Impossible to eliminate , And you assume much in this post .. Most is ignore worthy ....
But simply i participated in everyhting UO had to offer everyhting you mentioned and more and there is alot of fun .. Dont get me wrong , I love the game and it is best , .. But they are all there.. as i pointed out ... And to participate in Faction wars , Britanianian War Council etc .. you first must grind all these things .. or you are nothing more than a corpse on the field very qwikly .. UO is a grind .. A very fun grind that also included some of the best Social aspects of gaming .. But dont tell me you were nt chopping trees or Mining to raise Str .. Grinding all the way watching the #s move ... Or Scribing for magic resist thousands of scrolls .. or wreslting a bear for hours on end .. Or Hiding over over over .. All grinds .. Farm Liche Lords for Karma .. etc all grind ..
The only way to remove grind in any sense at all is FUN ... period the /end if a game is fun the "grind " is not noticed... Have you ever leveled in a game and didnt see it coming at all .. Thst when the grind is Gone and the only way to remove it ...
So UO is a grind .. the best disguised grind , but a grind all the same ...
Hello, ok now we are getting somewhere better.
To me it was not grind, bacause the goal for me was not to max skills etc, the goal was to have fun following and animating the life of my character in that virtual world, the fun was from its interaction inthat world with other chartacters. So its skills got maxed through every day activity over time having fun, in a very intuitive way reflecting how we do things in real life.
You say:
"... And to participate in Faction wars , Britanianian War Council etc .. you first must grind all these things .. "
When I read this statement of yours I think that there is a condition here because the true goal is not to participate and have fun but the true goal in your mind is to win. Participation is not about Winning or Losing. Participation is about taking part in and having fun, win or Lose.
Therefore, I disagree. I would involve everyone in activities like these, especially new players. Because it is about havng fun.
But if you look at everything from the narrow point of view of Winning and Losing, and your goal is to always strive to Win then yes you will make the game all about Grind, bacause you will addopt a mechanical way of playing "I have to do this before I can do that etc etc"...
And this dear Sir, is the Crux of the issue here. Themeparks, of which the OP refers to in this thread, are designed with that mechanical minding, to cater to players like you, who play in that way.
They divide the evolution in to Levels and establish goal to attain for completion step by step. While this "progression" is not designed in to UO. It has skills and each skill has a progression curve but there is no established progression for a character. You dop not "Have to", you can do "Whatever" you choose to do and still have fun and exist in the real and participate in all of the fun and interaction. You are not blocked from going anywhere, because the Mobs there are higher level than what you are.
The problem is that in reality not everyone plays that way, but because there is no other choice offered in the industry and since the industry has chosen to go the EQ way rather than the UO way in many design aspects (this is well documented), everyone is forced in to that way of playing, and some of us react towards it because it is nonsensical to play like that it is boring it is mundane, it is repetitve and mindnumbing, ther eis no meaningfull purpose other than Leveling through numbers and in some cases (WoW) through gear too. But overall this experience in the long run is not fullfilling or fun.
And he OP is making same realisations, and thee OP actually represents many other people who may not necessarilly have tasted a different way and is actually, within his own view of reality, proposing ofr change! Becayuse, the OP is having the same empty filling out of his experience with this mechanical approach to having fun. He feels the dullness he feels the boaringness of the repetition over time. Andthat is an emotional problem that the Game industry has chosen to ignore. And since, there is a solution to it, go the other way., the UO way.
Mind you to someone like me, the solution is evident bacause the problem the OP expresses is not new.
In my view the OP is asking for a return to the original parth, yet today, it maybe more suitable to say, the OP is asking for a Reboot of the Genre to be able to addopt a different design paradigm.
Cheers!
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
How can developers replace the level grind progression model for MMORPGs?
Make the gameplay an adventure! (Not a dumb theme park visit.)
Instead of focusing on having players leveling up linearly in various ways (scaled content and features), better try have players task themselves to meet the challenges of the game in a non linear fashion, that isn't some linear leveling hell.
