Dear Game Developers

Ibja

While I have given up hoping that my letters each year will reach Santa, I am hoping this open letter on a forum will reach you.  I am craving a non-twitch style, turn based MMORPG.  After years of playing MMOs, I have had lots of ups and downs, played some amazing AAA titles and some wonderful indie games, but I have realized that I need something a little less action focused for my life.  

About 8 months ago, I started playing Summoner's War on my phone, and I have been addicted ever since.  It is a game that mixes strategy and team building, is turn based, and has plenty of content that you set up your team to auto fight, and some content that requires manual control.

I would like an MMO like this, but with just a single character to develop.  I would like to be able to set up options and AI scripts for how my characters will play out his turns (I.E. cast your heal when team members go below 60% health), grow and develop different abilities, and even team up with players for content.  Similar to the combat style of Summoner's War, but I would like the game to NOT be about collecting different kinds of monsters to be on my team, but rather developing one character that can solo or fit into a team.

Preferably, I would like the game to be playable on my laptop - I would like to be able to set up my AI scripts, and see how my strategies and character set up play out in various levels of the game.  I don't want my only MMO options to be first person shooters, world of warcraft, or card games (although I do still play games like this AND enjoy them).  I want to create my own character in a turn based strategy game (one character, I just want to control ONE at a time).

Pretty please with sugar on top can a game like this be made?

Sincerely and with the greatest hope,
Ibja

sunandshadow

Have you already tried Dofus and Wakfu?

Ibja

sunandshadow said:

Have you already tried Dofus and Wakfu?

Yes, I have played both pretty extensively.  I am dissatisfied with the developers direction with the game and the massive amounts of bugs, especially in Wakfu.  It's also pretty disappointing that the game has all these problems that plague both low level and high level play, and they are producing content that attempts to solve neither.

But yes, I was in love with both games for quite a while.

Gestankfaust

Dear OP,

Learn to make your own games

Gaendric

Will be hard to find something perfectly fitting that also has high quality, your wishes are very specific and somewhat niche.
Best bet is to place 10 million bucks on the table, then someone will produce exactly what you want.

Otherwise you will have to take whatever is up for grabs. You can't tell others how to invest their money afterall.
You already played similar games (even if they weren't up to your standards), so you kinda already did your "vote with your wallet" part. Not much else you can do other than scrape together those 10mil.

Eluwien

Strategy against AI with automated combat?
Team building but you play it solo, and you want to reduce it to single character to develop?
Create AI scripts to manage engagements?

What you describe is not an MMORPG, not even an MMO, it's barely a multiplayer game, and it sounds horrible at that. 

Ibja

Eluwien said:

Strategy against AI with automated combat?
Team building but you play it solo, and you want to reduce it to single character to develop?
Create AI scripts to manage engagements?

What you describe is not an MMORPG, not even an MMO, it's barely a multiplayer game, and it sounds horrible at that. 

I'm exactly describing summoners war without monster collecting, and its one of the most popular games in the world....

Ibja

Gestankfaust said:

Dear OP,

Learn to make your own games

If I was a game developer, I would like it when players put their ideas and desires for games forward.  It's not like I was demanding that they make it, I was asking very nicely for game developers to make a game like this.

Ibja

Gaendric said:

Will be hard to find something perfectly fitting that also has high quality, your wishes are very specific and somewhat niche.
Best bet is to place 10 million bucks on the table, then someone will produce exactly what you want.

Otherwise you will have to take whatever is up for grabs. You can't tell others how to invest their money afterall.
You already played similar games (even if they weren't up to your standards), so you kinda already did your "vote with your wallet" part. Not much else you can do other than scrape together those 10mil.

Yes, I agree they are pretty specific - but I don't think it's really niche, it just hasn't been developed beyond a niche market, and that is to say, mobile games.  And most of the games that are like this (although they have the team building aspect) draw aspects of their combat simulation (and monster collection) from Pokemon, which I don't think would be described as niche.

However, I have to admit - it would be much easier to have a game that I exactly want if I had 10 million dollars.  But until then I will have to be satisfied making a single forum post with my request and living on a dream.

SEANMCAD

Ibja said:

OP

nice Idea however my question is how would the MMO version be different from a large multiplayer version of the same thing? To be fair that is a bit of a question for all MMOs but still its a question

Gestankfaust

Ibja said:

Gestankfaust said:

Dear OP,

Learn to make your own games

If I was a game developer, I would like it when players put their ideas and desires for games forward.  It's not like I was demanding that they make it, I was asking very nicely for game developers to make a game like this.

They do that now. And yet you still won't find it. My point was kinda clear.

waynejr2

Ibja said:

Gestankfaust said:

Dear OP,

Learn to make your own games

If I was a game developer, I would like it when players put their ideas and desires for games forward.  It's not like I was demanding that they make it, I was asking very nicely for game developers to make a game like this.

