Time-to-win is only a problem under very specific situations.
1) Large Power Gaps
If time spent in game has a direct correlation to your characters power then this is an issue. This is bad game design. Luckily, most games don't follow this rule. The power curve is generally inverse-exponential - large power increases at the start, but as you spend more and more time in a game, you gain less and less power until eventually you stop.
This means that the average power gaps get less and less over time and eventually (usually within a month of hitting endgame) the power gaps completely stop being based on time and become entirely based on player skill (ability to complete the hardest content).
2) Endless character growth
If there is no hard limit to character growth then time spent in game will continuously segregate the community. again, most MMOs don't have this - there is a hard limit to progression, both in terms of skills and gear. Some do go against it, but most conform and have an end.
3) Twitch-based PvP
Any game that relies upon muscle memory to be good will benefit players who can spend all day playing. Shooters are especially guilty of this, but MMOs have started moving into twitch-based gameplay so this is going to become a bigger problem. However, again, there are usually natural physical limits - my arm / hand can only get so good at aiming.
In general, time-to-win and pay-to-win are only issues in situations where players have to compare themselves to one another. This means group content and pvp.
With time being the key to success, you at least know that the person you are playing with has gotten there on their own merits. If they have full raid gear, you at least know they've got the skill to beat that raid. If they've got a high pvp rating, you know they're a good pvper. It is a fair and honest system.
With P2W that is not the case. In PvE, the gear is no longer an indication of player skill, making it harder to form groups and harder to complete content. In PvP, you can no longer make tactical assessments of players based on their gear, removing a fun and important aspect of pvp.
Finally, in a P2W system, you are removing long term goals from the game by handing it to players with a large wallet. This reduces player fun and attachment to their character, thus reducing retention and long term profitability.
So, whilst T2W may be a problem in certain situations, it is at least fair and honest and better (long term) than P2W.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
OP's original statement was great and should have left out basement dweller thingy. People with more time may have a high paying part time job. May be a writer or self employed person with an income from royalties, or retired, or a lot of other situations which gives a person lots of free time.
I have no problem with P2W but I do mostly PvE and have never wanted to be a number one PvP guy on my server, well known by all. But as quiet as it's kept, some of those guys have a lot of time 'and' throw in a ton of money to be number one, and have developed great skills, so saying whales are whales because they have no skills or time are not always correct.
You would care if you cannot craft gear needed to do a dungeon or raid because the odds for crafting it are setup to make you buy in the store or wait thtough months of failure.
I don't know about "fair" but there is a difference.
Playing a game is all about spending time in it presumably because you enjoy the time you spend playing it. Paying extra to avoid spending time in a game sort of defeats the whole purpose of why you're there in the first place doesn't it?
Maybe they're paying for something so they can spend their time doing that activity they want in the game rather than the activity they don't want. People want to do what they want in a game.
Yes. That's why some types of games fit some people better than others. Me? I don't play MOBAs and I hate 15 minute scenario PVP. I'm more of a "live in a world" kind of player which is why I honestly enjoy the journey in MMORPGs and have never used a level-up or accelerated XP scroll or potion in any of them.
This MOBAfication of MMORPGs with instant or accelerated "end-game" gimmicks is a fairly recent post-WOW phenomenon. From a publisher's point of view, it's easy to understand why they're prodding the developers to do this since MOBAs are many times more popular than old-school MMORPGs and they have a better chance of attracting millions if they cater to them.
But from my perspective that's totally at odds with the "living world" purpose of making an MMORPG in the first place. It's like they're making MMORPGs for people that no longer like them or never did, so they undermine themselves by providing the means to play the game as something else, often to the point of being able to skip the majority of the game they developed. It's like saying "You hate our type of game? No problem, we've got you covered with instant level 100 for a small additional fee."
If some people really don't enjoy "the journey" I honestly don't know why they play them when there are so many other non-journey games out there. I mean... are the end games of MMOs really so much better than the games that are nothing but end-game?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
WoW is the only full on MMORPG that has MOBA-fied itself in that you can buy an end game character and what you do this xpac season doesn't really matter next xpac season.
