Do people actually WANT a hard themepark MMORPG? I don't think so

TheScavenger

As you can see here

http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/456918/should-raid-armor-weapons-trinkets-have-limited-use-in-themeparks#latest

I found people don't want challenge in a themepark MMORPG. They instead want to own everything and never lose their items.

Now look at Wildstar, many MMORPG forum users and Reddit wanted and kept asking for a challenging themepark MMORPG. Wildstar was that, and it failed big. Now granted, I don't know how its doing since it went free to play...but I almost never see it mentioned at all. Instead, I see FFXIV, GW2, WoW talked about the most as far as themeparks go.

And what do they all have in common? They are all rather really easy. You grind for items, and then you keep them for the rest of the game's life. You never lose them, they never wear out in durability, they are all unbreakable. Sure gotta repair them, so? That is cheap, pennies to do.

Now look at a challenging MMORPG called EVE Online. Sure there isn't really durability in items and ships, but if you die, you lose EVERYTHING that is on the ship AND the ship itself. People LOVE the challenge of EVE Online.

Why then, do people not want a challenge in themeparks? I am legit very curious why people want such easy themepark MMOs, and not challenging ones.

Challenge being:

-Hard group content
-Losing items, either through use or in death
-Lack of solo play (but still a possibility, just can't solo any dungeons/raids, but questing is fine solo in my opinion. And crafting can be done solo)
-Huge reliance on crafters (many themepark MMOs crafters aren't nearly as useful as they are in sandbox MMOs. Exceptions being EQ2 (but raid items are better) and ESO (crafting on par with some raid items))
-A long, slow process to level (or skillup)

And I'm sure there are more, but many sandbox MMOs offer a great challenge. Where as, all the successful themeparks are rather easy-mode except for Wildstar, and I never read or hear about that these days.

Now also look at another sort of themepark (sandpark?) MMORPG, Vanguard Saga of Heroes. This was actually my favorite MMORPG as far as themeparks go. It did have problems, but it offered an amazingly challenging world. It was very group oriented. However, it crashed and burned, not nearly enough people liked it. Often my own friends told me it was just too hard for a "themepark" MMORPG and they went back to WoW.

Maybe Vanguard died for other reasons, however if MMO users wanted a challenging themepark/sandpark MMO...would they not instead play what they are actually asking for?

Now look at that thread I created above, sure not too many replies yet. But it actually really saddened me with what I got...no one wants a challenging MMORPG, where its hard group content, and losing items through use or death. It seems like they just want to be overpowered and pwn everything they see.

That aspect of themeparks means, devs can't actually make a challenging themepark. That is why GW2/WoW do so good, is because they are easy.

Where as, when people play a sandbox game, they expect a challenge, losing items, hard content and an overall hard MMORPG (like EVE Online being the best example)

Its very sad no one wants a challenging themepark. Guess if I want a challenge, only sandbox MMOs are my option, and they are rather limited in choice.

At least there is EVE Online...

TheScavenger

Xodic said:

Never played Wild Star. What was challenging about it?

From when I played (I was on the PVE server), it had the hardest raids I've ever done in a themepark MMORPG. And for those on the PVP server, it was brutal as there was quite a lot of death. Now that isn't to say people lost items or anything like I said in the linked thread, but it was a very hard MMORPG.

Not just raids either, it took a LONG time to level up (at least it did for me, though it may have been how I played. I tend to kinda level slow in WoW compared to others, but even then it takes a week to max level in WoW). And PVE content overall was pretty challenging, I really had to rely on groups a lot.

Octagon7711

I believe the hardcore crowd are the most vocal and are willing to participate more during a games development.  Then all the casuals come after launch because they don't really care all that much about development they just want to play.  They discover how hardcore the game is complain and if nothing is changed then they just leave.  Games once would eval you first and go by a cross section from hard to casual gamers to set the difficulty of a game.  Now they ask you to pay them to test which usually attract more hardcore imo.

Theocritus

I was under the impression that most people just want to be entertained and not so much challenged.

Vermillion_Raventhal

I have no numbers on metrics.  But sometimes games like Wildstar fail because they're not good games.  

gervaise1

DMKano said:

Theocritus said:

I was under the impression that most people just want to be entertained and not so much challenged.

Players want to *feel* challenged, but only enough to sweeten the feeling of victory. 

Without any challenge players get bored and leave.

Too much challenge and players leave due to frustration 

Yep. Why face to face games like D&D were and are still popular.

As long as the group are "about the right level" for the dungeon/adventure a (decent) GM can adjust on the fly to fine tune the events. There is an element of randomness there which may do them harm but that is acceptable. If they totally mess up the challenge, don't make use of their abilities etc. they may die but again acceptable. What isn't acceptable is they walk into a chamber and are told they are dead. The reason being that is not a challenge. And nor is it hardcore.

In games challenges have to be achievable. If not there is just no fun.

Sovrath

TheScavenger said:

Now look at Wildstar, many MMORPG forum users and Reddit wanted and kept asking for a challenging themepark MMORPG. Wildstar was that, and it failed big. 

Did Wildstar fail because it was hard or because it wasn't considered a good game? I stopped playing Wildstar at the start because I didn't like it. Had nothing to do with the difficulty of the raids.

frostymug

Maybe it isn't so much that people don't want a challenge, rather that people would rather tilt differently. Or maybe they don't even see the windmills...

Quizzical

People want a fun game to play.  If people say they want feature X, and you give them a game that has feature X but is otherwise terrible, they're not going to like it.  The reason they won't like it is not that they don't actually want feature X.

There are interesting and uninteresting types of challenges.  Third tier danger rooms in Spiral Knights are an interesting type of challenge.

What sort of challenges did Wildstar feature when I played it?  Well:

1)  You must fight mobs while using a wonky control scheme in which a given key can mean turn or strafe depending on exactly how long it has been since the last time you attacked.  And it will switch back and forth on you while you are in combat, without warning and whether you like it or not.

2)  In order to continue the main quest line, you must complete a quest that is bugged to be incompletable.  And a truckload of follow-on quests in that line are unobtainable until you complete it.  Oh, and by the way, the studio is really slow at fixing bugs.

3)  In order to proceed, you must get help from someone of a particular profession.  He has to come to a particular spot on the map to help you, and gains nothing by doing so.  Oh, and the game is sufficiently dead that you'll only meet someone about once per hour, including people not of the profession you need and people who don't respond to chat.

4)  The only way to acquire the quest you need is to stand in a particular spot and type a completely undocumented console command into the chat box.  Then the game will offer you the quest you need.  But only if you were standing in the right spot; if you're off a little, it won't.  And there are no in-game hints on where to stand or that there even are console commands.

Those are all challenges, sure, but they're not interesting challenges.  Rather, when that's the sort of thing that makes a game hard, it's probably a terrible game.  I'd like a challenge, but I also want a game that is good.

Quizzical

TheScavenger said:

Maybe Vanguard died for other reasons, however if MMO users wanted a challenging themepark/sandpark MMO...would they not instead play what they are actually asking for?

Vanguard died because it was a horribly buggy mess that wouldn't run decently on any hardware that existed in the real world until quite some time after launch.  When you have things like that to chase away nearly everyone who tries the game within a couple of years of launch, it's awfully hard to recover.  By the time the game was in a decent state, the game world was basically deserted, so you had a group-heavy game in which it was basically impossible to find groups for anything.  Which will also kill a game.

rodingo

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

I have no numbers on metrics.  But sometimes games like Wildstar fail because they're not good games.  

Yeh I don't think the difficulty in the raids and dungeons are what killled WS.  At least that's not what killed it for me since I never stepped foot into a raid but I did do, and complete (woopy doo!) Stormtalon's Lair.  Other aspects like quest hubs, kill X of Y type quests, and constantly staring at the ground around my character's feet during fights are what killed the game for me.. 

Myria

TheScavenger said:

Now look at a challenging MMORPG called EVE Online. Sure there isn't really durability in items and ships, but if you die, you lose EVERYTHING that is on the ship AND the ship itself. People LOVE the challenge of EVE Online.

Ummm, insurance?

And, honestly, who doesn't have hangers full of ships, mods, ammo, and god knows what else? By necessity and design, items in Eve (and any similar game) are disposable and thus, for the most part, cheap and easily replaceable.

Early on losing a ship is annoying and a fairly major setback, but then the same is true of most games. Get to 10mil SP or so and it's not much of a big deal at all.

And frankly the prevalence of ganking, playing who's got the biggest blob, and other such tactics gives lie to the notion that while Themepark players want it easy (as far as I can tell, they do) sandbox players are somehow out looking for a challenge -- if you consider blowing up Hulks and six-on-one combat a challenge.

Thupli

I dont think grinding for gear = hard.  I think I fall into the category of older gamer with a family now and I dont have time to waste.

I want the challenge of difficult gameplay of, say, the Burning Crusade heroics and raids, but not the massive pre-requisite grinds that bar entry.  

I wouldnt mind some minor upgrades in gear from raids or bgs on the order of 5% better, but huge differences in gear just makes the competition less fun and more about gear grinding again and who has more time.  My favorite times in TBC and Wrath was when everyone had been on the same raid release for a while, or the pvp season was mature and people had much closer levels of gear and were playing hard and smart.  Those were always the best matches.

Octagon7711

Sovrath said:

TheScavenger said:

Now look at Wildstar, many MMORPG forum users and Reddit wanted and kept asking for a challenging themepark MMORPG. Wildstar was that, and it failed big. 

