Grind to win is worse than pay to win.

Quizzical

In the early days of MMORPGs, it was common that whoever spends the most time grinding something stupid gets the best gear, the highest levels, or whatever.  More recently, it has become common that whoever spends the most money gets the best gear.  I'm not a fan of the latter, but the former is even worse.  Publishers often prefer pay to win over grind to win because it makes them more money.

I'm sure you've heard it said that time is money.  But if that is so, then why do billionaires get old and die?  They had plenty of money, but ran out of time because it's not the same thing as money.  Rather, time can be converted to money (get a job), but not the other way around.  Time, not money, is the precious resource in life.

Pay to win tries to lay claim on your money.  It's reasonable to dislike that.  But grind to win tries to claim your time, which is even worse.  Ultimately, either of them is a pretty good reason to quit a game and find another.  But grind to win is more insidious and harder to spot, as it's much easier to keep track of exactly how much money something costs than how much time.

All of this goes out the window if the activity is fun in itself, of course.  If you're having fun, it's not grinding.  Not just hoping that it will be fun to eventually have what you're grinding for, but doing an activity for fun that you might still do even if it gave no experience or loot.  Doing what you like to do and getting in-game rewards as a bonus is the ideal situation, of course, but it's hard to design that into a game very consistently.

LacedOpium

"Grinding" is subjective.  What one player considers a "grind" and an inconvenience, another will consider a necesseary challenge and a requirement of "playing the game" and enjoyable. If you don't have time to play a game (grind), then don't play it.  It's really just that simple.

Asking for a crutch whereby a "player" (sic) is allowed to "buy" a benefit or advantage, of whatever kind, to circumvent from actually playing, earning, or otherwise putting forth the required effort of achieving and therefore fairly competing on their own merit based on their own inherent qualities, skills, and ability with another player who has actually played, earned, or otherwise put forth the required effort to achieve based on their own qualities, skills, and abilities goes against the very foundation of fair and competitive play, and a game simply not worth playing.

immodium

LacedOpium said:

"Grinding" is subjective.

So is P2W. Using money to speed up the leveling process is P2W to some. Not for me.

axtranti

Quizzical said:

In the early days of MMORPGs, it was common that whoever spends the most time grinding something stupid gets the best gear, the highest levels, or whatever.  More recently, it has become common that whoever spends the most money gets the best gear.  I'm not a fan of the latter, but the former is even worse.  Publishers often prefer pay to win over grind to win because it makes them more money.

I'm sure you've heard it said that time is money.  But if that is so, then why do billionaires get old and die?  They had plenty of money, but ran out of time because it's not the same thing as money.  Rather, time can be converted to money (get a job), but not the other way around.  Time, not money, is the precious resource in life.

Pay to win tries to lay claim on your money.  It's reasonable to dislike that.  But grind to win tries to claim your time, which is even worse.  Ultimately, either of them is a pretty good reason to quit a game and find another.  But grind to win is more insidious and harder to spot, as it's much easier to keep track of exactly how much money something costs than how much time.

All of this goes out the window if the activity is fun in itself, of course.  If you're having fun, it's not grinding.  Not just hoping that it will be fun to eventually have what you're grinding for, but doing an activity for fun that you might still do even if it gave no experience or loot.  Doing what you like to do and getting in-game rewards as a bonus is the ideal situation, of course, but it's hard to design that into a game very consistently.

Grind to win is making you play the game as intended, whereas pay to win is not making you play the game and get significant advantage over players that grind to win. P2W games die whether you like it or not community wise, look at archeage or lineage 2, the only players that are left are the whales and those whom have spent too much time that would feel like a waste if they left. I know several players in WoW that just don't want to stop playing, they played it too much already to just stop playing. 

Look at Black desert online for example, it's a huge grind but slowly turning p2w and many players being turned off by it. It's more factual that opinionated to be honest, p2w will always target big whales and inexperienced casual crowd. It's just how it is.

Nilden

I would rather earn my rewards by playing the game. 

