I do not think an MMO can survive much less thrive with just a box and sub. Some people here are even saying to lower the sub price. Game development cost's have sky rocketed over the years yet games remain virtually the same price. The market has shifted and publishers are struggling to keep a positive residual income flowing in that pays for the overhead of running an always on game that needs constant updates and attention. Yes 'back in the day' it was possible but things have grown more expensive. In the genre's infancy it was possible but now. Box,Sub and a cosmetic cash shop is fine. ESO does a decent job but they even have had to add loot boxes now to make up costs. It is not always just about making more and more money. Sometimes it is just about paying the bills and having enough money to keep your people employed to create new content.
Some are suggesting paying a higher sub fee on top of a box price. That I think is fair. I know many of us here would willingly pay $20 to $25 USD a month for a good game. If it had a box price of say $40 tp $50 and a sub of $20 to $25 or so that would perhaps generate a steady enough flow of income to keep a game running for some time all while affording the developer the cash to create new content.
I think mmos charge too much, way more than their online components warrant. Single player games or games with single player and multiplayer components operate on a much smaller revenue chunk per person.
Think about how much your typical MMO wants you to spend a year and compare that to how much more entertainment you can buy that aren't mmos.
Annual sub at $15 / mo = $180 annually. If it were $25 that would be $300.
Then there are box / xpac fees. Let's say that's $60 annually.
Then there are digital extras. Let's not even count those for now.
So an MMO would like us to spend about $240 per year per game at the very minimum (or $360/yr at the higher rate). Are they really delivering $240 a year in entertainment? That's more than my annual Netflix bill and I get way more out of it than any single mmo.
Maybe the industry needs a paradigm shift away from spending $300M on a game and then expecting billions in return. We may have moved on from trying to create WoW clones, but I think the industry is still chasing that carrot. It's just trying a bunch of different stuff now hoping for that WoW / LoL / GTA payout.
Annual subs are typically 12-13 a month and expansions more like 40, so its a bit closer to 200 annually.
And 200 annually? Thats pretty cheap if I'm getting even as low as 100 hours a year of entertainment. Its certainly a hell of a lot cheaper considering what i would probably do as an alternative.
I think the 'fair' sub price scales with the player base. WoW probably makes a hell of a lot more profit per player than a game like EQ2 (before its freemium model).
I do know this: i think 12-15 a month is acceptable if the amount of content is reasonable (WoW kind of fails here). I also know this: every single game, without fail, that has gone from sub to freemium has delivered considerably worse and/or less frequent content after the transition. the design shifts from keeping people playing to keeping people paying.
Nilden said: What if people are paying based on if they think the monetization is fair?
Fair to whom? People with low income? People that want to drop money on the game? People who have lots of free time or on the opposite, not much spare time? etc. etc.
It makes no sense whatsoever, just another mmorpg.com article...
ESO is the worst model. "B2P" and then you have to pay for content patches.
A sub without any bullshit cash shop is best for consumers. Charging a $15 subscription allowed CCP to grow EVE from their initial user base through dozens of free expansions to the point where they had millions to literally throw away on stupid decisions to make other games. They did this because they funneled the money they were taking in back into the game. That part may be a sticking point for shareholders but it's not like corporations are capable of making good games anyways.
you have reply to your question yourself actualy ; There was a time when MMO’s felt ‘fair’. You’d hand over $15 a month, have access to everything and be safe in the knowledge that the game made no effort to manipulate your playtime. As it stands now,
there you go, subs are fine we just lack good games worth subs... quality mmorpg require more investment and time, when they fail that big loss for dev so they just go safe and f2p + cash shop or just translate korean or asian games and cash them hardcore before drop them...
Netflicks is cheaper because they don't develop or create anything. They leverage what others have put the time/money into. So yes it is cheaper for them. The closest to them would be a company who offered multiple MMOs created by other companies in some sort of right of use agreement.
Separating the MMO business from shareholders is a good start.
