore player will spend more money, because they need more things, play more, get more levels and need more stimulus.
Its a well known fact that casuals make up the bulk of income for MMOs.
Just about every AAA themepark that has released such numbers has shown that only 5-10% of the population participates in endgame activities regularly (once a month or more). That means 90% of the population are casuals.
Its also fairly well established that casuals are more likely to be whales - they have less time but often the same motivations so are happy to spend money to reduce grinding time etc. Hardcore players can afford the time to grind and avoid payment, but are also less likely to be playing f2p / p2w games.
As for sticking around, you're mixing up being a hardcore fan with being a hardcore gamer. Being a hardcore gamer is about attitude - wanting to be the best, beat everything in the game, get the best gear, best rotations etc. You can be a hardcore gamer and still gamehop, just as you can be a casual gamer and stick with a game for years. I know loads of casual gamers who are hardcore fans - for example, there are people who have been subscribed to LotRO since launch but only play a few hours a week, never raid or pvp.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
The casuals just say: "We rule your games, because we are those who PAY for those games". Actually, those "hardcores" should be glad developers keep on adding hard/heroic/mythic modes for them.
Sorry hard to tell if sarcasm or......
I highly doubt casuals make up any form of real revenue other than on newly launched games and casual orientated games. Casuals play little and pay little, usually just bouncing from one game to the next looking for that sweet spot of little effort and big rewards...before being distracted by the next shiny object and moving on.
Hardcores remain, they play they pay and they participate in how the game develops, because they have an interest in it. How many casual "whales" do you think f2p games have? By definition a hardcore player will spend more money, because they need more things, play more, get more levels and need more stimulus.
That and also if it weren't for those no lifers who payed monthly fees, played MMOs all day, and were patient enough to wait though all the time consumption and bugs older slower computers had there wouldn't be any games for casuals. Casuals were out of old games and computers by default in most cases due to the time commitment that computers required in general.
The casuals just say: "We rule your games, because we are those who PAY for those games". Actually, those "hardcores" should be glad developers keep on adding hard/heroic/mythic modes for them.
Sorry hard to tell if sarcasm or......
I highly doubt casuals make up any form of real revenue other than on newly launched games and casual orientated games. Casuals play little and pay little, usually just bouncing from one game to the next looking for that sweet spot of little effort and big rewards...before being distracted by the next shiny object and moving on.
Hardcores remain, they play they pay and they participate in how the game develops, because they have an interest in it. How many casual "whales" do you think f2p games have? By definition a hardcore player will spend more money, because they need more things, play more, get more levels and need more stimulus.
You are completely wrong here.
Being 'casual' has absolutely NOTHING to do with your play time. You can be casual and play 40+ hours a day, just as you can be hardcore and only log in for raids and to prepare for raids.
If you are looking at an eastern p2w model like nexon games, then sure, its the hardcore that buys the most. but if you are looking at western games...you think the hardcore players are the ones buying the sparkle ponies when they can just show off their mythic raid mount instead? You think its the hardcore buying all the housing fluff that dominates the eq2 store?
And finally:
CASUALS (in general) DO NOT WANT LITTLE EFFORT AND BIG REWARDS You have the wrong set of players there. Casuals do often want rewards to match their effort (which is often substantial, just in different ways than raiding), which very few games do a good job of delivering on.
The casuals just say: "We rule your games, because we are those who PAY for those games". Actually, those "hardcores" should be glad developers keep on adding hard/heroic/mythic modes for them.
Sorry hard to tell if sarcasm or......
I highly doubt casuals make up any form of real revenue other than on newly launched games and casual orientated games. Casuals play little and pay little, usually just bouncing from one game to the next looking for that sweet spot of little effort and big rewards...before being distracted by the next shiny object and moving on.
Hardcores remain, they play they pay and they participate in how the game develops, because they have an interest in it. How many casual "whales" do you think f2p games have? By definition a hardcore player will spend more money, because they need more things, play more, get more levels and need more stimulus.
