Here again we have a case of a business (Zenimax) doing what businesses do - aka come up with ways to make money and keep their products profitable.
Consumers (players) - have 2 options - play or don't, buy or don't - it's very clear cut.
For some reason players get confused and think that they are business owners and somehow should have direct input on regulating pricing of products that they didn't create nor have had any input on whatsoever, because they are NOT part of Zenimax.
What's strange is how this keeps happening over and over, players get confused over who they are - just consumers.
So... in your worldview when "just consumers" have opinions about how a company behaves, makes its money, what they should or shouldn't sell... that's just because they're deluding themselves? Interesting perspective.
Consumers have opinions about stuff and the internet gives them a forum to express what those are. Some people think this is inherently wrong. Some think it's the beginning of a slippery slope. Some think that it's a tacky way to make money. Some even like it... and they're all expressing their views. What is the problem with THAT exactly?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Here again we have a case of a business (Zenimax) doing what businesses do - aka come up with ways to make money and keep their products profitable.
Consumers (players) - have 2 options - play or don't, buy or don't - it's very clear cut.
For some reason players get confused and think that they are business owners and somehow should have direct input on regulating pricing of products that they didn't create nor have had any input on whatsoever, because they are NOT part of Zenimax.
What's strange is how this keeps happening over and over, players get confused over who they are - just consumers.
So... in your worldview when "just consumers" have opinions about how a company behaves, makes its money, what they should or shouldn't sell... that's just because they're deluding themselves? Interesting perspective.
Consumers have opinions about stuff and the internet gives them a forum to express what those are. Some people think this is inherently wrong. Some think it's the beginning of a slippery slope. Some think that it's a tacky way to make money. Some even like it... and they're all expressing their views. What is the problem with THAT exactly?
And basically mmorpgs are over. If you can't count on your virtual world, then why bother. At first wow was king just because, now wow is king because everyone else sucks.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't mind. It's not something I'm interested in buying often.
The main draw in these sorts of systems is the ability to easily resell the items for in game resources. If ZOS doesn't provide an avenue for that they won't be nearly as popular as they could be.
Now that I would agree with. Earlier it was mentioned how CS:GO does their stuff but the stuff can be resold or traded etc for stuff people actually wants. I dont mind if the RNG boxes come and people can just sell the stuff they either do not want or get duplicates of. Without that RNG boxes do not benefit the consumer, only the company.
People really need to get outside of these "me me me" bubble and the "company needs to make money." Selling RNG has no place if you already have to pay them to even play the game in the first place, be it b2p or f2p. RNG is a huge chunk of f2p revenue, but you do not have to give them a dime to play the game. Many people lack self-control and yes its their fault, but they also make up the community that you have to play with. So ultimately it does affect YOUR game if there's no one around due to "innocent" decisions like this.
And it soooooooo innocent, yet no one can tell me why they do not just sell the items separate if its no harm.
Here again we have a case of a business (Zenimax) doing what businesses do - aka come up with ways to make money and keep their products profitable.
Consumers (players) - have 2 options - play or don't, buy or don't - it's very clear cut.
For some reason players get confused and think that they are business owners and somehow should have direct input on regulating pricing of products that they didn't create nor have had any input on whatsoever, because they are NOT part of Zenimax.
What's strange is how this keeps happening over and over, players get confused over who they are - just consumers.
So... in your worldview when "just consumers" have opinions about how a company behaves, makes its money, what they should or shouldn't sell... that's just because they're deluding themselves? Interesting perspective.
Consumers have opinions about stuff and the internet gives them a forum to express what those are. Some people think this is inherently wrong. Some think it's the beginning of a slippery slope. Some think that it's a tacky way to make money. Some even like it... and they're all expressing their views. What is the problem with THAT exactly?
Having opinion on what to do as a consumer is fine:
Example: I don't like what Zenimax is doing, so I won't be purchasing these boxes.
Having an opinion on what a COMPANY that you are not a part of should do and how they should run their business is delusional:
Example: Zenimax is greedy and shouldn't sell these boxes
Do you see the difference - opinion on things that are in your control is fine, opinion on stuff that is NOT in your control is pointless.