This is really the first step. The second you have shareholders, then you have a group of people who:
Have zero interest in any part of the game mechanics, game play or anything else associated with the finer details of what makes a game "fun".
Are only interested in whether the game is profitable, how profitable and how to make it more profitable.
By removing these blind, greedy suits from the process and funding the game by any other means necessary, then you retain control over point one and can make a game that people will enjoy playing.
These RNG loot boxes that are becoming the rage in games recently, for instance, are all in response to point two. They are a despicable means of drawing cash out of gamers by preying on the randomness of gambling.
Personally, I prefer my MMO style games to have a flat subscription and no cash shop whatsoever. I want to pay my monthly fee and have everything that's in the game be earned through in-game means. I don't like shortcuts or exclusives in any way at all.
Separating the MMO business from shareholders is a good start.
This is really the first step. The second you have shareholders, then you have a group of people who:
Have zero interest in any part of the game mechanics, game play or anything else associated with the finer details of what makes a game "fun".
Are only interested in whether the game is profitable, how profitable and how to make it more profitable.
By removing these blind, greedy suits from the process and funding the game by any other means necessary, then you retain control over point one and can make a game that people will enjoy playing.
These RNG loot boxes that are becoming the rage in games recently, for instance, are all in response to point two. They are a despicable means of drawing cash out of gamers by preying on the randomness of gambling.
Personally, I prefer my MMO style games to have a flat subscription and no cash shop whatsoever. I want to pay my monthly fee and have everything that's in the game be earned through in-game means. I don't like shortcuts or exclusives in any way at all.
This isnt true in my experience , I have been a major shareholder with ATVI , EA , FCMKF, Sqnx, etc.. for many many years .. Got involved because i love games ...
I will tell you this , None of them have ever , ever in anyway asked for input on Game direction , development or monetization...
Separating the MMO business from shareholders is a good start.
This is really the first step. The second you have shareholders, then you have a group of people who:
Have zero interest in any part of the game mechanics, game play or anything else associated with the finer details of what makes a game "fun".
Are only interested in whether the game is profitable, how profitable and how to make it more profitable.
By removing these blind, greedy suits from the process and funding the game by any other means necessary, then you retain control over point one and can make a game that people will enjoy playing.
These RNG loot boxes that are becoming the rage in games recently, for instance, are all in response to point two. They are a despicable means of drawing cash out of gamers by preying on the randomness of gambling.
Personally, I prefer my MMO style games to have a flat subscription and no cash shop whatsoever. I want to pay my monthly fee and have everything that's in the game be earned through in-game means. I don't like shortcuts or exclusives in any way at all.
This isnt true , I have been a major shareholder with ATVI , EA , FCMKF, Sqnx, etc.. for many many years .. Got involved because i love games ...
I will tell you this , None of them have ever , ever in anyway asked for input on Game direction , development or monetization...
I invest in many as well but what I think Hourglass is saying is the publisher answers to the shareholders looking for a positive ROI on their investments which in turn puts the publishers in a situation where they feel the need to pressure the developers. When ever you add layers of accountability to a process it becomes overly complicated and influences the product.
Most of the better games are run by Publisher(companies) that are publicly owned , the privatley owned games are the more agrievous cashshop games with less success long term....
But I will add this as an investor and gamer , i think that the sub model with cosmetic cash shop only , is a win/win for everyone involved
I think the author wrote the article through some serious rose tinted glasses.
"There was a time when MMO’s felt ‘fair’. You’d hand over $15 a month,
have access to everything and be safe in the knowledge that the game
made no effort to manipulate your playtime."
"For me and perhaps it’s because I’m of a generation that is used to the
subscription model, it is still, unquestionably, the fairest of them
all. The development team is guaranteed income, all players are equal on
arrival and game systems don’t have to be manipulated in order to nudge
players into buying from any in-game store."
That is just a nostalgic fantasy. They've always tried to manipulate our time. They've tried to keep us playing one game. They've strung out game play to keep us subbed. They have effectively ignored the 800lb gorrilla of third party RMT.
