The way they are executing is very well done. Nothing from a Crown Crate can be sold or traded for gold and can't impact the economy or provide players any advantage by spending real world cash.
Never gonna stop the 'P2W' crowd. It's almost a Pavlovian response. ESO is gonna add new trees..... 'P2W!!!!, oh, ooops'
"I think it is worth noting that much of this same commentary was expressed when we initially announced the Crown Store back in 2015 – slippery slope, pay-to-win, etc. – there was lots of fear then that was alleviated once players got a chance to see it and try it out for themselves."
I believe Matt is proving the commentary about the slippery-slope to be correct.
We just slid, but there is still a ways to go before we reach the bottom of the hill.
lol. Zenimax & Bethesda are in no way responsible for people's lack of self control. Addicts are responsible for their actions and should seek help where necessary. But as addiction is not the topic of concern, I shall digress.
Can I give your kids some Crack?
Like would that be ok with you? You know... They don't have to buy it if they don't want to, freedom of choice and all.
I believe Matt is proving the commentary about the slippery-slope to be correct.
Yeah. They can talk eloquently and even passionately about what their current plan is and reassure people all they want... and then things change and they are eloquent and passionate about the new thing.
I'm not reassured.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
lol. Zenimax & Bethesda are in no way responsible for people's lack of self control. Addicts are responsible for their actions and should seek help where necessary. But as addiction is not the topic of concern, I shall digress.
Can I give your kids some Crack?
Like would that be ok with you? You know... They don't have to buy it if they don't want to, freedom of choice and all.
The way they are executing is very well done. Nothing from a Crown Crate can be sold or traded for gold and can't impact the economy or provide players any advantage by spending real world cash.
Never gonna stop the 'P2W' crowd. It's almost a Pavlovian response. ESO is gonna add new trees..... 'P2W!!!!, oh, ooops'
Yeah those P2W posts are pretty easy to dismiss since hardly anyone is making them lol. It's called going after the low hanging fruit.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The way they are executing is very well done. Nothing from a Crown Crate can be sold or traded for gold and can't impact the economy or provide players any advantage by spending real world cash.
Never gonna stop the 'P2W' crowd. It's almost a Pavlovian response. ESO is gonna add new trees..... 'P2W!!!!, oh, ooops'
Hyperbole changes neither facts, nor track records.
See @Iselin post above: They said they wanted everything to be experienced by playing the game......That changed See @yonpachi post above: They said they had no plans to add RNG boxes......That changed
The historical fact that this is a pattern among MMORPGs both within this game and within the entire genre itself give credibility to assume P2W is inevitable. Or at least, it's not a foolish concern. So how can you confidently explain how ESO isn't going down that path? And if you cannot, why did you try to "shame" those who have expressed concern for this eventuality?
I don't know how viable RNG Crates will be but it changed my mind completely about buying Subscription ... Subscription + RNG + Cash Shop trash game more and more look like Asian mmos I hate Arch Age and BlackDessert ...and now Gw2 to....
There are lots and lots of active players game is alive and going well ....Rng Boxes are just greedy move ....that will kill this game it Kills my interest in it .....I won't go thou another Cash Shop shit game like Gw2
laughing pretty hard about this cause the moment they announced B2P i said give them a year or two and this would happen,just like every other F2P or B2P game. at this point F2P and B2P are the same damn thing to me. they will all keep trying to get as close to the cliff without falling off as more time passes just to make a buck,while pushing REAL content to the side.
I believe Matt is proving the commentary about the slippery-slope to be correct.
Yeah. They can talk eloquently and even passionately about what their current plan is and reassure people all they want... and then things change and they are eloquent and passionate about the new thing.
I'm not reassured.
But they are not here to reassure us.
It's about making money, keeping the investors happy.
Yes it is about making money, so the company can make profit, so they can give their employees their paycheck, so the employees can help contribute to the society by paying taxes...And so on and so on.
OMG - this pathetic discussion continues. Yes gamecompanies will do everything they can to earn money, but at the same time keeping their players stuck. Live with it - or find another game. I doubt that there will ever be an MMO, that won't have some sort of cashdeal included.
