Are delays helping Star Citizen?

donger56

 Star Citizen has no real motivation to actually release the game so long as the money is flowing in. As soon as that dies down, they will drop whatever mess they have created and just call it a finished game. That's the problem with these kickstarter games, the incentive is to just string people along and take the money to keep them hopeful that the end result will be what they imagine it to be. The longer this drags on, the more money Chris and his minions get paid to just keep the game in endless development. Once it is released then people have to face the reality of the game not being what was promised or what they imagined it to be.

 Most games like this have their best day on release day and then drop off drastically after that. Investors want actual results on some rational time frame where ignorant fanboys will just keep throwing good money after bad. This makes crowdfunding perfect for flashy salesman like Roberts, but it hasn't actually made any good games in the MMORPG genre. The failures are too numerous to count at this point though.  Eventually people will wise up after getting burned a few times and this fad will die off. 

Shodanas

[mod edit] SQ42 / SC will be B2P. Which pretty much renders everything he wrote after the first phrase as irrelevant or speculation at best.

holdenhamlet

Well, let's see.  They're making millions a month right now.  If they release the game, they will actually have to deal with problems.  The only thing they have to gain is possibly making more money.  But if the game fails they are risking their current income stream.

So yeah, there's little monetary incentive to actually develop the game and tons of risk associated with doing it.  There is some incentive to develop new ships and every once in awhile, something new to look at, but to actually develop the game itself- no.

CrazKanuk

holdenhamlet said:

Well, let's see.  They're making millions a month right now.  If they release the game, they will actually have to deal with problems.  The only thing they have to gain is possibly making more money.  But if the game fails they are risking their current income stream.

So yeah, there's little monetary incentive to actually develop the game and tons of risk associated with doing it.  There is some incentive to develop new ships and every once in awhile, something new to look at, but to actually develop the game itself- no.

They are making a little better than $2 million monthly. However, their monthly spend likely exceeds that since they have at LEAST 200 employees (verified through Linkedin). That puts them right at around the $2 million monthly mark. The last, official, count that I recall they were somewhere in the neighborhood of 260 employees. So, they are actually in the red once you factor in salaries plus labor burden. Plus, this monthly revenue is on the decline, so who knows what's coming next month. 

On top of that, by delaying they are creating uncertainty among their backers, which may prompt them to seek refunds or perform chargebacks. They have a number of whales at the moment, and you could sell them thousands more dollars, but this uncertainty could put a big fat padlock on their wallets until they know it's coming for sure. Not to mention, at some point, there could always be a class action lawsuit. Every delay gets them closer to that. 

Finally, even if they've sold all they can, wouldn't they just push out whatever they can, kill 100+ jobs and move into a sustaining effort where they could simply sell ships and make slow game progress, but make a profit? 

MadFrenchie

CrazKanuk said:

holdenhamlet said:

Well, let's see.  They're making millions a month right now.  If they release the game, they will actually have to deal with problems.  The only thing they have to gain is possibly making more money.  But if the game fails they are risking their current income stream.

So yeah, there's little monetary incentive to actually develop the game and tons of risk associated with doing it.  There is some incentive to develop new ships and every once in awhile, something new to look at, but to actually develop the game itself- no.

Finally, even if they've sold all they can, wouldn't they just push out whatever they can, kill 100+ jobs and move into a sustaining effort where they could simply sell ships and make slow game progress, but make a profit? 

From what I understand, they aren't going to continue selling ships at release.  It would create PR flak to go back on that principle at release.

Erillion

CrazKanuk said:

The last, official, count that I recall they were somewhere in the neighborhood of 260 employees.

315

(number including contractors)

From the recent answer to Paypal.


Have fun

CrazKanuk

MadFrenchie said:

CrazKanuk said:

holdenhamlet said:

Well, let's see.  They're making millions a month right now.  If they release the game, they will actually have to deal with problems.  The only thing they have to gain is possibly making more money.  But if the game fails they are risking their current income stream.

So yeah, there's little monetary incentive to actually develop the game and tons of risk associated with doing it.  There is some incentive to develop new ships and every once in awhile, something new to look at, but to actually develop the game itself- no.

