IMO, crafting should be hard work. This should be one of those "fun minigames".
Have to be a really good game or its going to be boring quick after so many craftings.
It should hard work and boring and have great results. Should be extremely annoying to the instant gratification crowd which makes it fun AND rewarding to those who put in the effort.
Its nothing to do with instant gratification. It would make crafting even more niche. Fable 3 or 2 I believe had a crafting mini game. It got old after a week. Having one for months or years would boring.
Crafting mini game singular? I think I found the problem. Have a bunch of different crafting mini games like A Tale in the Desert or at least Puzzle Pirates and it takes a lot longer to get old.
IMO, crafting should be hard work. This should be one of those "fun minigames".
Have to be a really good game or its going to be boring quick after so many craftings.
It should hard work and boring and have great results. Should be extremely annoying to the instant gratification crowd which makes it fun AND rewarding to those who put in the effort.
Its nothing to do with instant gratification. It would make crafting even more niche. Fable 3 or 2 I believe had a crafting mini game. It got old after a week. Having one for months or years would boring.
Crafting mini game singular? I think I found the problem. Have a bunch of different crafting mini games like A Tale in the Desert or at least Puzzle Pirates and it takes a lot longer to get old.
I find this giggle worthy as well. Especially when you could consider combat a minigame(with many moving parts), to get at the real game of getting a good number of people in the same place to do the same thing for a while(or any number of other things).
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
"Crafting" encompasses a number of distinct steps, so need to address each of them to make it "good".
1) Learning
So, most games I've played with crafting, the learning bit is automated and involves no gameplay. You either buy recipes and click on them to learn, or you learn new stuff when you level up. This is the first step that needs to be addressed. I think the only things you should be able to learn this way are the core concepts.
For example, read a book to learn basics of smelting, tempering, hammering shapes etc in the case of a blacksmith. From then on, all learning should either be based on observation (getting another blacksmith to show you how to do something) or practice.
So, if I wanted how to make a steel broadsword, I'd need to learn the following techniques:
Forge Management (i.e. setting right temperatures / environments)
These are essentially the crafting skills to learn. Once learned, I would then have the ability to make a broadsword. The quality would vary, but at least the learning part is somewhat realistic. Would also allow for specialisation, for example, I might specialise in Axe heads and be the best on my server, whilst another crafter had specialised in forge management and smelting and could make the best iron ingots.
2) Choosing what to craft
Another biggie. If your game has best-in-slot gear, your game has failed at itemisation. A good crafting system should have a wide variety of items that are worth crafting. This is one of the exciting parts - deciding what is awesome to craft. Its exciting to finally decide to make that epic sword, or a new full armour set.
3) Experimenting
Kinda an extension to learning, experimentation is crucial to crafting. You're friend may have explained how to make a steel sword, but that doesn't mean you can do it. A good crafting system should allow you to practice and experiment. Practicing will increase your proficiency, but experimenting will help with learning as well as increasing proficiency.
So, making steel ingots for example. Steel is an iron alloy, but in a fantasy game, what happens if you add, say, dragon scales to the alloy? Or, what happens if you set the forge temperature 10degrees higher? Crafters should be able to experiment, both to learn new things as well as to just get better.
4) Gathering
Usually one of the most boring parts of crafting, you actually have to gather raw materials. I liked SWGs and SW:TORs approaches. SWG, you had to put effort into finding the resources but then you just set up a harvester and let it run. Come back 24hrs later to collect a ton of materials. SW:TOR, was all about companions doing it for you. Boring to manage but at least you could still play the game. Some games have tried minigames for gathering (thinking mining in FF) but after the first few times these only seem to serve to prolong the process.
5) Crafting
So, you've gathered the materials, chosen what you want to make and have decided how you want to experiment. Time to actually craft! Mostly, this is just a case of pressing a button. Boring. FF tried minigames - mostly boring. Where is the skill? Where is the gameplay?
I realise we don't yet have the capability to simulate actual crafting, but we could add some interesting decisions to the process. So, when making a sword, how many times do you fold the metal? How quickly do you temper the metal? Where along the blade do you beat the metal to get the edge?
