Solo'ing in mmos is kinda weird to me as well. Although I see why many devs do it, I dont believe it should be as easy as they make it. I'll go back a decade with FFXI as an example. Yeah you could solo to level and some classes were perfect for it (i.e. beastmaster) but it was tough and took alot of time. So people would party up to level to speed things up and make more exp in less time. I use this as an example because I feel not enough games reward you for group play. More often than not, games cut your exp in half when grouped and continuously halving the exp the more people are in the group while the mobs still remain the same difficulty. There should be solo'ing for those that want to but honestly it should be hard and time consuming if they wish to do it. Group play should be rewarded more so that people are not really forced to party but compelled (I dont really feel they mean the same thing) so it makes people understand how to go out of their comfort zone and also how their role generally works in a group setting instead of learning how to play their class when they finally reach a gear level (cause every game has these now....) to which they can do top tier content.
Being in a world with other players doesn't mean you automatically have to group with them to bash monsters. That's what MMORPG developers have understood, it became mainstream thanks to WoW in 2004, but games like UO and AC1 did it years before.
Yep, I don't understand why games are only multiplayer if you're forced to group. That's like saying the world is singleplayer because some people prefer being by themselves a lot of the time.
Being in a world with other players doesn't mean you automatically have to group with them to bash monsters. That's what MMORPG developers have understood, it became mainstream thanks to WoW in 2004, but games like UO and AC1 did it years before.
I think Blizzard just look around at the people purchasing their titles (Starcraft, Diablo) and noted gamer behavior. Then responded appropriately.
Players from "more social" games have been bemoaning how successfully that worked, ever since. Perhaps gamers weren't as extroverted as certain titles demanded they become to succeed.
You sell more games pitching to grumpy antisocial teens than cerebral, overanalytical adults? Apparently so.
Back in the day the roles of Tank, Heals, CC, and DPS were clear. Now it seems that DPS is king and all other party members should do what ever they can to keep the DPS from killing themselves and the rest of the group. This zerg mentality has also cut into the lore and questing aspects group runs, quit reading just click through the dialog, get your update and move on, screw the story!! GIVE ME MORE CLICKIES NOW!!! I think that this really hit home with me at about the time of the EoF and ROK expansions in EQ2 and that was a byproduct of the general climate in MMO's. The last game that was group based was the train wreck formerly known as Vanguard, despite belonging on the Island of Misfit Toys that game did group balance and content correctly.
I think one of the biggest problems is that old school group based games took the notion too far. In all of the ones that I played there was a clear line of demarcation between solo, group, and raid content. And despite how geared you were from one play style you were under equipped for the next. Unfortunately this demarcation bled over into all other aspects of the game... want to craft a boat, go kill a dragon!!! In theory open markets would allow for dedicated crafters to obtain raid level materials but the reality often was that this just did not happen until such a time that the materials were outmoded and no longer of value to the raiders... unless you were one of the 10 crafters that were in power guilds then you were pretty good to go. This clear and present demarcation of content and play system gave rise to the stigma of 'forced grouping', there is no point in playing the game because at some point you can not play it the way that you want to.
I guess in summary, I am old and just do not get it anymore so give me a soloable game with other dorks running around to make it feel more alive than a single player game.
You sell more games pitching to grumpy antisocial teens than cerebral, overanalytical adults? Apparently so.
Sorry to have to say this, but that's arrogant as well as ignorant.
My raid leader during WotLK and Cataclyst in WoW was a PHD in mathematics, some stuff that has to do with fluid mechanics. He is kind of a genius in his field. Yet he plays WoW. And Overwatch.
Myself am a software engineer since over 25 years, yet I play WoW. And Overwatch. And Black Desert. And GW2. etc...
Most people I play with are educated, work in intellectual jobs, and are adults.
Seems to me that the antisocial people are those who are unable to go towards other players and group if the game doesn't force them to do so.
Or did I misunderstand you?
You could be the exceptions though. Not to say that its true or not but I would think kid gamers out number adults. At least that's how Xbox Live is lol.
To the question as others have said there have always been solo MMORPG. To many people view Everquest as synonymous with old school when it was just the most popular at the time. Its was nearly the exception to the rule.
As, I said before the pproblem with solo in current MMORPG is not the fact that combat is solo. Its the design of the world and the content that make the game antisocial. No interdependcy and heavily guided solo content and instances are more to blame than solo combat which has been around from the start.
You sell more games pitching to grumpy antisocial teens than cerebral, overanalytical adults? Apparently so.
Sorry to have to say this, but that's arrogant as well as ignorant.
My raid leader during WotLK and Cataclyst in WoW was a PHD in mathematics, some stuff that has to do with fluid mechanics. He is kind of a genius in his field. Yet he plays WoW. And Overwatch.
Myself am a software engineer since over 25 years, yet I play WoW. And Overwatch. And Black Desert. And GW2. etc...