You should google for why game developers don't want your game ideas.  Read many of the search results.  That should convince you or at least answer your why.

Ibja

waynejr2 said:

Ibja said:

Gestankfaust said:

Dear OP,

Learn to make your own games

If I was a game developer, I would like it when players put their ideas and desires for games forward.  It's not like I was demanding that they make it, I was asking very nicely for game developers to make a game like this.

You should google for why game developers don't want your game ideas.  Read many of the search results.  That should convince you or at least answer your why.

I did a lot of googling.  The most common answer I found was that I should be careful posting my ideas because game developers might steal them and not pay me (and here's hoping for that!).  And that game companies sometimes get scared of legal action when they develop games based off other people's ideas.

I also found lots of advice and procedures for formally pitching video game ideas to developers, because its common enough and developers like it enough that people ACTUALLY do it all the time and ideas that they like get taken and developed.  

In your favor, I found two blogposts about why game developers don't like taking outside ideas.  Although these posts seemed contradictory to 6 pages of google results in my favor, I have to admit, they did have some valid points in them, but they weren't convincing enough (or supported with any evidence except that bloggers personal opinion) to make me think that game developers don't want to know what gamers want.SEANMCAD said:

Ibja said:

OP

nice Idea however my question is how would the MMO version be different from a large multiplayer version of the same thing? To be fair that is a bit of a question for all MMOs but still its a question

I am not sure I know the difference between those two things - but my point is that I think there should be a multiplayer option.  Would you consider a game like Diablo 3 to be a "large multiplayer" game instead of an MMO?  Is that the kind of difference you mean?  

If so, I would be okay with that size of multiplayer in a game like I am suggesting.

Quizzical

DMKano said:

It would take a lot more than 10 mil to do it right.

This actually seems to me as the sort of thing that could be done on the cheap.  He's not demanding top end graphics, thousands of fully voiced quests, a widely known IP, or a linear time solution to an NP hard problem.  You could do it with cheap graphics, cheap sound, cheap lore, cheap everything.  How popular such a game would be is a different concern.

The core of the game is how to make writing scripts to control your character's actions interesting, without making the game trivial, impossible, or have a ridiculously long learning curve.  That would be tricky, but it strikes me as the sort of thing that one top-notch programmer could pull off, and not need a team of dozens of artists.

waynejr2

Ibja said:

waynejr2 said:

Ibja said:

Gestankfaust said:

Dear OP,

Learn to make your own games

If I was a game developer, I would like it when players put their ideas and desires for games forward.  It's not like I was demanding that they make it, I was asking very nicely for game developers to make a game like this.

You should google for why game developers don't want your game ideas.  Read many of the search results.  That should convince you or at least answer your why.

I did a lot of googling.  The most common answer I found was that I should be careful posting my ideas because game developers might steal them and not pay me (and here's hoping for that!). 

I am going to tell you right now that is just stupid.  You haven't been googling the right thing if you googled anything at all.  More likely you got that impression from reading forums.

Quizzical

Ibja said:

waynejr2 said:

Ibja said:

Gestankfaust said:

Dear OP,

Learn to make your own games

If I was a game developer, I would like it when players put their ideas and desires for games forward.  It's not like I was demanding that they make it, I was asking very nicely for game developers to make a game like this.

You should google for why game developers don't want your game ideas.  Read many of the search results.  That should convince you or at least answer your why.

I did a lot of googling.  The most common answer I found was that I should be careful posting my ideas because game developers might steal them and not pay me (and here's hoping for that!).  And that game companies sometimes get scared of legal action when they develop games based off other people's ideas.

I also found lots of advice and procedures for formally pitching video game ideas to developers, because its common enough and developers like it enough that people ACTUALLY do it all the time and ideas that they like get taken and developed.  

In your favor, I found two blogposts about why game developers don't like taking outside ideas.  Although these posts seemed contradictory to 6 pages of google results in my favor, I have to admit, they did have some valid points in them, but they weren't convincing enough (or supported with any evidence except that bloggers personal opinion) to make me think that game developers don't want to know what gamers want.SEANMCAD said:

Ibja said:

OP

nice Idea however my question is how would the MMO version be different from a large multiplayer version of the same thing? To be fair that is a bit of a question for all MMOs but still its a question

I am not sure I know the difference between those two things - but my point is that I think there should be a multiplayer option.  Would you consider a game like Diablo 3 to be a "large multiplayer" game instead of an MMO?  Is that the kind of difference you mean?  

If so, I would be okay with that size of multiplayer in a game like I am suggesting.

