I don't care for developer written "stories" in MMO. I'm a bit more tolerant of stories forced down my throat in single player games, but I don't play those anymore. Some lore on the side with optional quests, would be fine. Ultimately MMO's should be a dangerous virtual world that I get thrown into.
I really really don't like forced linear stories/questing in MMO's.
I don't care for developer written "stories" in MMO. I'm a bit more tolerant of stories forced down my throat in single player games, but I don't play those anymore. Some lore on the side with optional quests, would be fine. Ultimately MMO's should be a dangerous virtual world that I get thrown into.
I really really don't like forced linear stories/questing in MMO's.
I do not think stories belong in games and I have an essay worth of detailed information as to why I think they should not be in games and why they (the stories) will always be better if they are not in the game but instead as stand alone content
That is how strongly I feel about it
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I often like linear content these days as I'm not a fan of the GPS system and linear single player games are often the only ones that don't use it. These games usually have a better story as well.
Non linear games are fun if there is no GPS system in place, no exclamation marks, and don't have something to kill or loot every few steps. Basically I like the exploration aspect of it and the fact that travel feels like real travel would in certain old time periods.
I don't care for developer written "stories" in MMO. I'm a bit more tolerant of stories forced down my throat in single player games, but I don't play those anymore. Some lore on the side with optional quests, would be fine. Ultimately MMO's should be a dangerous virtual world that I get thrown into.
I really really don't like forced linear stories/questing in MMO's.
I do like the notion that the world causes you to band together. Sadly most MMORPG are flat difficulty and not only story driven but hero/instanced/phased driven.
An example of non-linear story telling is already in use in GW2's dynamic events. The lessons learned: Very time consuming to make. And most of those even chains had only Pass or Fail end states. I hope we'd see a system where we'd have more events with atleast 3 end states so that those chains could possibly fork and even form webs of events.
No doubt such webs would be even more expensive to make than GW2's dynamic events.
I think the best way to go about it is to have a procedurally generated system. Having a pool of scenarios that can be link generating a story could work. It would have to a big pool or they would get repetitive fast.
For a simple example you have quest A. Quest A has 2 choices. Choice A1 will give you a random scenario from 1-100. Choice A2 will gives you 101-200. You choose option A and get scenario 45. 45 has 2 options A and B with 15 random scenarios each.
A system like this can be expanded with adding scenarios. Problem comes into methods of expanding scenarios to fit you and NPC involved. Also making sure each connection makes sense. Lots of scenarios so it doesn't seem like you are given the same quest over and over.
Or we could use that many scenarios to make 3 000 quests with 2 scenarios each.
Your system doesn't help with the problem at all.
To make pure non-linear quest you would have to have something procedural or it would developer based linear. The best we have now are linear quest in non-linear order.
What I am describing is just have scenarios in a pool. For example you have a quest NPC farmer Joe. He can give starting scenarios from Framer quest. Lets say for pure example 1-100. You see Joe flagging you down. You talk to him. You get scenario 45 which is mole people in his cellar. You fight the mole creatures and find a cave. Entering the cave gives you again pure example 1-50 scenarios that can link with the previous scenario. 2 gives you for example mole people were driven up by a drake in the tunnel. 32 gives you the Mole King sent them raiding. 49 gives you scenario where you are up against necromancers disturbing the underworld.
That's one of the few ways you can have non-linear content minus real AI making stories.
An example of non-linear story telling is already in use in GW2's dynamic events. The lessons learned: Very time consuming to make. And most of those even chains had only Pass or Fail end states. I hope we'd see a system where we'd have more events with atleast 3 end states so that those chains could possibly fork and even form webs of events.
No doubt such webs would be even more expensive to make than GW2's dynamic events.
I think the best way to go about it is to have a procedurally generated system. Having a pool of scenarios that can be link generating a story could work. It would have to a big pool or they would get repetitive fast.
For a simple example you have quest A. Quest A has 2 choices. Choice A1 will give you a random scenario from 1-100. Choice A2 will gives you 101-200. You choose option A and get scenario 45. 45 has 2 options A and B with 15 random scenarios each.
A system like this can be expanded with adding scenarios. Problem comes into methods of expanding scenarios to fit you and NPC involved. Also making sure each connection makes sense. Lots of scenarios so it doesn't seem like you are given the same quest over and over.
Or we could use that many scenarios to make 3 000 quests with 2 scenarios each.
