So apparently players exist to fund hair salons in Korea

holdenhamlet

The announcement of going P2W was pretty baffling to me, especially how they are implementing it, until I read this about Kakao (formally Daum):

http://theinvestor.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20160720001024

"The game business appears intended as a temporary cash cow."

I do not think they will make more money long-term by going p2w.  By implementing p2w, it's very clear they will lose tons of players.  By implementing a cap on sales, it seems to me they will lose whales as well, since they will still lose unless they grind a lot on top of paying the maximum amount per week.  This will leave a desolate landscape catering only to whales with a lot of free time- a very small percentage of players since if you have money to burn, you probably don't have tons of free time.

But after reading that article, the announcement makes sense.  They will not make more money long-term, but that doesn't matter because THERE IS NO LONG-TERM intended.  They are making what they can from games now before they shift their focus to "offline investments", such as hair salons, taxi services, and housekeeping services.

***

Do not support the implementation of p2w.  Do not be part of a stepping stone for a company that is planning on abandoning their gaming investment.

We players play MMOs for the long-term, not to be bait-and-switched after just a few months.  We should expect and demand that our developers and publishers provide honest and adequate services for years.

Ikeda

Possibly a dumb question:  

I get it, Asia sells things, they make more money over there.  Take what works there and bring it here (ignoring cultural differences).

But are their items there as expensive income ratio wise?  Because it seems like here, things are stupid expensive to begin with.  And over there, perhaps this is ignorance, they have less free money to waste on intagibles.  (not all, but a bit)

Warlyx

u cant use "Asia", becaus N.Korea is like black and S.Korea is white , and dont get me started in China or Japan , the Asia cultures are so different....that is like living in the other side of the globe every time u change country , they are close but the societies, the quality of life and culture are different.

OT: the company probably had this Mmorpg to get some cash in order to start completly different bussines ...its a risk , u have to put some $$$ , u can fail and lose , or win tons more in 2-3 years, and then shut it down or keep on life support (if still generates revenue) and keep expanding...doesnt mean u create more mmorpgs.... u can do with the $$$ whatever u want

GeezerGamer

holdenhamlet said:

The announcement of going P2W was pretty baffling to me, especially how they are implementing it, until I read this about Kakao (formally Daum):

http://theinvestor.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20160720001024

"The game business appears intended as a temporary cash cow."

I do not think they will make more money long-term by going p2w.  By implementing p2w, it's very clear they will lose tons of players.  By implementing a cap on sales, it seems to me they will lose whales as well, since they will still lose unless they grind a lot on top of paying the maximum amount per week.  This will leave a desolate landscape catering only to whales with a lot of free time- a very small percentage of players since if you have money to burn, you probably don't have tons of free time.

But after reading that article, the announcement makes sense.  They will not make more money long-term, but that doesn't matter because THERE IS NO LONG-TERM intended.  They are making what they can from games now before they shift their focus to "offline investments", such as hair salons, taxi services, and housekeeping services.

***

Do not support the implementation of p2w.  Do not be part of a stepping stone for a company that is planning on abandoning their gaming investment.

We players play MMOs for the long-term, not to be bait-and-switched after just a few months.  We should expect and demand that our developers and publishers provide honest and adequate services for years.

Except that it's B2P. Player retention is not really the name of the game.

holdenhamlet

"Just like other P2W games have not died, neither will Black Desert after this change- this will increase their revenue stream and they'll simply make more money."

I question your assumptions, as usual, but moreover I'm not sure why you seem so elated about a game focusing less on player retention or quality and more on maximum short term profits.

Are you invested in these companies?  You just get a boner when companies screw people for quick cash?

holdenhamlet

"The market says P2W, market performance confirms overwhelming that P2W works"

Why is Overwatch doing so well?  Why did WoW do so well for a decade with a sub-only model?  Blizzard built an empire without using p2w.

Maybe if you're a small time operation with small time goals, p2w is the way to go.  Or a big operation with goals of opening hair salons.

Regardless, your focusing entirely on the dev's standpoint.  While it's true p2w MMOs don't "die", they become hobbling husks of their former selves.  They are not fun to play for most people, and as players (I assume you are one), that is what we should be concerned about.

