Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
The only way to go is forward!
Consuetudo
Member UncommonPosts: 191
A complicated concept. It starts with our recognition of something we don't like, viewing it to have corrupted an old way which we consider to be better. Responding to our wishes, a new product is delivered that restores the old way; now, however, we miss the benefits of the new way and view it as a missed-chance to try to emulate the rudimentary mode of the past.
Let's take fast travel. Arguments for why modern MMOs are terrible aside, when I am actually playing a game, I surely love being able to quickly travel from point A to B. It makes thing just that much better. And since I know that fast travel is a thing, if the game I'm playing didn't have it, then I would only dread having to spend precious minutes running back to the town once I cleared the dungeon. Let me put it this way: my mind is tainted with an awareness of the new concept that I cannot unlearn, an efficient newness that will forever shatter whatever appreciation I might have had for the old way.
To create a new game, now, and lack something like fast travel, would in my mind mark you as being a tedious game. The present IS fast travel, it is something which I know and whose efficiency I depend on.
Simply put, you cannot go back. You can only go forward. Fast travel alone doesn't shatter a game: I use it often and I love it. Surely it is something else.
A great game will embrace, not reject, the innovations of modernity, but it will somehow implement them, build upon them, and deliver a stunning experience in such a way that is forward-looking in its entire.
Let's take fast travel. Arguments for why modern MMOs are terrible aside, when I am actually playing a game, I surely love being able to quickly travel from point A to B. It makes thing just that much better. And since I know that fast travel is a thing, if the game I'm playing didn't have it, then I would only dread having to spend precious minutes running back to the town once I cleared the dungeon. Let me put it this way: my mind is tainted with an awareness of the new concept that I cannot unlearn, an efficient newness that will forever shatter whatever appreciation I might have had for the old way.
To create a new game, now, and lack something like fast travel, would in my mind mark you as being a tedious game. The present IS fast travel, it is something which I know and whose efficiency I depend on.
Simply put, you cannot go back. You can only go forward. Fast travel alone doesn't shatter a game: I use it often and I love it. Surely it is something else.
A great game will embrace, not reject, the innovations of modernity, but it will somehow implement them, build upon them, and deliver a stunning experience in such a way that is forward-looking in its entire.
Comments
For instance, I still occasionally play Baldur's Gate II, but almost every time it loads up I'm reminded of how far we've come in the genre, even if the stories being told these days are getting more and more pathetic.
As much as I love the idea of EVE circa 2007, there's been so many functionally great upgrades to the UI and overall convenience of the game, that I would hate actually playing that version of the game again. People who start playing EVE this year, simply have no clue how much you had to fight the UI and the game just to get it do what it does by default these days.
That would be a good topic for a poll: "Do you ever eat pizza that's still frozen?"
On topic:
I don't like straight-up, anywhere fast travel(think GW2). I like having certain travel locations. If there's going to be fast travel I prefer it be some type of in-game feature/mechanic that blends into the world.
ESO does a fairly decent job with fast travel. You have to go to a shrine to travel from there to another shrine. Also, there are tons of reasons to travel the world by foot -- plenty to discover. Though, they probably did have way too many shrines too close together, overall.
I also really liked the EQ-style wizard spires/druid rings as portal centers. Their boat system was a nightmare, but the teleport system was great. Note that this wasn't fast-travel, but done through player-classes that had teleport spells.
Though I liked the ESO version, I feel fast-travel it should be more limiting than ESO's. A nice mix of the two games I mentioned would be ideal to me -- somewhere in the middle.
I really liked the EQ style best, but sometimes it was pretty hard to get teleported, so there needs to be a few major fast-travel points(just not too many).
A good example of this is Pillars of Eternity and Wasteland 2. These types of old-school games with updated quality of life systems seem to be making a comeback of sorts. I am enjoying the renaissance immensely (currently losing myself in PoE all over again).
Fast travel is a concept, but it's implementation is what determines whether it is good or not. As a concept, fast travel has the following:
Pros:
- Reduces downtime - player spends more time "doing things"
- Avoids tedium - running back and forth can be boring
Cons:I'm sure you guys have other opinions, but this is how I view it. So, with the concept of fast travel you then have to look at the specific implementation which varies game to game. Does the implementation fit with the goals of the game?
With a game like lotro, you can only fast travel from hub to hub and a lot of fast travel used to take time to unlock (either through quests or reputation grinds), so the result was players were kinda of forced to take the long way. This resulted in the world feeling big and open and players having time to socialise whilst travelling (two of the goals of the game) but, after a person had been playing / grinding long enough, the fast travels opened up more so you could eventually avoid some of the boring travel. Basically, the implementation matched the goals of the game.