For example: • Remember to first find food when needed, and then remember to bring food wherever you go. • A backpack can only carry so many things. Deciding on what to carry with you becomes important to focusing on what you want to do. If you can make use of a car's inventory as well, great, though same problem again. • Have the game environment require both awareness and interaction, not letting the environment just being a shallow theme park set.
FFS, devs, this isn't rocket science. I could sit here and design various games all day long!
How will new skills be learned? I suggest having implied skills, based on what items/equipment you have at any point in time. E.g. Get into a helicopter, and start flying. Pick up an axe, to axe down a tree. Or, whenever doing some particular action, instead of steady progress increase, every period of action offer a slight (random) chance of improvement, and even less chance of random improvement. So, you didn't get lucky and skilled up? Tough luck. Suck it up.
How would items/gear work? I think a mix of items/quipment and composite equipment is a good thing. E.g a mix of fuel and leafblower to make a leafblower to work.
You are thinking solutions, and you are on the right path, IMO, the UO path as it would have evolved today is very much what you suggested here
Evolving from a list of Skills to choose from towards Implied skills that raise automatically depedning on what the player chooses to use or wear or do with his/her character in the virtual world.
The point is that it is possible and has been possible since the beggining. The industry chose to go the other way...for some reason...which I am sure has little to do with Player fun and more to do with Investor Fun..and in time the other way got forgotten and people simply do not know why it is the way it is anymore and just follow the flow...
Cheers!
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Developers need to come up with other ways to challenge players
aside from long level grinds and similar time sinks if they want a successful
MMORPG these days.
What needs to be done is to rethink how a MMORPG should work. The current model that almost every game uses
is focused on a progressive grind to a cap. The system itself creates much of the repetition and boredom that so many complain about.
The first issue is how to make a level free game challenging and interesting:
It isn't the late 90's early 2000's anymore.
We have much better computers and adaptive AI. Can't they make a game
that generates a unique dungeon based on the skill level of the party
that enters it (like a more modern version of Anarchy Online's
random mission generator)? Can they not have a boss AI that is
programmed to anticipate player attack patterns and change its own
strategy to compensate like a computer chess game does?
A game
with something like that would require real talent and true skill to be
among the top players. Grinding tens of thousands of easy mobs for many
hours each day (sometimes with a bot or autoclicker while watching a
series on netflix) to get skills up and/or farm gold to buy the best gear then googling a dungeon walkthrough video to succeed wouldn't be enough anymore.
I think we can agree there are some very good ways to make a game challenging without leveling or a long grind of any kind. If you have good ones please share
The question then is how do we measure progress or advancement in a game that is without levels or grinding:
One way is to not have much progress at all. Endgame players and newbies are almost the same aside from personal knowledge of the game and the items and skills they choose to have. But that's more like avoiding the problem instead of addressing it. Obviously it is a bad idea to just hand everything to a new player right away... I don't have any ideas on how to do this yet. If you do I'd like to hear them.
...How will new skills be learned?
Skills could be learned by seeing them used enough (like if a monster keeps countering your attacks you learn to counter like that too). There could be textbooks and skill trainers for basic skills too. As long as the learning method makes sense I'm sure it will work. I'd also like for players to be able to teach skills to other players. Much of how skill learning is done would depend on the game itself. How would you do it? ...How would items/gear work?
Obviously you can't have level-based items in a game without levels. In the real world you can use any item as long as it is available, you have the money to buy it or have a way to obtain it, and you're strong enough to physically wear/carry/wield it. My idea would be to make a system that mimics reality a little better than the traditional "you can't use that level 50 warrior sword because you're a level 25 mage". any thoughts?
---------------- There is so much more that needs considered for this. It requires reinventing the concept of MMORPG progression entirely. That isn't an easy thing to do. If it can be done the right way I think it could be just the thing to rekindle interest in the MMORPG genre.
AS a gamer for 30 years who turned developer I see both sides, but one main issue today is you can never make everyone happy, to many people today more so find any reason to complain and like something different....That is one of the biggest issues....Also all these mechanics and nice graphics aren't cheap...Then people complain they want the game done faster...Many of us developers work 14-16 hour days and never seen our familys..Developers do not get any respect...This is why many AAA companies are closing....To costly since many people also want it all and do NOT want to PAY!~!!