(MF) The Elder Scrolls games are all about allowing the player to go where they want, be who they want, and do what they want. We feel that putting pay gates between the player and content at any point in game ruins that feeling of freedom, and just having one small monthly fee for 100% access to the game fits the IP and the game much better than a system where you have to pay for features and access as you play. The Elder Scrolls Online was designed and developed to be a premium experience: hundreds of hours of gameplay, tons of depth and features, professional customer support - and a commitment to have ongoing content at regular intervals after launch. This type of experience is best paired with a one-time fee per month, as opposed to many smaller payments that would probably add up to more than $14.99/month any way.
And it's important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models - but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being "monetized" in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word "monetized" exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for - with our system, they get it all.
P2P model is NOT VIABLE for vast majority of games - ESO included.
They honestly thought that it would be viable - they were wrong.
So that's what happened, they made a mistake thinking that they could pull it off - now they see the light, so they are changing the monetization to keep the game afloat.
Again long term - MMO games without cash shop (pure P2P, pure B2P) are simply no longer viable.
Zenimax learned their lesson - you can't blame them - this was their first online endeavor - they were simply mistaken about realities of MMO monetization today.
Obviously they thought it would be viable and they found out they weren't making enough cash that way. Plus in ESO's case the console launch and console players purchase habits had to do a lot with why they changed.
But that wasn't why I posted that. I posted it because in the interview Matt went beyond just saying "we're going with a sub model." He went beyond that when he described why the game play experience is better without "monetizing." Something people like to gloss over when they talk about the economic realities of MMO business models: the game play experience is better in a sub game.
It also comes across as something he believed in at that time and he put some passion into his explanation and as we know, the business model changed regardless.
It's also worth looking at Gina Bruno's reddit post from just a year ago that @yonpachi posted where she was addressing the loot box specific concern about the cash shop at that time and said they had no plans to do that. Well that changed and now they have.
So any reassurances about how their loot crates will work in the future despite their google-like mantra of "do no harm" - heartfelt though it might be today - does not really reassure when viewed in context.
All we know for sure is how they're going to be done now. The future is a whole different story.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
RNG boxes are not gambling - because there is no RL money you can win in the process.
Well that would be the persnickety definition of gambling, More reasonable definitions have outcomes other than cash as the reward.
In ESO's case you spend 400 crowns and have a chance to get much more than 400 crown's worth of digital goods in return. The rare mounts alone sold or sell for 3000+ crowns.
Walks and talks like a duck from where I'm looking.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I believe Matt is proving the commentary about the slippery-slope to be correct.
Yeah. They can talk eloquently and even passionately about what their current plan is and reassure people all they want... and then things change and they are eloquent and passionate about the new thing.
I'm not reassured.
But they are not here to reassure us.
It's about making money, keeping the investors happy.
I know you often just cruise by threads, lift your leg and spray some wisdom... but maybe you should actually read the articles sometimes? Just a friendly suggestion.
MMORPG: How can you alleviate the concerns that players have expressed?
MF: I think the most common concern is that this is a slippery slope that will lead to monetization chaos and pay-to-win. However, since almost all of the items in Crown Crates are already in the Crown Store to begin with (with the exception of the unique mounts and customization items), that is a baseless fear. Our #1 mantra for virtual currency monetization is “do no harm” – meaning, don’t rock the boat by introducing items into the game that directly influence player power. This is a core design philosophy for the game, and we are not changing it by introducing Crown Crates.
I think it is worth noting that much of this same commentary was expressed when we initially announced the Crown Store back in 2015 – slippery slope, pay-to-win, etc. – there was lots of fear then that was alleviated once players got a chance to see it and try it out for themselves.
You know that the meaning of "alleviate concerns" is awfully similar to reassure don't you?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
lol. Zenimax & Bethesda are in no way responsible for people's lack of self control. Addicts are responsible for their actions and should seek help where necessary. But as addiction is not the topic of concern, I shall digress.
Can I give your kids some Crack?
Like would that be ok with you? You know... They don't have to buy it if they don't want to, freedom of choice and all.
Obviously there is no difference in chemical and psychological dependence....
lol. Zenimax & Bethesda are in no way responsible for people's lack of self control. Addicts are responsible for their actions and should seek help where necessary. But as addiction is not the topic of concern, I shall digress.
Can I give your kids some Crack?
Like would that be ok with you? You know... They don't have to buy it if they don't want to, freedom of choice and all.