ESO isn't anything like that. You can't buy an end cap character. In fact I think ZoS understands there is a balance to selling away the game and giving players options to focus on what they like.
Say you have a PvP player who likes to live PvP land. He wants a cooler mount so he buys one from the store instead of grinding out something in PvE land to get it. Now he can play PvP on his cool mount and someday when he's spent enough time in PvP land playing he can collect those rewards too.
It doesn't have to be a zero sum game. In most all of our arguments here there is a sort of Highlander approach. There can be only one and if another exists it threatens the life of all the others. That's simply not true unless your names are Connor MacLeod or Juan Sanchez Villa-Lobos Ramirez. :chuffed:
My name is Inigo Montoya...
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
There is another old saying, "Man who goes to bed with itchy butt, wake up with smelly fingers".
Both of these are very true...
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
Is it fair that someone with a lot of time on their hands (the standard basement dweller) should be given a huge advantage over me due to the time they have to spend playing a game?
No.
Is it fair my boss is single and can work a lot more and get farther along in his career/salary? No.
Is it fair that I can't compete in basketball because I'm 5'7" and both of my friends are 6'4"+? No.
Is it fair that I only have one max level character and all my friends have several because they can play more often? No.
Now that we've established those facts, lets move on to the REAL question you were asking...
"Should I be given special treatment because I'm at a disadvantage in comparison to others?"
Want to guess the answer? Again...NO!
You (and I mean the royal 'you' of the whiny entitlement generation) need to pull your heads out of your asses and realize that life has never been fair, isn't fair, and will never be fair. Deal with it. How sad of a human being do you have to be to base your level of enjoyment on what others are doing. If comparing yourself to others in a game bothers you so much, go find something else to do. Games are supposed to be fun.
How many permutations of this same ridiculous question do we have to see every week on MMORPG.com? *groan*
Well, yes, life isn't fair. And one of the reasons games are so appealing, to me at least, is that they often present a landscape in which all things are equal, with the exception of ones mastery of the game.
When I play chess, I want my opponent to have the same advantages and disadvantages as I do. I don't care for the idea that they could pay to make their king move like a queen. I extend that simple concept to video games as well. I like games where everyone is playing by the same set of rules (especially true for PvP). Introducing power for money or saved time for money cheapens the experience for me. It makes it so that people are playing by a different set of rules based on how much disposable income they make or are willing to spend.
Does it bother me if someone else uses money to save time? Not very much. But it really depends on what benefits you get from saving time. If time equals power at a competitive level, then yes, I have a problem with it. But the only thing I'll do is not play that game. If people want to spend their money on these monetization models that trade real money for power, I'm fine with that. I just don't want to participate in something like that.
Some people have lots of time - and will obtain better gear than you in MMOs Some people have lots of money - and will buy better gear than you Some people have lots of skill - and will own you in PvP
There is no equal footing - equality is pipe dream for the naive
So when you go up against a player who has all 3 (money, time and skill) - yeah you're gonna get your ass owned no matter what.
Time, money and skill should ALL be considered, for whatever reason - for most players the only offender is money - when clearly time and skill are as big unbalancing factors when it comes to player power.
I mean someone who buys power through the cash shop and lacks skill and time - will never learn the game - so they get their asses handed to them anyway in PvP - I don't see the issue.
I think always take into account all 3 - time, skill and money, don't only isolate one of those.
It's easy to isolate PvP skill and buying power out of the MMORPG experience... just don't play titles that feature OWPvP and/or P2W
Edit: If one is going to willfully play titles that have all three I agree with you, don't expect fairness.
The reason why I hate boosts (like XP potions for example) is because boosts incentivise the game developers to create artificial grinds. Those grinds are by definition unfun so that you are more likely to buy the boosts from the cashshop and skip them.