"Grind" is defined differently by different players. One player's "grind" is another player's "fun."
Basically anything done repeatedly can be called a "grind." Going to school everyday for 13 years can be a grind. Going to work everyday for 50 years can be a grind. Gathering materials for crafting can be a "grind." Getting individual skills raised can be a "grind." Going from town to town can be a "grind."
The only way around it is this: Everyone is a soldier. Everyone has access to the same weapons on the battlefield. Everyone is equal and can never improve, except via weapons used. In other words, if you don't want a "grind", there is a whole genre at the ready: First Person Shooters, though even they are incorporating some forms of character advancement, too.
The "other way" to get passed "the grind" is too accept it and find ways to make it enjoyable, usually by playing with others where group chat can be fun.
Dangit, I forgot. MMOs are now solo games. Nevermind...
Yeah exactly MMOs are solo games.. But you see this is part of the issue here. MMOs are solo games because this is an inherent result of the design paradigm followed to its evolution today...
To change this the design paradigm has to be changed.
As for what is considered grind I disagree, for the reasons I have expressed above in my reply to Scorchien.
Now an important notion that you raise with your statement saying
"The "other way" to get passed "the grind" is too accept it and find ways to make it enjoyable, usually by playing with others where group chat can be fun."
This is a conformist way to say, "Accept it this is how all games are, find ways to have fun regardless".
The truth is that games doe snot have to be as they are and again this is why the OP is raisingthat question and is triving to actually come up with ways to change the "Status Quo". And Ia gree with the OP, this Status Quo is the problem to solve.
Games can be different. Games can be designed Differently. And this, unlike the OP, is not a Hypothetical statement, because I has exprerienced the difference and so have some of you in the very thread.
There are other issues with players again, as pointed out in my reply to Scorchien, the ways that players choose to approach things.
Yet even that statement implies that there is a choice to be made in the first place, and that depends on the GAme design. The games the OP plays do not offer that choice, everyone must follow the only way. While the real Other way is to design the game which offers the choice for all players to progress according to their own terms. And thsi is what the UO design paradign offered.
Again someone allong the way decided that it was better (for them) to not offer that choice to the player.
However, the conclusion remains, that it is possible it has been done and can be done again to offer that choice to the player which is again, what the OP really is asking for.
Cheers!
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
They just need to make grinding more fun. For instance, I had a lot of fun mob grinding in Diablo 2 due to the randomness of loot. There was always that small chance of scoring a killer item. It was awesome. In most MMOs, however, loot is extremely redundant and typical.
One thing would be to give players different roles: a merchant, a master crafter, an expedition leader, a soldier, a mage, a scout, a large prey hunter, a farmer, a fisherman, a carpenter, a masonry foreman etc.
Creating some kind of interdependence is what makes an mmo imo. Making enough proficiencys is important. If there are only a few roles and few profession that is bland. That's when the games focus starts to shift to combat and devs start to design all kinds of meaningless combat mechanics to try to make it look cool. Then you know your game has no depth.
Talking about games where thousands of players exist simultaneously in a single instance and mechanics related to such games.
It can be replaced by what you get to equip your character with, and ways to upgrade that stuff. Make things like dodge, block, dive, roll etc baseline, so improving with them is actually the player skill getting better at it, not a number raising. Something along these lines could replace the old ways.
As for what is considered grind I disagree, for the reasons I have expressed above in my reply to Scorchien.
We are at an impasse since you believe that you can define what a "grind" is for me. Or anyone else, for that matter. The first step is admitting that not everyone finds the same exact levels of fun in any one particular activity. Once someone realizes this, then solutions can be looked at.
Once this is figured out, then games will go back to targeting specific audiences instead the "mass appeal" attempts being made these days.