You are completely wrong here.
Being 'casual' has absolutely NOTHING to do with your play time. You can be casual and play 40+ hours a day, just as you can be hardcore and only log in for raids and to prepare for raids.
If you are looking at an eastern p2w model like nexon games, then sure, its the hardcore that buys the most. but if you are looking at western games...you think the hardcore players are the ones buying the sparkle ponies when they can just show off their mythic raid mount instead? You think its the hardcore buying all the housing fluff that dominates the eq2 store?
And finally:
CASUALS (in general) DO NOT WANT LITTLE EFFORT AND BIG REWARDS You have the wrong set of players there. Casuals do often want rewards to match their effort (which is often substantial, just in different ways than raiding), which very few games do a good job of delivering on.
I would argue against that logic. Someone who invests large quantities of their time in something is hardcore weather they are just soloing or not IMO. When I played EQ it was almost like a job for me. I soloed most of the time and invested an insane amount of time into leveling up and exploring the different areas of the game. It was a fairly exhausting experience even though it was fun. Someone who invests small amounts of time into something is not hard core even they are an endgame raider IMO. It's more like a hobby and that's what most MMOs are to people now. They don't really take much out of you because you don't really need to invest much.
The casuals just say: "We rule your games, because we are those who PAY for those games". Actually, those "hardcores" should be glad developers keep on adding hard/heroic/mythic modes for them.
Sorry hard to tell if sarcasm or......
I highly doubt casuals make up any form of real revenue other than on newly launched games and casual orientated games. Casuals play little and pay little, usually just bouncing from one game to the next looking for that sweet spot of little effort and big rewards...before being distracted by the next shiny object and moving on.
Hardcores remain, they play they pay and they participate in how the game develops, because they have an interest in it. How many casual "whales" do you think f2p games have? By definition a hardcore player will spend more money, because they need more things, play more, get more levels and need more stimulus.
You are completely wrong here.
Being 'casual' has absolutely NOTHING to do with your play time. You can be casual and play 40+ hours a day, just as you can be hardcore and only log in for raids and to prepare for raids.
If you are looking at an eastern p2w model like nexon games, then sure, its the hardcore that buys the most. but if you are looking at western games...you think the hardcore players are the ones buying the sparkle ponies when they can just show off their mythic raid mount instead? You think its the hardcore buying all the housing fluff that dominates the eq2 store?
And finally:
CASUALS (in general) DO NOT WANT LITTLE EFFORT AND BIG REWARDS You have the wrong set of players there. Casuals do often want rewards to match their effort (which is often substantial, just in different ways than raiding), which very few games do a good job of delivering on.
I would argue against that logic. Someone who invests large quantities of their time in something is hardcore weather they are just soloing or not IMO. When I played EQ it was almost like a job for me. I soloed most of the time and invested an insane amount of time into leveling up and exploring the different areas of the game. It was a fairly exhausting experience even though it was fun. Someone who invests small amounts of time into something is not hard core even they are an endgame raider IMO. It's more like a hobby and that's what most MMOs are to people now. They don't really take much out of you because you don't really need to invest much.
I was never once considered hardcore in EQ, EQ2, or WoW and I had phases of my life where I was a 'no lifer' who would play 40+ hours a week. Its a mind set, not a time played thing.
There are definitely some people that want to be hardcore but can't invest the time some games require, but you could play 16 hours a day and still be casual. Its all in how you approach your time.
Your definition of casual may be different, but when people say the majority of people that play MMORPGs are casuals that doesnt mean the majority of people only play a couple times a week, it means the majority of players arent concerned with min/maxing, getting the fastest exp possible, and killing raid bosses on the highest difficulty when they are still current. Hardcore people try to beat the game, casuals just want to enjoy it.
