The issue with holding up LoL or Half Life as examples is the monthly cost for maintaining and providing content for them is nothing compared to an MMO. So what is an MMO to do? More so a Western developer where payroll can eat up as much if not more than a third of your revenue
LoL has just as much upkeep as an MMO - they have to keep online servers spinning. They are pushing content (in the form of additional play characters). A MOBA isn't an MMO, I will give you that, but in terms of development and upkeep, it's not that dissimilar either.
MMOs biggest expense is on growth - adding new content in particular. Just keeping the servers running and the lights on with basic tech support isn't the expensive, and if anything SoE/Daybreak have shown you can do that for a very long time on a limited budget. But generating new content is. And that's the catch-22 of MMOs: if you lose intertia, you pretty much die. Players always want new content, new content is very expensive, new players won't come to a game without the existing players being happy, and you gotta have the players paying to fund that content. You gotta find a way to keep that wheel turning.
Is it difficult? Absolutely. Is it impossible? Well, obviously it's possible, the only real question is how long is it sustainable. And that's a per-title question, not a genre-wide question. Some MMOs last for years and years, some putter along on life support, others flounder out of the gate.
I got into loot boxes with STO until someone posted the odds of getting what you want. After that I leave them alone.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I dont really feel as if overwatch's lootboxes are an issue I think they are great incentives to grind out a level each day. I mean you literally get one every single level so if you buy them thats on you...
Yeah I usually get about 2 or 3 a day since I enjoy playing the game so much. And they are cosmetic only.
There was a little bit of a stir when they released the summer game boxes with exclusive skins, but I think most people made peace with the fact that they couldn't get that summer games lucio skin they wanted or whatever.
I think we have to allow for some kind of monitization beyond a box price, but I don't think it should ever affect gameplay. So I'd say p2w is always bad, and p2w lootboxes are certainly always bad (like BnS's Trove "events"). Your strength in-game should be wholly determined by your efforts in the game, otherwise it demotivates people and undermines any achievement.
Personally i like the idea for what it is... Gambling. And i like it for the very same reasons. I never expect to win big but i enjoy that little tickle before i open the box. I am realistic and i have worked in places that have gambling (bingo/slots) So i am no stranger to seeing what gambling can do to people.
But ofc, as others have pointed out (Jim Sterling have a few good videos on the subject) every time a loot box appears, something in the game is put behind a pay wall. Be it weapons, skins, mounts or simply currency. So when you like Overwatch combine a full price game with boxes... One have the right to be angry... Free to play games, they live from hand to mouth and i do not really begrudge them that. After all console and PC are still miles ahead of the mobile side of things where games like Transformers: Earth Wars want me to shell out 10-100 dollars a day to keep my base in tip top shape and all the best bots equipped.. All through loot boxes.
I think companies should be forced to release the odds on their lootboxes.
If anyone gambles when knowing the odds, that's really his decision. But I don't see any reason why companies should be allowed to make greater profits by making sure that their customers do not know what they are buying.
The challenge I guess then becomes how does a publisher and/or developer create a healthy residual income stream to support a game that needs to always be online, needs continued development funds and needs to account for it's payroll.
The same way that thousands of other businesses do, by creating a product that people want and are willing to subscribe to keep.
You're asking where to find a good system, but it already existed. The system that was best for players was the box price, plus a subscription and then additional costs for expansions. All these companies have to do is build a game that doesn't suck, maintain that game and release expansions on a regular basis that people actually want to play.
Imagine signing up for Satellite TV, but you only get 10 channels. The only way to get extra channels is to open these random loot boxes and see what channels pop out of them. All you want are the football channels, but they are ultra rare drops and you have a buddy who spent $600 just to watch the Patriots play on Sunday. People would go apeshit. There would be rioting in the streets. But for some reason, gamers are just passive drooling window lickers and barely a hand has been raised in protest, and when it is, someone slaps it with a ruler and says they're entitled brats and they need to pay up. It's mind-fucking-blowing to me how passive the community has been.
Give me actual content to pay for and I will part with my money easily. DDO and LOTRO showed the way long time ago. Yeah, they have fallen a fair bit from back then, but the core idea is still there.
Personally I own about every adventure pack and race/class ever released for DDO. That is a fair chunk of money I have parted with for that. But I felt good about every single dime I spent on it.
But paying for consumables and lockboxes/keys is just NOT ok. Hell even subs tend to rub me the wrong way as changes in workload at work can mean that that months sub was money straight out the window. The only reason I accept it in EVE is be course I at least get skill point even if I do not play, so at least some gain was had.
Yep lootboxes are bad. Especially when they are invasive and suggest you should shell out cash every minute.
I am generally ok with an implementation like DCUO's (but not with the new temporal capsules), sub player can open them for free and generally contain only cosmetic (i.e. styles). Some of those amount to a few fezt points but the amount of those is so negligible that they really are not a double-dip advantage for subbed players (and if ever happens, it's just giving more incentive to sub).
So much for the tin foil hat supposition that we're paid by developers, wouldn't you say?