What Zenimax does is their own business - they have the right to run their own company how they want
Another example of opinion that is based on delusion of having control:
The universe should stop this this expansion and acceleration because it's bad for everyone. The universe is self-destructive and uncaring of others.
Bottom line - there is an opinion that's valid as it has to do with an actionable item within your control.
And then there's opinions that are beyond your control and serve no purpose whatsoever, the problem remains that people think they need to have an opinion on everything - I think the popularity of social media is a big part of this.
Sorry man I'm just not buying it. Social media has nothing to do with it. We have opinions about everything, be it something within our ability to control or not, and we always have. Social media just gets those opinions out there easily.
You just think we should keep those opinions to ourselves because they're not within our control. Pretty damn convenient for those businesses since, according to you, our non-delusional actions begin and end with the buy / not buy decision.
Company XYZ is dumping chemical into the watershed? Why that's none of our business. All we can do is just not buy their products and keep our mouths shut.
Yes, Zenimax and Trion and everyone else has the right to run their companies how they want. And we have the right to have and express opinions about how they run their companies.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
It started with how P2P was the best thing for the game and that it would ensure monthly updates and that the cash shop would be limited. He has kept repeating how Elder Scrolls Online have beaten expectations but that haven't stop Zenimax from letting employees go so that updates turn less frequent and that they have to keep adding things to the cash shop.
Gaming existed long before cash shops were introduced so stop talking about them as something that's needed to make publishers invest in games, most often its only about increasing profits.
Stop defending gambling boxes unless you find that they add value to your game experience.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
You would think those that wouldn't buy the boxes would be ecstatic that someone else will and further fund development of a game they are playing.
Regarding it turning into the focus of further development I'm not sure I've seen that happen regarding cosmetic items. The development cost vs revenue has to be insane where these items are concerned. The only valid concern IMO is the transition to game influencing items, going all Darth Vader...
Iselin said: And we have the right to have and express opinions about how they run their companies.
Sure, but that does not make their "opinion" any less illegitimate and..."silly".
That was all his point was about, and he is right on that one.
He didn't have a point, he was just trying to control the discussion with blanket insults about delusion... sort of like you with your silly.
Thing is I expect that from you, condescending is your MO but it's not usually his.
The verbal contortions where he essentially said that businesses shouldn't be questioned was amusing though.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Iselin said: He didn't have a point, he was just trying to control the discussion with blanket insults about delusion... sort of like you with your silly.
Thing is I expect that from you, condescending is your MO but it's not usually his.
The verbal contortions where he essentially said that businesses shouldn't be questioned was amusing though.
Oh, control a discussing just like you are trying to shifting his point into a point he was not making?
With "insults" like your "amusing"?
Well played, sir.
And yes, they have no right to question other's business, as much as others do not have a right to question their private matters.
Can I just point out that we are again talking about VIDEO GAME BUSINESS - aka entertainment.
Lets have some opinions on how much Las Vegas entertainers should charge per show, it's equally as pointless.
If we were discussing food industry, or pharmaceutical industry - or even oil industry - sure opinions are more relevant - because of direct impact on human life.
But again we're talking about a loot box in a video game here......
Yeah I've heard that one before too. Nothing they do matters one way or the other because it's just games. Greedmonger? Pfft, just a game forgeddabout it.
Remind me again why we discuss anything at all here since it's all such a trivial 1st world thing?
And why did you get so worked up about Daum's incompetence dealing with hackers, posting one or more threads a day about how the game was going to shit? Wtf were you doing man, it's just games.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
And yes, they have no right to question other's business, as much as others do not have a right to question their private matters.
Private matters...that's rich. It's almost sig worthy. I'm tempted...
Corporate fanboi much?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
RNG boxes are a form of gambling - you can buy and consume 100s unlike e.g. a Las Vegas show. "Gambling" has potential social ramifications and there is a link between "gambling" and e.g. increased crime. Which impacts other people. And video games can be played by minors.
So its a sensitive issue.
As it stands Zenimax are not doing anything different from what many other games are doing. And what is deemed acceptable although there are now some restrictions regarding minors. ESO has been marketed as an adult game from the start however. (Why?) So there is no reason to single out TESO.
