PvPers Need PvEers... maybe, but PvEers certainly do not need PvPers.
Well, the popularity of online pure-pvp games versus online pure-pve games would disagree with you.
Between mobas and shooters alone we know that PvP is a far more popular activity online than PvE. We love killing each other, repetitively, endlessly, with little to no rewards! PvPers don't need PvErs and PvErs dont need PvPers.
What we both need is well made games. Developers struggle to make PvP RPGs for some reason (probably never ending battle between progression and balance) so PvP MMORPGs haven't managed to pull in the numbers expected, so historically PvPers have needed some PvErs to get the money in.
Also, don't forget the crossover. I expect the average joe enjoys both pvp and pve - they just want the experiences to be fun. It's just that lazy developers often make pvp really unbalanced, so its not fun for casual players or new players.
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In the initial plans for crowfall, there was mention of multiple servers, some of which would be pve only and either along the kickstarter or after this was made to be a full pvp game, thus losing this pve's interest (and hoping he can sell his accounts). Until game companies can add more realism, strategy and tactics to a pvp element in the game (possibly sometype of mental sanity when killing people), then i'm pve.
Considering that the initial plans for Crowfall were presented to the public during the Kickstarter campaign (and a few reveals in the weeks before KS, but not the full picture), I doubt they announced anything before KS that would have been changed during KS.
It's still in the plans to have maps that are player-created and where the owner decides of the rules (can make the map full PvE, disable PvP, 100% safe zone). Those maps are huge, up to 25 square kilometers. It would take about 30 minutes to run from one side to the other at 10km/h if I'm correct. Every player gets one map like that at account creation. More information in the Parcel Builder FAQ: http://crowfall.com/faq/parcelbuilder/
I don't think the dividing line is between PvE and PvP but against solo vs teamplay. If it plays anything like Shadowbane everyone is going to do whats needed to get the resources they want or need which basicly means that everyone will be doing PvE. The successful teams will be those who manage their resources most efficient and protect their assets from enemies which includes both their own crafters and resource gathering nodes. Being part of a well composed team where everyone specialises and form a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts is the key here.
But PvPers will fight critters and Crafters will pitch in to the best of their abilities when the castle is under attack.
Someone who is used to soloing and aim to pursue a career as an independent crafter, or indeed independent anything, will have a harder time is my prediction.
I agree with most of the points you make. I remember the devs saying that this image was shown to demonstrate that each world had different rules and that at launch we could expect those numbers and % to be really different.
A quote from ACE: "The real answer on this one is: it's up to you guys . We will come up with various campaign settings and offer them up, and then you (the players) will decide which ones you want to play. If the players WANT dregs rules with some import, then sure, we'll give it to you. If the players don't want that, then we'll turn the knobs and give you the settings that you do want."
So how I understand it is that nothing is set in stone, and depending what the players want, they'll adjust the rules of the campaigns. There are safer campaigns, more dangerous ones, but the Eternal Kingdoms can be 100% safe and PvE if the player decides it that way.
Why do "we" (and by "we" I mean you idiots who do this) always speak of players as PVE'rs and PVP'ers like there isn't a vast gray area inbetween?
No one is denying the grey area of PVE players tolerating non-consensual PVP but it is by no means "vast", it is actually very small.
Because you say so? Crowfall directly targets this gray area of people + those on the extreme end of the PVP spectrum. The developers have been very clear about their intentions from the beginning.
If you're a carebear, stay in Eternal Kingdom turn PVP off and enjoy your 10%-15% of the game experience. Thanks for playng. If you wish to get higher tier crafting mats, don't dare get adventurous and try to sneak into the outer rings then whine on the forums about PVE only servers when you get "ganked" and looted.
You will have access to the high tier crafting mats when those playing in the campaign worlds bring them back. You can either be in a guild with those players so they give it to you for free and you in turn make gear and consumables for them with those mats, or you can buy them via traders.
I agree with most of the points you make. I remember the devs saying that this image was shown to demonstrate that each world had different rules and that at launch we could expect those numbers and % to be really different.
A quote from ACE: "The real answer on this one is: it's up to you guys . We will come up with various campaign settings and offer them up, and then you (the players) will decide which ones you want to play. If the players WANT dregs rules with some import, then sure, we'll give it to you. If the players don't want that, then we'll turn the knobs and give you the settings that you do want."
So how I understand it is that nothing is set in stone, and depending what the players want, they'll adjust the rules of the campaigns. There are safer campaigns, more dangerous ones, but the Eternal Kingdoms can be 100% safe and PvE if the player decides it that way.