Finally, even if they've sold all they can, wouldn't they just push out whatever they can, kill 100+ jobs and move into a sustaining effort where they could simply sell ships and make slow game progress, but make a profit? 

From what I understand, they aren't going to continue selling ships at release.  It would create PR flak to go back on that principle at release.

Sure, but they'll be selling SOMETHING. Honestly, I don't even see them getting away from selling ships. PR Flak compared to what? Compared to an annual delay announcement? Hey, maybe it would get lost in the shuffle entirely because people would just be happy to have it delivered, lol. I can see the press release now, "We understand we said that we wouldn't be selling ships following release, but due to the size of the project we've had to keep on more people than anticipated and need to offset that cost.

rpmcmurphy

MadFrenchie said:

From what I understand, they aren't going to continue selling ships at release.  It would create PR flak to go back on that principle at release.

I think solitary ships are off the table but last I heard they are intending to sell packages, ie game + choice of ship. Roberts had talked about buying the game + Hornet as an option post release. What range of ships they offer remains to be seen.

If they do go down this route I wonder if they will they allow you to upgrade the ship from your package to another hull via the tokens currently available and then melt the game itself into store credit?

MadFrenchie

CrazKanuk said:

MadFrenchie said:

CrazKanuk said:

holdenhamlet said:

Well, let's see.  They're making millions a month right now.  If they release the game, they will actually have to deal with problems.  The only thing they have to gain is possibly making more money.  But if the game fails they are risking their current income stream.

So yeah, there's little monetary incentive to actually develop the game and tons of risk associated with doing it.  There is some incentive to develop new ships and every once in awhile, something new to look at, but to actually develop the game itself- no.

Finally, even if they've sold all they can, wouldn't they just push out whatever they can, kill 100+ jobs and move into a sustaining effort where they could simply sell ships and make slow game progress, but make a profit? 

From what I understand, they aren't going to continue selling ships at release.  It would create PR flak to go back on that principle at release.

Sure, but they'll be selling SOMETHING. Honestly, I don't even see them getting away from selling ships. PR Flak compared to what? Compared to an annual delay announcement? Hey, maybe it would get lost in the shuffle entirely because people would just be happy to have it delivered, lol. I can see the press release now, "We understand we said that we wouldn't be selling ships following release, but due to the size of the project we've had to keep on more people than anticipated and need to offset that cost.

Haha, the honeymoon period for the game may be intense, indeed!  But considering that continuing to sell ships outright for cash would constitute a gross Pay2Win feature...  I don't see it being a workable compromise at release in any manner.

At least, I hope CIG doesn't believe they'd be able to get away with that.  Pretty sure Bill and the gang, at least, would call them on it!

Shodanas

fatears said:

Shodanas said:

The creator of this nicely disguised hate thread based his entire reasoning on the fact that SC is a F2P game.

If he had invested 5 seconds for a google search he would have seen that SQ42 / SC will be B2P. Which pretty much renders everything he wrote after the first phrase as irrelevant or speculation at best.

[mod edit]

You're directly comparing SC with F2P games when there is absolutely nothing free about SC. Which renders the rest of your rant as moot to say the least.

SC and SQ42 will be B2P with separate price tags for the single player SQ42 and the multiplayer SC. A bundle containing both will be also available.

To present the thesis that the developers are taking their sweet time to release the game because big money is coming in from whales is beyond figurative, it's hilarious.

CIG wants and counts on the income the game's release will generate. One of the main reasons they are working so hard to have SQ42 ready for late 2016, early 2017 is exactly the aforementioned one.


[mod edit]

Erillion

rpmcmurphy said:

I think solitary ships are off the table but last I heard they are intending to sell packages, ie game + choice of ship. Roberts had talked about buying the game + Hornet as an option post release. What range of ships they offer remains to be seen.

Ahh, the old "Bar-Citizen" Hornet stuff again.

For the - 20 th ? - time: Chris Roberts mixed up the Mustang starter ship with the Hornet during a Bar-Citizen fan event. Both are single seat fighters. This has later been corrected on the forums. An honest mistake - most likely due to more than one beer with friends.

Official line is still:  Only STARTER ships will be sold in the packages (= game plus either Mustang or Aurora).