It's never been a level playing field or fair because people who buy gold have a big advantage. People who have tons of time to spend on the game have a big advantage. No one has ever been equal in an mmo and game systems were designed to keep players grinding and chasing that RNG carrot for months and years on end.
For a small subset of the playing demographic it seemed like a very fair system because the setup benefitted them. For a larger majority it wasn't and it didn't benefit them, thus why sub revenue plummeted. MMOs didn't suddenly get bad one month and everyone stopped paying and playing. People just got tired of being nickled and dimed for a rental bill every month regardless of how much they played or how poorly the RNG was to them.
The fair fee is the one you're willing to pay in order to participate in what you enjoy. Anything else is just moralization and projection of personal preferences onto others.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Separating the MMO business from shareholders is a good start.
This is really the first step. The second you have shareholders, then you have a group of people who:
Have zero interest in any part of the game mechanics, game play or anything else associated with the finer details of what makes a game "fun".
Are only interested in whether the game is profitable, how profitable and how to make it more profitable.
By removing these blind, greedy suits from the process and funding the game by any other means necessary, then you retain control over point one and can make a game that people will enjoy playing.
These RNG loot boxes that are becoming the rage in games recently, for instance, are all in response to point two. They are a despicable means of drawing cash out of gamers by preying on the randomness of gambling.
Personally, I prefer my MMO style games to have a flat subscription and no cash shop whatsoever. I want to pay my monthly fee and have everything that's in the game be earned through in-game means. I don't like shortcuts or exclusives in any way at all.
This isnt true , I have been a major shareholder with ATVI , EA , FCMKF, Sqnx, etc.. for many many years .. Got involved because i love games ...
I will tell you this , None of them have ever , ever in anyway asked for input on Game direction , development or monetization...
I invest in many as well but what I think Hourglass is saying is the publisher answers to the shareholders looking for a positive ROI on their investments which in turn puts the publishers in a situation where they feel the need to pressure the developers. When ever you add layers of accountability to a process it becomes overly complicated and influences the product.
Most of the better games are run by Publishers that are publicly owned , the privatley owned games are the more agrievous cashshop games with less success long term....
That has been the case but moving forward I do not think that will be the case. I think private Indie companies are the future for the genre in the West.
i hope some of these games deliver and have great success , Project Gorgon , Pantheon .. etc .. You may be right , but it will be a long hard road for them to overtake the publicly backed big guys
I think the author wrote the article through some serious rose tinted glasses.
"There was a time when MMO’s felt ‘fair’. You’d hand over $15 a month,
have access to everything and be safe in the knowledge that the game
made no effort to manipulate your playtime."
"For me and perhaps it’s because I’m of a generation that is used to the
subscription model, it is still, unquestionably, the fairest of them
all. The development team is guaranteed income, all players are equal on
arrival and game systems don’t have to be manipulated in order to nudge
players into buying from any in-game store."
That is just a nostalgic fantasy. They've always tried to manipulate our time. They've tried to keep us playing one game. They've strung out game play to keep us subbed. They have effectively ignored the 800lb gorrilla of third party RMT.
It's never been a level playing field or fair because people who buy gold have a big advantage. People who have tons of time to spend on the game have a big advantage. No one has ever been equal in an mmo and game systems were designed to keep players grinding and chasing that RNG carrot for months and years on end.
For a small subset of the playing demographic it seemed like a very fair system because the setup benefitted them. For a larger majority it wasn't and it didn't benefit them, thus why sub revenue plummeted. MMOs didn't suddenly get bad one month and everyone stopped paying and playing. People just got tired of being nickled and dimed for a rental bill every month regardless of how much they played or how poorly the RNG was to them.
The fair fee is the one you're willing to pay in order to participate in what you enjoy. Anything else is just moralization and projection of personal preferences onto others.
Fairness shouldn't be the goal.
I think you mean fairness isn't the goal.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
3. Shop that has cosmetic items only (e.g., armor skins, not armor); and
4. Expansions cost extra.
This would be 90% of everyone's preferred option. However, it does not appear that this model is bringing in enough cash for the devs. As almost all of them with this model have started in game cash for RL cash conversions.