Originally posted by nethaniah
Seriously Farmville? Yeah I think it's great. In a World where half our population is dying of hunger the more fortunate half is spending their time harvesting food that doesn't exist.
Rich people are already too pampered, making them best at games because they have the largest wallet just feel wrong to me. Skill should Trump cash (yeah, bad pun).
What is skill?
Is skill developing new technique? Is skill developing new training program? Is skill developing new technology? Is skill developing new nutrition supplement? etc. etc.
The "skill" implies getting better and that always involve money in a way or another.
The idea that you can somehow islolate performance and compare it on "equal footing" with others is unrealistic, absurd and naive.
Yes, but in gaming skill is playing really good. And no, skill does not mean you will earn loads of money. A skill gamemaster in P&P are sought after but at best you get paid in flattery, cookies and maybe a beer. Tesla was the most skilled electrical engineer who ever lived and yet he died poor.
Skill offers advantages though and in MMOs it should cut off a lot of the time people who instead use persistence need to put into the game.
You can clearly not balance "skill" with "time "and "cash "exactly, no but you can reward good players by lessen the grind for them if they instead perform really hard tasks. Thats all I am saying.
Encourage players to actually learn to play as good as possible instead of just making the most effective way to play just to outlevel and outgear the content. Or worse, just paying loads of cash to get the same result.
Time-to-win is only a problem under very specific situations.
1) Large Power Gaps
If time spent in game has a direct correlation to your characters power then this is an issue. This is bad game design. Luckily, most games don't follow this rule. The power curve is generally inverse-exponential - large power increases at the start, but as you spend more and more time in a game, you gain less and less power until eventually you stop.
This means that the average power gaps get less and less over time and eventually (usually within a month of hitting endgame) the power gaps completely stop being based on time and become entirely based on player skill (ability to complete the hardest content).
2) Endless character growth
If there is no hard limit to character growth then time spent in game will continuously segregate the community. again, most MMOs don't have this - there is a hard limit to progression, both in terms of skills and gear. Some do go against it, but most conform and have an end.
3) Twitch-based PvP
Any game that relies upon muscle memory to be good will benefit players who can spend all day playing. Shooters are especially guilty of this, but MMOs have started moving into twitch-based gameplay so this is going to become a bigger problem. However, again, there are usually natural physical limits - my arm / hand can only get so good at aiming.
In general, time-to-win and pay-to-win are only issues in situations where players have to compare themselves to one another. This means group content and pvp.
With time being the key to success, you at least know that the person you are playing with has gotten there on their own merits. If they have full raid gear, you at least know they've got the skill to beat that raid. If they've got a high pvp rating, you know they're a good pvper. It is a fair and honest system.
With P2W that is not the case. In PvE, the gear is no longer an indication of player skill, making it harder to form groups and harder to complete content. In PvP, you can no longer make tactical assessments of players based on their gear, removing a fun and important aspect of pvp.
Finally, in a P2W system, you are removing long term goals from the game by handing it to players with a large wallet. This reduces player fun and attachment to their character, thus reducing retention and long term profitability.
So, whilst T2W may be a problem in certain situations, it is at least fair and honest and better (long term) than P2W.
They're similar if not essentially the same. You can say the same things about P2W as you can T2W. You say they're different because you're projecting your biased agenda and asserting is as fact, but in reality you have no facts or proof to back that position. It just fits neatly into the agenda of those seeking to promote an imbalanced time advantage.
Like DMKano said time, money, skill. All three of those are necessary and should be accounted for in balance. The problem being time has ruled out of balance for the most part because it's probably the hardest to reign in.
I'm not really sure what your point is here.
P2W and T2W are definitely very different.
Everyone has 24 hours in their day Not everyone has £1000 a month to spent in a cash shop
So, T2W starts from a position of fairness and becomes more unfair the more time is needed to become dominant. P2W starts from a position of unfairness and becomes more unfair the more is added to the cash shop.
Both are bad, but P2W is completely avoidable whilst T2W is completely unavoidable (because you do actually need to spend time playing a game in order to "win").