Quizzical

axtranti said:

Quizzical said:

In the early days of MMORPGs, it was common that whoever spends the most time grinding something stupid gets the best gear, the highest levels, or whatever.  More recently, it has become common that whoever spends the most money gets the best gear.  I'm not a fan of the latter, but the former is even worse.  Publishers often prefer pay to win over grind to win because it makes them more money.

I'm sure you've heard it said that time is money.  But if that is so, then why do billionaires get old and die?  They had plenty of money, but ran out of time because it's not the same thing as money.  Rather, time can be converted to money (get a job), but not the other way around.  Time, not money, is the precious resource in life.

Pay to win tries to lay claim on your money.  It's reasonable to dislike that.  But grind to win tries to claim your time, which is even worse.  Ultimately, either of them is a pretty good reason to quit a game and find another.  But grind to win is more insidious and harder to spot, as it's much easier to keep track of exactly how much money something costs than how much time.

All of this goes out the window if the activity is fun in itself, of course.  If you're having fun, it's not grinding.  Not just hoping that it will be fun to eventually have what you're grinding for, but doing an activity for fun that you might still do even if it gave no experience or loot.  Doing what you like to do and getting in-game rewards as a bonus is the ideal situation, of course, but it's hard to design that into a game very consistently.

Grind to win is making you play the game as intended, whereas pay to win is not making you play the game and get significant advantage over players that grind to win. P2W games die whether you like it or not community wise, look at archeage or lineage 2, the only players that are left are the whales and those whom have spent too much time that would feel like a waste if they left. I know several players in WoW that just don't want to stop playing, they played it too much already to just stop playing. 

Look at Black desert online for example, it's a huge grind but slowly turning p2w and many players being turned off by it. It's more factual that opinionated to be honest, p2w will always target big whales and inexperienced casual crowd. It's just how it is.

A game where the intended way to play is to do something stupid a zillion times to advance is a bad game.

Nilden

Quizzical said:

axtranti said:

Quizzical said:

In the early days of MMORPGs, it was common that whoever spends the most time grinding something stupid gets the best gear, the highest levels, or whatever.  More recently, it has become common that whoever spends the most money gets the best gear.  I'm not a fan of the latter, but the former is even worse.  Publishers often prefer pay to win over grind to win because it makes them more money.

I'm sure you've heard it said that time is money.  But if that is so, then why do billionaires get old and die?  They had plenty of money, but ran out of time because it's not the same thing as money.  Rather, time can be converted to money (get a job), but not the other way around.  Time, not money, is the precious resource in life.

Pay to win tries to lay claim on your money.  It's reasonable to dislike that.  But grind to win tries to claim your time, which is even worse.  Ultimately, either of them is a pretty good reason to quit a game and find another.  But grind to win is more insidious and harder to spot, as it's much easier to keep track of exactly how much money something costs than how much time.

All of this goes out the window if the activity is fun in itself, of course.  If you're having fun, it's not grinding.  Not just hoping that it will be fun to eventually have what you're grinding for, but doing an activity for fun that you might still do even if it gave no experience or loot.  Doing what you like to do and getting in-game rewards as a bonus is the ideal situation, of course, but it's hard to design that into a game very consistently.

Grind to win is making you play the game as intended, whereas pay to win is not making you play the game and get significant advantage over players that grind to win. P2W games die whether you like it or not community wise, look at archeage or lineage 2, the only players that are left are the whales and those whom have spent too much time that would feel like a waste if they left. I know several players in WoW that just don't want to stop playing, they played it too much already to just stop playing. 

Look at Black desert online for example, it's a huge grind but slowly turning p2w and many players being turned off by it. It's more factual that opinionated to be honest, p2w will always target big whales and inexperienced casual crowd. It's just how it is.

A game where the intended way to play is to do something stupid a zillion times to advance is a bad game.

If you can't handle repetition boy are you in the wrong genre.

Quizzical

Nyctelios said:

It's funny how your definition of grinding is what gameplay was before quick rewards and cash shops took in.