It would not be Star Citizen if the usual suspects had not blow out the Bar-Citizen anecdote completely out of proportion with their usual line of reasoning many months ago:  "---> they offer Hornets --> they offer ALL SHIPS FOR REAL MONEY after launch--> AIEIHHEH --> Armageddon"


Have fun

Erillion

MisterZebub said:

How about freaking action figures and actual desk top toy ship models?

They are way ahead of you ;-)










;-)



Have fun

rpmcmurphy

Erillion said:

Ahh, the old "Bar-Citizen" Hornet stuff again.

For the - 20 th ? - time: Chris Roberts mixed up the Mustang starter ship with the Hornet during a Bar-Citizen fan event. Both are single seat fighters. This has later been corrected on the forums. An honest mistake - most likely due to more than one beer with friends.

Calm down dear...

Corrected by whom? And where's the link to this comment so people can verify it was said?
Anyway, I have never seen a comment from Roberts addressing this as a mix-up.

It's funny, if the head honcho says it then it's "one beer too many", if anyone but Roberts says it then "it's not the official word"...

Shodanas

rpmcmurphy said:

Erillion said:

Ahh, the old "Bar-Citizen" Hornet stuff again.

For the - 20 th ? - time: Chris Roberts mixed up the Mustang starter ship with the Hornet during a Bar-Citizen fan event. Both are single seat fighters. This has later been corrected on the forums. An honest mistake - most likely due to more than one beer with friends.

Calm down dear...

Corrected by whom? And where's the link to this comment so people can verify it was said?

Anyway, I have never seen a comment from Roberts addressing this as a mix-up.

Since you're a backer as you claim you have access to the forums. A very quick survey will show you the relevant post.

jcrg99

Shodanas said:

CIG wants and counts on the income the game's release will generate. One of the main reasons they are working so hard to have SQ42 ready for late 2016, early 2017 is exactly the aforementioned one.

Of course they want and would be counting on the income that the game's release COULD generate. But for a long time they have not showing this focus. The results are there to everyone to see. And how CR kept adding non-priority stuff, even beyond to the stretch goals, to their development pipeline. How he kept redoing stuff, regardless pissing of or risking to piss of many customers, both by the changes made after features advertised and sold by real dollars and by the additional time taken, for stuff that many would agree as odd, not really priority to achieve a goal of a release earlier as possible.

This lack of focus and lack of interesting to achieve the goal of a release and walking more objectively to that goal is not just seen by outsiders, developers and gamers. But also was mentioned by ex-employees and all that CR made was to answer to them in ways that did not convince anyone but himself and his die-hard fans.

I have no doubt that from now on they are getting more desperate to achieve a release point, specially from Squadron 42 first chapter at least. They are basically two years without any legit progress except tech demos and unfinished mechanics barely in the initial status released. And that have been making more and more people losing patience, even between die-hard fans we learned about people that lost their faith and asked/earned refunds of thousands of dollars.

The fact that they removed the accountability and changed the contract to pretend that are in some strong position to deny refunds, just to try to make it harder to get or at least convince people that now is harder to get, right now, indicates that they have no idea if they will be even able to release the promised game, meaning that they are far far away of that mark.

All that is a reflex of total lack of focus of people that spend years more interested on ship sales than close the design of the game and advance effectively to deliver.

They are not accomplishing with their promise. They promised to use of good faith to deliver earlier or in the estimated delivery date and worst case scenario 1 year more, in case of some unforeseen event happening (the kind of thing that you put here is an earthquake killing half of their team, not a business decision to expand a scope, while advertising that such thing would make the core of the game coming faster). But then, they made the opposite. It's pretty much what you can define as acting in bad faith on business.

The evidences that they are less interested to release are all there. All over the history of this project. The evidences that they are more interested to release have been zero, except speech contradicted by their actions.

They will release and will show more results, at this point, bad ones due how they advertised their game, as less money they have. Which made all this support and tries to bring more people and get more funds working against that future of this venture. Leading the devs to look more to the easy money than having to make a real and effective effort for the end, not to keep you busy with whatever mess. In other words, the attitude of the fans, makes no sense. They seem more interested to support Roberts/Sandi's proud/pockets, than supporting than helping to direct these devs to what is better for both sides of this deal.

fatears

Shodanas said:

fatears said:

Shodanas said:

The creator of this nicely disguised hate thread based his entire reasoning on the fact that SC is a F2P game.