Uhwop

holdenhamlet said:

"Just like other P2W games have not died, neither will Black Desert after this change- this will increase their revenue stream and they'll simply make more money."

I question your assumptions, as usual, but moreover I'm not sure why you seem so elated about a game focusing less on player retention or quality and more on maximum short term profits.

Are you invested in these companies?  You just get a boner when companies screw people for quick cash?

Because they care more about gaining an advantage than they do about whether or not enough people are around to support core features of a game. 

Some people think that if a company makes more money it's ok for the game, and never realize that you can have more money and an unhealthy population that breaks key elements of a game, like competitive pvp sieges. 

They just want to be at the top and they don't care if that means getting to the top of an underpopulated game that can't sustain enough people to make worthwhile central gameplay elements. 

Narcissism is the pursuit of gratification from vanity or egotistic admiration of one's own attributes.

LIOKI

I dunno...the games not even really that good. Why care so much?

p89989

remember what i said about that $30 entry price being a cash grab? now you can see where im coming from with that point of view. it's so PA can pull this on us any time, they knew we would buy into the hype, and once they got their money, they wanted to milk the market more.
you should never put that much trust into a developer or publisher, cuz when they do wrong, it goes south quick

p89989

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

p89989 said:

remember what i said about that $30 entry price being a cash grab? now you can see where im coming from with that point of view. it's so PA can pull this on us any time, they knew we would buy into the hype, and once they got their money, they wanted to milk the market more.
you should never put that much trust into a developer or publisher, cuz when they do wrong, it goes south quick

Oh no! People paid $30 and got 6 months of fun with free updates. The world is ending...

woah i wouldn't go that far, sure the BDO ship has sprung a leak and starts to sink, doesn't mean world's ending

Solar_Prophet

Pay to win generates more revenue. Funny enough, it's usually the people who whine the loudest about it that wind up spending the most money on P2W items. Go figure. 

DMKano said:
Daum posted this on Jan 15 - about 6 weeks prior to launch:

http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/8038-pm-diary-22-cash-shop-and-more/



Seems like they are simply following a business plan that they shared with everyone - so how is this bait and switch exactly?

Launch phase is over - now we are at that "later phase" - seems pretty clear to me

Nice find! No bait and switch here. Their implementation is exactly how it's described here, from what I've read. Too bad, so sad. 

ceratop001

Having a good time cannot be sold. Making money will never make you happy. Happiness and having fun has to be inside you.

Kyleran

OP is underestimating the importance of good hair in S. Korea, and cosmetics as well.

Reportedly one of the societies more concerned about looks than most.

Albatroes

ceratop001 said:

Having a good time cannot be sold. Making money will never make you happy. Happiness and having fun has to be inside you.

Eharmony begs to differ. They supposedly sell fun, happiness and love. Supposedly...

H0urg1ass

It's really sad when a game does something so ridiculous that it's biggest defenders decide that enough is enough.

Kyleran said:

OP is underestimating the importance of good hair in S. Korea, and cosmetics as well.

Reportedly one of the societies more concerned about looks than most.

You'd think that, but I've had my hair cut in about 15 different countries and India was by far the most critical of my appearance.  No shit, this dude put wax on a stick and tried to shove it up my nose cause he said that nose hair was unsightly.  Fuuuuuck that.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Nilden

Best game ever, best era for PC gaming ever!

holdenhamlet

"It's really sad when a game does something so ridiculous that it's biggest defenders decide that enough is enough."

I'm still a big fan of the game, but I won't be playing it anymore if this change goes through.

P2W is bad enough, but it's especially bad in BDO.  Endgame is strictly about pvp.  In other p2w MMOs, you can say "Well, who cares if someone bought amazing gear and can clear dungeons faster, that doesn't affect my dungeon runs."  BDO doesn't have dungeons.  PVE is just grinding.

Grinding is fine if you feel like you're working towards something, but when everything your working towards can just be bought, there's just no point.

Haven't played BDO today for the first time since I started.  It's all really sad, but maybe it's OK for me personally.  I was getting really invested in the game and it's never good to get addicted to an MMO.

