Mastering Genji is levels and leagues away from mastering anything in a traditional chaos-shooter. It's not even close in terms of skill.
While I understand your frustration, the Spy and/or Scout from TF2 would definitely take a beef with this (also, anyone playing CS:GO). I'm not sure what you mean by "chaos-shooter," as I've not heard the term before now.
They may take a beef, but they wouldn't have a leg to stand on. I've seen gameplay from masters of both and Genji is a new level of skill in the team based shooters. Chaos-shooter is something I generated on the fly, it's the spirit of the average twitch shooter. Each player is out for himself and the battlefield is dozens of soloer's chaotically bounding around the battlefield trying to score the almighty kill.
There's nothing wrong with this, I like them, I'm just trying to keep the denigration of OW to a minimum since that's what always happens to a game that becomes popular. Once the fad permeates, it's hip to hate it.
With that said, I agree that saying OW's skill cap is low is wrong. It's the skill floor that seems lower in OW than it is in Lawbreakers. Now, Lawbreakers does have a few skills that "sticky target" or lock on, but from what I've seen of the game, there aren't nearly as many equalizing skills in Lawbreakers. You won't be running around with a sticky-target healing beam on a player in Lawbreakers, simply contributing by holding down the M1 button and staying within range (at least, from what I've seen of LB so far). As blueturtle13 said, it's more akin to the old-school Quake/UT style arena shooters than it is a hero shooter/MOBA-lite experience.
I'm not disagreeing that the skill floor is low for certain characters. If you load a match and your DPS players pick Soldier or Pharah, then you usually don't worry. On the other hand, if they choose Genji or Hanzo, then you think in the back of your mind "Man, I hope they don't suck". Some characters have a high skill floor, not just a mastery ceiling.
You mention the sticky target healing beam, and I get the feeling that you think less of the game because of it, but I have many hours in Mercy and, sure she can sticky target heal, but 50% of the player base doesn't realize she can also sticky damage boost, many also don't properly utilize her "fly to a visible player" mobility to get out of trouble or save a character in trouble.
I see far too many Mercy players standing stock still behind a Reinhardt at the begging of a match with a healing beam on, when that's absolutely the wrong choice. Instead you start the match damage boosting your DPS and swap to heals when someone gets hurt. Some characters, you almost never have to heal like Roadhog who can fully heal himself every few seconds. Some Mercy's will never swap to their pistol... I once watch a Mei freeze a Mercy's target and shoot them in the head. The Mei had one tick of life left and all Mercy had to do was swap to pistol and finish her off.
So yeah, there are some deceptively looking "low" skill floor characters in the game, but low skill floor just means "easy kill" for any decent player. A proper Mercy player, is one of the busiest damn members on a good team. They not only have to know who is hurt, whether they need healing or not, but also who everyone is shooting at and whether they need to be damaged boosted and constantly making priority based decisions based on all of that knowledge. The task prioritization skills of an epic level Mercy player will make being a rabbit herder look easy.
They may take a beef, but they wouldn't have a leg to stand on. I've seen gameplay from masters of both and Genji is a new level of skill in the team based shooters. Chaos-shooter is something I generated on the fly, it's the spirit of the average twitch shooter. Each player is out for himself and the battlefield is dozens of soloer's chaotically bounding around the battlefield trying to score the almighty kill.
There's nothing wrong with this, I like them, I'm just trying to keep the denigration of OW to a minimum since that's what always happens to a game that becomes popular. Once the fad permeates, it's hip to hate it.
I'm not disagreeing that the skill floor is low for certain characters. If you load a match and your DPS players pick Soldier or Pharah, then you usually don't worry. On the other hand, if they choose Genji or Hanzo, then you think in the back of your mind "Man, I hope they don't suck". Some characters have a high skill floor, not just a mastery ceiling.
You mention the sticky target healing beam, and I get the feeling that you think less of the game because of it, but I have many hours in Mercy and, sure she can sticky target heal, but 50% of the player base doesn't realize she can also sticky damage boost, many also don't properly utilize her "fly to a visible player" mobility to get out of trouble or save a character in trouble.