There's a huge difference between an idea for a new game and an idea that fits within an existing game that is already being created.  You only have one or a few core ideas of what a game is going to be about, but actually making the game requires filling any many thousands of details, and that takes a ton of ideas that fit in with an existing game.  Developers commonly are open to considering the latter for a game they're already working on, but the former is a much tougher sell.  So of course what most players want to offer is the former.

Professional game developers have ideas for their own games, too.  They have more ideas than they can actually make.  And they nearly always like their own ideas better than your ideas.  That's why their ideas are their ideas and your ideas are not their ideas.  That doesn't mean your ideas are bad; it only means that most people like what they like better than what someone else likes.

You've at least got the right idea that you shouldn't worry about developers stealing your ideas.  Not only is there basically no risk of it happening, but even if it did happen and they make exactly the game you want, how is that a bad thing?  Sometimes people say they have ideas but won't tell anyone for fear that they'll be stolen.

Ibja

Quizzical said:

Ibja said:

waynejr2 said:

Ibja said:

Gestankfaust said:

Dear OP,

Learn to make your own games

If I was a game developer, I would like it when players put their ideas and desires for games forward.  It's not like I was demanding that they make it, I was asking very nicely for game developers to make a game like this.

You should google for why game developers don't want your game ideas.  Read many of the search results.  That should convince you or at least answer your why.

I did a lot of googling.  The most common answer I found was that I should be careful posting my ideas because game developers might steal them and not pay me (and here's hoping for that!).  And that game companies sometimes get scared of legal action when they develop games based off other people's ideas.

I also found lots of advice and procedures for formally pitching video game ideas to developers, because its common enough and developers like it enough that people ACTUALLY do it all the time and ideas that they like get taken and developed.  

In your favor, I found two blogposts about why game developers don't like taking outside ideas.  Although these posts seemed contradictory to 6 pages of google results in my favor, I have to admit, they did have some valid points in them, but they weren't convincing enough (or supported with any evidence except that bloggers personal opinion) to make me think that game developers don't want to know what gamers want.SEANMCAD said:

Ibja said:

OP

nice Idea however my question is how would the MMO version be different from a large multiplayer version of the same thing? To be fair that is a bit of a question for all MMOs but still its a question

I am not sure I know the difference between those two things - but my point is that I think there should be a multiplayer option.  Would you consider a game like Diablo 3 to be a "large multiplayer" game instead of an MMO?  Is that the kind of difference you mean?  

If so, I would be okay with that size of multiplayer in a game like I am suggesting.

There's a huge difference between an idea for a new game and an idea that fits within an existing game that is already being created.  You only have one or a few core ideas of what a game is going to be about, but actually making the game requires filling any many thousands of details, and that takes a ton of ideas that fit in with an existing game.  Developers commonly are open to considering the latter for a game they're already working on, but the former is a much tougher sell.  So of course what most players want to offer is the former.

Professional game developers have ideas for their own games, too.  They have more ideas than they can actually make.  And they nearly always like their own ideas better than your ideas.  That's why their ideas are their ideas and your ideas are not their ideas.  That doesn't mean your ideas are bad; it only means that most people like what they like better than what someone else likes.

You've at least got the right idea that you shouldn't worry about developers stealing your ideas.  Not only is there basically no risk of it happening, but even if it did happen and they make exactly the game you want, how is that a bad thing?  Sometimes people say they have ideas but won't tell anyone for fear that they'll be stolen.

I think you are exactly right, and if I was a game developer, I'd probably make games from my own ideas as well.  On the flip side, if you look at MOBA games, that core idea (DOTA on WC3) didn't come from any of the league of legends developers, any of blizzards developers, or any developers at a major company.  And they are all making those games now.

I think games very close to what I want are out there right now - read, I mentioned Summoner's War already, but you can look at app stores (and even a few games on steam) for games that are like this.

I guess my point is, what I am asking isn't a small market.  

But I also didn't come to MMORPG forums to realistically expect a game developer to read my post and say, "I'm starting this now, it'll be done by Friday!" type of thing.  I came to put my gaming desires out into the universe, like so many other posts on this website.  And to hear what other people had to say, although I guess I should expect some of the weirdly negative posts lol.   My realistic hope is that regardless of whether I made this post, a game like this has already crossed the mind of a developer out there, and I wouldn't doubt it if it had.  

Gaendric

Quizzical is spot on.
Any decent experienced game designer has more quality, polished and situationally aware concepts than they will be able to implement. 
Most likely folders of documents saved on their harddrives, full of ideas, thoughts and raw concepts for all the different market segments, genres and whatnot. 
And those concepts most likely take game design fundamentals, the market situation, technical developments, attainable funding and team sizes of the company, monetization, target audiences, etc into account.