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
The reason why I hate boosts (like XP potions for example) is because boosts incentivise the game developers to create artificial grinds. Those grinds are by definition unfun so that you are more likely to buy the boosts from the cashshop and skip them.
Same I hate them too.
1) It's kind of like this......... You hose down your yard with a hose making mud so it's hard to walk. Pay money to remove the mud.
2) It's kind of like this.......You make a friend, your both level 24. The next day your new friend is level 40.
3) It's kind of like this....... You pay for a game, you pay more money and skip over half the game !
In a real world hobby such as say, any sport, the more time you invest the better you get at it. However this dynamic translates perfectly into player skill and knowledge of the game. There is no reason to artificially replicate it because it already exists.
However games DO artificially replicate this already existing dynamic in the form of level grinding and permanent gear progression. Most of them placing gear and levels ABOVE player skill. I don't care how good you are, and how bad they are, you aren't beating someone 20 levels higher than you with twinked out gear on your averagely geared character in your standard MMO.
That is absolutely Play to Win, and has no more justification for existence than Pay to Win. It's just that one is a very old and commonly accepted practice while the other gets people triggered.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
In a real world hobby such as say, any sport, the more time you invest the better you get at it. However this dynamic translates perfectly into player skill and knowledge of the game. There is no reason to artificially replicate it because it already exists.
However games DO artificially replicate this already existing dynamic in the form of level grinding and permanent gear progression. Most of them placing gear and levels ABOVE player skill. I don't care how good you are, and how bad they are, you aren't beating someone 20 levels higher than you with twinked out gear on your averagely geared character in your standard MMO.
That is absolutely Play to Win, and has no more justification for existence than Pay to Win. It's just that one is a very old and commonly accepted practice while the other gets people triggered.
In real world hobbies there is also typically a correlation to monetary investment in your hobby materials and performance. Real world hobbies almost all have a "P2W" factor.
You mean like buying a gaming keyboard and mouse? You could even hire a personal trainer if you really wanted to go that far. Again. No need to replicate it artificially through leveling or pay to win. It already exists.
In a real world hobby such as say, any sport, the more time you invest the better you get at it. However this dynamic translates perfectly into player skill and knowledge of the game. There is no reason to artificially replicate it because it already exists.
However games DO artificially replicate this already existing dynamic in the form of level grinding and permanent gear progression. Most of them placing gear and levels ABOVE player skill. I don't care how good you are, and how bad they are, you aren't beating someone 20 levels higher than you with twinked out gear on your averagely geared character in your standard MMO.
That is absolutely Play to Win, and has no more justification for existence than Pay to Win. It's just that one is a very old and commonly accepted practice while the other gets people triggered.
In real world hobbies there is also typically a correlation to monetary investment in your hobby materials and performance. Real world hobbies almost all have a "P2W" factor.
You mean like buying a gaming keyboard and mouse? You could even hire a personal trainer if you really wanted to go that far. Again. No need to replicate it artificially through leveling or pay to win. It already exists.
No I was referring to other real world hobbies - archery, off-roading/4x4/mudding/4-wheeling, amateur racing, most sports, shooting, knitting, painting, drawing, digital art, photography, and it could go on and on and on. Buy better equipment and perform better or get better results.
Nearly all hobbies have some monetary aspect where paying more is a factor in better results or a smoother experience.
That can apply to computers where people spend a lot of money for a high performance rig and peripherals. It can also apply to specific games. Nothing is replicated. It's a natural way for people to play their hobbies.
When I shot archery people were put into different categories based on how much they spent on their bows. If you shot a recurve you were in a different category than someone with a compound. Someone with a sighted compound was in a different category than someone with an unsighted compound. I believe there were also limits on the length of your stabilizer for different categories.
Point being, usually people with massive non-skill related advantages over the rest of the competition will be separated from them. Because otherwise it isn't fun. And the point of a game is fun.
That is my argument against pay to win AND play to win or "T2W" as the topic refers to it. Neither are good.