I dont think 'level grind' is the issue. I think enough playable content evenly distrubuted among the levels then nobody would care about gaining levels other than those type A personalities with unresolved history
People will care about leveling as along as end game is big. End game will be big as long as MMORPG are long term. Levels will be an obstacles to end game and rushed through.
I believe in renewable content, player content and procedural content. Levelless small vertical progression. That way its always something going on new and content is not out leveled or funneled through. You then put less pressure on developer content.
case in point to my example. There are games that do not have levels and yet people are highly engaged in them.
If the game has a ton of content that is distrubuted evenly in the game then level grinding becomes less of an issue. Thinking of a game with levels in which people dont care too much about it would be Wurm Unlimited (NOT wurm online). In that game I do what I do because I need or want to do it not because I need to level grind and by the time I am done with what I 'want' to do I already increased in my level.
That is an example of a game that has content well distributed out in a way that level grinding is not something many people care about.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I think there is a great opportunity, for involving the player into the gameplay, in such a way, that a player will not only have to task him-/herself, but also aquire a sense of episodic experience of the game, so as to actually come to appreciate the gameplay way beyond the point at which a player might find some things trivial and/or boring. Survival based games would at the very least have it easy for encouraging an investment into your character, if done properly I think. Though THIS IS NOT ABOUT BEING A FREAKING HERO, it would be something cerebral, not a fucking stupid gimmick pushed by ill advised game developers.
AS a gamer for 30 years who turned developer I see both sides, but one main issue today is you can never make everyone happy, to many people today more so find any reason to complain and like something different....That is one of the biggest issues....Also all these mechanics and nice graphics aren't cheap...Then people complain they want the game done faster...Many of us developers work 14-16 hour days and never seen our familys..Developers do not get any respect...This is why many AAA companies are closing....To costly since many people also want it all and do NOT want to PAY!~!!
There is a solution for the last Not pay part..go back to subscription model. WoW is still not F2P...and people go back to it and many millions still play with a sub. End the madness of the hated microtransaction stores...or turn them all about cosmetics.
Also, stop making games that pit everyone in to the same progression lane and expect everyone to do the same steps, and then try to make it longer to force people to Pay..end that madness too.
As for people wanting everything or at least much variety then switch to truly sandbox open ended games and sop the themepark repetitive monotonous game design.
Not everyone has the same view of the same progression curve and not everyone wants to be a hero. So stop assuming that this is the case. Again, look towards sandbox open ended design, themepark cannot provide the variety people want.
As for what is considered grind I disagree, for the reasons I have expressed above in my reply to Scorchien.
We are at an impasse since you believe that you can define what a "grind" is for me. Or anyone else, for that matter. The first step is admitting that not everyone finds the same exact levels of fun in any one particular activity. Once someone realizes this, then solutions can be looked at.
Once this is figured out, then games will go back to targeting specific audiences instead the "mass appeal" attempts being made these days.
Actually, we agree on your first statement we are all in an impasse since Developers believe that can define what is "grind" for all of us. This is exactly what I explained in my previous replies, one person's view of progression is different than another's and it also impacts the decision to participate in various activities. We are both just saying the same thing in our own different ways
As for mass appeal, well, here we diverge a bit. I think that it is possible to have mass appeal, however, the design has to cater to the masses.
The problem we are having with MMO's today expressed by the OP here in this thread is that while the MMOS target through their marketing mass appeal their designs are made for specific audience. This explains why there is always a big influx of players come launch day and then it is downhill from there...to a certain stability..that stability point of population being the audience the design really appeals to. Imo.
So in order for the mass appeal to happen really the game should have a different focus than a ride in a themepark it has to offer variety of game play and roles the players can assume according to player preference and the only design imo that can offer that is the sandbox open ended one. Where the gameplay is emergent because the players assume the roles they really desire and have fun with in their own accord and are not show boxed to what was intended by the devs or the game.
Again..imho..and gaming experience and observation of myself and others.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
The problem is that MMORPGs are too deeply rooted in all manners of progression for the sake of retaining players. So in order to "fix the problem" it ends up becoming a different genre, like survival games and roguelikes which are more about rapid progression rather than long term progression. Those types of games would also break if large scale multiplayer existed.