Sovrath

holdenhamlet said:

But after reading that article, the announcement makes sense.  They will not make more money long-term, but that doesn't matter because THERE IS NO LONG-TERM intended.  

From what I understand, mmo's aren't meant to be "long term" games. They like to open up as many servers as possible, get as much money as possible and then move on to the next game. At least in the East with most free to play games.

Sovrath

DMKano said:

Players don't understand that so called "p2w" models make bank-

Here's a post from  official forums of someone (user name Paladine) who gets it - rare to see these days:

He probably "gets it" because he works in a company that understand these things (or owns one). This is the type of stuff I see every day at my company, we are "very big" into KPI's.

The thing with players is that they have problems with the "video games are a business" part and still think of them as something developers do in their own time as a hobby "for the love of it".

Bad.dog

holdenhamlet said:

"It's really sad when a game does something so ridiculous that it's biggest defenders decide that enough is enough."

I'm still a big fan of the game, but I won't be playing it anymore if this change goes through.

Really ? What difference does it really make to you if the folks killing you are whales, no-lifers or basement trolls ? If it takes 80 hours a week of playing or $ 150 a week of spending to be in the top 10% who cares ,,,not me . There are folks complaining in the forums about this game becoming P2W who also claim to have spent 1000, 2000  and even 5000 already in the cash shop and now they are calling this pay to win ?

LOL lets face it the normal gamer spends 30-100 dollars ...plays a B2P game to avoid the idiotic F2P crowd and hopes no hacker or gold seller or other form of low life asshat ruins their fun .I'll play until the games no fun or I find something better to play in the meantime I'll experience BDO to the fullest

Azaron_Nightblade

Solar_Prophet said:

Pay to win generates more revenue. Funny enough, it's usually the people who whine the loudest about it that wind up spending the most money on P2W items. Go figure. 

DMKano said:
Daum posted this on Jan 15 - about 6 weeks prior to launch:

http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/8038-pm-diary-22-cash-shop-and-more/



Seems like they are simply following a business plan that they shared with everyone - so how is this bait and switch exactly?

Launch phase is over - now we are at that "later phase" - seems pretty clear to me

Nice find! No bait and switch here. Their implementation is exactly how it's described here, from what I've read. Too bad, so sad. 

Generally, yes. They are the 1% that simply can't stand NOT being the best. And that absolutely loathes the thought of someone even getting closer to their awesomeness.

Kyleran

blueturtle13 said:

Kyleran said:

OP is underestimating the importance of good hair in S. Korea, and cosmetics as well.

Reportedly one of the societies more concerned about looks than most.

Depends on the District you live in and are from. Just like most Western countries.

I was basing this off of articles such as these regarding S Koren men wearing more makeup than anywhere in the world. 

http://money.cnn.com/2015/10/04/news/south-korea-men-cosmetics/

https://medium.com/cuepoint/why-k-pop-has-korean-men-wearing-makeup-21501bd8b0cf#.z75l4r10h

https://www.quora.com/South-Korea-Does-the-idea-of-vanity-exist-in-the-Korean-culture

https://i-d.vice.com/en_us/article/how-koreas-male-beauty-obsession-is-challenging-gender-norms

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Tiller

This is still funny, and it is not pay to win. Not sure what people think other folks are "winning". Pay to whine maybe.

holdenhamlet

Sovrath said:

DMKano said:

Players don't understand that so called "p2w" models make bank-

Here's a post from  official forums of someone (user name Paladine) who gets it - rare to see these days:

He probably "gets it" because he works in a company that understand these things (or owns one). This is the type of stuff I see every day at my company, we are "very big" into KPI's.

The thing with players is that they have problems with the "video games are a business" part and still think of them as something developers do in their own time as a hobby "for the love of it".

I have zero problems with a company making games to make money.  I do not think this move will make them more money long-term (possibly even medium-term).

They'll make more money in like 2 weeks with the move.  That's about it imo.

This thread is to inform people that they do not care.  They are planning on shifting focus away from gaming. 

Players should not invest in a game that a company is no longer planning on investing in, because they are bound to be dissapointed.