Obviously there is no difference in chemical and psychological dependence....
Dude guys seriously? Are you all kidding me right now?
Do I agree with people spending their life savings on a video game rng chance? No. That's a little shifty of ZoS to put in the game. But Does it mean that this is on its way to being a B2W model? Also No. Not a single thing ever available in the crown store (including these crown crates) will improve your gameplay in any way. It's purely cosmetic. All consumables are exactly what they had before in the crown store. Just potions and food and xp boosts (which are ALL available extremely easily in the game anyway). There is no crafting mats available aside from mimic stones (again, cosmetic) and nothing you get anywhere in the crown store OR in these crates will make you a better player or give you any advantage over ANY other player. They have never done that with any crown items, nor do I think they will. So stop your damn speculation and un-sub if you actually ever see B2W appear in eso. Until then, stop out damn complaining about corporations and greed and 'woe is me, the world is so unfair' BS.
It's just a matter of time before they start putting items with stats in them like rare gear sets and weapons in order to keep sales high. They just do it slowly to cut down on backlash.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
lol. Zenimax & Bethesda are in no way responsible for people's lack of self control. Addicts are responsible for their actions and should seek help where necessary. But as addiction is not the topic of concern, I shall digress.
Can I give your kids some Crack?
Like would that be ok with you? You know... They don't have to buy it if they don't want to, freedom of choice and all.
Obviously there is no difference in chemical and psychological dependence....
Ever heard of dopamine......
Ya thats what I thought
I am sorry if you are addicted to crack and you suddenly stop what are your chances of death as opposed to stopping gambling if addicted...yeah...dopamine pumps in the brain have absolutely no comparison to chemical interdiction in the brain caused by most hard drugs.
All the corporate cock sukers need to STFU already... You know who they are, they mostly have orange names by now. ( generalization )
To them, everything is always sunshine and rainbows and they always tell people to throw their money at every turd that comes up. They hide behind optimism/positivism, but its really all just mind games to make you spend and spend more.
They always crap the same line over and over again: "These games need to make money." Like we don't know that already. Who they think they are ffs? Some kind of wise gurus here to teach us corporate enlightenment. GTFO fail tards! Enough is enough. They ARE making money. They just want more cuz they are greedy unsatiable elite sociopathe. ( Like all the rest of them big wig suits.)
Corporate greed is like cancer! It will feed until it kills... Periode.
GG boys... Now take a hike and bring your propaganda with you.
But we all know they will continu with that "But its not gambling" crap.
You know that video games are played by kids right... Bah, nvm. Its like talking to programmed robots.
If you are a gamer, the only solution is this: Play those games, play all you want, use their resources, use their bandwith, but never give them a penny. Use some self control damn it. I know you can! That's the ONLY way to protest. Your words don't have any power, but close your wallet and I garranty they will listen eventually.
That will be all. Ty
Dude, you really haven't the slightest clue about the world. If your kid is playing this game, and has a bank account easily accessible, I would say the problem lies with bad parenting, wouldn't you agree?
As far as the whole corporate greed thing goes, no one holds a gun to your head and forces you to spend. Maybe show some damn self control if money is such a problem in your household. idk about you but the greediest thing I've ever seen is someone at the supermarket complain about how their 20 cent off coupon isn't working on a dollar item, and makes every employees day miserable because they couldn't save 2 dimes. THAT is greed, my friend. It's in us all, so either live with it, or go live in the Ukraine and stop posting on forums.
No matter how to try to explain it, RNG boxes are basically gambling. Really sorry to see Zenimax cheapen the game like this. The almighty dollar always sees to win out.
RNG boxes are not gambling - because there is no RL money you can win in the process.
When we start to approximate "X is basically Y" - it all goes to shit - because you can come up with stuff like - looking at that young co-ed at work is basically adultery, which is basically rape.
So can we please not do the "basically" thing - because you can basically use this to prove any point you want, no matter how erroneous it is.
Now your point on cheapening the game has merit - I can see how for some this is the case - so I get that.
As far as almighty dollar winning - of course - Zenimax is a company in US - making money is the POINT of why they exist, the employees and devs of Zenimax benefit in bonuses and remaining employed if the company does well.
Anyone here who works for any company - is it not much better when the company is performing well and making money? The morale is up, the bonus plans are in, everyone is happy.