Your system doesn't help with the problem at all.
To make pure non-linear quest you would have to have....
In my view to make a 'pure non-linear quest' would be to not make a quest at all.
Example: Real player talking to real player 'hey bob we want to build a catapult so we can breakdown that wall and get into that acient cave but we need a ton of materials to make it and its all different. some will be easy to get some will require to travel far and search for it, some will require a group to get it done but in a few weeks all together I think we can do it'
'now that is a non-quest quest!'
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
An example of non-linear story telling is already in use in GW2's dynamic events. The lessons learned: Very time consuming to make. And most of those even chains had only Pass or Fail end states. I hope we'd see a system where we'd have more events with atleast 3 end states so that those chains could possibly fork and even form webs of events.
No doubt such webs would be even more expensive to make than GW2's dynamic events.
I think the best way to go about it is to have a procedurally generated system. Having a pool of scenarios that can be link generating a story could work. It would have to a big pool or they would get repetitive fast.
For a simple example you have quest A. Quest A has 2 choices. Choice A1 will give you a random scenario from 1-100. Choice A2 will gives you 101-200. You choose option A and get scenario 45. 45 has 2 options A and B with 15 random scenarios each.
A system like this can be expanded with adding scenarios. Problem comes into methods of expanding scenarios to fit you and NPC involved. Also making sure each connection makes sense. Lots of scenarios so it doesn't seem like you are given the same quest over and over.
I'm not a fan of procedurally generated content. Its the poor quality. Procedurally generated maps work well. Procedurally generated story? -I don't see it working.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
An example of non-linear story telling is already in use in GW2's dynamic events. The lessons learned: Very time consuming to make. And most of those even chains had only Pass or Fail end states. I hope we'd see a system where we'd have more events with atleast 3 end states so that those chains could possibly fork and even form webs of events.
No doubt such webs would be even more expensive to make than GW2's dynamic events.
I think the best way to go about it is to have a procedurally generated system. Having a pool of scenarios that can be link generating a story could work. It would have to a big pool or they would get repetitive fast.
For a simple example you have quest A. Quest A has 2 choices. Choice A1 will give you a random scenario from 1-100. Choice A2 will gives you 101-200. You choose option A and get scenario 45. 45 has 2 options A and B with 15 random scenarios each.
A system like this can be expanded with adding scenarios. Problem comes into methods of expanding scenarios to fit you and NPC involved. Also making sure each connection makes sense. Lots of scenarios so it doesn't seem like you are given the same quest over and over.
I'm not a fan of procedurally generated content. Its the poor quality. Procedurally generated maps work well. Procedurally generated story? -I don't see it working.
thing is why have stories at all? If you look at the best selling games of all time its fairly easy to see those titles people are not buying because of the storyline.
Instead of trying to fit in a square peg into a round hole where it doesnt belong how about just dropping the whole concept of a developer created story and instead have the interaction of players in the game and each other form a story organically and not via code but via people talking about what happened.
The developer can even control and alter some of the outcomes based on what players do, this is what EvE has done
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
An example of non-linear story telling is already in use in GW2's dynamic events. The lessons learned: Very time consuming to make. And most of those even chains had only Pass or Fail end states. I hope we'd see a system where we'd have more events with atleast 3 end states so that those chains could possibly fork and even form webs of events.
No doubt such webs would be even more expensive to make than GW2's dynamic events.
I think the best way to go about it is to have a procedurally generated system. Having a pool of scenarios that can be link generating a story could work. It would have to a big pool or they would get repetitive fast.
For a simple example you have quest A. Quest A has 2 choices. Choice A1 will give you a random scenario from 1-100. Choice A2 will gives you 101-200. You choose option A and get scenario 45. 45 has 2 options A and B with 15 random scenarios each.
A system like this can be expanded with adding scenarios. Problem comes into methods of expanding scenarios to fit you and NPC involved. Also making sure each connection makes sense. Lots of scenarios so it doesn't seem like you are given the same quest over and over.
I'm not a fan of procedurally generated content. Its the poor quality. Procedurally generated maps work well. Procedurally generated story? -I don't see it working.
Is MMORPG content really high quality? "Hi, blah blah blah blah wolves in my field" Kill 25 wolves and bring back 10 paws.