NO! We only trust Lewis now....
(jk)
Bill had some interesting arguments but the main thing I disagreed with was the premise that we should stop complaining at all. Granted, I'd love that developers would look for and react positively to constructive criticism/feedback but it seems that if they are going to react at all, it's only against a large amount of complaints. And if we don't provide them with the feedback to make our games better, we deserve the crap they keep dishing out.
I hope that everyone who so roundly castigated @BillMurphy in his article last week, appreciate and understand that our staff has a diverse set of opinions and we're not afraid or reluctant to present both sides of the issue.
So much for the tin foil hat supposition that we're paid by developers, wouldn't you say?
Thanks for the article. I see the big fat check I wrote you cleared! haha
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I hate the damn things but isn't the whole F2P model built around gambling to make their money. Obviously subscriptions weren't working or they wouldn't have changed.
And now a whole bunch of people have grown up with not having to pay is it even possible to go back to say B2P for these people or will they just always want it for free?
1. they are the only source of income and cosmetic only. 2. They are offered in a game i want to support and I've bought everything else I really want.
While it may be unpopular, I do not agree with the idea that lootboxes are evil by design. Can they be abused, absolutely! However, lootboxes and cashshops in general provide one option for a company to continue to bring in revenue after launch without a sub fee. Personally, I don't mind throwing a few dollars a developer's way every so often to show my support for their game and vision (either by sub fee or lootbox).
Playing and enjoying the game is the reward itself. People focus too much on what they feel they're entitled to, instead of looking at the whole picture. Are there greedy loot box systems out there? Yeah. But complaining about systems like Overwatch? Really?
While I'm never in favor of people intentionally taking advantage of others solely for profit, I'm also fairly callous in my viewpoint that we are also all responsible for our own decisions. Cash-shop loot boxes suck in the same way that offering a high interest loan to someone with little or no chance of paying it back sucks, and yet those people are still willing to sign on the dotted line that says 36% on it. Do I approve of companies that specifically target the uninformed and weak-willed? Not at all. Do I think some responsibility lies with the "victims" who either don't understand or can't exhibit some control over their finances? Absolutely.
@PersistentWorld, Ever hear the terms P2W or Play 4 Free (P4F)? That is why we have loot boxes. You want something for $20, not without someone crying P2W over it. They industry came up with loot boxes to pay for the expense of P4F gamers. This mean that everyone buying loot boxes is paying the expense of those who don't use the cash shop, so they can play for free.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
1. they are the only source of income and cosmetic only.[Translation : I won't spend money on this.] 2. They are offered in a game i want to support and I've bought everything else I really want.[Translation : I don't want to spend money on this.]
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
SBFord said:I hope that everyone who so roundly castigated @BillMurphy in his article last week, appreciate and understand that our staff has a diverse set of opinions and we're not afraid or reluctant to present both sides of the issue. So much for the tin foil hat supposition that we're paid by developers, wouldn't you say?
We can still call him a spy.
On a more serious note. Bill's opinion is just wrong. It may be his choice to believe what he wants, but just like I can choose to believe the world is flat, but that certainly doesn't make my opinion correct. Opinions are just our beliefs formed from whatever information we can gather. It is ultimately up to a person determine whether or not the quantity and validity of that information is enough to from a correct opinion.
I think most people don't have faith in gaming journalism because they simply don't do a good job. When was the last time anyone ever saw a cost analysis of a microtransaction shop? The answer is never because nobody does them, which is absurd, since it is the single most important game mechanic in the microtransaction business model.
Don't buy them. Problem solved. It seems an awful lot of people have problems with how other people spend their money. If people wanna gamble a bit, let them.
I wonder if the objections to lock boxes is based on an aversion to gambling, or something more fundamental, such as the base price of keys. Many games use $1.00 as the basic price for keys. I wonder if they would make more money overall if the keys were 4 keys / $1? They could run sales in the cash shops, with keys at 5 keys / $1. It would be pretty simple to adjust the reward probabilities down to compensate.
I don't like gambling at $1 a chance, especially for a virtual gain. But I might be more willing to take a chance at $0.25 a chance. At $0.10 per chance, I'd probably be a semi-regular, even considering my miserly ways and fixed income.
Game companies remind me of an old joke about a PC salesman who tried to sell PCs for $10 million dollars each. When questioned about the high price, he responded, "With my commission, I only have to sell 1."
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Comments
MMOs biggest expense is on growth - adding new content in particular. Just keeping the servers running and the lights on with basic tech support isn't the expensive, and if anything SoE/Daybreak have shown you can do that for a very long time on a limited budget. But generating new content is. And that's the catch-22 of MMOs: if you lose intertia, you pretty much die. Players always want new content, new content is very expensive, new players won't come to a game without the existing players being happy, and you gotta have the players paying to fund that content. You gotta find a way to keep that wheel turning.