So this comes down to Zenimax believing they will make more money by introducing RNGs. And it would come down to this if they had non-cosmetic items in the boxes. All a calculation on their part about what their playerbase / potential playerbase will accept.
There is a valid "bigger picture" debate. And that should not be trivialised. And the debate will probably continue as more and more games add RNG boxes. May even see games which include RNGs being regulated by whatever gambling laws are in force in a particular country (or state in the US). (Which most game companies don't seem keen on.)
As I don't play ESO nor ever buy RNG loot boxes (because I really have no "luck" in gambling) the following is my unsolicited opinion.
I have no issue with companies selling me things in games outright, even items many people consider P2W. I can choose to either buy or not buy something which is a standard practice.
Gambling for a chance at items I want takes gaming in a direction I'd rather not see the genre go into.
Sure, I don't have to buy them, and if the items can be resold in game to others by those that do it becomes more palatable, but overall I'd rather companies just not do it, taking the "moral high ground" as it were.
Let's not kid ourselves, gambling is recognised addiction, and an activity that has received significant scrutiny and control by both society and government over the years.
We're more accepting of it these days, and now government has turned into one of its biggest purveyors, but still I can't help wish MMORPG gaming would eschew the practice.
Still, you never can control the "merchants of sin and death" as this is what society wants, so its what they get either legally or illegally.
Perhaps expressing this opinion here is pointless (likely is) but you never know where or how you influence people and truthfully we all share our thoughts here for the entertainment value.
But if CCP was to add these to EVE I'd definitely take the time to express my displeasure through formal channels, (or just Burn Jita) regardless whether they wanted it or not.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Here again we have a case of a business (Zenimax) doing what businesses do - aka come up with ways to make money and keep their products profitable.
Consumers (players) - have 2 options - play or don't, buy or don't - it's very clear cut.
For some reason players get confused and think that they are business owners and somehow should have direct input on regulating pricing of products that they didn't create nor have had any input on whatsoever, because they are NOT part of Zenimax.
What's strange is how this keeps happening over and over, players get confused over who they are - just consumers.
So... in your worldview when "just consumers" have opinions about how a company behaves, makes its money, what they should or shouldn't sell... that's just because they're deluding themselves? Interesting perspective.
Consumers have opinions about stuff and the internet gives them a forum to express what those are. Some people think this is inherently wrong. Some think it's the beginning of a slippery slope. Some think that it's a tacky way to make money. Some even like it... and they're all expressing their views. What is the problem with THAT exactly?
Having opinion on what to do as a consumer is fine:
Example: I don't like what Zenimax is doing, so I won't be purchasing these boxes.
Having an opinion on what a COMPANY that you are not a part of should do and how they should run their business is delusional:
Example: Zenimax is greedy and shouldn't sell these boxes
Do you see the difference - opinion on things that are in your control is fine, opinion on stuff that is NOT in your control is pointless.
What Zenimax does is their own business - they have the right to run their own company how they want
Another example of opinion that is based on delusion of having control:
The universe should stop this this expansion and acceleration because it's bad for everyone. The universe is self-destructive and uncaring of others.
Bottom line - there is an opinion that's valid as it has to do with an actionable item within your control.
And then there's opinions that are beyond your control and serve no purpose whatsoever, the problem remains that people think they need to have an opinion on everything - I think the popularity of social media is a big part of this.
No, this is just you telling @Iselin his opinion is "wrong" and that he's delusional and should just shut up since he has have no control over it. But in truth, you simply disagree with his opinion. What business do you have telling people they should be quiet and not express an opinion over what the companies who want our money are doing? You post is hypocritical. Your'e expressing one opinion to silence another you disagree with.
Hyperbole about the universe expanding has no bearing on Iselin's opinion. Since if enough people do express the same opinion, they can exert some pressure on these companies and it's not completely out of our control as is the nature of astrophysics. Which brings me to my next point.
I find it ironic that you belittled Iselin's comment about dumping chemicals as it has nothing to do with video game development. Yet, the universe ultimately destroying itself, does?