If he had invested 5 seconds for a google search he would have seen that SQ42 / SC will be B2P. Which pretty much renders everything he wrote after the first phrase as irrelevant or speculation at best.

No I didn't, you obviously have reading comprehension issues or you are purposefully lying, which is it?

You're directly comparing SC with F2P games when there is absolutely nothing free about SC. Which renders the rest of your rant as moot to say the least.

SC and SQ42 will be B2P with separate price tags for the single player SQ42 and the multiplayer SC. A bundle containing both will be also available.

To present the thesis that the developers are taking their sweet time to release the game because big money is coming in from whales is beyond figurative, it's hilarious.

CIG wants and counts on the income the game's release will generate. One of the main reasons they are working so hard to have SQ42 ready for late 2016, early 2017 is exactly the aforementioned one.


* i assure you that i have no reading comprehension issues. It appears that you have issues projecting your thought process in written English.

If you are contradicting the first part of the OP then you must be denying the existence of whales forming part of the funding to date. Or you are trying to silence criticism with disingenuous accusations. I imagine you are trying to silence criticism, people tend to do so when they recognize it is valid.

lahnmir

Erillion said:

MisterZebub said:

How about freaking action figures and actual desk top toy ship models?

They are way ahead of you ;-)










;-)



Have fun

Awesome, I wish the game looked that finished.....

Now Roberts, get back developing instead of flooding the market with crap indirectly (stuff above) or directly (digital ships) associated with the game instead of the actual frigging game! All this stuff being created and being sold means time wasted on something else then the actual game, what a waste, I don't need stupid cards, I need the game that was promised, somewhere around the release date that was promised, give or take 5 years. And even with 5 years extra I don't see them making it....

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

scorpex-x

I don't see what the point of complaining, if you are angry because it's anti consumer maybe go fight your right against freemium mobile games?

Erillion

rpmcmurphy said:

Corrected by whom? And where's the link to this comment so people can verify it was said?

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/309488/cig-to-be-selling-packages-greater-than-simple-starter-ships-post-release/p18

>>> Forum Poster >>> (Page 1)
"So I just watched this week's Starcast show on Twitch - and BadNewsBaron stated he had read that Ben confirmed that CIG is planning to sell ship packages that include ships bigger than simple starter ships POST-Release e.g. Connies and Hornets... "

>>> CIG Ben Lesnick >>>> (Page 18, last post)
BadNewsBaron is incorrect, I have not made any such post and CIG has made no such announcement.
>>>


And this has been posted in this subforum numerous times before.


Have fun

Erillion

lahnmir said:

All this stuff being created and being sold means time wasted on something else then the actual game, 

You do realize that there are many sites online on the Internet where YOU YOURSELF could order fan merchandizing items like these playing cards, pens, T-Shirts, Polos, Filofaxes etc. within 10 minutes, do you not ?  I doubt these items have cost more than a few hours work time for the responsible marketing person at CIG. And just about anybody that can type an e-mail and send a picture to be printed on a T-Shirt can do that.

So in my personal opinion no relevant project time has been wasted on these items.


Have fun

rpmcmurphy

Shodanas said:

Since you're a backer as you claim you have access to the forums. A very quick survey will show you the relevant post.

The only thread discussing the video is this one https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/309488/cig-to-be-selling-packages-greater-than-simple-starter-ships-post-release/p3

Now the thing is, I can't be bothered to go through 18 pages to verify someone else's claim, if they want to claim a comment was made to counteract Roberts' comment then the onus is on them to provide the proof, not me.

Also, you do realise that General Chat is publicly searchable? There's no requirement for being a backer to view or search for the thread...

Try again.

Seriously Shodanas, you seem to get so upset reading my posts, would it not be in your best interests to put me on ignore if they offend you so much?

lahnmir

Erillion said:

lahnmir said:

All this stuff being created and being sold means time wasted on something else then the actual game, 

You do realize that there are many sites online on the Internet where YOU YOURSELF could order fan merchandizing items like these playing cards, pens, T-Shirts, Polos, Filofaxes etc. within 10 minutes, do you not ?  I doubt these items have cost more than a few hours work time for the responsible marketing person at CIG. And just about anybody that can type an e-mail and send a picture to be printed on a T-Shirt can do that.