Nonsense.  I'm not claiming that all MMORPGs from 15 years ago were pure grind.  I'm only claiming that heavy grinding used to be more common in the industry than it is now.  My definition of grinding is basically, being required to do something many more times in order to advance after you've already demonstrated that you can do it pretty consistently.  What I'm after is interesting gameplay, not quick rewards.

holdenhamlet

"Grinding" = "Playing the game"

Any game worth playing (besides games of chance) rewards investment and dedication to the game.

Any game that allows sanctioned cheating by paying money to circumvent the rules of the game is not worth playing.

The whole "Time vs. Money" argument is a crock of shit and always was.  If you don't have the time to play a game at a level you want to, then don't play the game.  Don't be a greedy asshole and ruin the game for everyone.

Money buys most things in real life.  Enjoy that and leave games to gamers.

Asm0deus

Quizzical said:

In the early days of MMORPGs, it was common that whoever spends the most time grinding something stupid gets the best gear, the highest levels, or whatever.  More recently, it has become common that whoever spends the most money gets the best gear.  I'm not a fan of the latter, but the former is even worse.  Publishers often prefer pay to win over grind to win because it makes them more money.

I'm sure you've heard it said that time is money.  But if that is so, then why do billionaires get old and die?  They had plenty of money, but ran out of time because it's not the same thing as money.  Rather, time can be converted to money (get a job), but not the other way around.  Time, not money, is the precious resource in life.

Pay to win tries to lay claim on your money.  It's reasonable to dislike that.  But grind to win tries to claim your time, which is even worse.  Ultimately, either of them is a pretty good reason to quit a game and find another.  But grind to win is more insidious and harder to spot, as it's much easier to keep track of exactly how much money something costs than how much time.

All of this goes out the window if the activity is fun in itself, of course.  If you're having fun, it's not grinding.  Not just hoping that it will be fun to eventually have what you're grinding for, but doing an activity for fun that you might still do even if it gave no experience or loot.  Doing what you like to do and getting in-game rewards as a bonus is the ideal situation, of course, but it's hard to design that into a game very consistently.

p2win is just a different form of grind2win, you just grind a real life job to grind faster in your fantasy life. 

The subjective or highly debated thing is that some people feel p2w is like using cheat engine to cheat as your using or bringing an external source to do something in a "world" that should a closed ecosystem.

rojoArcueid

Grind to Win goes hand in hand with Pay to Win. Cheap mmos are designed so you have to grind your soul to oblivion if you don't want to pay up.

If one dies, the other dies. I hope both die forever.

Fast leveling is not an issue through exp potions, the issue is making non cash shop users rely on an extremely altered progression that make the grind unbearable (decreased exp to force cash shop usage in order to stay sane)

Nilden

Asm0deus said:

Quizzical said:

In the early days of MMORPGs, it was common that whoever spends the most time grinding something stupid gets the best gear, the highest levels, or whatever.  More recently, it has become common that whoever spends the most money gets the best gear.  I'm not a fan of the latter, but the former is even worse.  Publishers often prefer pay to win over grind to win because it makes them more money.

I'm sure you've heard it said that time is money.  But if that is so, then why do billionaires get old and die?  They had plenty of money, but ran out of time because it's not the same thing as money.  Rather, time can be converted to money (get a job), but not the other way around.  Time, not money, is the precious resource in life.

Pay to win tries to lay claim on your money.  It's reasonable to dislike that.  But grind to win tries to claim your time, which is even worse.  Ultimately, either of them is a pretty good reason to quit a game and find another.  But grind to win is more insidious and harder to spot, as it's much easier to keep track of exactly how much money something costs than how much time.

All of this goes out the window if the activity is fun in itself, of course.  If you're having fun, it's not grinding.  Not just hoping that it will be fun to eventually have what you're grinding for, but doing an activity for fun that you might still do even if it gave no experience or loot.  Doing what you like to do and getting in-game rewards as a bonus is the ideal situation, of course, but it's hard to design that into a game very consistently.

p2win is just a different form of grind2win, you just grind a real life job to grind faster in your fantasy life. 