Most people I play with are educated, work in intellectual jobs, and are adults.
Seems to me that the antisocial people are those who are unable to go towards other players and group if the game doesn't force them to do so.
Or did I misunderstand you?
One can't say some people do not try. I'm sure everyone experiences someone trying to be social in a group through a finder or w/e the game has for grouping mechanics and will get silence. Then often feel as though its not worth doing since everyone starts to act the same in their eyes. Games shouldn't force group content down one's throat but I do believe that solo focused gamers shouldn't get to experience everything the game has to offer without being willing to work with others at some point (gating content).
There is truth to that, games that focus on certain segments/playstyles will ofcourse be designed appropiately and thus be subjectively "worse" games for people in other segments.
In an utopian world that wasn't ruled by money, every niche would get served. That would be the optimal situation. Reality is ofcourse different and the lucrative segments get a lot while non-lucrative ones get nothing. Not much anyone can do about it other than invest a few millions themselves. Because, quite frankly, you can't make demands while other people's money is on the line. You'll have to use your own.
The reason someone plays mmos solo is quite easy, it is to be apart of a living world. No matter how well they make you think an npc is real, you will know it is not. So, solo mmo players play in a world where they see real people doing whatever. Suppose you run across an npc fishing out in the wild, you might not even take a second look. If you see a real person out in the middle of no where fishing, most likely you will think to yourself "oh shit, is that dude really fishing over here", and funny moments like that is what makes the immersion exist.
Originally posted by laokoko "if you want to be a game designer, you should sell your house and fund your game. Since if you won't even fund your own game, no one will".
The problem is your next paragraph "sharing the story". That is not going to happen unless you fragment it into small individual chunks that at the end have little to do with "story".
why? Just do it like Borderlands 2. Player A plays his story and can invite player B to join, and by definition, "share the story". Surely player B does not get the whole story .. but some parts are still shared.
Playing in groups I have to wait for everything to get organized and never know if someone has to leave or you get someone that likes grouping but does not play well with others. Playing solo my schedule is my own and I can pretty much do what I want when I want. A good middle ground are those dynamic events, it lets you play with others and traditional grouping is optional.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Playing in groups I have to wait for everything to get organized and never know if someone has to leave or you get someone that likes grouping but does not play well with others. Playing solo my schedule is my own and I can pretty much do what I want when I want. A good middle ground are those dynamic events, it lets you play with others and traditional grouping is optional.
This is how I feel as well.
I just want to expand on it a little. I think one of the reasons people often prefer a "solo" experience is how often other players can ruin your fun. This can range from something as small as not being able to agree on thing or as big as the trolling, disrespect, and general douchebaggery that has become so common in online games now.
Obviously how much these things annoy a person will vary for each individual. In my experience after it happens enough times... solo play becomes much more appealing.
The attractions is - not having to deal with other people.
Because sometimes other people suck, a lot.
You don't have to deal with other's schedules, wants/needs etc..
Solo - it's just you, can play whenever and however you want without anyone else giving you any crap.
Don't have to listen to guild leader whining in teamspeak/discord "oh Guild X and Y are our friends now - so stop killing them" - solo you're your own boss.
It's nice to be the king.
Having said all this - I play with my guild in almost all games (except the ones my guild doesn't play) - but since my guildies are my RL friends, other than group scheduling, we all do what we want so the same freedom is there as if I were soloing.
The question is more why you should bother play an MMO in that case, single player games gives a far better solo experience then MMOs if playing alone if the prefered playing style.
You could of course play something like the first Guildwars, there you can team up with others or never see them besides in outposts and a CORPG like that have a lot more potential for a good story then an open world MMO have.
Of course, it might be that the reason so few western AAA MMOs are in the making is that devs ask themselves why they should put so much more money and effort into making a MMO when people just seems to want a singleplayer game anyways.
Still, I think MMOs need to create better group interaction, make it more rewarding and fun to team up. Because I think the half reason most people solo today is that it is usually the fastest and easiest way to progress.10-15 years ago dungeons were the fastest way to gain XP and good loot but now that is only true in the endgame. They reward you most XP each hour if you grind soloquests today so many players do that and when many players solo it is harder to get a group and then even more solo.
The group mechhanics have been dumbed down a lot as well, I think it also have become less fun to run a dungeon now. The idea was really to make it so anyone could run dungeons no matter how bad they are playing but the people who played solo earlier still play it and the ones who used to like dungeons enjoy it less now.
My point anyways is that MMOs today are made for soloers mainly (even though they do a less good job then singleplayer games) and the players adapt to that. The percentage of the content for soloers have gone up a lot since the 90s and many just add a little group content as a salespitch but without much effort.
I think we need a completelly new group dynamic if we want grouping to become popular again, everybody DPS but some can heal or tanl a little just isn't fun enough. Also, the games need to be better rewarding people who play together.