I like the Skyrim approach. I also like when you can roam around and kill stuff then later you run into someone by chance who tells you thanks for killing those 15 creatures in that cave, and gives you rewards.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
An example of non-linear story telling is already in use in GW2's dynamic events. The lessons learned: Very time consuming to make. And most of those even chains had only Pass or Fail end states. I hope we'd see a system where we'd have more events with atleast 3 end states so that those chains could possibly fork and even form webs of events.
No doubt such webs would be even more expensive to make than GW2's dynamic events.
I think the best way to go about it is to have a procedurally generated system. Having a pool of scenarios that can be link generating a story could work. It would have to a big pool or they would get repetitive fast.
For a simple example you have quest A. Quest A has 2 choices. Choice A1 will give you a random scenario from 1-100. Choice A2 will gives you 101-200. You choose option A and get scenario 45. 45 has 2 options A and B with 15 random scenarios each.
A system like this can be expanded with adding scenarios. Problem comes into methods of expanding scenarios to fit you and NPC involved. Also making sure each connection makes sense. Lots of scenarios so it doesn't seem like you are given the same quest over and over.
I'm not a fan of procedurally generated content. Its the poor quality. Procedurally generated maps work well. Procedurally generated story? -I don't see it working.
thing is why have stories at all? If you look at the best selling games of all time its fairly easy to see those titles people are not buying because of the storyline.
Instead of trying to fit in a square peg into a round hole where it doesnt belong how about just dropping the whole concept of a developer created story and instead have the interaction of players in the game and each other form a story organically and not via code but via people talking about what happened.
The developer can even control and alter some of the outcomes based on what players do, this is what EvE has done
Do you want to aim for the niche that has a few hundred thousand players who are set to stick with Eve forever or do you want to aim for the millions who want stories and who don't currently have a game to play?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
thing is why have stories at all? If you look at the best selling games of all time its fairly easy to see those titles people are not buying because of the storyline.
Instead of trying to fit in a square peg into a round hole where it doesnt belong how about just dropping the whole concept of a developer created story and instead have the interaction of players in the game and each other form a story organically and not via code but via people talking about what happened.
The developer can even control and alter some of the outcomes based on what players do, this is what EvE has done
We're discussing MMORPGs. For 35+ years videogame RPGs have put the round peg of storyline into the round hole of RPG design.
So if anything "let's not do story" is the square peg.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
An example of non-linear story telling is already in use in GW2's dynamic events. The lessons learned: Very time consuming to make. And most of those even chains had only Pass or Fail end states. I hope we'd see a system where we'd have more events with atleast 3 end states so that those chains could possibly fork and even form webs of events.
No doubt such webs would be even more expensive to make than GW2's dynamic events.
I think the best way to go about it is to have a procedurally generated system. Having a pool of scenarios that can be link generating a story could work. It would have to a big pool or they would get repetitive fast.
For a simple example you have quest A. Quest A has 2 choices. Choice A1 will give you a random scenario from 1-100. Choice A2 will gives you 101-200. You choose option A and get scenario 45. 45 has 2 options A and B with 15 random scenarios each.
A system like this can be expanded with adding scenarios. Problem comes into methods of expanding scenarios to fit you and NPC involved. Also making sure each connection makes sense. Lots of scenarios so it doesn't seem like you are given the same quest over and over.
I'm not a fan of procedurally generated content. Its the poor quality. Procedurally generated maps work well. Procedurally generated story? -I don't see it working.
Is MMORPG content really high quality? "Hi, blah blah blah blah wolves in my field" Kill 25 wolves and bring back 10 paws.
In a generic MMORPG, no, content is not high quality. But WoW and many others have very good stories and very good handmade content in them. Dynamic events are the next step from regular quests. I see these "webs of events" as the next step from that.
We don't have to stay in the stone bronze age forever.
EDIT: Stone age was the time when we had no quests.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
An example of non-linear story telling is already in use in GW2's dynamic events. The lessons learned: Very time consuming to make. And most of those even chains had only Pass or Fail end states. I hope we'd see a system where we'd have more events with atleast 3 end states so that those chains could possibly fork and even form webs of events.
No doubt such webs would be even more expensive to make than GW2's dynamic events.
I think the best way to go about it is to have a procedurally generated system. Having a pool of scenarios that can be link generating a story could work. It would have to a big pool or they would get repetitive fast.