There must be some decent way to add meaningful decisions to the crafting process so that, through dedication, the top crafters will be able to make items distinctly better than amateurs. Maybe that extra fold of metal will add more durability. Maybe beating the blade in just the right order will improve the balance, allowing quicker attack speed? However you do it, player skill should be added to the process.
6) Selling
This may sound odd, but I've never met a crafter in an MMO who actually enjoyed the crafting process. They all found it boring, or at best, hypnotically relaxing. They all, without fail, got their enjoyment from the economy. Deciding to make something rare (so they could make money) or cornering the market for something specific (to make money) seems to be where most crafters find the fun. Even SWG, the people I knew who mained crafters still hated crafting - I mean, its fecking boring - but they got their pleasure from being the best armoursmith on Tattooine, or making the best powerhammers on the server, or simply having tons and tons of money.
Having a healthy economy in game is very hard. Most games fail because dropped loot is so superior to crafted goods. Combine this with items that never break and you've got a recipe for a dead economy. Crafted goods must be the best, and crafted goods must be perishable. This will keep a very healthy supply-and-demand mechanic going. Make this even better with mostly horizontal progression (so that 1000s of items are worth crafting, rather than just 20-30) and you've got a game where playing the market is really worth while.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Like many others have already said. When crafting is just a click->wait->collect function that can mass produce items in order to level up your crafting skill, it gets really boring, really fast.
I'd love to see more engagement in crafting mechaincs. The best example I've seen of this in a game is in Dark Messiah. It wasn't really a "crafting skill" as much as it was a one-off event in the game.
The way it worked was, you had to go and pick up some ingots and drop them in a smelting bucket. Then go pull a lever to move the bucket into the forge. Then you had to work the bellows until it was sufficiently melted, after which you had to quickly pull the lever again to get the bucket out, and tip it into a casting mold. Then, you had to pick up the cast blade and hammer it into shape while it was hot. If it cooled down too much, you'd have to stick it into the furnace again for a while. When done, you had to cool it off in some nearby water, fit it with a crossguard and handle and then you'd be done.
All this had to be done within the game world, and not through menus. It was awesome.
A crafting system drawing inspiration from this (perhaps not necessarily as intricate) would be awesome I think. Especially if paired with fitting skill challenges or minigames, that affect the quality of the end product, making it possible to be a better crafter depending on how much effort you put into it.
A version of this in an MMO would be really great IMO. If crafting actually matters in a game the process in which materials are gathered and the process in which items are crafted should matter as well. That way there is more than a statistical difference between those who really want to craft and those who do not.
Funny enough my daughter used to play a cooking game on her DS where you had to use your pen/finger to drag, open, close and mold things to cook them. I always thought something like that would be a great way to implement crafting into an MMO that is more engaging. After seeing this video I think having separate "stages" or places to stand, that would then open a way to use your cursor to manipulate the resources would be a great pairing.
Edit: If this type of crafting was implemented maybe a developer could create an app with the same features so that people could craft with the items they have in their inventory.
I have looked into some real life crafting and I have to say I cant agree.
Lets take a look at making cordage from plant fiber for example, the process itself is interesting to learn actually DOING it is not as much.
making terrain flat is intresting to plan to and figure out how much you want to do but actually digging for 8+ hours a day is really not.
planning on how to make a house, materials needs, design of the home itself is intresting, carrying lumber on your back for 8 hours a day is not.
etc
Oh, I was not insinuating that the process be exactly like it would be in real life, just more realistic interpretation of it. As it stands now crafting is fairly boring in 99% of MMORPGs. Making the process more involved would add value to the items and give those career crafters something to really enjoy.
I think what I am trying to illustrate is that in real life crafting (lets say making a shack as an example) the boring parts are actually what is being described as the 'doing part'. so it might be a worthy warning to be sure your not making the 'boring part' of making a home the part you do the most of in your game.
it also might be worth mentioning that some people are going to find crafting boring regardless because its not a pillar of their personality like it is with other people. It can be in some respects like trying to make socailization fun for those who dont like to socailize in the first place
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Comments
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
1) Learning
So, most games I've played with crafting, the learning bit is automated and involves no gameplay. You either buy recipes and click on them to learn, or you learn new stuff when you level up. This is the first step that needs to be addressed. I think the only things you should be able to learn this way are the core concepts.