Casuals definitely changed the MMORPG landscape. Unfortunately now the groups that wanted MMORPGs had to settle for games like WoW which allowed a huge step forward towards interactivity but moved away from the type of game they enjoyed playing. As WoW became more casual and less complex to fit its changing playerbase it changed what an MMO was. Now when games move forward with technology and say 'hey this is what you wanted all along', casual players seem confused and aggressive towards a shift away from their constructed MMO paradigm. It's sad but understandable. What isn't nice though is the hatred casual players give towards more complex MMORPGs. There is room for more types of MMO than the major few (WoW, BDO, SWTOR, GW2, ESO & TERA).
Bottom line: 'Casuals' as they were back in the 2000s dont want a stupid treadmill gear grind with a mindless tiered raid/ilevel system. thats what MMORPGs mostly are now.
Its the 'content locusts' that are more to blame. They devour content faster than devs can put it out, so we need things like structured grinds over daily quest repetition and new gear ilevels every raid.
Bottom line: 'Casuals' as they were back in the 2000s dont want a stupid treadmill gear grind with a mindless tiered raid/ilevel system. thats what MMORPGs mostly are now.
Its the 'content locusts' that are more to blame. They devour content faster than devs can put it out, so we need things like structured grinds over daily quest repetition and new gear ilevels every raid.
Why would you say that?
For a casual player, MMORPGs aren't raids.
For a casual player, MMORPGs are the solo content prior to hitting max level. (You know, the most casual-friendly content MMORPGs tend to have?)
Casual players aren't even getting to the brutal part of the grind.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Bottom line: 'Casuals' as they were back in the 2000s dont want a stupid treadmill gear grind with a mindless tiered raid/ilevel system. thats what MMORPGs mostly are now.
Its the 'content locusts' that are more to blame. They devour content faster than devs can put it out, so we need things like structured grinds over daily quest repetition and new gear ilevels every raid.
Why would you say that?
For a casual player, MMORPGs aren't raids.
For a casual player, MMORPGs are the solo content prior to hitting max level. (You know, the most casual-friendly content MMORPGs tend to have?)
Casual players aren't even getting to the brutal part of the grind.
Casual players also like group content and maybe even lower tier raids. I don't know where this asinine notion is that casual players just want to solo and pet level 1 critters all day. I led 10 man raid during wotlk. We made it to Yogg Saron 10 man normal. Got halfway through ICC. But outside of raiding the game became a drag. Do the daily dungeon run. do icecrown dailies. log in, check things off, log out. We didn't want to push ourselves for hard mode ulduar or try to recruit for 25 raids, but we also had no content to do outside of raids that was rewarding. People act like Cataclysm was the turning point in WoW's popularity, but it was really the latter portion of wotlk where people grew impatient and started leaving. Except the hardcore, because they were focused on some great raids at the time.
But to your point... The 'content locusts' take content that might take a casual player a month to do and do it in 3 days. then they will sit and demand more content. So to pacify them the daily grind is born. Also, they are given a new tier of gear to work towards, only slightly better than their current gear. it is more cost efficient to make things like daily grinds.
Bottom line: 'Casuals' as they were back in the 2000s dont want a stupid treadmill gear grind with a mindless tiered raid/ilevel system. thats what MMORPGs mostly are now.
Its the 'content locusts' that are more to blame. They devour content faster than devs can put it out, so we need things like structured grinds over daily quest repetition and new gear ilevels every raid.
Why would you say that?
For a casual player, MMORPGs aren't raids.
For a casual player, MMORPGs are the solo content prior to hitting max level. (You know, the most casual-friendly content MMORPGs tend to have?)
Casual players aren't even getting to the brutal part of the grind.
But the casuals are the ones who demand access to the raids. Later they want changes: Less mobs/respawns, 3 bosses, 15 minutes runs, and participation currency to buy items they lazy devs and their RNG tool system cheated them out of.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Bottom line: 'Casuals' as they were back in the 2000s dont want a stupid treadmill gear grind with a mindless tiered raid/ilevel system. thats what MMORPGs mostly are now.