For a simple example you have quest A. Quest A has 2 choices. Choice A1 will give you a random scenario from 1-100. Choice A2 will gives you 101-200. You choose option A and get scenario 45. 45 has 2 options A and B with 15 random scenarios each.
A system like this can be expanded with adding scenarios. Problem comes into methods of expanding scenarios to fit you and NPC involved. Also making sure each connection makes sense. Lots of scenarios so it doesn't seem like you are given the same quest over and over.
I'm not a fan of procedurally generated content. Its the poor quality. Procedurally generated maps work well. Procedurally generated story? -I don't see it working.
thing is why have stories at all? If you look at the best selling games of all time its fairly easy to see those titles people are not buying because of the storyline.
Instead of trying to fit in a square peg into a round hole where it doesnt belong how about just dropping the whole concept of a developer created story and instead have the interaction of players in the game and each other form a story organically and not via code but via people talking about what happened.
The developer can even control and alter some of the outcomes based on what players do, this is what EvE has done
Do you want to aim for the niche that has a few hundred thousand players who are set to stick with Eve forever or do you want to aim for the millions who want stories and who don't currently have a game to play?
1. I was using Eve as an example not as the total
2. the most popular selling games of all time almost 100% of them are not story based or clearly people did not buy them as stories so yeah I think I could make more money from games without stories then with them.
3. Story based games do not sell well over the long haul, they do however have a ton of advertising and there is without question a large part of the population that will literally buy ANYTHING advertisers tell them they are supposed to like
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
An example of non-linear story telling is already in use in GW2's dynamic events. The lessons learned: Very time consuming to make. And most of those even chains had only Pass or Fail end states. I hope we'd see a system where we'd have more events with atleast 3 end states so that those chains could possibly fork and even form webs of events.
No doubt such webs would be even more expensive to make than GW2's dynamic events.
I think the best way to go about it is to have a procedurally generated system. Having a pool of scenarios that can be link generating a story could work. It would have to a big pool or they would get repetitive fast.
For a simple example you have quest A. Quest A has 2 choices. Choice A1 will give you a random scenario from 1-100. Choice A2 will gives you 101-200. You choose option A and get scenario 45. 45 has 2 options A and B with 15 random scenarios each.
A system like this can be expanded with adding scenarios. Problem comes into methods of expanding scenarios to fit you and NPC involved. Also making sure each connection makes sense. Lots of scenarios so it doesn't seem like you are given the same quest over and over.
I'm not a fan of procedurally generated content. Its the poor quality. Procedurally generated maps work well. Procedurally generated story? -I don't see it working.
Is MMORPG content really high quality? "Hi, blah blah blah blah wolves in my field" Kill 25 wolves and bring back 10 paws.
In a generic MMORPG, no, content is not high quality. But WoW and many others have very good stories and very good handmade content in them. Dynamic events are the next step from regular quests. I see these "webs of events" as the next step from that.
We don't have to stay in the stone bronze age forever.
EDIT: Stone age was the time when we had no quests.
Even the game with supposedly the best stories SWTOR has them. And my 7 day free trial of WoW in the recent expansion had quiet a bit of those kill X amount quest.
An example of non-linear story telling is already in use in GW2's dynamic events. The lessons learned: Very time consuming to make. And most of those even chains had only Pass or Fail end states. I hope we'd see a system where we'd have more events with atleast 3 end states so that those chains could possibly fork and even form webs of events.
No doubt such webs would be even more expensive to make than GW2's dynamic events.
I think the best way to go about it is to have a procedurally generated system. Having a pool of scenarios that can be link generating a story could work. It would have to a big pool or they would get repetitive fast.
For a simple example you have quest A. Quest A has 2 choices. Choice A1 will give you a random scenario from 1-100. Choice A2 will gives you 101-200. You choose option A and get scenario 45. 45 has 2 options A and B with 15 random scenarios each.
A system like this can be expanded with adding scenarios. Problem comes into methods of expanding scenarios to fit you and NPC involved. Also making sure each connection makes sense. Lots of scenarios so it doesn't seem like you are given the same quest over and over.
I'm not a fan of procedurally generated content. Its the poor quality. Procedurally generated maps work well. Procedurally generated story? -I don't see it working.
thing is why have stories at all? If you look at the best selling games of all time its fairly easy to see those titles people are not buying because of the storyline.
Instead of trying to fit in a square peg into a round hole where it doesnt belong how about just dropping the whole concept of a developer created story and instead have the interaction of players in the game and each other form a story organically and not via code but via people talking about what happened.