In a real world hobby such as say, any sport, the more time you invest the better you get at it. However this dynamic translates perfectly into player skill and knowledge of the game. There is no reason to artificially replicate it because it already exists.
However games DO artificially replicate this already existing dynamic in the form of level grinding and permanent gear progression. Most of them placing gear and levels ABOVE player skill. I don't care how good you are, and how bad they are, you aren't beating someone 20 levels higher than you with twinked out gear on your averagely geared character in your standard MMO.
That is absolutely Play to Win, and has no more justification for existence than Pay to Win. It's just that one is a very old and commonly accepted practice while the other gets people triggered.
In real world hobbies there is also typically a correlation to monetary investment in your hobby materials and performance. Real world hobbies almost all have a "P2W" factor.
You mean like buying a gaming keyboard and mouse? You could even hire a personal trainer if you really wanted to go that far. Again. No need to replicate it artificially through leveling or pay to win. It already exists.
No I was referring to other real world hobbies - archery, off-roading/4x4/mudding/4-wheeling, amateur racing, most sports, shooting, knitting, painting, drawing, digital art, photography, and it could go on and on and on. Buy better equipment and perform better or get better results.
Nearly all hobbies have some monetary aspect where paying more is a factor in better results or a smoother experience.
That can apply to computers where people spend a lot of money for a high performance rig and peripherals. It can also apply to specific games. Nothing is replicated. It's a natural way for people to play their hobbies.
True
But a big difference is, unless the world ends all those hobbies will continue to exist and you can pretty much enjoy your investment in them.
Your investment in an online game can become null and void in an instant. It's as the developer/publisher see's fit.
If the game requires no life to succeed play many of the games where it doesn't.
...or even maybe follow your own advice and stop playing games you cannot afford?
Yet, you validate games that are favouring time investment but games allowing for greater money spending are forbidden?
Stop making excusing as to how spending money on games is bad.
Double standards and hypocrisy.
It's not a double standard because "time spent" is exactly the goal of entertainment: to create things people can spend time enjoying.
Acting as if playing a game and simply buying features within a game are equal is ignoring the fact that games are made as ways to spend time being entertained.
P2W, in this context, is using money to avoid spending time playing parts of the game. Games are made, quite literally, as an entertaining way to pass time. The draw of the P2W cited here is as much about staying ahead of other gamers and showing off, as it is making up for an outright lack of free time.
It doesn't even make sense, economically, that whales simply spend due to a lack of free time. It would be like my buying a $2000 grill with no intention of grilling anything, or only grilling once a year. The benefit wouldn't be worth the cost. More specifically, I'm not buying a month of XP boost if I am going to be without the ability to play a significant amount during that month. It's just not cost-effective. In the same vein, I'm not buying epic mounts and potions galore in an MMORPG I can't even play more than a few hours a week; if I'm buying in-game items, it will be for a game I plan on actually spending time playing. I'd happily bet that the large majority of whales have no more lack of free time than do the majority of free players; the larger portion more than likely use the money to make things easier to complete, to get ahead as quickly as possible, and to show off.
Seeing as how many "boosters" expire time no matter whether or not you're logged in (with some exceptions, such as ESO), this doesn't seem to jive with the idea that folks buy them because they don't have time to play. A booster without experience/gold to boost holds no benefit. +50% of zero is still zero.
With all that said, my definition of P2W is much stricter than the one cited here. So XP boosts and such don't really bother me. Paying for powerful items does, but even that gets muddied with RMT exchanges.
Comments
1) Large Power Gaps
If time spent in game has a direct correlation to your characters power then this is an issue. This is bad game design. Luckily, most games don't follow this rule. The power curve is generally inverse-exponential - large power increases at the start, but as you spend more and more time in a game, you gain less and less power until eventually you stop.
This means that the average power gaps get less and less over time and eventually (usually within a month of hitting endgame) the power gaps completely stop being based on time and become entirely based on player skill (ability to complete the hardest content).