For example, read a book to learn basics of smelting, tempering, hammering shapes etc in the case of a blacksmith. From then on, all learning should either be based on observation (getting another blacksmith to show you how to do something) or practice.
So, if I wanted how to make a steel broadsword, I'd need to learn the following techniques:
- Forge Management (i.e. setting right temperatures / environments)
- Smelting: Iron Ore -> Iron Ingots -> Steel Ingots
- Shaping: Basic Blade -> Sword -> Broadsword + Basic Hilt
- Tempering
- etc
These are essentially the crafting skills to learn. Once learned, I would then have the ability to make a broadsword. The quality would vary, but at least the learning part is somewhat realistic. Would also allow for specialisation, for example, I might specialise in Axe heads and be the best on my server, whilst another crafter had specialised in forge management and smelting and could make the best iron ingots.2) Choosing what to craft
Another biggie. If your game has best-in-slot gear, your game has failed at itemisation. A good crafting system should have a wide variety of items that are worth crafting. This is one of the exciting parts - deciding what is awesome to craft. Its exciting to finally decide to make that epic sword, or a new full armour set.
3) Experimenting
Kinda an extension to learning, experimentation is crucial to crafting. You're friend may have explained how to make a steel sword, but that doesn't mean you can do it. A good crafting system should allow you to practice and experiment. Practicing will increase your proficiency, but experimenting will help with learning as well as increasing proficiency.
So, making steel ingots for example. Steel is an iron alloy, but in a fantasy game, what happens if you add, say, dragon scales to the alloy? Or, what happens if you set the forge temperature 10degrees higher? Crafters should be able to experiment, both to learn new things as well as to just get better.
4) Gathering
Usually one of the most boring parts of crafting, you actually have to gather raw materials. I liked SWGs and SW:TORs approaches. SWG, you had to put effort into finding the resources but then you just set up a harvester and let it run. Come back 24hrs later to collect a ton of materials. SW:TOR, was all about companions doing it for you. Boring to manage but at least you could still play the game. Some games have tried minigames for gathering (thinking mining in FF) but after the first few times these only seem to serve to prolong the process.
5) Crafting
So, you've gathered the materials, chosen what you want to make and have decided how you want to experiment. Time to actually craft! Mostly, this is just a case of pressing a button. Boring. FF tried minigames - mostly boring. Where is the skill? Where is the gameplay?
I realise we don't yet have the capability to simulate actual crafting, but we could add some interesting decisions to the process. So, when making a sword, how many times do you fold the metal? How quickly do you temper the metal? Where along the blade do you beat the metal to get the edge?
There must be some decent way to add meaningful decisions to the crafting process so that, through dedication, the top crafters will be able to make items distinctly better than amateurs. Maybe that extra fold of metal will add more durability. Maybe beating the blade in just the right order will improve the balance, allowing quicker attack speed? However you do it, player skill should be added to the process.
6) Selling
This may sound odd, but I've never met a crafter in an MMO who actually enjoyed the crafting process. They all found it boring, or at best, hypnotically relaxing. They all, without fail, got their enjoyment from the economy. Deciding to make something rare (so they could make money) or cornering the market for something specific (to make money) seems to be where most crafters find the fun. Even SWG, the people I knew who mained crafters still hated crafting - I mean, its fecking boring - but they got their pleasure from being the best armoursmith on Tattooine, or making the best powerhammers on the server, or simply having tons and tons of money.
Having a healthy economy in game is very hard. Most games fail because dropped loot is so superior to crafted goods. Combine this with items that never break and you've got a recipe for a dead economy. Crafted goods must be the best, and crafted goods must be perishable. This will keep a very healthy supply-and-demand mechanic going. Make this even better with mostly horizontal progression (so that 1000s of items are worth crafting, rather than just 20-30) and you've got a game where playing the market is really worth while.
it also might be worth mentioning that some people are going to find crafting boring regardless because its not a pillar of their personality like it is with other people. It can be in some respects like trying to make socailization fun for those who dont like to socailize in the first place
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me