The developer can even control and alter some of the outcomes based on what players do, this is what EvE has done
Do you want to aim for the niche that has a few hundred thousand players who are set to stick with Eve forever or do you want to aim for the millions who want stories and who don't currently have a game to play?
1. I was using Eve as an example not as the total
2. the most popular selling games of all time almost 100% of them are not story based or clearly people did not buy them as stories so yeah I think I could make more money from games without stories then with them.
3. Story based games do not sell well over the long haul, they do however have a ton of advertising and there is without question a large part of the population that will literally buy ANYTHING advertisers tell them they are supposed to like
Funny because if i remember ,EVERY single developer tells us they have a great story and Lore.BEST SELLING?Well that would be Wow yet the next poster says Wow has great stories ...lol,so which is it,who is telling the truth?
I do know from my many games over the years,i have only seen ONE game that looked to be thought out in it's entirety with story and Lore and content.ALL other games to me look like the devs just wing it as they go,example this GW2 team using the phrase "living story" i have to really laugh at marketing ploys like that.
How do i judge a game and it's design and story and Lore?Easy,i play it and then ask myself,can i remember any of it,did it all seem to fit together,OR was it just a series of lame content designed to patch you from one area to the next and quests just tossed together to feed the xp treadmill.
What ever excuse devs are using,the bottom line is game design has been fast and lazy and story telling has been patched together with no coherent design.I absolutely lol and felt sad at the same time when i see SOOO many fooled by SWTOR.They ran the exact same idea on both good and evil sides>>>>>conspiracy and one after another,with NOTHING leading anywhere at all,just some new conspiracy pops up our of nowhere lmao,,,sigh amateur story ..slash game design.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Is MMORPG content really high quality? "Hi, blah blah blah blah wolves in my field" Kill 25 wolves and bring back 10 paws.
When someone points out that A's quality exceeds B (on the very logical grounds that one is hand-crafted and the other procedural) it doesn't matter what the absolute measure of A's quality is.
Beyond that, the fair comparison is comparing the best procedural content with the best hand-crafted content. So if you have evidence of better procedural questing than this (spoiler warning: Legion WW Monk) then you're welcome to post it. But bringing up the worst-possible hand-crafted questing doesn't make a case for your argument.
(*Disclaimer: I only watched enough of that video to get the sense that it was typical WOW questing -- and therefore way more involved than the "blahblah" textbox experience you're describing. I didn't want to spoil it for myself, and it's certainly possible (given Legion was in alpha or beta when he recorded) that the vid shows goofy bugs.)
So the argument rests upon evidence: either you're wrong and can't show evidence of procedural questing being more interesting than the example provided, or you're right and the evidence will show that.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Funny because if i remember ,EVERY single developer tells us they have a great story and Lore.BEST SELLING?Well that would be Wow yet the next poster says Wow has great stories ...lol,so which is it,who is telling the truth?
I do know from my many games over the years,i have only seen ONE game that looked to be thought out in it's entirety with story and Lore and content.ALL other games to me look like the devs just wing it as they go,example this GW2 team using the phrase "living story" i have to really laugh at marketing ploys like that.
How do i judge a game and it's design and story and Lore?Easy,i play it and then ask myself,can i remember any of it,did it all seem to fit together,OR was it just a series of lame content designed to patch you from one area to the next and quests just tossed together to feed the xp treadmill.
What ever excuse devs are using,the bottom line is game design has been fast and lazy and story telling has been patched together with no coherent design.I absolutely lol and felt sad at the same time when i see SOOO many fooled by SWTOR.They ran the exact same idea on both good and evil sides>>>>>conspiracy and one after another,with NOTHING leading anywhere at all,just some new conspiracy pops up our of nowhere lmao,,,sigh amateur story ..slash game design.
I am going to say it again
if you look at the best selling games of all time nearly all of them either have no story or clearly people did not buy the game for the story.
do you seriously think most people play WoW because of the story?
Also, what people say they want and what they ACTUALLY play are not always the same thing. Often they just repeat what marketing told them they want, buy the game, then end up actually playing something else
aka. what a person actually does is not always the same as what they say they want to do
also, developer who focused heavy on marketing like story based games because they have a defined end. meaning you will want to buy the followup or something else from the collection
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Axehilt said: ...the fair comparison is comparing the best procedural content with the best hand-crafted content. So if you have evidence of better procedural questing than this ...