I interpret the knob turning to be in regard to the import export rules, PVP rules, and looting rules of the different rings. Not the entire premise of the game which is player conflict. As it stands the only place a anti OWPVP carebear would be is in the Eternal Kingdoms. Going anywhere else puts them in OWPVP. If folks are okay with existing and playing within that 20% of the game that's their perogative. Player confict is the game.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
I agree with most of the points you make. I remember the devs saying that this image was shown to demonstrate that each world had different rules and that at launch we could expect those numbers and % to be really different.
A quote from ACE: "The real answer on this one is: it's up to you guys . We will come up with various campaign settings and offer them up, and then you (the players) will decide which ones you want to play. If the players WANT dregs rules with some import, then sure, we'll give it to you. If the players don't want that, then we'll turn the knobs and give you the settings that you do want."
So how I understand it is that nothing is set in stone, and depending what the players want, they'll adjust the rules of the campaigns. There are safer campaigns, more dangerous ones, but the Eternal Kingdoms can be 100% safe and PvE if the player decides it that way.
I interpret the knob turning to be in regard to the import export rules, PVP rules, and looting rules of the different rings. Not the entire premise of the game which is player conflict. As it stands the only place a anti OWPVP carebear would be is in the Eternal Kingdoms. Going anywhere else puts them in OWPVP. If folks are okay with existing and playing within that 20% of the game that's their perogative. Player confict is the game.
That's how I understand it too. Some worlds will be safer (3 factions=lot of friendly players around, more forgiving decay / loot rules, more hospitable environment) while the worlds close the Hunger will be harsh and dangerous.
And as you mention players who don't like conflicts can always stay in one of the thousands Eternal Kingdoms maps.
Not trying to be negative nancy here, but see the above for harsh realities.
We can gather resources in the Eternal Kingdoms 100% safely, same for killing mobs, taming animals, hauling material (not sure that one would be useful though), trading, crafting, etc.
It seems like you're assuming that players will get ganked often in all the campaign worlds. While I agree that in the Dregs and Shadow it will probably happen pretty often, in God's Reach (Chaos vs. Order vs. Balance) I expect that many regions on the map will be really safe thanks to 1/3 of the world population being friendlies.
This whole article, minus the bit about animations is a false dichotomy that presumes that people who like PvP won't do PvE related activities. In fact they often excel at it, so will happily get that stuff done, since doing activities that pit you against computer-scripted AI is child's play and a great way to wind down or play when not wanting to do anything intense, drink coffee, etc.
All I see is a PvP focused game buckling under the pressure to acquire more players. This isn't a MOBA and it's not an esport FPS either. MMO's just don't do well as PvP focused games and they never will. Besides, didn't ArtCraft say this would be a niche game? So why the sudden change of heart to please PvE players?
Can you name a few things that would have changed in Crowfall?
TimEisen said:
Exactly, we need to think beyond a bot designed to let us win for some truly rewarding forms of PVE. In Life is Feudal I chop down and carry lumber to contribute to the keep construction. I find it far more enjoyable and fulfilling than being things made to let me win. I just dont get anything out of that scenario. I mean, I beat the thing made to be beat, that doesnt make me feel anything. Helping the greater good of the keep via my "PVE" that gives me something back.
Life is Feudal...I think you just confirmed my point.
All I see is a PvP focused game buckling under the pressure to acquire more players. This isn't a MOBA and it's not an esport FPS either. MMO's just don't do well as PvP focused games and they never will. Besides, didn't ArtCraft say this would be a niche game? So why the sudden change of heart to please PvE players?
Can you name a few things that would have changed in Crowfall?
I'm sorry, maybe the title of the thread is simply click bait, which I don't expect from an official piece of news. If so, than I apologize for assuming what the title implied.
Pretty sure the vast majority of people wouldn't read that and think it implied changes.....but okay, sure.
All I see is a PvP focused game buckling under the pressure to acquire more players. This isn't a MOBA and it's not an esport FPS either. MMO's just don't do well as PvP focused games and they never will. Besides, didn't ArtCraft say this would be a niche game? So why the sudden change of heart to please PvE players?
Can you name a few things that would have changed in Crowfall?
I'm sorry, maybe the title of the thread is simply click bait, which I don't expect from an official piece of news. If so, than I apologize for assuming what the title implied.
I don't understand how the title "PvPers need PvEers" would imply a "sudden change of heart to please PvE players". Pretty sure ArtCraft has understood since day 1 that Crowfall needs PvEers: many updates during the Kickstarter were about non-PvP related stuff, crafting, Eternal Kingdoms, etc. and the screenshots/footage were often showing PvE.
All I see is a PvP focused game buckling under the pressure to acquire more players. This isn't a MOBA and it's not an esport FPS either. MMO's just don't do well as PvP focused games and they never will. Besides, didn't ArtCraft say this would be a niche game? So why the sudden change of heart to please PvE players?
Can you name a few things that would have changed in Crowfall?
I'm sorry, maybe the title of the thread is simply click bait, which I don't expect from an official piece of news. If so, than I apologize for assuming what the title implied.