I see far too many Mercy players standing stock still behind a Reinhardt at the begging of a match with a healing beam on, when that's absolutely the wrong choice. Instead you start the match damage boosting your DPS and swap to heals when someone gets hurt. Some characters, you almost never have to heal like Roadhog who can fully heal himself every few seconds. Some Mercy's will never swap to their pistol... I once watch a Mei freeze a Mercy's target and shoot them in the head. The Mei had one tick of life left and all Mercy had to do was swap to pistol and finish her off.
So yeah, there are some deceptively looking "low" skill floor characters in the game, but low skill floor just means "easy kill" for any decent player. A proper Mercy player, is one of the busiest damn members on a good team. They not only have to know who is hurt, whether they need healing or not, but also who everyone is shooting at and whether they need to be damaged boosted and constantly making priority based decisions based on all of that knowledge. The task prioritization skills of an epic level Mercy player will make being a rabbit herder look easy.
Again, though, the Mercy example is an example of a player not fully understanding the hero, not a case of their not having the necessary skills (in the traditional sense) to utilize her effectively. It's a knowledge problem more than a skill problem.
The Spy is an example of a class more akin to OW's in that you really want to coordinate with your team to be most effective. He has a lot of "skills" that disable defensive positions and/or assassinate key members of your team in the same way that OW does. It is, admittedly, less skill-based than it is situational awareness and coordination, which is one of the key reasons I cited the example.
I don't think less of OW because of Mercy's healing beam; on the contrary, I thoroughly enjoyed TF2 and a good Medic (to whom Mercy is very closely related) who knew when to hide behind that Heavy and heal and when to pull out the Needlegun or Bone Saw and protect that Heavy's/Engineer/Sniper/what-have-you's ass (being in the unique position to constantly scan the backlines for Spies or flanking Scouts/Pyros/etc.). It just takes less twitch skill to utilize her effectively than hitscan or projectile weapons without abilities that equalize players (which OW definitely has more of than does LB from the looks of gameplay trailers and class explanations).
Additionally, while you submit the Scout "doesn't have a leg to stand on," consider he has no ability to reflect incoming fire back onto attackers (Genji), nor does he have a teleport or rewind (Tracer), but instead simply relies on footspeed and a double jump to avoid enemy fire. It's hard to make the case that it takes more traditional skill to be effective with a character that has all the detriments (low health pool, close-range weaponry) of those two OW characters while failing to enjoy the more effective defensive abilities Tracer and Genji have (EDIT- note that the Scout's only defensive "skill," as far as I know/remember, comes from drinking cola that makes him invuln for a short time at the cost of his speed and ability to attack players and interact with objectives).
Again, though, the Mercy example is an example of a player not fully understanding the hero, not a case of their not having the necessary skills (in the traditional sense) to utilize her effectively. It's a knowledge problem more than a skill problem.
The Spy is an example of a class more akin to OW's in that you really want to coordinate with your team to be most effective. He has a lot of "skills" that disable defensive positions and/or assassinate key members of your team in the same way that OW does. It is, admittedly, less skill-based than it is situational awareness and coordination, which is one of the key reasons I cited the example.
I don't think less of OW because of Mercy's healing beam; on the contrary, I thoroughly enjoyed TF2 and a good Medic (to whom Mercy is very closely related) who knew when to hide behind that Heavy and heal and when to pull out the Needlegun or Bone Saw and protect that Heavy's/Engineer/Sniper/what-have-you's ass (being in the unique position to constantly scan the backlines for Spies or flanking Scouts/Pyros/etc.). It just takes less twitch skill to utilize her effectively than hitscan or projectile weapons without abilities that equalize players (which OW definitely has more of than does LB from the looks of gameplay trailers and class explanations).
Additionally, while you submit the Scout "doesn't have a leg to stand on," consider he has no ability to reflect incoming fire back onto attackers (Genji), nor does he have a teleport or rewind (Tracer), but instead simply relies on footspeed and a double jump to avoid enemy fire. It's hard to make the case that it takes more traditional skill to be effective with a character that has all the detriments (low health pool, close-range weaponry) of those two OW characters while failing to enjoy the more effective defensive abilities Tracer and Genji have (EDIT- note that the Scout's only defensive "skill," as far as I know/remember, comes from drinking cola that makes him invuln for a short time at the cost of his speed and ability to attack players and interact with objectives).