Your best example of authored storytelling is a person running around punching things, to a plot that's apparently inconsequential enough that the player will ramble over it the entire time?
Yeah...I'm gonna stock my hope in the potential of future technology doing us better.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Is MMORPG content really high quality? "Hi, blah blah blah blah wolves in my field" Kill 25 wolves and bring back 10 paws.
When someone points out that A's quality exceeds B (on the very logical grounds that one is hand-crafted and the other procedural) it doesn't matter what the absolute measure of A's quality is.
Beyond that, the fair comparison is comparing the best procedural content with the best hand-crafted content. So if you have evidence of better procedural questing than this (spoiler warning: Legion WW Monk) then you're welcome to post it. But bringing up the worst-possible hand-crafted questing doesn't make a case for your argument.
(*Disclaimer: I only watched enough of that video to get the sense that it was typical WOW questing -- and therefore way more involved than the "blahblah" textbox experience you're describing. I didn't want to spoil it for myself, and it's certainly possible (given Legion was in alpha or beta when he recorded) that the vid shows goofy bugs.)
So the argument rests upon evidence: either you're wrong and can't show evidence of procedural questing being more interesting than the example provided, or you're right and the evidence will show that.
1. I am giving the most common quest. You can't just claim the few above and beyond quest are near the norm. Talking about MMORPG in general and even WoW/SWTOR is littered with them.
2. Minus AI all scenarios for a procedural done quest are hand done. The quality would depend on the developer just like a regular game. How well the scenarios are written. How many there are. How well they can chain them together.
1. I am giving the most common quest. You can't just claim the few above and beyond quest are near the norm. Talking about MMORPG in general and even WoW/SWTOR is littered with them.
2. Minus AI all scenarios for a procedural done quest are hand done. The quality would depend on the developer just like a regular game. How well the scenarios are written. How many there are. How well they can chain them together.
Your derpy text ("blahblah") and that simplest-possible goal was nowhere close to "the most common quest", nor would a reasonable person use a Pinto as their evidence that Cars are Worse Than [Some Other Transportation]. You don't cherry-pick the worst possible example to actually know the truth of which one is better -- not unless you're an emotional, irrational fool anyway. Instead, you pick either the best or the average example and compare both things fairly.
So if you want to fairly compare the average quest (which is better than "blahblah" and 25 wolves) against the average procedural experience, go for it.
Procedural elements are all hand-done, but because they're churned through a procedure the actual experience is consistently below the quality of content that's been hand-crafted straight through. Turns out designing a robot to tell a story is harder than telling a story; who knew!
Randomized quest selection mostly just introduces the risk of repeating the same quest. Or if you eliminate random quests then it's just a story whose order makes no sense (and really dang close to typical questing.) Branching quests just dramatically cut down on the total amount of content a game offers (just a single branching point for each quest will literally cut a game's quest count in half!)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Depends on the game itself most of the time. I prefer a mix of both. I don't mind quest hubs but I do enjoy finding quest out in the open that you wouldn't run across doing a linear path. I like games that give you reasons to go back to lower level areas to do stuff so that all the work they put into the game isn't wasted on a single level group where you never go back.
An example of non-linear story telling is already in use in GW2's dynamic events. The lessons learned: Very time consuming to make. And most of those even chains had only Pass or Fail end states. I hope we'd see a system where we'd have more events with atleast 3 end states so that those chains could possibly fork and even form webs of events.
No doubt such webs would be even more expensive to make than GW2's dynamic events.
I think the best way to go about it is to have a procedurally generated system. Having a pool of scenarios that can be link generating a story could work. It would have to a big pool or they would get repetitive fast.
For a simple example you have quest A. Quest A has 2 choices. Choice A1 will give you a random scenario from 1-100. Choice A2 will gives you 101-200. You choose option A and get scenario 45. 45 has 2 options A and B with 15 random scenarios each.
A system like this can be expanded with adding scenarios. Problem comes into methods of expanding scenarios to fit you and NPC involved. Also making sure each connection makes sense. Lots of scenarios so it doesn't seem like you are given the same quest over and over.
I'm not a fan of procedurally generated content. Its the poor quality. Procedurally generated maps work well. Procedurally generated story? -I don't see it working.