I've thought about the classic $15/month sub and I've determined that I really do not like paying a box price and then have no access to my purchased game without that $15 a month. If it was like $5-7 a month I would have less of a problem, $15 just seems a bit much to access a game with a box price and likely a cash shop. Unless you are the top of the top I doubt you are pumping out content to justify $15 a month.
Sub based MMOs are the ONLY option for a fair game. Simple as that.
"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know, that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom. (Death)” ― Terry Pratchett,
3. Shop that has cosmetic items only (e.g., armor skins, not armor); and
4. Expansions cost extra.
This would be 90% of everyone's preferred option. However, it does not appear that this model is bringing in enough cash for the devs. As almost all of them with this model have started in game cash for RL cash conversions.
I've thought about the classic $15/month sub and I've determined that I really do not like paying a box price and then have no access to my purchased game without that $15 a month. If it was like $5-7 a month I would have less of a problem, $15 just seems a bit much to access a game with a box price and likely a cash shop. Unless you are the top of the top I doubt you are pumping out content to justify $15 a month.
well we dont realy know if it does not bring enough cash for the devs or not, for these big company they never have enough cash, if they can make more they will do it, f2p ( p2win, + box price ) + charge everything bring ALOT more cash that a subs of 15-20$ months... who know if 20$ a months was enough or not ?? for wow activision this was enough but not for activision blizzard . ff14 work wonderfull and they do alot of contents.. so im inclined to think that enough for make a games good.
also that more stable they got stable income that better for the peoples who work for them, they know the resource they can put for contents ect, while f2p you need find new way get into the customer pocket each new months that never stable... and sadly when they go f2p they got mostly time only to find way to get into customer pocket and rarely way to add contents for the games ( unless they charge it )
so im inclined to think that the best way for mmorpg would be with subs again, but for that we need quality games and in 2016 most company and dev use mmorpg to get a fash cash grab and forget the title usualy... even worst, they just do asian/korean mmorpg translation and cash them the most they can before almost drop them and go to the next games... when mmorpg need time and longevity... that bad for everyone...
f2p = cancer and honestly that the reason we got such bad games each years
peoples are to blame because peoples accept these trash games, they even dont know what p2win anymore... so dev play with that and releases games realy p2win... each time..
for games with subs,... if you have pay the games box they could just offert a free 2-3 days each new months if you want look at the contents before subs... i agree it suck you need active a subs just to look if you want play again... im in this boat with various games... a litle check way would be nice !! but im sure like my exemple they could find small fix to improve pay to play if they realy want it... but f2p bring more money so they dont care about it
Most MMORPG players agree on what the business model should be: only someone else should have to pay, but they shouldn't get any advantage from doing so.
Among people willing to pay money for an MMORPG, people really aren't that price sensitive. If you'd sooner play a game you dislike for free than a game you like for $20/month, you probably wouldn't be willing to pay anything no matter what the game did.
Either go with p2p, b2p with cash shop items or fremium with cash shop. I'm sick and tired of games that sell a box, go with subscription that becomes almost mandatory and on top of that go full on with a cash shop.
Stop selling gear and xp potions in cash shops. That shit has no place in gaming.
Stop with the slippery slope approach to monetization. It starts with a mount and a pet, it ends with a big cash shop, selling max level characters for money and/or gambling boxes.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Comments
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/And 200 annually? Thats pretty cheap if I'm getting even as low as 100 hours a year of entertainment. Its certainly a hell of a lot cheaper considering what i would probably do as an alternative.
I think the 'fair' sub price scales with the player base. WoW probably makes a hell of a lot more profit per player than a game like EQ2 (before its freemium model).
I do know this: i think 12-15 a month is acceptable if the amount of content is reasonable (WoW kind of fails here).
I also know this: every single game, without fail, that has gone from sub to freemium has delivered considerably worse and/or less frequent content after the transition. the design shifts from keeping people playing to keeping people paying.