Game companies making money is a good thing for the gamers and for the devs.
Your post is just so wrong. I don't know where to start. It most certainly is gambling. Just because it does not fit your definition does not change a thing.
I am all for them making money, I almost always sub when I play their game and I have bought things from the store too. The new RNG boxes though will probably end any chance of my going back to their game. I just really dislike the concept.
I understand the argument of course. TCG's that have a chance to have a special card. Even post NGE Star Wars Galaxies had vehicles and houses you could get from their digital TCG game. Almost everyone I know bought them for the in game items and not for the card game.
Now when you look at something like the ESO Crown Crate, it's actually a container of random consumables. How can you regulate that they can't add in (I'll go Willie Wonka here) a "Golden Ticket" item?
They are selling you consumables, but can you legislate that they NOT put in a special in game item to the box for some player?
If the cost is such that what you are getting value for your purchase, and the "Golden Ticket item" is added value where do you draw the line?
What if the system worked like this: Every time you Purchase an item in the store, you have a random chance to get a mount, regardless of what you purchased?
NO! BS answer. We (the player base) are not concerned with P2W. We are pissed that the most unique collectables will now be locked behind a effing RNG Gambling Box system that we never asked for. BS answer and if he read his own forum he would know that is the biggest anger issue of these stupid boxes.
lol. Zenimax & Bethesda are in no way responsible for people's lack of self control. Addicts are responsible for their actions and should seek help where necessary. But as addiction is not the topic of concern, I shall digress.
Can I give your kids some Crack?
Like would that be ok with you? You know... They don't have to buy it if they don't want to, freedom of choice and all.
Obviously there is no difference in chemical and psychological dependence....
Ever heard of dopamine......
Ya thats what I thought
I am sorry if you are addicted to crack and you suddenly stop what are your chances of death as opposed to stopping gambling if addicted...yeah...dopamine pumps in the brain have absolutely no comparison to chemical interdiction in the brain caused by most hard drugs.
Seems our previous exchange has been moderated.
as I said earlier, "It's over your head"
I was in no way comparing Crack addiction to Gambling addiction. I was attempting to show the quoted poster how preposterous his statement about responsibility was.
Now you can debate that or make all the dumbass insulting comments that you like. Being that you claim to invest in gaming companies, I find your views on the matter of gambling type monetization to be tainted by a conflict of interest.
Comments
I self identify as a monkey.
I believe Matt is proving the commentary about the slippery-slope to be correct.
We just slid, but there is still a ways to go before we reach the bottom of the hill.
It's a bad move Matt
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Like would that be ok with you? You know... They don't have to buy it if they don't want to, freedom of choice and all.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
I'm not reassured.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
See @Iselin post above:
They said they wanted everything to be experienced by playing the game......That changed
See @yonpachi post above:
They said they had no plans to add RNG boxes......That changed
The historical fact that this is a pattern among MMORPGs both within this game and within the entire genre itself give credibility to assume P2W is inevitable. Or at least, it's not a foolish concern. So how can you confidently explain how ESO isn't going down that path? And if you cannot, why did you try to "shame" those who have expressed concern for this eventuality?
Subscription + RNG + Cash Shop trash game more and more look like Asian mmos I hate Arch Age and BlackDessert ...and now Gw2 to....
There are lots and lots of active players game is alive and going well ....Rng Boxes are just greedy move ....that will kill this game it Kills my interest in it .....I won't go thou another Cash Shop shit game like Gw2
Yes it is about making money, so the company can make profit, so they can give their employees their paycheck, so the employees can help contribute to the society by paying taxes...And so on and so on.
OMG - this pathetic discussion continues. Yes gamecompanies will do everything they can to earn money, but at the same time keeping their players stuck. Live with it - or find another game. I doubt that there will ever be an MMO, that won't have some sort of cashdeal included.
But that wasn't why I posted that. I posted it because in the interview Matt went beyond just saying "we're going with a sub model." He went beyond that when he described why the game play experience is better without "monetizing." Something people like to gloss over when they talk about the economic realities of MMO business models: the game play experience is better in a sub game.
It also comes across as something he believed in at that time and he put some passion into his explanation and as we know, the business model changed regardless.