I don't understand how the title "PvPers need PvEers" would imply a "sudden change of heart to please PvE players". Pretty sure ArtCraft has understood since day 1 that Crowfall needs PvEers: many updates during the Kickstarter were about non-PvP related stuff, crafting, Eternal Kingdoms, etc. and the screenshots/footage were often showing PvE.
My point is, if nothing has changed, than the title of the thread is misleading. Crowfall is anything but PvE friendly and EK's have been known about for a very long time. In fact, everything PvE related to Crowfall has been known for a very long time. So, if nothing has changed, than the title of the thread makes no sense, aka click bait.
PvPers need PvEers? What does that even mean? Unless you're telling me Crowfall needs PvEers too, which every MMO does, I will view the title as nothing more than click bait.
Well I respect how you feel about the title but it still describes what a big portion of this article is about. If I'm correct the author is sharing his views and interrogations about the PvE population in Crowfall and says that he hopes ArtCraft will work hard to implement cool PvE features to retain the PvE players, as much as they spend time and energy on creating PvP mechanics. "I know Crowfall will feature that kind of PVE, but will it be deep enough to retain the players that seek it? Will doing it in the Eternal Kingdoms feel too isolated? How can you nudge those players closer to PVP without driving them away?"
I'm obviously more of a pvper but not just to challenge myself against true competition but to do things that have consequences and meaning within the game world. I would think that feature more than any other appeals to PVErs. Doing 1000 quests that 100000 people did all with the exact same story and result seems unfulfilling. Designing the keep that stands for 5 in game years and repels hundreds of enemies, that does something more for me.
I think that's a very good point. I don't pvp much at all now, but Crowfall's approach to game design looks to deal with a lot of the issues that have lead to me disliking most pvp. I can choose the level of engagement, there are things to do if I don't feel up to a lot of thud and blunder on a particular day, character specialization is there, etc.
They've already stated they understand that the game appeals to roughly 30% of the genre market. Any more that they draw in from beyond that is just gravy. If they've set up their production properly....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Yeah, I'm going to get on the "this title is click bait" boat.
Artcraft hasn't changed their stance at all. They have been so transparent with their intentions (and when they change them). I really can't understand what the title is implying. "Poker Players need Solitaire Players" is what it reads like.
I really don't understand why super fragile sensitive carebears find games like Crowfall (which unapologetically have niche intentions) and try to bend and will the direction to something else.
First they join discussions going on about how terriblely fail OWPVP games are (when they haven't really been done correctly yet or fall apart due to other reasons). Or they join every single last OWPVP game discussion to repeat ad nauseum how "won't be getting my money because of non-consensual PVP". OR in true bat sh!t crazy ex girlfriend/boyfriend fashion we get the:
...where they just delusionally make stuff up about how the OWPVP game is actually a thin skinned carebears haven for them to save PVP players from their eminent doom. Apparently people who play games that simulate ongoing conflict need the cries of helpless peasants to keep them playing.
There it is. You leave your "lobby", you'll need your situational awareness in some form. Stay away if this bothers you. There is mostly bad touch PVP in this game. Allow it to succeed or fail without your cries.
Oh yeah... there are no emotes.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Can you kill the PvEers? If so, then you can't have PvEers in any meaningful quantity (aka, you might retain some outliers), they will leave.
It's funny that they even mention that it's a fine line between needing them and treating them like cattle and doing grunt work. The question will always be the same for any PvEer, "Why should I PvE in your game that serves PvPers when I can simply go to a game that caters to PvEers?" The answer, likewise, has always been the same . . . the PvEers simply leave and go to a PvE game.
"It used to work in UO and blah blah blah" Yes, that's because there weren't dozens of other options for PvE MMO's. Now there are.
Just like with BDO PvE players will be treated as nothing more than PK livestock to feed the hungry masses of gankers. Can't say that's a winning formula, but they will learn.
it is mainly pvp focused because that is a cheaper easier game to make and upkeep.
When your focus for game design is centered around a cheaper cost,your not really making the game you want to make,just one that works financially.
As for END GAME,that is a really bad idea started up by seems Blizzard and Wow.Furthermore it seems we reach these end games in a ridiculously fast time,making the main content of the game meaningless and just too fast. imo there is no true end game unless players are dying off.What the term has meant over all games the last 5+ years is to simply mean end level grinding.Then because devs have been so shallow or incompetent with their game content,the "end game" content has been laughable,usually some added stats or gear grind and not much more than that.
How much effort does it take for a developer to add in grindy stats?Answer....VERY little.How much effort for some gear grind?Again not much effort needed,especially for a large team,so devs across the board are simply looking for cheap easy to implement game designs.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Comments
Between mobas and shooters alone we know that PvP is a far more popular activity online than PvE. We love killing each other, repetitively, endlessly, with little to no rewards! PvPers don't need PvErs and PvErs dont need PvPers.