Its the 'content locusts' that are more to blame. They devour content faster than devs can put it out, so we need things like structured grinds over daily quest repetition and new gear ilevels every raid.
Why would you say that?
For a casual player, MMORPGs aren't raids.
For a casual player, MMORPGs are the solo content prior to hitting max level. (You know, the most casual-friendly content MMORPGs tend to have?)
Casual players aren't even getting to the brutal part of the grind.
But the casuals are the ones who demand access to the raids. Later they want changes: Less mobs/respawns, 3 bosses, 15 minutes runs, and participation currency to buy items they lazy devs and their RNG tool system cheated them out of.
Yer full of shit.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Bottom line: 'Casuals' as they were back in the 2000s dont want a stupid treadmill gear grind with a mindless tiered raid/ilevel system. thats what MMORPGs mostly are now.
Its the 'content locusts' that are more to blame. They devour content faster than devs can put it out, so we need things like structured grinds over daily quest repetition and new gear ilevels every raid.
Why would you say that?
For a casual player, MMORPGs aren't raids.
For a casual player, MMORPGs are the solo content prior to hitting max level. (You know, the most casual-friendly content MMORPGs tend to have?)
Casual players aren't even getting to the brutal part of the grind.
But the casuals are the ones who demand access to the raids. Later they want changes: Less mobs/respawns, 3 bosses, 15 minutes runs, and participation currency to buy items they lazy devs and their RNG tool system cheated them out of.
Yer full of shit.
It is my opinion. It is ok to have content for those who want to spend a little bit of time in a game and for those who want to spend a lot of time. If someone can't/won't do the big time sink content, they accept it and not ask for it to be changed just for them. That is my point of view. Doesn't matter if anyone doesn't like it.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
The casuals just say: "We rule your games, because we are those who PAY for those games". Actually, those "hardcores" should be glad developers keep on adding hard/heroic/mythic modes for them.
Sorry hard to tell if sarcasm or......
I highly doubt casuals make up any form of real revenue other than on newly launched games and casual orientated games. Casuals play little and pay little, usually just bouncing from one game to the next looking for that sweet spot of little effort and big rewards...before being distracted by the next shiny object and moving on.
Hardcores remain, they play they pay and they participate in how the game develops, because they have an interest in it. How many casual "whales" do you think f2p games have? By definition a hardcore player will spend more money, because they need more things, play more, get more levels and need more stimulus.
You are completely wrong here.
Being 'casual' has absolutely NOTHING to do with your play time. You can be casual and play 40+ hours a day, just as you can be hardcore and only log in for raids and to prepare for raids.
If you are looking at an eastern p2w model like nexon games, then sure, its the hardcore that buys the most. but if you are looking at western games...you think the hardcore players are the ones buying the sparkle ponies when they can just show off their mythic raid mount instead? You think its the hardcore buying all the housing fluff that dominates the eq2 store?
And finally:
CASUALS (in general) DO NOT WANT LITTLE EFFORT AND BIG REWARDS You have the wrong set of players there. Casuals do often want rewards to match their effort (which is often substantial, just in different ways than raiding), which very few games do a good job of delivering on.
I would argue against that logic. Someone who invests large quantities of their time in something is hardcore weather they are just soloing or not IMO. When I played EQ it was almost like a job for me. I soloed most of the time and invested an insane amount of time into leveling up and exploring the different areas of the game. It was a fairly exhausting experience even though it was fun. Someone who invests small amounts of time into something is not hard core even they are an endgame raider IMO. It's more like a hobby and that's what most MMOs are to people now. They don't really take much out of you because you don't really need to invest much.
I was never once considered hardcore in EQ, EQ2, or WoW and I had phases of my life where I was a 'no lifer' who would play 40+ hours a week. Its a mind set, not a time played thing.
There are definitely some people that want to be hardcore but can't invest the time some games require, but you could play 16 hours a day and still be casual. Its all in how you approach your time.