I'm not a legal expert but Isn't online gambling forbidden in several countries? Would this violate those laws?
Mostly in Asia but a lot depends on how you define and what you consider gambling.
In its purest form it's when you bet money in the hope of getting more than you bet in return if you win.
These skirt this by "selling" you a box that you don't even have to open, but if you do you may "find" (not win) a pixelated item which generally has no real money value.
Also likely the reason they don't sell the same item in the cash shop outright is then it would put a value to it and might run afoul of gambling restrictions.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Kyleran said: In its purest form it's when you bet money in the hope of getting more than you bet in return if you win.
That also include raffle, lottery, bingo or any game that involves money or betting in general.
There is no reason why gambling in any form should be forbidden. You cannot, and shouldn't, protect people from being stupid and/or irresponsible with their money.
Shouldn't we just trust Zenimax? I mean they are professionals and do this for a living so they must know best. Besides, Zenimax has proven trustworthy in every thing else they have done.
Sz
There is no right way to do this. Its not even about what you get or being fair. Spending cash to instantly receive a random reward of varying value is gambling and having the ability to do it over and over again repeatably and instantly is gambling in its purist form.
Paying a one time monthly fee for the right to play an entire game that includes varying rewards is not a direct form of gambling because I cant spend more money on my sub to increase my chances its a fixed amount.
I f@cking hate cash shops and what they have done to my hobby.
coretex666 said: However, it is absolutely natural and correct that the "just consumers" form and express their opinion on whether the business decisions are appropriate, ethical, legal, or simply in alignment with their own preferences.
This website is exactly the right forum to share and discuss these opinions. It is completely irrelevant whether these opinions relate to something the "just consumers" have or do not have control over.
No one was disputing that. DMKano never said anything even remotely close like that you should not voice your opinions.
It was Iselin twisting his words into something he didn't say.
1 I do not want any gambling in my games 2 Cash shops NEVER should have been allowed to enter the market of gaming ...EVER
Only positive is they call it GAMBLING as it most certainly is since the known result is very obvious for the developer.Just simply attach a % and the known cash result is easy.People go in thinking they have a chance but the chance is already set in place,likely around 1-5%,so the developer can make a boat load of money from selling VERY few "virtual" items.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I already bought / buy the cosmetics I want so this doesnt matter to me. Though it is interesting that they are adding the limited time cosmetics to these boxes to let those who missed out have a chance to get them.
Comments
Consumers have opinions about stuff and the internet gives them a forum to express what those are. Some people think this is inherently wrong. Some think it's the beginning of a slippery slope. Some think that it's a tacky way to make money. Some even like it... and they're all expressing their views. What is the problem with THAT exactly?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Marvel Heroes does it all the time with exclusive costumes/teamups hidden behind lottery cards.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
People really need to get outside of these "me me me" bubble and the "company needs to make money." Selling RNG has no place if you already have to pay them to even play the game in the first place, be it b2p or f2p. RNG is a huge chunk of f2p revenue, but you do not have to give them a dime to play the game. Many people lack self-control and yes its their fault, but they also make up the community that you have to play with. So ultimately it does affect YOUR game if there's no one around due to "innocent" decisions like this.
And it soooooooo innocent, yet no one can tell me why they do not just sell the items separate if its no harm.
Meanwhile, his point still stands.
You just think we should keep those opinions to ourselves because they're not within our control. Pretty damn convenient for those businesses since, according to you, our non-delusional actions begin and end with the buy / not buy decision.
Company XYZ is dumping chemical into the watershed? Why that's none of our business. All we can do is just not buy their products and keep our mouths shut.
Yes, Zenimax and Trion and everyone else has the right to run their companies how they want. And we have the right to have and express opinions about how they run their companies.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
It started with how P2P was the best thing for the game and that it would ensure monthly updates and that the cash shop would be limited. He has kept repeating how Elder Scrolls Online have beaten expectations but that haven't stop Zenimax from letting employees go so that updates turn less frequent and that they have to keep adding things to the cash shop.
Gaming existed long before cash shops were introduced so stop talking about them as something that's needed to make publishers invest in games, most often its only about increasing profits.