But we digress.
There are quite a bit of similarities with TF2, that's for certain. You do a good job of pointing them out and making a solid case.
We do digress, but thanks for the spirited conversation. Makes the forums thoroughly fun!
There are quite a bit of similarities with TF2, that's for certain. You do a good job of pointing them out and making a solid case.
We do digress, but thanks for the spirited conversation. Makes the forums thoroughly fun!
I enjoy a good debate, that's for sure. And to highlight: I understand your frustration with folks writing the game off wholesale as "casual," as I can definitely see that its initial accessibility does not preempt the ability for the game to reward high levels of skill. As with many Blizzard titles, its a case of "easy to learn, difficult to master." It just seems to me, from what I've read and seen, that LB sports a higher individual skill cap (speaking strictly in terms of twitch skills) than does OW.
Blizzard is nothing if not masters of creating deceptively deep games with learning curves as smooth as butter.
Pretty silly if you ask me to review a game before its progression (ranked play) is out.
I saw the reviewer is baffled by the question "why isn't ranked ready for a game that plans to be an esport".
Well the answer is really simple to be honest. They did have ranked play, few months ago even in beta. However, nobody liked it and they went back to the drawing board.
Judging by the PTR ranked play they have right now I'm actually surprised what they came up with in such a short time. It's a completely new system...
And from the looks of it, that's not final either. They are going to change some things before the official launch later this month.
I'm sorry but people have become so spoiled with free games....buying a game was part of the excitement of not knowing what you're getting into. It's of course not everyone can easily access $50...but it's like anything else in life. You work for it and save for it and the buy is that much more meaningful to you, even if the game sucked.
Looking at the uptick - even in custom matches, and the absurd hit boxes, I don't see how people can honestly say this should be seriously considered a competitive game. Does it have the makings? Sure. The problem is with how it's been coded imo.
You may say 12 maps is a lot, but be real again - a lot of the maps are simply ignored for the direct A-B route that the objectives usually call for, making the maps feel repetitive very quickly. Also, same game modes over and over with little diversity is killing me right now.
Sure it's a decent game. The progression is decent but you will rarely feel rewarded - you're not going to own a lot of loot but will still get a bunch of duplicated that might as well be rewarding you with Gamestop pricing for turn ins.
Blizzard is one of those golden child companies that can do no wrong these days. I won't forget the dance studio, or the two main cities for WoD, or the non-CGI ending to SC2 trilogy - not to mention the cash shop with a sub game... - Blizzard is starting to lack on solid content and simply doll up stuff you can find else where. It's TF3 after all this time to re-invent the wheel and make something special - don't believe the Overhype.
I'll probably give the game a try but in the end it's still an FPS.
Still wanting and waiting for an esports friendly battle ground style game that plays more like an mmo with diverse classes, lots of abilities to use and choose from and the panned out 3rd person view, maybe a 10 hour pve story that is optional but no restriction on skills or resources from the start in pvp play.
I'll probably give the game a try but in the end it's still an FPS.
Still wanting and waiting for an esports friendly battle ground style game that plays more like an mmo with diverse classes, lots of abilities to use and choose from and the panned out 3rd person view, maybe a 10 hour pve story that is optional but no restriction on skills or resources from the start in pvp play.
Comments
There's nothing wrong with this, I like them, I'm just trying to keep the denigration of OW to a minimum since that's what always happens to a game that becomes popular. Once the fad permeates, it's hip to hate it.
I'm not disagreeing that the skill floor is low for certain characters. If you load a match and your DPS players pick Soldier or Pharah, then you usually don't worry. On the other hand, if they choose Genji or Hanzo, then you think in the back of your mind "Man, I hope they don't suck". Some characters have a high skill floor, not just a mastery ceiling.
You mention the sticky target healing beam, and I get the feeling that you think less of the game because of it, but I have many hours in Mercy and, sure she can sticky target heal, but 50% of the player base doesn't realize she can also sticky damage boost, many also don't properly utilize her "fly to a visible player" mobility to get out of trouble or save a character in trouble.