Your definition of casual may be different, but when people say the majority of people that play MMORPGs are casuals that doesnt mean the majority of people only play a couple times a week, it means the majority of players arent concerned with min/maxing, getting the fastest exp possible, and killing raid bosses on the highest difficulty when they are still current. Hardcore people try to beat the game, casuals just want to enjoy it.
It's true you could play EQ casually in a sense, but it would take an even longer time to get to max level then it already did.
As I said I feel required time investiture whats sets hardcore and casual apart. It's true you could spend all day playing games today, but you would be finished quite a bit faster and there would be no point. In a game like EQ casuals would have given up in most cases while leveling their character in small increments.
A game like EQ was fairly demanding in terms of commitment and it was often a draining experience. Those are the type of things casuals want to avoid. It doesn't matter if it's solo, group, or raid.
Comments
PvPers? Well they are never happy anyway
AC did not need PvP..neither did EQ to be great. Wow Pvp servers never had the numbers of PVE. LOTRO was based around PVE.
MMORPG'S work better as PvE.
Also, there are a ton of PvP servers in WoW. I think they've made up about ~45% of the overall servers, so its not like its a landslide difference. PvP is popular, and when developers learn to stop getting trolled into bad decisions, it will become even more popular.
While server numbers are close populations on those servers are not. Wow census has 909k characters on PvE and 303k on PvP. More PvE servers are medium to high while PvP has like 4 that get to high.
It's certainly not the PvP crowd that is the problem.
You need the hardcore players - these guys and girls push the boundaries, find the bugs, run the guilds, lead the raids, organise community events, train the new people and interact with the developers. These people set the trends - trends that their friends follow.
You need the semi-hardcore players - these are the people good enough to play with the hardcores but chilled enough to interact with the casuals. They fill up the raid spots, they participate in the events, they are the "core" of the social scene. They were once casuals and some of them will become hardcore.
You need the casual players - these people are the most numerous and end up paying the bills. In my experience, casuals enjoy the full range of activities a game has to offer - solo, grouping, raiding, pvp, social, hobbies etc - its just that either a casual attitude or casual timescale can prevent them from doing some content. MMOs need the casuals, both for the money they bring and because everyone starts as a casual, if you exclude the casuals then they can't become the hardcore players.
So, developers need to decide early on what they want from their game. If they ignore the hardcore players then the social side breaks down and the game will have lower retention rates so the game has to rely on marketing and high churn rates. If you ignore the casuals, the game will remain niche and will struggle to recoup costs (assuming AAA).
As for PvP, its a feature. You can't ever say that PvPers destroy a game - it is the implementation of PvP that matters. Plenty of MMOs have both and work well. Then again, plenty of MMOs have both and one side ends up ruining the other's fun. I've played with asshat raiders as well as asshat pvpers, both have equal ability to ruin a game.
I highly doubt casuals make up any form of real revenue other than on newly launched games and casual orientated games. Casuals play little and pay little, usually just bouncing from one game to the next looking for that sweet spot of little effort and big rewards...before being distracted by the next shiny object and moving on.
Hardcores remain, they play they pay and they participate in how the game develops, because they have an interest in it. How many casual "whales" do you think f2p games have? By definition a hardcore player will spend more money, because they need more things, play more, get more levels and need more stimulus.
Since when does Hardcore/Casual equate to your interest in a game? You can be highly interested in a game but not want to be a "pro" player.
Some of you need to get hardcore with your common sense.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Just about every AAA themepark that has released such numbers has shown that only 5-10% of the population participates in endgame activities regularly (once a month or more). That means 90% of the population are casuals.
Its also fairly well established that casuals are more likely to be whales - they have less time but often the same motivations so are happy to spend money to reduce grinding time etc. Hardcore players can afford the time to grind and avoid payment, but are also less likely to be playing f2p / p2w games.