The subjective or highly debated thing is that some people feel p2w is like using cheat engine to cheat as your using or bringing an external source to do something in a "world" that should a closed ecosystem.

Instead of typing in a cheat code to spawn items you pay the company money to spawn items. Pretty obvious comparison...

Quizzical

holdenhamlet said:

"Grinding" = "Playing the game"

Any game worth playing (besides games of chance) rewards investment and dedication to the game.

Any game that allows sanctioned cheating by paying money to circumvent the rules of the game is not worth playing.

The whole "Time vs. Money" argument is a crock of shit and always was.  If you don't have the time to play a game at a level you want to, then don't play the game.  Don't be a greedy asshole and ruin the game for everyone.

Money buys most things in real life.  Enjoy that and leave games to gamers.

Some games actually try to have interesting content, and not just rely on in-game rewards to get you to do something stupid.  For example, all of the good games, and even a lot of games that aren't very good.  Playing a game should be fun, not something you have to slog through to get rewards that don't exist outside of a game that you don't even like.

LacedOpium

In the most simplest term ...

P2W = Cheating.

There really is no other way to put it.

Sovrath

LacedOpium said:

In the most simplest term ...

P2W = Cheating.

There really is no other way to put it.

It's not cheating if that is how the developers envisioned the game.

cheating means going around the rules.

Quizzical

LacedOpium said:

In the most simplest term ...

P2W = Cheating.

There really is no other way to put it.

You should try reading a post sometime before just replying to a title.  I'm not saying that pay to win is good.  Pay to win is bad.  Of course it is.  Rather, I'm saying that grind to win is even worse.

holdenhamlet

Quizzical said:

holdenhamlet said:

"Grinding" = "Playing the game"

Any game worth playing (besides games of chance) rewards investment and dedication to the game.

Any game that allows sanctioned cheating by paying money to circumvent the rules of the game is not worth playing.

The whole "Time vs. Money" argument is a crock of shit and always was.  If you don't have the time to play a game at a level you want to, then don't play the game.  Don't be a greedy asshole and ruin the game for everyone.

Money buys most things in real life.  Enjoy that and leave games to gamers.

Some games actually try to have interesting content, and not just rely on in-game rewards to get you to do something stupid.  For example, all of the good games, and even a lot of games that aren't very good.  Playing a game should be fun, not something you have to slog through to get rewards that don't exist outside of a game that you don't even like.

If you don't like the content, don't play the game???

Mendel

I never cared for the term 'grind to win'.  I vastly prefer the title 'Pay to Grind' -- it reflects the idea that a specific product simultaneously attacks both my time and my money!  Other than that minor thing, I'm with you on this @Quizzical.

Mardukk

It is truly shocking to me how many people are ok with buying in game money with RL currency.  I swear even 5 years ago it was not this accepted.  I wonder if there is something I'm missing.

I'm also confused by the OP.  I guess it all hinges on what someone considers "grinding".  MMO's and character building through at least some grinding will always be there.  Not sure how a developer could create enough content to keep people busy if there was no grinding at all.

TyranusPrime

Sorry, but I disagree.. Nothing is worse for MMOs than pay-to-win.. Pay-to-win just rewards those who have disposable income and says "hey.. your doing good in life.. have a cookie.. but that guy over there with no cash.. f that guy".. Grinding may be tedious, but at least it is a level playing field..

Vrika

LacedOpium said:

In the most simplest term ...

P2W = Cheating.

There really is no other way to put it.

It's not cheating.

It's just an agreed competition where players throw money away, and whoever throws most of his money away is declared winner.



I don't think grind to win is that much a problem. While games try to be long and encourage you to play just a bit more to get rewards, the devs also try their best to make their games fun, not grind.

Problem is when P2W is added to the equation, and the devs start designing gameplay that you don't want to play so that you'd pay money to be allowed to skip it.