I highly doubt random player ideas with no context whatsoever would cut it in comparison.
Sure, weird things happen all the time, but we have to talk about the norm, not the one-in-a-million.
Game development has matured, it's not about having a "lucky punch" idea anymore. Not for decades. It's all about implementation. From the design phase to the tech to the media.
Ideas are like sand on a beach until you implement them. Everything is iterative and based on older ideas anyway. 

waynejr2

Quizzical said:

Ibja said:

waynejr2 said:

Ibja said:

Gestankfaust said:

Dear OP,

Learn to make your own games

If I was a game developer, I would like it when players put their ideas and desires for games forward.  It's not like I was demanding that they make it, I was asking very nicely for game developers to make a game like this.

You should google for why game developers don't want your game ideas.  Read many of the search results.  That should convince you or at least answer your why.

I did a lot of googling.  The most common answer I found was that I should be careful posting my ideas because game developers might steal them and not pay me (and here's hoping for that!).  And that game companies sometimes get scared of legal action when they develop games based off other people's ideas.

I also found lots of advice and procedures for formally pitching video game ideas to developers, because its common enough and developers like it enough that people ACTUALLY do it all the time and ideas that they like get taken and developed.  

In your favor, I found two blogposts about why game developers don't like taking outside ideas.  Although these posts seemed contradictory to 6 pages of google results in my favor, I have to admit, they did have some valid points in them, but they weren't convincing enough (or supported with any evidence except that bloggers personal opinion) to make me think that game developers don't want to know what gamers want.SEANMCAD said:

Ibja said:

OP

nice Idea however my question is how would the MMO version be different from a large multiplayer version of the same thing? To be fair that is a bit of a question for all MMOs but still its a question

I am not sure I know the difference between those two things - but my point is that I think there should be a multiplayer option.  Would you consider a game like Diablo 3 to be a "large multiplayer" game instead of an MMO?  Is that the kind of difference you mean?  

If so, I would be okay with that size of multiplayer in a game like I am suggesting.

There's a huge difference between an idea for a new game and an idea that fits within an existing game that is already being created.  You only have one or a few core ideas of what a game is going to be about, but actually making the game requires filling any many thousands of details, and that takes a ton of ideas that fit in with an existing game.  Developers commonly are open to considering the latter for a game they're already working on, but the former is a much tougher sell.  So of course what most players want to offer is the former.

Professional game developers have ideas for their own games, too.  They have more ideas than they can actually make.  And they nearly always like their own ideas better than your ideas.  That's why their ideas are their ideas and your ideas are not their ideas.  That doesn't mean your ideas are bad; it only means that most people like what they like better than what someone else likes.

You've at least got the right idea that you shouldn't worry about developers stealing your ideas.  Not only is there basically no risk of it happening, but even if it did happen and they make exactly the game you want, how is that a bad thing?  Sometimes people say they have ideas but won't tell anyone for fear that they'll be stolen.

I think gamers think that developers get hired and get to put into a game anything they want to.  Game devs do have ideas.  More ideas than they will ever get to use in a game.  Some of them spend a lot of time in development hoping that one of their 'original' ideas gets used.  Sure, sometimes it happens, but frequently you are a code monkey.  Now big named gamed developers get hired to make those choices but those aren't the regular line guys.

Gestankfaust

Just funny why people post threads and just ignore what people say

Gaendric

Ibja said:

I think games very close to what I want are out there right now - read, I mentioned Summoner's War already, but you can look at app stores (and even a few games on steam) for games that are like this.

I guess my point is, what I am asking isn't a small market.  

But I also didn't come to MMORPG forums to realistically expect a game developer to read my post and say, "I'm starting this now, it'll be done by Friday!" type of thing.  I came to put my gaming desires out into the universe, like so many other posts on this website.  And to hear what other people had to say, although I guess I should expect some of the weirdly negative posts lol.   My realistic hope is that regardless of whether I made this post, a game like this has already crossed the mind of a developer out there, and I wouldn't doubt it if it had.  

That's a fair point.
It's not a random idea, but something that has been proven to work in a different market.
So the question is if it would translate well to the MMO space. 

Personally, I'd surely try it.
I don't necessarily need action to be happy, would enjoy slow strategic combat that is heavily based on planning and strategy. If it has depth, I'm in.

waynejr2

Gestankfaust said:

Just funny why people post threads and just ignore what people say

Well, some people think their ideas are so great that people are going to steal them and change the industry.   Think of it as their ideas are diamonds that they poop when really they just have poop for brains.  Ideas are really a dime a dozen.

Ibja

waynejr2 said:

Gestankfaust said:

Just funny why people post threads and just ignore what people say

Well, some people think their ideas are so great that people are going to steal them and change the industry.   Think of it as their ideas are diamonds that they poop when really they just have poop for brains.  Ideas are really a dime a dozen.

Who did I ignore in this thread?  Anyone?  Has anyone in this thread said that their ideas were diamonds that they poop?  What are you even talking about?