It makes no sense whatsoever, just another mmorpg.com article...
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Anyhow , not by choice they arent .. They cant
A sub without any bullshit cash shop is best for consumers. Charging a $15 subscription allowed CCP to grow EVE from their initial user base through dozens of free expansions to the point where they had millions to literally throw away on stupid decisions to make other games. They did this because they funneled the money they were taking in back into the game. That part may be a sticking point for shareholders but it's not like corporations are capable of making good games anyways.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
there you go, subs are fine we just lack good games worth subs... quality mmorpg require more investment and time, when they fail that big loss for dev so they just go safe and f2p + cash shop or just translate korean or asian games and cash them hardcore before drop them...
By removing these blind, greedy suits from the process and funding the game by any other means necessary, then you retain control over point one and can make a game that people will enjoy playing.
These RNG loot boxes that are becoming the rage in games recently, for instance, are all in response to point two. They are a despicable means of drawing cash out of gamers by preying on the randomness of gambling.
Personally, I prefer my MMO style games to have a flat subscription and no cash shop whatsoever. I want to pay my monthly fee and have everything that's in the game be earned through in-game means. I don't like shortcuts or exclusives in any way at all.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
I will tell you this , None of them have ever , ever in anyway asked for input on Game direction , development or monetization...
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
with less success long term....
But I will add this as an investor and gamer , i think that the sub model with cosmetic cash shop only , is a win/win for everyone involved
Fairness shouldn't be the goal.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
This would be 90% of everyone's preferred option. However, it does not appear that this model is bringing in enough cash for the devs. As almost all of them with this model have started in game cash for RL cash conversions.
I've thought about the classic $15/month sub and I've determined that I really do not like paying a box price and then have no access to my purchased game without that $15 a month. If it was like $5-7 a month I would have less of a problem, $15 just seems a bit much to access a game with a box price and likely a cash shop. Unless you are the top of the top I doubt you are pumping out content to justify $15 a month.
It's not hard.....really, it's not.
What seems to be hard is creating a game where players want to keep returning to.
― Terry Pratchett,
well we dont realy know if it does not bring enough cash for the devs or not, for these big company they never have enough cash, if they can make more they will do it, f2p ( p2win, + box price ) + charge everything bring ALOT more cash that a subs of 15-20$ months... who know if 20$ a months was enough or not ?? for wow activision this was enough but not for activision blizzard . ff14 work wonderfull and they do alot of contents.. so im inclined to think that enough for make a games good.
also that more stable they got stable income that better for the peoples who work for them, they know the resource they can put for contents ect, while f2p you need find new way get into the customer pocket each new months that never stable... and sadly when they go f2p they got mostly time only to find way to get into customer pocket and rarely way to add contents for the games ( unless they charge it )
so im inclined to think that the best way for mmorpg would be with subs again, but for that we need quality games and in 2016 most company and dev use mmorpg to get a fash cash grab and forget the title usualy... even worst, they just do asian/korean mmorpg translation and cash them the most they can before almost drop them and go to the next games... when mmorpg need time and longevity... that bad for everyone...
f2p = cancer and honestly that the reason we got such bad games each years
peoples are to blame because peoples accept these trash games, they even dont know what p2win anymore... so dev play with that and releases games realy p2win... each time.. for games with subs,... if you have pay the games box they could just offert a free 2-3 days each new months if you want look at the contents before subs... i agree it suck you need active a subs just to look if you want play again... im in this boat with various games... a litle check way would be nice !! but im sure like my exemple they could find small fix to improve pay to play if they realy want it... but f2p bring more money so they dont care about it
Among people willing to pay money for an MMORPG, people really aren't that price sensitive. If you'd sooner play a game you dislike for free than a game you like for $20/month, you probably wouldn't be willing to pay anything no matter what the game did.
Stop selling gear and xp potions in cash shops. That shit has no place in gaming.
Stop with the slippery slope approach to monetization. It starts with a mount and a pet, it ends with a big cash shop, selling max level characters for money and/or gambling boxes.