It's also worth looking at Gina Bruno's reddit post from just a year ago that @yonpachi posted where she was addressing the loot box specific concern about the cash shop at that time and said they had no plans to do that. Well that changed and now they have.
So any reassurances about how their loot crates will work in the future despite their google-like mantra of "do no harm" - heartfelt though it might be today - does not really reassure when viewed in context.
All we know for sure is how they're going to be done now. The future is a whole different story.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
In ESO's case you spend 400 crowns and have a chance to get much more than 400 crown's worth of digital goods in return. The rare mounts alone sold or sell for 3000+ crowns.
Walks and talks like a duck from where I'm looking.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
MMORPG: How can you alleviate the concerns that players have expressed?
MF: I think the most common concern is that this is a slippery slope that will lead to monetization chaos and pay-to-win. However, since almost all of the items in Crown Crates are already in the Crown Store to begin with (with the exception of the unique mounts and customization items), that is a baseless fear. Our #1 mantra for virtual currency monetization is “do no harm” – meaning, don’t rock the boat by introducing items into the game that directly influence player power. This is a core design philosophy for the game, and we are not changing it by introducing Crown Crates.
I think it is worth noting that much of this same commentary was expressed when we initially announced the Crown Store back in 2015 – slippery slope, pay-to-win, etc. – there was lots of fear then that was alleviated once players got a chance to see it and try it out for themselves.
You know that the meaning of "alleviate concerns" is awfully similar to reassure don't you?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Ya thats what I thought
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Do I agree with people spending their life savings on a video game rng chance? No. That's a little shifty of ZoS to put in the game. But Does it mean that this is on its way to being a B2W model? Also No. Not a single thing ever available in the crown store (including these crown crates) will improve your gameplay in any way. It's purely cosmetic. All consumables are exactly what they had before in the crown store. Just potions and food and xp boosts (which are ALL available extremely easily in the game anyway). There is no crafting mats available aside from mimic stones (again, cosmetic) and nothing you get anywhere in the crown store OR in these crates will make you a better player or give you any advantage over ANY other player. They have never done that with any crown items, nor do I think they will. So stop your damn speculation and un-sub if you actually ever see B2W appear in eso. Until then, stop out damn complaining about corporations and greed and 'woe is me, the world is so unfair' BS.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I am sorry if you are addicted to crack and you suddenly stop what are your chances of death as opposed to stopping gambling if addicted...yeah...dopamine pumps in the brain have absolutely no comparison to chemical interdiction in the brain caused by most hard drugs.
Dude, you really haven't the slightest clue about the world. If your kid is playing this game, and has a bank account easily accessible, I would say the problem lies with bad parenting, wouldn't you agree?
As far as the whole corporate greed thing goes, no one holds a gun to your head and forces you to spend. Maybe show some damn self control if money is such a problem in your household. idk about you but the greediest thing I've ever seen is someone at the supermarket complain about how their 20 cent off coupon isn't working on a dollar item, and makes every employees day miserable because they couldn't save 2 dimes. THAT is greed, my friend. It's in us all, so either live with it, or go live in the Ukraine and stop posting on forums.
I am all for them making money, I almost always sub when I play their game and I have bought things from the store too. The new RNG boxes though will probably end any chance of my going back to their game. I just really dislike the concept.
I understand the argument of course. TCG's that have a chance to have a special card. Even post NGE Star Wars Galaxies had vehicles and houses you could get from their digital TCG game. Almost everyone I know bought them for the in game items and not for the card game.
Now when you look at something like the ESO Crown Crate, it's actually a container of random consumables. How can you regulate that they can't add in (I'll go Willie Wonka here) a "Golden Ticket" item?
They are selling you consumables, but can you legislate that they NOT put in a special in game item to the box for some player?
If the cost is such that what you are getting value for your purchase, and the "Golden Ticket item" is added value where do you draw the line?
What if the system worked like this: Every time you Purchase an item in the store, you have a random chance to get a mount, regardless of what you purchased?
Is this gambling or added value?
as I said earlier, "It's over your head"
I was in no way comparing Crack addiction to Gambling addiction. I was attempting to show the quoted poster how preposterous his statement about responsibility was.
Now you can debate that or make all the dumbass insulting comments that you like. Being that you claim to invest in gaming companies, I find your views on the matter of gambling type monetization to be tainted by a conflict of interest.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee