Why are MOBA associated with MMO and not RTS?

Vermillion_Raventhal

Essentially the first MOBA were literally scaled back RTS mods.  I have been trying to figure out the connect to being a MMO.  I guess it's just the demographics.

Cecropia

I've often wondered the same thing. Literally makes zero sense. 

Scot

It is marketing, RTS has not exactly been up there as a genre for years. This is a gaming market that calls MMO like games 'World of' or 'League of' just to cash in on the success of another game. So calling them MMOs or MMO-like was as obvious as it is irritating.

iixviiiix

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Essentially the first MOBA were literally scaled back RTS mods.  I have been trying to figure out the connect to being a MMO.  I guess it's just the demographics.

Can't wait someone call warcraft 3 MMO lol , and diablo 2 too . Good laugh for while , thank hahaha

Loke666

Some moronic game journalist probably decided it and it stuck.

iixviiiix said:

Can't wait someone call warcraft 3 MMO lol , and diablo 2 too . Good laugh for while , thank hahaha

Don't laugh, a lot of people call Diablo 3 a MMO. Soon people will call any game with an online multiplayer function a MMO, it will happen.

Phry

The trouble is, when people say MOBA, the automatic assumption is that its games like LoL, it actually encompasses games like WoT, any game really that has an online element that involves a battleground or arena with a limited number of players, and if you look at the wiki, it is based on RTS games, rather than, as some try to infer, MMO's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplayer_online_battle_arena

Phry

Loke666 said:

Some moronic game journalist probably decided it and it stuck.

iixviiiix said:

Can't wait someone call warcraft 3 MMO lol , and diablo 2 too . Good laugh for while , thank hahaha

Don't laugh, a lot of people call Diablo 3 a MMO. Soon people will call any game with an online multiplayer function a MMO, it will happen.

Its a fingers and math problem, like, 1, 2, lots...

azarhal

iixviiiix said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Essentially the first MOBA were literally scaled back RTS mods.  I have been trying to figure out the connect to being a MMO.  I guess it's just the demographics.

Can't wait someone call warcraft 3 MMO lol , and diablo 2 too . Good laugh for while , thank hahaha

Already happened, I know a guy who calls anything with an online feature a MMO. Doesn't matter if you can see other players while playing either. Having an online connection requirement is enough.

Panther2103

It's because it's a giant generalization by people who don't know genre. It has a lot of players, it's multiplayer, it's online so they associate it with MMO's, when it did come from RTS games. But the thing is, it wasn't an RTS at all. So it shouldn't be associated with it in anything more than it spawned from a game that was an RTS. It isn't a real time strategy game in any way other than look. Just like it isn't an MMO in any way other than it's online and has a lot of people. That's why it has it's own genre. 

Quirhid

MOBAs are far closer to MMORPGs in gameplay and combat mechanics than to RTSes. This should be a no-brainer.

mgilbrtsn

I truly don't understand why it bothers people.  When looking at games to play, I read and do a bit of research so that I know what I'm getting into.  If I want a MOBA and see a game called an MMO but is a MOBA.  I play it.  I'm unconcerned about the terminology.  There are a lot bigger things to worry about:  gameplay, options, ui, graphics, bugs.....  A term, meh.

I get it that it is a bit of an annoyance, but, such a minor one.  We have a lot bigger fish to fry. mmmmm fish

waynejr2

mgilbrtsn said:

I truly don't understand why it bothers people.  When looking at games to play, I read and do a bit of research so that I know what I'm getting into.  If I want a MOBA and see a game called an MMO but is a MOBA.  I play it.  I'm unconcerned about the terminology.  There are a lot bigger things to worry about:  gameplay, options, ui, graphics, bugs.....  A term, meh.

I get it that it is a bit of an annoyance, but, such a minor one.  We have a lot bigger fish to fry. mmmmm fish

It bothers me when people say mmo when they specifically mean mmoRPG and they also get upset when other non-mmoRPGs are also called mmo.  I believe when people mean some specific type of game, writing mmo is rather than the specific is wrong.  So people when you mean mmoRPG write mmoRPG not mmo. 

mgilbrtsn

waynejr2 said:

mgilbrtsn said:

I truly don't understand why it bothers people.  When looking at games to play, I read and do a bit of research so that I know what I'm getting into.  If I want a MOBA and see a game called an MMO but is a MOBA.  I play it.  I'm unconcerned about the terminology.  There are a lot bigger things to worry about:  gameplay, options, ui, graphics, bugs.....  A term, meh.