So in my personal opinion no relevant project time has been wasted on these items.


Have fun

I agree, however, Roberts is already way past the promised delivery date. I get that that is because of added features/bloat etc. but if there is one team not even close to a finish line it is Roberts team. And even though all these items might take mere minutes or hours to make and/or deliver I think that actually 100% of their time should be invested into their game and NOTHING else, their pace is snail like especially compared to, say, the Crowfall team. 

It also stings that all these side activities have more to do with generating more money then they have to do with SC itself, the game that has gotten record breaking funding. They should not be needing more money, they should be working on the game more. 

This is all my personal opinion of course but I think they are getting away with this stuff WAY too easily.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

rpmcmurphy

Erillion said:

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/309488/cig-to-be-selling-packages-greater-than-simple-starter-ships-post-release/p18

>>> Forum Poster >>> (Page 1)
"So I just watched this week's Starcast show on Twitch - and BadNewsBaron stated he had read that Ben confirmed that CIG is planning to sell ship packages that include ships bigger than simple starter ships POST-Release e.g. Connies and Hornets... "

>>> CIG Ben Lesnick >>>> (Page 18, last post)
BadNewsBaron is incorrect, I have not made any such post and CIG has made no such announcement.
>>>

Thank you for providing the link.

So nothing directly addressing Chris Roberts' "one beer too many" comment at all. It is solely aimed at a comment made by a streamer claiming Ben Lesnick said something.

The question is, as I've said to you before, who do you trust in this situation?
On the one hand you have the boss saying "We will probably sell ship packages like the Super Hornet + game... " and on the other you have an underling saying "I did not say that and the company has not made an official announcement." which is technically true despite there being a video of the boss saying ship packages post release are a probability.


Edt: I don't know why you guys get personal about this. There is conflicting information here and it's important for people to be aware of that so they can make decisions with all of it in mind. That's a good thing.

GrumpyHobbit

rpmcmurphy said:

There is conflicting information here...

Is there? All I see are Opium fields and walls of text...

CrazKanuk

MadFrenchie said:

CrazKanuk said:

MadFrenchie said:

CrazKanuk said:

holdenhamlet said:

Well, let's see.  They're making millions a month right now.  If they release the game, they will actually have to deal with problems.  The only thing they have to gain is possibly making more money.  But if the game fails they are risking their current income stream.

So yeah, there's little monetary incentive to actually develop the game and tons of risk associated with doing it.  There is some incentive to develop new ships and every once in awhile, something new to look at, but to actually develop the game itself- no.

Finally, even if they've sold all they can, wouldn't they just push out whatever they can, kill 100+ jobs and move into a sustaining effort where they could simply sell ships and make slow game progress, but make a profit? 

From what I understand, they aren't going to continue selling ships at release.  It would create PR flak to go back on that principle at release.

Sure, but they'll be selling SOMETHING. Honestly, I don't even see them getting away from selling ships. PR Flak compared to what? Compared to an annual delay announcement? Hey, maybe it would get lost in the shuffle entirely because people would just be happy to have it delivered, lol. I can see the press release now, "We understand we said that we wouldn't be selling ships following release, but due to the size of the project we've had to keep on more people than anticipated and need to offset that cost.

Haha, the honeymoon period for the game may be intense, indeed!  But considering that continuing to sell ships outright for cash would constitute a gross Pay2Win feature...  I don't see it being a workable compromise at release in any manner.

At least, I hope CIG doesn't believe they'd be able to get away with that.  Pretty sure Bill and the gang, at least, would call them on it!

Depends on the definition of P2W. Many would consider ship skins to be P2W. What if they offered Planets for sale, or space stations that had no impact on the game? I can DEFINITELY see people saying they're P2W. 

If they are selling ships through the shop that can be obtained with a reasonable amount of effort within the game, then I don't view that as P2W. I know some do, but the industry is already poo-pooing on that perspective because many games are selling gear (NOT best in slot gear) through cash shops. Why? Honestly? I think it's because the current climate is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" one.