Is it difficult? Absolutely. Is it impossible? Well, obviously it's possible, the only real question is how long is it sustainable. And that's a per-title question, not a genre-wide question. Some MMOs last for years and years, some putter along on life support, others flounder out of the gate.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Yeah I usually get about 2 or 3 a day since I enjoy playing the game so much. And they are cosmetic only.
There was a little bit of a stir when they released the summer game boxes with exclusive skins, but I think most people made peace with the fact that they couldn't get that summer games lucio skin they wanted or whatever.
I think we have to allow for some kind of monitization beyond a box price, but I don't think it should ever affect gameplay. So I'd say p2w is always bad, and p2w lootboxes are certainly always bad (like BnS's Trove "events"). Your strength in-game should be wholly determined by your efforts in the game, otherwise it demotivates people and undermines any achievement.
But ofc, as others have pointed out (Jim Sterling have a few good videos on the subject) every time a loot box appears, something in the game is put behind a pay wall. Be it weapons, skins, mounts or simply currency. So when you like Overwatch combine a full price game with boxes... One have the right to be angry... Free to play games, they live from hand to mouth and i do not really begrudge them that. After all console and PC are still miles ahead of the mobile side of things where games like Transformers: Earth Wars want me to shell out 10-100 dollars a day to keep my base in tip top shape and all the best bots equipped.. All through loot boxes.
This have been a good conversation
If anyone gambles when knowing the odds, that's really his decision. But I don't see any reason why companies should be allowed to make greater profits by making sure that their customers do not know what they are buying.
You're asking where to find a good system, but it already existed. The system that was best for players was the box price, plus a subscription and then additional costs for expansions. All these companies have to do is build a game that doesn't suck, maintain that game and release expansions on a regular basis that people actually want to play.
Imagine signing up for Satellite TV, but you only get 10 channels. The only way to get extra channels is to open these random loot boxes and see what channels pop out of them. All you want are the football channels, but they are ultra rare drops and you have a buddy who spent $600 just to watch the Patriots play on Sunday. People would go apeshit. There would be rioting in the streets. But for some reason, gamers are just passive drooling window lickers and barely a hand has been raised in protest, and when it is, someone slaps it with a ruler and says they're entitled brats and they need to pay up. It's mind-fucking-blowing to me how passive the community has been.
Personally I own about every adventure pack and race/class ever released for DDO. That is a fair chunk of money I have parted with for that. But I felt good about every single dime I spent on it.
But paying for consumables and lockboxes/keys is just NOT ok. Hell even subs tend to rub me the wrong way as changes in workload at work can mean that that months sub was money straight out the window. The only reason I accept it in EVE is be course I at least get skill point even if I do not play, so at least some gain was had.
I am generally ok with an implementation like DCUO's (but not with the new temporal capsules), sub player can open them for free and generally contain only cosmetic (i.e. styles). Some of those amount to a few fezt points but the amount of those is so negligible that they really are not a double-dip advantage for subbed players (and if ever happens, it's just giving more incentive to sub).
NO! We only trust Lewis now....
(jk)
Bill had some interesting arguments but the main thing I disagreed with was the premise that we should stop complaining at all. Granted, I'd love that developers would look for and react positively to constructive criticism/feedback but it seems that if they are going to react at all, it's only against a large amount of complaints. And if we don't provide them with the feedback to make our games better, we deserve the crap they keep dishing out.
Thanks for the article. I see the big fat check I wrote you cleared! haha
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
And now a whole bunch of people have grown up with not having to pay is it even possible to go back to say B2P for these people or will they just always want it for free?
1. they are the only source of income and cosmetic only.
2. They are offered in a game i want to support and I've bought everything else I really want.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
We can still call him a spy.
On a more serious note. Bill's opinion is just wrong. It may be his choice to believe what he wants, but just like I can choose to believe the world is flat, but that certainly doesn't make my opinion correct. Opinions are just our beliefs formed from whatever information we can gather. It is ultimately up to a person determine whether or not the quantity and validity of that information is enough to from a correct opinion.
I think most people don't have faith in gaming journalism because they simply don't do a good job. When was the last time anyone ever saw a cost analysis of a microtransaction shop? The answer is never because nobody does them, which is absurd, since it is the single most important game mechanic in the microtransaction business model.
I self identify as a monkey.
Playing: Smite, Marvel Heroes
Played: Nexus:Kingdom of the Winds, Everquest, DAoC, Everquest 2, WoW, Matrix Online, Vangaurd, SWG, DDO, EVE, Fallen Earth, LoTRo, CoX, Champions Online, WAR, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Guild Wars, Rift, Tera, Aion, AoC, Gods and Heroes, DCUO, FF14, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, ArcheAge
Waiting On: Nothing. Mmorpg's are dead.
I don't like gambling at $1 a chance, especially for a virtual gain. But I might be more willing to take a chance at $0.25 a chance. At $0.10 per chance, I'd probably be a semi-regular, even considering my miserly ways and fixed income.
Game companies remind me of an old joke about a PC salesman who tried to sell PCs for $10 million dollars each. When questioned about the high price, he responded, "With my commission, I only have to sell 1."
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.