Same sort of thing with WAR. Could only fast travel (fly) from main hubs in each zone, everything else was manual travel by mount. This meant it was quite slow to get around. If you were in the middle of one pvp zone but needed to get to the middle of another, it could take 5+ minutes to ride back to hub, fast travel, the ride again to the fight. Some viewed this as tedious, but it prevented the zerg from moving about too quickly so it had an actual purpose.
Compare this to SW:TOR. Whilst it didn't have insta-travel in too many places, it had taxi's everywhere! You'd only have to explore for 5 or 10 minutes and you'd find a new taxi station. It meant the whole game felt a bit like a platformer - get taxi to hub, clear 5 quests around that hub, get taxi to next hub. It made the already small worlds feel tiny and disconnected.
You can apply this reasoning to all the old school concepts people talk about. We don't want the old implementations - we've learnt a lot since the old days - but we do want some of the old concepts brought back. Something like the profession system from SWG. As a concept it was great - 32 professions that you could mix and match how you wanted. So much variety, so many combinations, it really allowed players to find something they felt was right. As an implementation, SWG leaves a lot to be desired - massive imbalances on the combat side, lack of purpose for a lot of them etc.
So, looking forward, we want the old concept (class freedom and variety) with a modern implementation (balance, purpose, usefulness etc).
Doesn't always work. Wildstar tried it - old school 40man raids with a modern implementation (action combat), but it was worth trying.
To those of us who like immersing themselves in "virtual worlds", anything that shrinks or speeds-up the world is bad news.
We don't play because we're trying to progress most efficiently, we play because we actually enjoy playing.
To us, the character progress is a by-product of that enjoyable game play, not the other way around...
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
And oh, i don't play games to socialize. If I want to socialize, i go to a chatroom.
If the journey is a fun experience in its own right then there would be no need to avoid portions of it.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
If the developer is designing their game for solo players like you who want to get in, have some fun, then move on quickly then fine, quick travel makes perfect sense. Design the game for quick player churn, make sure you are monetising them asap and your game will do well enough.
If you're designing your game for players like me who want to enjoy a game long term, play with friends, have both short-term and long-term goals and who like to socialise whilst playing the game, then leave fast travel out.
As for so many great games out there, thats your subjective opinion. I'm glad you can find so many you enjoy and want to play, I'm honestly a little jealous. Sadly, I struggle to find good games. For whatever reasons (too high standards, too fussy, too weird) I find it difficult to really find games I enjoy. Most games I buy I tend to play for a few hours but then get bored of it so stop playing. It means when I do find a game I enjoy, I want that experience to last, so I need my games (especially MMOs) to be deep, meaningful, social, long lasting as well as fun.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Why would I "ask" for anything when I can simply move onto another game? There are plenty of solo content out there, in online and off line games.
Allowing guns in medieval games, or lazers when fighting Dinasaurs, or light sabers when in the star trek universe just don't match the design and feel of the game. The same applies to fast travel.
Some games NEED fast travel. Some games are RUINED by fast travel.
Blanket statements like 'all games need fast travel' or similar arguments are just ignorant of the design decisions that go into what type of travel option(s) are available and over simplify the importance of choosing the right option for the game.
Character creation
Server choice
End credits
"Thanks for the money suckers"
I can understand it in gamey mmos with all their instant queuing, instances, solo play and everything else that constantly reminds you its just a game, not a dangerous world.
In an mmo concerned with realism where time is part of the challenge, travel involves risk and places in the world are meant to be hard to reach, fast travel is entirely out of place.
I agree you can't go back again. With the old games, gaming was new to me and I enjoyed it mostly because they were new experiences, now when I try to go back and play one of the old games I feel like it's been done already and it's time to move on.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Not what I said.
Lets say the highly explored area of the map takes 40 minutes of running to get to the edge. Inside that area there are teleportation pylons to get you where you want to instantly.
Outside that area there are none.
Once you reach 60 minutes from the center, mapping ceases. Now you are truly in the wilds.
There are low, mid, and high level areas in the explored areas. You need never leave them if you don't want to.
There are also low, mid, and high level areas in the unexplored areas. Some monsters only occur out there and while the drops aren't overall better, they are different in visual style and abilities.
Optionally teleportation pylons can be built by guilds for large amounts of time, effort, quests, etc. in areas outside the normal range.
I'm happy that checkpoint saves have returned in some games. I'm happy that turn-based rpg made a comeback. I'm happy that the doom remake went back to what made fps special in the first place. I would love to see mmorpg returning to world group content instead of just making everything possible to do solo or put all group content in an instance. There is value in returning to group roles.
I don't want pillars of eternity 2 to be an action rpg. I don't want the game to have lengthy cut-scenes. I want to be capable of customizing each character the way I want instead of some way that the developer thought was good for me. I want to micromanage every single character in the party during combat. What I really look for is the same sort of gameplay that baldur's gate gave me almost 20 years ago.
The only way forward is to make games different from what we play today. Just because something fits most modern games doesn't mean that it makes your game better.