More games like Crowfall and others could be the a different direction, and departure of traditional MMORPGs, with a softer impact of power growth in progression but there will still need to be a form of long term progression ("grind") for player retention.
I don't know if anyone else had the opportunity but I remember playing on private server for an old MMORPG that had something like 20-40x XP gains. I was able to level up in a months time it would normally take a year or more. Was it fun? For a while, but I quickly lost interest in the game entirely. Taking the grind out guaranteed I'd leave the game 20x sooner.
Comments
To me it was not grind, bacause the goal for me was not to max skills etc, the goal was to have fun following and animating the life of my character in that virtual world, the fun was from its interaction inthat world with other chartacters. So its skills got maxed through every day activity over time having fun, in a very intuitive way reflecting how we do things in real life.
You say:
"... And to participate in Faction wars , Britanianian War Council etc .. you first must grind all these things .. "
When I read this statement of yours I think that there is a condition here because the true goal is not to participate and have fun but the true goal in your mind is to win. Participation is not about Winning or Losing. Participation is about taking part in and having fun, win or Lose.
Therefore, I disagree. I would involve everyone in activities like these, especially new players. Because it is about havng fun.
But if you look at everything from the narrow point of view of Winning and Losing, and your goal is to always strive to Win then yes you will make the game all about Grind, bacause you will addopt a mechanical way of playing "I have to do this before I can do that etc etc"...
And this dear Sir, is the Crux of the issue here. Themeparks, of which the OP refers to in this thread, are designed with that mechanical minding, to cater to players like you, who play in that way.
They divide the evolution in to Levels and establish goal to attain for completion step by step. While this "progression" is not designed in to UO. It has skills and each skill has a progression curve but there is no established progression for a character. You dop not "Have to", you can do "Whatever" you choose to do and still have fun and exist in the real and participate in all of the fun and interaction. You are not blocked from going anywhere, because the Mobs there are higher level than what you are.
The problem is that in reality not everyone plays that way, but because there is no other choice offered in the industry and since the industry has chosen to go the EQ way rather than the UO way in many design aspects (this is well documented), everyone is forced in to that way of playing, and some of us react towards it because it is nonsensical to play like that it is boring it is mundane, it is repetitve and mindnumbing, ther eis no meaningfull purpose other than Leveling through numbers and in some cases (WoW) through gear too.
But overall this experience in the long run is not fullfilling or fun.
And he OP is making same realisations, and thee OP actually represents many other people who may not necessarilly have tasted a different way and is actually, within his own view of reality, proposing ofr change!
Becayuse, the OP is having the same empty filling out of his experience with this mechanical approach to having fun. He feels the dullness he feels the boaringness of the repetition over time. Andthat is an emotional problem that the Game industry has chosen to ignore. And since, there is a solution to it, go the other way., the UO way.
Mind you to someone like me, the solution is evident bacause the problem the OP expresses is not new.
In my view the OP is asking for a return to the original parth, yet today, it maybe more suitable to say, the OP is asking for a Reboot of the Genre to be able to addopt a different design paradigm.
Cheers!
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Evolving from a list of Skills to choose from towards Implied skills that raise automatically depedning on what the player chooses to use or wear or do with his/her character in the virtual world.
The point is that it is possible and has been possible since the beggining. The industry chose to go the other way...for some reason...which I am sure has little to do with Player fun and more to do with Investor Fun..and in time the other way got forgotten and people simply do not know why it is the way it is anymore and just follow the flow...
Cheers!
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
To change this the design paradigm has to be changed.
As for what is considered grind I disagree, for the reasons I have expressed above in my reply to Scorchien.
Now an important notion that you raise with your statement saying
"The "other way" to get passed "the grind" is too accept it and find ways to make it enjoyable, usually by playing with others where group chat can be fun."
This is a conformist way to say, "Accept it this is how all games are, find ways to have fun regardless".
The truth is that games doe snot have to be as they are and again this is why the OP is raisingthat question and is triving to actually come up with ways to change the "Status Quo". And Ia gree with the OP, this Status Quo is the problem to solve.