Nilden

Sovrath said:

LacedOpium said:

In the most simplest term ...

P2W = Cheating.

There really is no other way to put it.

It's not cheating if that is how the developers envisioned the game.

cheating means going around the rules.

You mean the rules that all the early MMORPGs like UO, EQ AC, DAOC and even WOW set at the beginning of the genre where they banned players for this exact same behavior?

This is like going to a poker game where they sell cards. Guess what if you tried to pull this crap with poker people would call it cheating because it has established rules. It wouldn't matter if you said but this poker game sanctions selling cards.

Dauzqul

I disagree with the OP.


While grinding is certainly tedious, the sense of reward is SO much greater. Moreover, real world status should have absolutely no impact in the virtual world. These games were originally made so that people could "escape" life and experience something new, e.g., being a torn and weathered warrior, etc. If these people spend a lot more time in the game than you do, then certainly they should be more potent or powerful.

There is really no way to avoid grinding. The only thing that can be done is to make the combat / crafting / adventuring so good that it doesn't feel like grinding. I'm not a console fan, but The Force Unleashed had an amazing combat system. I could kill mobs all day with something similar to that.

iixviiiix

Should change the tittle to "play to win is worse than pay to win" .
Cause grind also one type of play , as playing is way to waste time , we should not play and we should pay . lologic

screw grind and pay to win . All those ****ing bind and gamble .
Long time ago , we play and get pay , those have money win item and we win the money . Now what ? pffft

LacedOpium

Quizzical said:

LacedOpium said:

In the most simplest term ...

P2W = Cheating.

There really is no other way to put it.

You should try reading a post sometime before just replying to a title.  I'm not saying that pay to win is good.  Pay to win is bad.  Of course it is.  Rather, I'm saying that grind to win is even worse.

MMORPG game play is all about improving and strengthening your character through its game play journey (grind). Journey in MMORPGs require putting forth an effort and going through the game's trials and tribulations, which are provided through its grind, in order to progress. Progress through that journey makes you more powerful, hence more competitive.  Paying to avoid that journey (grind) and obtaining the benefits of that journey with the mere flick of a credit card, when your competitors are actually attaining it through their own effort via their inherent qualities, skills and abilities, is the very definition of "paying to win" in MMORPG game play.  

To break it down further, "grinding to win" IS the game.  Grinding, in all of it's subjective forms, is what MMORPG game play is all about.  If you do not agree with "grinding" and are not willing to "grind to win," then don't play the game.  "Paying to win" should never even factor as a viable comparison and/or alternative to "grinding to win" in this equation. The mere attempt to compare the two promotes an air of false credence to the notion that there is a valid basis of comparison in the first place.  

cameltosis

I hate P2W - like others, I view it as cheating, it is just cheating sanctioned by the developers (because you are buying something to circumvent the game)


I also hate grinding. However, a lot of people use the term "grind" incorrectly. Just because you repeat something a lot, or something takes a long time, doesn't make it a grind. It only becomes a grind if you don't enjoy the activity itself. 



For me, whilst I'd not like to see either grind2win or pay2win, I prefer grind2win. Its a level playing field, everyone gets the same product for the same price so it is "fair" to begin with. Players are rewarded for playing the game so it is purely down to the player to determine how good or bad they are by setting out how much time they are willing to invest. However, everyone can eventually win, it'll just take some people longer than others. 

Pay2win, on the other hand, is unfair. People with money have a massive advantage over those without, and those with no money can never "win", regardless of time spent, because certain features / content / levels / items / whatever will be permanently denied them. 



In the more general sense, I do agree that time is more valuable than money but in a real world sense, it's easier to free up time to get the most out of an entertainment product than it is to free up money, especially when considering the typical demographics of gamers. Being entertainment products, time and money aren't the only factors - having fun is another - and in an MMO where you are playing with lots of other people, I value fairness (grinding) over imbalance (p2w). But, I also wouldn't play a game with excessive grinding, p2w or massive power gaps.