As for sticking around, you're mixing up being a hardcore fan with being a hardcore gamer. Being a hardcore gamer is about attitude - wanting to be the best, beat everything in the game, get the best gear, best rotations etc. You can be a hardcore gamer and still gamehop, just as you can be a casual gamer and stick with a game for years. I know loads of casual gamers who are hardcore fans - for example, there are people who have been subscribed to LotRO since launch but only play a few hours a week, never raid or pvp.
Being 'casual' has absolutely NOTHING to do with your play time. You can be casual and play 40+ hours a day, just as you can be hardcore and only log in for raids and to prepare for raids.
If you are looking at an eastern p2w model like nexon games, then sure, its the hardcore that buys the most. but if you are looking at western games...you think the hardcore players are the ones buying the sparkle ponies when they can just show off their mythic raid mount instead? You think its the hardcore buying all the housing fluff that dominates the eq2 store?
And finally:
CASUALS (in general) DO NOT WANT LITTLE EFFORT AND BIG REWARDS
You have the wrong set of players there. Casuals do often want rewards to match their effort (which is often substantial, just in different ways than raiding), which very few games do a good job of delivering on.
There are definitely some people that want to be hardcore but can't invest the time some games require, but you could play 16 hours a day and still be casual. Its all in how you approach your time.
Your definition of casual may be different, but when people say the majority of people that play MMORPGs are casuals that doesnt mean the majority of people only play a couple times a week, it means the majority of players arent concerned with min/maxing, getting the fastest exp possible, and killing raid bosses on the highest difficulty when they are still current. Hardcore people try to beat the game, casuals just want to enjoy it.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Bottom line:
'Casuals' as they were back in the 2000s dont want a stupid treadmill gear grind with a mindless tiered raid/ilevel system. thats what MMORPGs mostly are now.
Its the 'content locusts' that are more to blame. They devour content faster than devs can put it out, so we need things like structured grinds over daily quest repetition and new gear ilevels every raid.
- For a casual player, MMORPGs aren't raids.
- For a casual player, MMORPGs are the solo content prior to hitting max level. (You know, the most casual-friendly content MMORPGs tend to have?)
Casual players aren't even getting to the brutal part of the grind."What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I don't know where this asinine notion is that casual players just want to solo and pet level 1 critters all day. I led 10 man raid during wotlk. We made it to Yogg Saron 10 man normal. Got halfway through ICC. But outside of raiding the game became a drag. Do the daily dungeon run. do icecrown dailies. log in, check things off, log out. We didn't want to push ourselves for hard mode ulduar or try to recruit for 25 raids, but we also had no content to do outside of raids that was rewarding. People act like Cataclysm was the turning point in WoW's popularity, but it was really the latter portion of wotlk where people grew impatient and started leaving. Except the hardcore, because they were focused on some great raids at the time.
But to your point...
The 'content locusts' take content that might take a casual player a month to do and do it in 3 days. then they will sit and demand more content. So to pacify them the daily grind is born. Also, they are given a new tier of gear to work towards, only slightly better than their current gear. it is more cost efficient to make things like daily grinds.
But the casuals are the ones who demand access to the raids. Later they want changes: Less mobs/respawns, 3 bosses, 15 minutes runs, and participation currency to buy items they lazy devs and their RNG tool system cheated them out of.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
It is my opinion. It is ok to have content for those who want to spend a little bit of time in a game and for those who want to spend a lot of time. If someone can't/won't do the big time sink content, they accept it and not ask for it to be changed just for them. That is my point of view. Doesn't matter if anyone doesn't like it.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
As I said I feel required time investiture whats sets hardcore and casual apart. It's true you could spend all day playing games today, but you would be finished quite a bit faster and there would be no point. In a game like EQ casuals would have given up in most cases while leveling their character in small increments.
A game like EQ was fairly demanding in terms of commitment and it was often a draining experience. Those are the type of things casuals want to avoid. It doesn't matter if it's solo, group, or raid.