Is MMORPG content really high quality? "Hi, blah blah blah blah wolves in my field" Kill 25 wolves and bring back 10 paws.
In a generic MMORPG, no, content is not high quality. But WoW and many others have very good stories and very good handmade content in them. Dynamic events are the next step from regular quests. I see these "webs of events" as the next step from that.
We don't have to stay in the stone bronze age forever.
EDIT: Stone age was the time when we had no quests.
Even the game with supposedly the best stories SWTOR has them. And my 7 day free trial of WoW in the recent expansion had quiet a bit of those kill X amount quest.
Yeah, those games have filler content. Nearly every game does. Its not representative of all the content in the game, however. And it doesn't have to be that way.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
An example of non-linear story telling is already in use in GW2's dynamic events. The lessons learned: Very time consuming to make. And most of those even chains had only Pass or Fail end states. I hope we'd see a system where we'd have more events with atleast 3 end states so that those chains could possibly fork and even form webs of events.
No doubt such webs would be even more expensive to make than GW2's dynamic events.
I think the best way to go about it is to have a procedurally generated system. Having a pool of scenarios that can be link generating a story could work. It would have to a big pool or they would get repetitive fast.
For a simple example you have quest A. Quest A has 2 choices. Choice A1 will give you a random scenario from 1-100. Choice A2 will gives you 101-200. You choose option A and get scenario 45. 45 has 2 options A and B with 15 random scenarios each.
A system like this can be expanded with adding scenarios. Problem comes into methods of expanding scenarios to fit you and NPC involved. Also making sure each connection makes sense. Lots of scenarios so it doesn't seem like you are given the same quest over and over.
Or we could use that many scenarios to make 3 000 quests with 2 scenarios each.
Your system doesn't help with the problem at all.
To make pure non-linear quest you would have to have something procedural or it would developer based linear. The best we have now are linear quest in non-linear order.
What I am describing is just have scenarios in a pool. For example you have a quest NPC farmer Joe. He can give starting scenarios from Framer quest. Lets say for pure example 1-100. You see Joe flagging you down. You talk to him. You get scenario 45 which is mole people in his cellar. You fight the mole creatures and find a cave. Entering the cave gives you again pure example 1-50 scenarios that can link with the previous scenario. 2 gives you for example mole people were driven up by a drake in the tunnel. 32 gives you the Mole King sent them raiding. 49 gives you scenario where you are up against necromancers disturbing the underworld.
That's one of the few ways you can have non-linear content minus real AI making stories.
Sounds great and boring at the same time! It's the same simple questing we've all done before but mashed together. It's also a great way to give players something to do in an otherwise pointless world of wandering monsters.
I'm not really for quest delivered story in MMORPGs but it did at least give more story context behind the scenes and during via cutscenes than old job generators (SWG, AO) did. Now, I'm open to generated content but it's going to need to be much more complex. Perhaps in another 20 years when AI is much more advanced that it can create a story with meaning, relevance, or permanence.
I don't care for developer written "stories" in MMO. I'm a bit more tolerant of stories forced down my throat in single player games, but I don't play those anymore. Some lore on the side with optional quests, would be fine. Ultimately MMO's should be a dangerous virtual world that I get thrown into.
I really really don't like forced linear stories/questing in MMO's.
I do not think stories belong in games and I have an essay worth of detailed information as to why I think they should not be in games and why they (the stories) will always be better if they are not in the game but instead as stand alone content
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I really really don't like forced linear stories/questing in MMO's.
That is how strongly I feel about it
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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Non linear games are fun if there is no GPS system in place, no exclamation marks, and don't have something to kill or loot every few steps. Basically I like the exploration aspect of it and the fact that travel feels like real travel would in certain old time periods.
What I am describing is just have scenarios in a pool. For example you have a quest NPC farmer Joe. He can give starting scenarios from Framer quest. Lets say for pure example 1-100. You see Joe flagging you down. You talk to him. You get scenario 45 which is mole people in his cellar. You fight the mole creatures and find a cave. Entering the cave gives you again pure example 1-50 scenarios that can link with the previous scenario. 2 gives you for example mole people were driven up by a drake in the tunnel. 32 gives you the Mole King sent them raiding. 49 gives you scenario where you are up against necromancers disturbing the underworld.
That's one of the few ways you can have non-linear content minus real AI making stories.