What we both need is well made games. Developers struggle to make PvP RPGs for some reason (probably never ending battle between progression and balance) so PvP MMORPGs haven't managed to pull in the numbers expected, so historically PvPers have needed some PvErs to get the money in.
Also, don't forget the crossover. I expect the average joe enjoys both pvp and pve - they just want the experiences to be fun. It's just that lazy developers often make pvp really unbalanced, so its not fun for casual players or new players.
It's still in the plans to have maps that are player-created and where the owner decides of the rules (can make the map full PvE, disable PvP, 100% safe zone). Those maps are huge, up to 25 square kilometers. It would take about 30 minutes to run from one side to the other at 10km/h if I'm correct. Every player gets one map like that at account creation. More information in the Parcel Builder FAQ: http://crowfall.com/faq/parcelbuilder/
But PvPers will fight critters and Crafters will pitch in to the best of their abilities when the castle is under attack.
Someone who is used to soloing and aim to pursue a career as an independent crafter, or indeed independent anything, will have a harder time is my prediction.
A quote from ACE: "The real answer on this one is: it's up to you guys . We will come up with various campaign settings and offer them up, and then you (the players) will decide which ones you want to play. If the players WANT dregs rules with some import, then sure, we'll give it to you. If the players don't want that, then we'll turn the knobs and give you the settings that you do want."
So how I understand it is that nothing is set in stone, and depending what the players want, they'll adjust the rules of the campaigns. There are safer campaigns, more dangerous ones, but the Eternal Kingdoms can be 100% safe and PvE if the player decides it that way.
Raph Koster, Gordon Walton or Todd Coleman will be answering them during the 12-hour live stream this Monday. I can copy your questions and post them on the thread created on the official forum: http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/12252-a-murder-of-crows-live-official-question-thread
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
And as you mention players who don't like conflicts can always stay in one of the thousands Eternal Kingdoms maps.
It seems like you're assuming that players will get ganked often in all the campaign worlds. While I agree that in the Dregs and Shadow it will probably happen pretty often, in God's Reach (Chaos vs. Order vs. Balance) I expect that many regions on the map will be really safe thanks to 1/3 of the world population being friendlies.
Pretty sure the vast majority of people wouldn't read that and think it implied changes.....but okay, sure.
I think that's a very good point. I don't pvp much at all now, but Crowfall's approach to game design looks to deal with a lot of the issues that have lead to me disliking most pvp. I can choose the level of engagement, there are things to do if I don't feel up to a lot of thud and blunder on a particular day, character specialization is there, etc.
They've already stated they understand that the game appeals to roughly 30% of the genre market. Any more that they draw in from beyond that is just gravy. If they've set up their production properly....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Artcraft hasn't changed their stance at all. They have been so transparent with their intentions (and when they change them). I really can't understand what the title is implying. "Poker Players need Solitaire Players" is what it reads like.
I really don't understand why super fragile sensitive carebears find games like Crowfall (which unapologetically have niche intentions) and try to bend and will the direction to something else.
First they join discussions going on about how terriblely fail OWPVP games are (when they haven't really been done correctly yet or fall apart due to other reasons). Or they join every single last OWPVP game discussion to repeat ad nauseum how "won't be getting my money because of non-consensual PVP". OR in true bat sh!t crazy ex girlfriend/boyfriend fashion we get the:
...where they just delusionally make stuff up about how the OWPVP game is actually a thin skinned carebears haven for them to save PVP players from their eminent doom. Apparently people who play games that simulate ongoing conflict need the cries of helpless peasants to keep them playing.
FYI on Eternal Kingdoms:
http://crowfall.com/en/faq/eternal-kingdoms/
There it is. You leave your "lobby", you'll need your situational awareness in some form. Stay away if this bothers you. There is mostly bad touch PVP in this game. Allow it to succeed or fail without your cries.
Oh yeah... there are no emotes.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
it is mainly pvp focused because that is a cheaper easier game to make and upkeep.
When your focus for game design is centered around a cheaper cost,your not really making the game you want to make,just one that works financially.
As for END GAME,that is a really bad idea started up by seems Blizzard and Wow.Furthermore it seems we reach these end games in a ridiculously fast time,making the main content of the game meaningless and just too fast.
imo there is no true end game unless players are dying off.What the term has meant over all games the last 5+ years is to simply mean end level grinding.Then because devs have been so shallow or incompetent with their game content,the "end game" content has been laughable,usually some added stats or gear grind and not much more than that.
How much effort does it take for a developer to add in grindy stats?Answer....VERY little.How much effort for some gear grind?Again not much effort needed,especially for a large team,so devs across the board are simply looking for cheap easy to implement game designs.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.