I see far too many Mercy players standing stock still behind a Reinhardt at the begging of a match with a healing beam on, when that's absolutely the wrong choice. Instead you start the match damage boosting your DPS and swap to heals when someone gets hurt. Some characters, you almost never have to heal like Roadhog who can fully heal himself every few seconds. Some Mercy's will never swap to their pistol... I once watch a Mei freeze a Mercy's target and shoot them in the head. The Mei had one tick of life left and all Mercy had to do was swap to pistol and finish her off.
So yeah, there are some deceptively looking "low" skill floor characters in the game, but low skill floor just means "easy kill" for any decent player. A proper Mercy player, is one of the busiest damn members on a good team. They not only have to know who is hurt, whether they need healing or not, but also who everyone is shooting at and whether they need to be damaged boosted and constantly making priority based decisions based on all of that knowledge. The task prioritization skills of an epic level Mercy player will make being a rabbit herder look easy.
The Spy is an example of a class more akin to OW's in that you really want to coordinate with your team to be most effective. He has a lot of "skills" that disable defensive positions and/or assassinate key members of your team in the same way that OW does. It is, admittedly, less skill-based than it is situational awareness and coordination, which is one of the key reasons I cited the example.
I don't think less of OW because of Mercy's healing beam; on the contrary, I thoroughly enjoyed TF2 and a good Medic (to whom Mercy is very closely related) who knew when to hide behind that Heavy and heal and when to pull out the Needlegun or Bone Saw and protect that Heavy's/Engineer/Sniper/what-have-you's ass (being in the unique position to constantly scan the backlines for Spies or flanking Scouts/Pyros/etc.). It just takes less twitch skill to utilize her effectively than hitscan or projectile weapons without abilities that equalize players (which OW definitely has more of than does LB from the looks of gameplay trailers and class explanations).
Additionally, while you submit the Scout "doesn't have a leg to stand on," consider he has no ability to reflect incoming fire back onto attackers (Genji), nor does he have a teleport or rewind (Tracer), but instead simply relies on footspeed and a double jump to avoid enemy fire. It's hard to make the case that it takes more traditional skill to be effective with a character that has all the detriments (low health pool, close-range weaponry) of those two OW characters while failing to enjoy the more effective defensive abilities Tracer and Genji have (EDIT- note that the Scout's only defensive "skill," as far as I know/remember, comes from drinking cola that makes him invuln for a short time at the cost of his speed and ability to attack players and interact with objectives).
But we digress.
We do digress, but thanks for the spirited conversation. Makes the forums thoroughly fun!
... which aren't shooters.
Blizzard is nothing if not masters of creating deceptively deep games with learning curves as smooth as butter.
csgo > ow
the end.
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I saw the reviewer is baffled by the question "why isn't ranked ready for a game that plans to be an esport".
Well the answer is really simple to be honest. They did have ranked play, few months ago even in beta. However, nobody liked it and they went back to the drawing board.
Judging by the PTR ranked play they have right now I'm actually surprised what they came up with in such a short time. It's a completely new system... And from the looks of it, that's not final either. They are going to change some things before the official launch later this month.
Looking at the uptick - even in custom matches, and the absurd hit boxes, I don't see how people can honestly say this should be seriously considered a competitive game. Does it have the makings? Sure. The problem is with how it's been coded imo.
You may say 12 maps is a lot, but be real again - a lot of the maps are simply ignored for the direct A-B route that the objectives usually call for, making the maps feel repetitive very quickly. Also, same game modes over and over with little diversity is killing me right now.
Sure it's a decent game. The progression is decent but you will rarely feel rewarded - you're not going to own a lot of loot but will still get a bunch of duplicated that might as well be rewarding you with Gamestop pricing for turn ins.
Blizzard is one of those golden child companies that can do no wrong these days. I won't forget the dance studio, or the two main cities for WoD, or the non-CGI ending to SC2 trilogy - not to mention the cash shop with a sub game... - Blizzard is starting to lack on solid content and simply doll up stuff you can find else where. It's TF3 after all this time to re-invent the wheel and make something special - don't believe the Overhype.
Still wanting and waiting for an esports friendly battle ground style game that plays more like an mmo with diverse classes, lots of abilities to use and choose from and the panned out 3rd person view, maybe a 10 hour pve story that is optional but no restriction on skills or resources from the start in pvp play.
Please!?