I get it that it is a bit of an annoyance, but, such a minor one.  We have a lot bigger fish to fry. mmmmm fish

It bothers me when people say mmo when they specifically mean mmoRPG and they also get upset when other non-mmoRPGs are also called mmo.  I believe when people mean some specific type of game, writing mmo is rather than the specific is wrong.  So people when you mean mmoRPG write mmoRPG not mmo. 

I understand that it can be annoying.  However, ppl seem to let it get to them more than it seems to warrent.

Deivos

Quirhid said:

MOBAs are far closer to MMORPGs in gameplay and combat mechanics than to RTSes. This should be a no-brainer.

Going for irony there or acting as an example of what the problem is?

Quirhid

Phry said:

The trouble is, when people say MOBA, the automatic assumption is that its games like LoL, it actually encompasses games like WoT, any game really that has an online element that involves a battleground or arena with a limited number of players, and if you look at the wiki, it is based on RTS games, rather than, as some try to infer, MMO's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplayer_online_battle_arena

World of Tanks has a Clan Wars map with every tank (player) as a piece on the board. That's the bigger picture game. Casual players never see this. If one has persistent, shared turn-based strategy game where battles are resolved in instances, isn't it an MMO? And if not, isn't it damn close?

Where do you draw the arbitrary line between MMOs and non-MMOs? And who is qualified to draw that line?

Deivos

Quirhid said:

Phry said:

The trouble is, when people say MOBA, the automatic assumption is that its games like LoL, it actually encompasses games like WoT, any game really that has an online element that involves a battleground or arena with a limited number of players, and if you look at the wiki, it is based on RTS games, rather than, as some try to infer, MMO's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplayer_online_battle_arena

World of Tanks has a Clan Wars map with every tank (player) as a piece on the board. That's the bigger picture game. Casual players never see this. If one has persistent, shared turn-based strategy game where battles are resolved in instances, isn't it an MMO? And if not, isn't it damn close?

Where do you draw the arbitrary line between MMOs and non-MMOs? And who is qualified to draw that line?

That's similar to what MAG did with it's lobby map. It's a persistent element that tracked the associated lobby matches and updated the main battle-map that everyone could look at and pick fights from.

Still wasn't an MMO though. Same case when it comes to titles like WoT as the persistent map used to represent the player's progress is mostly a metagame element supporting the lobby matches, not the actual basis of the game. Clan Wars are also not universal, but they are themselves instanced content that only acts as a persistent element so long as the conflict between two groups is not resolved. If one side wins, then that map and data associated with the province ceases to exist and is replaced by only the data necessary for the Global Map. The Global Map itself is just a browser based plugin that visually organizes these conflicts and it just serves as the interface for entering these lobby matches.

So you are talking about instanced content that only a subset of players can interact with, connecting lobby matches that said only group(s) can interact with.

That's just a visual lobby.

BeansnBread

I know why they aren't associated with RTS. That would be silly. Just as silly as being associated with MMORPGs. MOBAs are MOBAs. I think the games that are in the MOBA genre tend to be very clearly defined and accepted to be in that genre for at least the last decade.

Akulas

It's not an MMO from my definition. Everyones different though.

Loke666

Quirhid said:

MOBAs are far closer to MMORPGs in gameplay and combat mechanics than to RTSes. This should be a no-brainer.

You do have one character with multiple attacks but so does a whole lot of other genres. The really closest thing though is action games like Diablo.

But it ain't either. I still rather have them bunched up with RTS games then MMOs, we already have CORPGs attached to MMOs (DDO, Guildwars, STO) and dding more games further off will just confuse people, and it have already done so. If Mobas are MMOs why not any multiplayer game with some kind of progression? Rainbow 6: Siege and similar games are after all just as much MMOs as Mobas (almost no real MMOs features but limited progression and multiplayer).

 The whole problem is that it gets hard to find real MMOs if all games are labeled as such and we get confused when someone saying they play MMOs.

Many MMOs do have arena PvP but not all games with arenas are MMOs just like mackerel is a fish, all fish live in water but assuming that all things that live in water is fish, or mackerel to make things even worse is just messing up facts.

Quirhid

Deivos said:

Quirhid said:

Phry said:

The trouble is, when people say MOBA, the automatic assumption is that its games like LoL, it actually encompasses games like WoT, any game really that has an online element that involves a battleground or arena with a limited number of players, and if you look at the wiki, it is based on RTS games, rather than, as some try to infer, MMO's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplayer_online_battle_arena

World of Tanks has a Clan Wars map with every tank (player) as a piece on the board. That's the bigger picture game. Casual players never see this. If one has persistent, shared turn-based strategy game where battles are resolved in instances, isn't it an MMO? And if not, isn't it damn close?

Where do you draw the arbitrary line between MMOs and non-MMOs? And who is qualified to draw that line?