Stop defending gambling boxes unless you find that they add value to your game experience.
That was all his point was about, and he is right on that one.
You would think those that wouldn't buy the boxes would be ecstatic that someone else will and further fund development of a game they are playing.
Regarding it turning into the focus of further development I'm not sure I've seen that happen regarding cosmetic items. The development cost vs revenue has to be insane where these items are concerned. The only valid concern IMO is the transition to game influencing items, going all Darth Vader...
Thing is I expect that from you, condescending is your MO but it's not usually his.
The verbal contortions where he essentially said that businesses shouldn't be questioned was amusing though.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
With "insults" like your "amusing"?
Well played, sir.
And yes, they have no right to question other's business, as much as others do not have a right to question their private matters.
Remind me again why we discuss anything at all here since it's all such a trivial 1st world thing?
And why did you get so worked up about Daum's incompetence dealing with hackers, posting one or more threads a day about how the game was going to shit? Wtf were you doing man, it's just games.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Corporate fanboi much?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
So its a sensitive issue.
As it stands Zenimax are not doing anything different from what many other games are doing. And what is deemed acceptable although there are now some restrictions regarding minors. ESO has been marketed as an adult game from the start however. (Why?) So there is no reason to single out TESO.
So this comes down to Zenimax believing they will make more money by introducing RNGs. And it would come down to this if they had non-cosmetic items in the boxes. All a calculation on their part about what their playerbase / potential playerbase will accept.
There is a valid "bigger picture" debate. And that should not be trivialised. And the debate will probably continue as more and more games add RNG boxes. May even see games which include RNGs being regulated by whatever gambling laws are in force in a particular country (or state in the US). (Which most game companies don't seem keen on.)
I have no issue with companies selling me things in games outright, even items many people consider P2W. I can choose to either buy or not buy something which is a standard practice.
Gambling for a chance at items I want takes gaming in a direction I'd rather not see the genre go into.
Sure, I don't have to buy them, and if the items can be resold in game to others by those that do it becomes more palatable, but overall I'd rather companies just not do it, taking the "moral high ground" as it were.
Let's not kid ourselves, gambling is recognised addiction, and an activity that has received significant scrutiny and control by both society and government over the years.
We're more accepting of it these days, and now government has turned into one of its biggest purveyors, but still I can't help wish MMORPG gaming would eschew the practice.
Still, you never can control the "merchants of sin and death" as this is what society wants, so its what they get either legally or illegally.
Perhaps expressing this opinion here is pointless (likely is) but you never know where or how you influence people and truthfully we all share our thoughts here for the entertainment value.
But if CCP was to add these to EVE I'd definitely take the time to express my displeasure through formal channels, (or just Burn Jita) regardless whether they wanted it or not.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Hyperbole about the universe expanding has no bearing on Iselin's opinion. Since if enough people do express the same opinion, they can exert some pressure on these companies and it's not completely out of our control as is the nature of astrophysics. Which brings me to my next point.
I find it ironic that you belittled Iselin's comment about dumping chemicals as it has nothing to do with video game development. Yet, the universe ultimately destroying itself, does?
These skirt this by "selling" you a box that you don't even have to open, but if you do you may "find" (not win) a pixelated item which generally has no real money value.
Also likely the reason they don't sell the same item in the cash shop outright is then it would put a value to it and might run afoul of gambling restrictions.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There is no reason why gambling in any form should be forbidden. You cannot, and shouldn't, protect people from being stupid and/or irresponsible with their money.
Paying a one time monthly fee for the right to play an entire game that includes varying rewards is not a direct form of gambling because I cant spend more money on my sub to increase my chances its a fixed amount.
I f@cking hate cash shops and what they have done to my hobby.
It was Iselin twisting his words into something he didn't say.
2 Cash shops NEVER should have been allowed to enter the market of gaming ...EVER
Only positive is they call it GAMBLING as it most certainly is since the known result is very obvious for the developer.Just simply attach a % and the known cash result is easy.People go in thinking they have a chance but the chance is already set in place,likely around 1-5%,so the developer can make a boat load of money from selling VERY few "virtual" items.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.