2) Endless character growth
If there is no hard limit to character growth then time spent in game will continuously segregate the community. again, most MMOs don't have this - there is a hard limit to progression, both in terms of skills and gear. Some do go against it, but most conform and have an end.
3) Twitch-based PvP
Any game that relies upon muscle memory to be good will benefit players who can spend all day playing. Shooters are especially guilty of this, but MMOs have started moving into twitch-based gameplay so this is going to become a bigger problem. However, again, there are usually natural physical limits - my arm / hand can only get so good at aiming.
In general, time-to-win and pay-to-win are only issues in situations where players have to compare themselves to one another. This means group content and pvp.
With time being the key to success, you at least know that the person you are playing with has gotten there on their own merits. If they have full raid gear, you at least know they've got the skill to beat that raid. If they've got a high pvp rating, you know they're a good pvper. It is a fair and honest system.
With P2W that is not the case. In PvE, the gear is no longer an indication of player skill, making it harder to form groups and harder to complete content. In PvP, you can no longer make tactical assessments of players based on their gear, removing a fun and important aspect of pvp.
Finally, in a P2W system, you are removing long term goals from the game by handing it to players with a large wallet. This reduces player fun and attachment to their character, thus reducing retention and long term profitability.
So, whilst T2W may be a problem in certain situations, it is at least fair and honest and better (long term) than P2W.
This MOBAfication of MMORPGs with instant or accelerated "end-game" gimmicks is a fairly recent post-WOW phenomenon. From a publisher's point of view, it's easy to understand why they're prodding the developers to do this since MOBAs are many times more popular than old-school MMORPGs and they have a better chance of attracting millions if they cater to them.
But from my perspective that's totally at odds with the "living world" purpose of making an MMORPG in the first place. It's like they're making MMORPGs for people that no longer like them or never did, so they undermine themselves by providing the means to play the game as something else, often to the point of being able to skip the majority of the game they developed. It's like saying "You hate our type of game? No problem, we've got you covered with instant level 100 for a small additional fee."
If some people really don't enjoy "the journey" I honestly don't know why they play them when there are so many other non-journey games out there. I mean... are the end games of MMOs really so much better than the games that are nothing but end-game?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Both of these are very true...
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Is it fair my boss is single and can work a lot more and get farther along in his career/salary? No.
Is it fair that I can't compete in basketball because I'm 5'7" and both of my friends are 6'4"+? No.
Is it fair that I only have one max level character and all my friends have several because they can play more often? No.
Now that we've established those facts, lets move on to the REAL question you were asking...
"Should I be given special treatment because I'm at a disadvantage in comparison to others?"
Want to guess the answer? Again...NO!
You (and I mean the royal 'you' of the whiny entitlement generation) need to pull your heads out of your asses and realize that life has never been fair, isn't fair, and will never be fair. Deal with it. How sad of a human being do you have to be to base your level of enjoyment on what others are doing. If comparing yourself to others in a game bothers you so much, go find something else to do. Games are supposed to be fun.
How many permutations of this same ridiculous question do we have to see every week on MMORPG.com? *groan*
~~ postlarval ~~
When I play chess, I want my opponent to have the same advantages and disadvantages as I do. I don't care for the idea that they could pay to make their king move like a queen. I extend that simple concept to video games as well. I like games where everyone is playing by the same set of rules (especially true for PvP). Introducing power for money or saved time for money cheapens the experience for me. It makes it so that people are playing by a different set of rules based on how much disposable income they make or are willing to spend.
Does it bother me if someone else uses money to save time? Not very much. But it really depends on what benefits you get from saving time. If time equals power at a competitive level, then yes, I have a problem with it. But the only thing I'll do is not play that game. If people want to spend their money on these monetization models that trade real money for power, I'm fine with that. I just don't want to participate in something like that.
It's easy to isolate PvP skill and buying power out of the MMORPG experience... just don't play titles that feature OWPvP and/or P2W
Edit: If one is going to willfully play titles that have all three I agree with you, don't expect fairness.