Example:
Real player talking to real player
'hey bob we want to build a catapult so we can breakdown that wall and get into that acient cave but we need a ton of materials to make it and its all different. some will be easy to get some will require to travel far and search for it, some will require a group to get it done but in a few weeks all together I think we can do it'
'now that is a non-quest quest!'
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I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
If you look at the best selling games of all time its fairly easy to see those titles people are not buying because of the storyline.
Instead of trying to fit in a square peg into a round hole where it doesnt belong how about just dropping the whole concept of a developer created story and instead have the interaction of players in the game and each other form a story organically and not via code but via people talking about what happened.
The developer can even control and alter some of the outcomes based on what players do, this is what EvE has done
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I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
So if anything "let's not do story" is the square peg.
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We don't have to stay in the stone bronze age forever.
EDIT: Stone age was the time when we had no quests.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
2. the most popular selling games of all time almost 100% of them are not story based or clearly people did not buy them as stories so yeah I think I could make more money from games without stories then with them.
3. Story based games do not sell well over the long haul, they do however have a ton of advertising and there is without question a large part of the population that will literally buy ANYTHING advertisers tell them they are supposed to like
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I do know from my many games over the years,i have only seen ONE game that looked to be thought out in it's entirety with story and Lore and content.ALL other games to me look like the devs just wing it as they go,example this GW2 team using the phrase "living story" i have to really laugh at marketing ploys like that.
How do i judge a game and it's design and story and Lore?Easy,i play it and then ask myself,can i remember any of it,did it all seem to fit together,OR was it just a series of lame content designed to patch you from one area to the next and quests just tossed together to feed the xp treadmill.
What ever excuse devs are using,the bottom line is game design has been fast and lazy and story telling has been patched together with no coherent design.I absolutely lol and felt sad at the same time when i see SOOO many fooled by SWTOR.They ran the exact same idea on both good and evil sides>>>>>conspiracy and one after another,with NOTHING leading anywhere at all,just some new conspiracy pops up our of nowhere lmao,,,sigh amateur story ..slash game design.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Beyond that, the fair comparison is comparing the best procedural content with the best hand-crafted content. So if you have evidence of better procedural questing than this (spoiler warning: Legion WW Monk) then you're welcome to post it. But bringing up the worst-possible hand-crafted questing doesn't make a case for your argument.
(*Disclaimer: I only watched enough of that video to get the sense that it was typical WOW questing -- and therefore way more involved than the "blahblah" textbox experience you're describing. I didn't want to spoil it for myself, and it's certainly possible (given Legion was in alpha or beta when he recorded) that the vid shows goofy bugs.)
So the argument rests upon evidence: either you're wrong and can't show evidence of procedural questing being more interesting than the example provided, or you're right and the evidence will show that.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
if you look at the best selling games of all time nearly all of them either have no story or clearly people did not buy the game for the story.
do you seriously think most people play WoW because of the story?
Also, what people say they want and what they ACTUALLY play are not always the same thing. Often they just repeat what marketing told them they want, buy the game, then end up actually playing something else
aka. what a person actually does is not always the same as what they say they want to do
also, developer who focused heavy on marketing like story based games because they have a defined end. meaning you will want to buy the followup or something else from the collection
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Yeah...I'm gonna stock my hope in the potential of future technology doing us better.
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2. Minus AI all scenarios for a procedural done quest are hand done. The quality would depend on the developer just like a regular game. How well the scenarios are written. How many there are. How well they can chain them together.
So if you want to fairly compare the average quest (which is better than "blahblah" and 25 wolves) against the average procedural experience, go for it.
Procedural elements are all hand-done, but because they're churned through a procedure the actual experience is consistently below the quality of content that's been hand-crafted straight through. Turns out designing a robot to tell a story is harder than telling a story; who knew!
Randomized quest selection mostly just introduces the risk of repeating the same quest. Or if you eliminate random quests then it's just a story whose order makes no sense (and really dang close to typical questing.) Branching quests just dramatically cut down on the total amount of content a game offers (just a single branching point for each quest will literally cut a game's quest count in half!)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I'm not really for quest delivered story in MMORPGs but it did at least give more story context behind the scenes and during via cutscenes than old job generators (SWG, AO) did. Now, I'm open to generated content but it's going to need to be much more complex. Perhaps in another 20 years when AI is much more advanced that it can create a story with meaning, relevance, or permanence.
I think you want a game that is not an mmoRPG.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"