That's similar to what MAG did with it's lobby map. It's a persistent element that tracked the associated lobby matches and updated the main battle-map that everyone could look at and pick fights from.

Still wasn't an MMO though. Same case when it comes to titles like WoT as the persistent map used to represent the player's progress is mostly a metagame element supporting the lobby matches, not the actual basis of the game. Clan Wars are also not universal, but they are themselves instanced content that only acts as a persistent element so long as the conflict between two groups is not resolved. If one side wins, then that map and data associated with the province ceases to exist and is replaced by only the data necessary for the Global Map. The Global Map itself is just a browser based plugin that visually organizes these conflicts and it just serves as the interface for entering these lobby matches.

So you are talking about instanced content that only a subset of players can interact with, connecting lobby matches that said only group(s) can interact with.

That's just a visual lobby.

Nothing wrong with lobbies, visual or otherwise. Who says MMO's can't have them?

Deivos

MMOs can have a visual lobby, but a lobby is not itself an MMO.

That argument is moot.

Iselin

Deivos said:

MMOs can have a visual lobby, but a lobby is not itself an MMO.

That argument is moot.

Agreed. But that seems to confuse the crap out of some people.

I've always thought those were the people who only play WOW camped at the AH while they queue for dungeons and/or scenario PVP matches.

elveone

MOBAs are sped up usually online PvPvE RPGs. They are associated with MMORPGs because they are usually persistently online and because both genres were popular at the same time and had somewhat common people playing them. People do associate them with RTS as well because of the common ancestry and the high skill ceiling but let's be honest RTS is not a really popular genre in recent years.

Scot

Phry said:

The trouble is, when people say MOBA, the automatic assumption is that its games like LoL, it actually encompasses games like WoT, any game really that has an online element that involves a battleground or arena with a limited number of players, and if you look at the wiki, it is based on RTS games, rather than, as some try to infer, MMO's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplayer_online_battle_arena

If you look at something like Metacritic, MMO's do not even have their own section. They appear if you tag lists like RTS or Roleplaying. MOBA does not feature either but comes under the RTS banner.

This leads to a lot of confusion which is purposeful to my mind. 'Like MOBA's this is for you, like MMO's this is for you.' Drawing in the audience to a game that is not what they really want.

Meanwhile Wrestling gets its own spot at Metacritic, because there is no way we would be able to work out a game is a wrestling game without the label.  

Phry

elveone said:

MOBAs are sped up usually online PvPvE RPGs. They are associated with MMORPGs because they are usually persistently online and because both genres were popular at the same time and had somewhat common people playing them. People do associate them with RTS as well because of the common ancestry and the high skill ceiling but let's be honest RTS is not a really popular genre in recent years.

That MOBA's are linked to Action based Real Time Strategy games, is kind of obvious when you think of it, its a natural progression, you have Lane games like LoL that fall into that category almost perfectly, its in effect a multiplayer online version, LoL is not by any definition an RPG, what probably confuses people is the RTS part, that LoL is action based i think most would agree with, but real time just means it isn't turn based, and strategy, well LoL is a lane based game and there is a certain amount of strategy required if you want to help your team win. MOBA just looks better i guess than MOARTS. But both describe the type of game LoL is.

Iselin

Phry said:

elveone said:

MOBAs are sped up usually online PvPvE RPGs. They are associated with MMORPGs because they are usually persistently online and because both genres were popular at the same time and had somewhat common people playing them. People do associate them with RTS as well because of the common ancestry and the high skill ceiling but let's be honest RTS is not a really popular genre in recent years.

That MOBA's are linked to Action based Real Time Strategy games, is kind of obvious when you think of it, its a natural progression, you have Lane games like LoL that fall into that category almost perfectly, its in effect a multiplayer online version, LoL is not by any definition an RPG, what probably confuses people is the RTS part, that LoL is action based i think most would agree with, but real time just means it isn't turn based, and strategy, well LoL is a lane based game and there is a certain amount of strategy required if you want to help your team win. MOBA just looks better i guess than MOARTS. But both describe the type of game LoL is.

Well if you want to go back a bit farther the term RTS was coined when these games first came onto the scene, specifically as part of the DUNE II marketting campaign in the early 90's to differentiate them from the traditional turn-based, strategy games... most of which were war games.

It wasn't because the games have "strategy" in them (which game doesn't? ) but just to differentiate them from their turn-based predecessors that date back to pre-computer board war-games.

But RTS games are nevertheless strategy games that tend tend to be lengthy games compared to the MOBAs they spawned. MOBAs stripped most of the strategic building and planning elements to focus on the combat part of RTS and the matches are designed to be of much shorter duration than a strategy game.

They may have been spawned by RTS games but they're their own unique thing now.