Skill offers advantages though and in MMOs it should cut off a lot of the time people who instead use persistence need to put into the game.
You can clearly not balance "skill" with "time "and "cash "exactly, no but you can reward good players by lessen the grind for them if they instead perform really hard tasks. Thats all I am saying.
Encourage players to actually learn to play as good as possible instead of just making the most effective way to play just to outlevel and outgear the content. Or worse, just paying loads of cash to get the same result.
P2W and T2W are definitely very different.
Everyone has 24 hours in their day
Not everyone has £1000 a month to spent in a cash shop
So, T2W starts from a position of fairness and becomes more unfair the more time is needed to become dominant.
P2W starts from a position of unfairness and becomes more unfair the more is added to the cash shop.
Both are bad, but P2W is completely avoidable whilst T2W is completely unavoidable (because you do actually need to spend time playing a game in order to "win").
Same I hate them too.
1) It's kind of like this......... You hose down your yard with a hose making mud so it's hard to walk. Pay money to remove the mud.
2) It's kind of like this.......You make a friend, your both level 24. The next day your new friend is level 40.
3) It's kind of like this....... You pay for a game, you pay more money and skip over half the game !
Just playing Devils Advocate
My post history should tell in black and white, what side of the fence I sit on.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Basically ,
you need to play 2h to create item A = you spend $1 to create item A
is fair discussion
But the reality is
You need to play to buy item A from the whale who use $1 to create it .
And we have problem here . Without a whale who spend $1 , there is no item A .
Pity you did not get any of what I said in my previous post because that is what my post was about....
However games DO artificially replicate this already existing dynamic in the form of level grinding and permanent gear progression. Most of them placing gear and levels ABOVE player skill. I don't care how good you are, and how bad they are, you aren't beating someone 20 levels higher than you with twinked out gear on your averagely geared character in your standard MMO.
That is absolutely Play to Win, and has no more justification for existence than Pay to Win. It's just that one is a very old and commonly accepted practice while the other gets people triggered.
I like to play the Devil's Advocate as well. But sometimes I love to play the little devil whispering in the Devil's Ear!
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Point being, usually people with massive non-skill related advantages over the rest of the competition will be separated from them. Because otherwise it isn't fun. And the point of a game is fun.
That is my argument against pay to win AND play to win or "T2W" as the topic refers to it. Neither are good.
But a big difference is, unless the world ends all those hobbies will continue to exist and you can pretty much enjoy your investment in them.
Your investment in an online game can become null and void in an instant. It's as the developer/publisher see's fit.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Acting as if playing a game and simply buying features within a game are equal is ignoring the fact that games are made as ways to spend time being entertained.
P2W, in this context, is using money to avoid spending time playing parts of the game. Games are made, quite literally, as an entertaining way to pass time. The draw of the P2W cited here is as much about staying ahead of other gamers and showing off, as it is making up for an outright lack of free time.
It doesn't even make sense, economically, that whales simply spend due to a lack of free time. It would be like my buying a $2000 grill with no intention of grilling anything, or only grilling once a year. The benefit wouldn't be worth the cost. More specifically, I'm not buying a month of XP boost if I am going to be without the ability to play a significant amount during that month. It's just not cost-effective. In the same vein, I'm not buying epic mounts and potions galore in an MMORPG I can't even play more than a few hours a week; if I'm buying in-game items, it will be for a game I plan on actually spending time playing. I'd happily bet that the large majority of whales have no more lack of free time than do the majority of free players; the larger portion more than likely use the money to make things easier to complete, to get ahead as quickly as possible, and to show off.
Seeing as how many "boosters" expire time no matter whether or not you're logged in (with some exceptions, such as ESO), this doesn't seem to jive with the idea that folks buy them because they don't have time to play. A booster without experience/gold to boost holds no benefit. +50% of zero is still zero.
With all that said, my definition of P2W is much stricter than the one cited here. So XP boosts and such don't really bother me. Paying for powerful items does, but even that gets muddied with RMT exchanges.