Games can be different. Games can be designed Differently. And this, unlike the OP, is not a Hypothetical statement, because I has exprerienced the difference and so have some of you in the very thread.
There are other issues with players again, as pointed out in my reply to Scorchien, the ways that players choose to approach things.
Yet even that statement implies that there is a choice to be made in the first place, and that depends on the GAme design. The games the OP plays do not offer that choice, everyone must follow the only way. While the real Other way is to design the game which offers the choice for all players to progress according to their own terms. And thsi is what the UO design paradign offered.
Again someone allong the way decided that it was better (for them) to not offer that choice to the player.
However, the conclusion remains, that it is possible it has been done and can be done again to offer that choice to the player which is again, what the OP really is asking for.
Cheers!
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Creating some kind of interdependence is what makes an mmo imo. Making enough proficiencys is important. If there are only a few roles and few profession that is bland. That's when the games focus starts to shift to combat and devs start to design all kinds of meaningless combat mechanics to try to make it look cool. Then you know your game has no depth.
Once this is figured out, then games will go back to targeting specific audiences instead the "mass appeal" attempts being made these days.
VG
If the game has a ton of content that is distrubuted evenly in the game then level grinding becomes less of an issue. Thinking of a game with levels in which people dont care too much about it would be Wurm Unlimited (NOT wurm online). In that game I do what I do because I need or want to do it not because I need to level grind and by the time I am done with what I 'want' to do I already increased in my level.
That is an example of a game that has content well distributed out in a way that level grinding is not something many people care about.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I think there is a great opportunity, for involving the player into the gameplay, in such a way, that a player will not only have to task him-/herself, but also aquire a sense of episodic experience of the game, so as to actually come to appreciate the gameplay way beyond the point at which a player might find some things trivial and/or boring. Survival based games would at the very least have it easy for encouraging an investment into your character, if done properly I think. Though THIS IS NOT ABOUT BEING A FREAKING HERO, it would be something cerebral, not a fucking stupid gimmick pushed by ill advised game developers.
Also, stop making games that pit everyone in to the same progression lane and expect everyone to do the same steps, and then try to make it longer to force people to Pay..end that madness too.
As for people wanting everything or at least much variety then switch to truly sandbox open ended games and sop the themepark repetitive monotonous game design.
Not everyone has the same view of the same progression curve and not everyone wants to be a hero. So stop assuming that this is the case. Again, look towards sandbox open ended design, themepark cannot provide the variety people want.
Actually, we agree on your first statement we are all in an impasse since Developers believe that can define what is "grind" for all of us. This is exactly what I explained in my previous replies, one person's view of progression is different than another's and it also impacts the decision to participate in various activities. We are both just saying the same thing in our own different ways
As for mass appeal, well, here we diverge a bit. I think that it is possible to have mass appeal, however, the design has to cater to the masses.
The problem we are having with MMO's today expressed by the OP here in this thread is that while the MMOS target through their marketing mass appeal their designs are made for specific audience. This explains why there is always a big influx of players come launch day and then it is downhill from there...to a certain stability..that stability point of population being the audience the design really appeals to. Imo.
So in order for the mass appeal to happen really the game should have a different focus than a ride in a themepark it has to offer variety of game play and roles the players can assume according to player preference and the only design imo that can offer that is the sandbox open ended one. Where the gameplay is emergent because the players assume the roles they really desire and have fun with in their own accord and are not show boxed to what was intended by the devs or the game.
Again..imho..and gaming experience and observation of myself and others.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
More games like Crowfall and others could be the a different direction, and departure of traditional MMORPGs, with a softer impact of power growth in progression but there will still need to be a form of long term progression ("grind") for player retention.
I don't know if anyone else had the opportunity but I remember playing on private server for an old MMORPG that had something like 20-40x XP gains. I was able to level up in a months time it would normally take a year or more. Was it fun? For a while, but I quickly lost interest in the game entirely. Taking the grind out guaranteed I'd leave the game 20x sooner.