Comments
Your previous post was just wrong, but this one is indeed "lolworthy".
Thank you for that bit of entertainment.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of this "button" approach to communication.
How does that make any sense?
Players from "more social" games have been bemoaning how successfully that worked, ever since. Perhaps gamers weren't as extroverted as certain titles demanded they become to succeed.
You sell more games pitching to grumpy antisocial teens than cerebral, overanalytical adults? Apparently so.
Back in the day the roles of Tank, Heals, CC, and DPS were clear. Now it seems that DPS is king and all other party members should do what ever they can to keep the DPS from killing themselves and the rest of the group. This zerg mentality has also cut into the lore and questing aspects group runs, quit reading just click through the dialog, get your update and move on, screw the story!! GIVE ME MORE CLICKIES NOW!!!
I think that this really hit home with me at about the time of the EoF and ROK expansions in EQ2 and that was a byproduct of the general climate in MMO's. The last game that was group based was the train wreck formerly known as Vanguard, despite belonging on the Island of Misfit Toys that game did group balance and content correctly.
I think one of the biggest problems is that old school group based games took the notion too far. In all of the ones that I played there was a clear line of demarcation between solo, group, and raid content. And despite how geared you were from one play style you were under equipped for the next. Unfortunately this demarcation bled over into all other aspects of the game... want to craft a boat, go kill a dragon!!! In theory open markets would allow for dedicated crafters to obtain raid level materials but the reality often was that this just did not happen until such a time that the materials were outmoded and no longer of value to the raiders... unless you were one of the 10 crafters that were in power guilds then you were pretty good to go. This clear and present demarcation of content and play system gave rise to the stigma of 'forced grouping', there is no point in playing the game because at some point you can not play it the way that you want to.
I guess in summary, I am old and just do not get it anymore so give me a soloable game with other dorks running around to make it feel more alive than a single player game.
<div><span style="width:120px; height:120px;float:left;overflow: hidden;"><a href="http://www.zowned.com/Opef"><img src="http://www.zowned.com/file/pic/user/Opef_120.jpg"; style="border: 0pt none ; margin: 10px 10px 10px 10px; width: 120px; height: 120px;"></a></span></div>
To the question as others have said there have always been solo MMORPG. To many people view Everquest as synonymous with old school when it was just the most popular at the time. Its was nearly the exception to the rule.
As, I said before the pproblem with solo in current MMORPG is not the fact that combat is solo. Its the design of the world and the content that make the game antisocial. No interdependcy and heavily guided solo content and instances are more to blame than solo combat which has been around from the start.
In an utopian world that wasn't ruled by money, every niche would get served. That would be the optimal situation.
Reality is ofcourse different and the lucrative segments get a lot while non-lucrative ones get nothing.
Not much anyone can do about it other than invest a few millions themselves. Because, quite frankly, you can't make demands while other people's money is on the line. You'll have to use your own.
Originally posted by laokoko
"if you want to be a game designer, you should sell your house and fund your game. Since if you won't even fund your own game, no one will".
As for repetition .. clearly it is fun for many, as demonstrated by the fact that D2 is played for >10 years.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I just want to expand on it a little. I think one of the reasons people often prefer a "solo" experience is how often other players can ruin your fun. This can range from something as small as not being able to agree on thing or as big as the trolling, disrespect, and general douchebaggery that has become so common in online games now.
Obviously how much these things annoy a person will vary for each individual. In my experience after it happens enough times... solo play becomes much more appealing.
You could of course play something like the first Guildwars, there you can team up with others or never see them besides in outposts and a CORPG like that have a lot more potential for a good story then an open world MMO have.
Of course, it might be that the reason so few western AAA MMOs are in the making is that devs ask themselves why they should put so much more money and effort into making a MMO when people just seems to want a singleplayer game anyways.
Still, I think MMOs need to create better group interaction, make it more rewarding and fun to team up. Because I think the half reason most people solo today is that it is usually the fastest and easiest way to progress.10-15 years ago dungeons were the fastest way to gain XP and good loot but now that is only true in the endgame. They reward you most XP each hour if you grind soloquests today so many players do that and when many players solo it is harder to get a group and then even more solo.
The group mechhanics have been dumbed down a lot as well, I think it also have become less fun to run a dungeon now. The idea was really to make it so anyone could run dungeons no matter how bad they are playing but the people who played solo earlier still play it and the ones who used to like dungeons enjoy it less now.
My point anyways is that MMOs today are made for soloers mainly (even though they do a less good job then singleplayer games) and the players adapt to that. The percentage of the content for soloers have gone up a lot since the 90s and many just add a little group content as a salespitch but without much effort.
I think we need a completelly new group dynamic if we want grouping to become popular again, everybody DPS but some can heal or tanl a little just isn't fun enough. Also, the games need to be better rewarding people who play together.