Did Wildstar fail because it was hard or because it wasn't considered a good game? I stopped playing Wildstar at the start because I didn't like it. Had nothing to do with the difficulty of the raids.

I didn't make it out of the first zone and tried different classes.  

Dagon13

Octagon7711 said:

Sovrath said:

TheScavenger said:

Now look at Wildstar, many MMORPG forum users and Reddit wanted and kept asking for a challenging themepark MMORPG. Wildstar was that, and it failed big. 

Did Wildstar fail because it was hard or because it wasn't considered a good game? I stopped playing Wildstar at the start because I didn't like it. Had nothing to do with the difficulty of the raids.

I didn't make it out of the first zone and tried different classes.  

I didn't make it out of beta.  The game reminded me too much of the ADHD neighbor kid who always wore bright color clothing.

Dagon13

Other than the incredibly vague "Hard group content" nothing on your list sounds relevant to me.

I think it's safe to say that this is the source of the problem.  These mass market games are targeting millions of people who all have varying definitions of what a challenge is.  I think DMKano hit the nail on the head.  Unforunately, there's no feasible way to create content that is both challenging for people who can perfect clear impossible NES games and evenly challenging for people who struggle to put abilities on a hotbar.  

flizzer

I've always liked the idea of creating dungeons with players able to adjust difficulty level they are comfortable with.  This way you can have hard Wild Star dungeons or simpler dungeons like people claim are found in WoW.

Albatroes

Lets get one thing straight about Wildstar, the combat and almost everything else in it was buggy and awkward. How the heck were 40 people supposed to do serious raiding with those kind of things? If you look at ANY review of the game before it went through its many changes, those two issues will always come up. Sure, its more playable now, but its too little too late.

TheScavenger

Albatroes said:

Lets get one thing straight about Wildstar, the combat and almost everything else in it was buggy and awkward. How the heck were 40 people supposed to do serious raiding with those kind of things? If you look at ANY review of the game before it went through its many changes, those two issues will always come up. Sure, its more playable now, but its too little too late.

Its not the only challenging themepark/sandpark that has failed though. Vanguard Saga of Heroes did as well. And when I played it, it wasn't buggy, performance was great and the world itself was amazing.

If launch bugs kill MMOs, then no MMO can ever survive because every MMO always launches with issues. FFXIV launched terribly, but it recovered and is now one of the most popular MMOs. Though I don't find it very challenging (it IS at least harder than WoW), but it is a lot of fun. Its probably the only MMORPG I like right now besides EVE Online.

Otherwise, developers see no one joining these challenging themeparks/sandparks and figure that they just aren't worth making if no one actually wants a challenge and group focused atmosphere. Gotta put our money where our mouth is, and prove that we want these MMOs. Sadly with both Wildstar and Vanguard that failed, and just shows most MMO players that play themeparks/sandparks don't actually want to support games like those. With immersive, group focused, challenging worlds.

Also, WoW launched pretty buggy. It wasn't very smooth either (partly because the amount playing)...but it did just fine. I doubt launch issues play a very big part. If they did, FFXIV would be a dead game no longer existing.

d_20

I play WoW when I just want to chill. It's the same reason I played GW2 before HoTs. Just want to play, craft, gather, casual group sometimes. PvP can be a challenge if you want to be good (ranked). It's an option. Raiding in WoW can be a challenge. But that's not why I play. 

ESO is relaxing as well, but same deal. There are some very  good pvpers, so you can find them if you want a challenge. Also, the trials are challenging, but I don't run them. 

I guess I don't like the stress that comes along with challenging group play. It feels like being at work to me. People can get nasty about stuff and it's just not fun to feel that pressure. I guess if I had real life friends who played games, it would be different.

If I want challenging pve, I can load up Dark Souls 3.  Also, there are some mmo pvp games out, but I'm not into those any more. 

So I know why people like easy games. 

Lithuanian

I don't want challenges.
When I come home from work, I need some relaxation. I am becoming lvl.105 Minstrel in Lotro, I do some killings, maybe enter some doable dungeons. Or grind slayer deeds. Or log in alt to grind Turbine points. What I need least is a real-life-level strategy on how to solo entire fortress, full of hard to kill enemies. I want simple approaches, I want some escape from real life.
Note:yes, I do respect those who are up for challenge. Startting with hardcore roleplayers in Lotro (hobbits who travel with no boots and have to rest at night and do not receive aid from other pl;ayers) to EVE admirals.

frostymug

TheScavenger said:

Albatroes said:

Lets get one thing straight about Wildstar, the combat and almost everything else in it was buggy and awkward. How the heck were 40 people supposed to do serious raiding with those kind of things? If you look at ANY review of the game before it went through its many changes, those two issues will always come up. Sure, its more playable now, but its too little too late.

Its not the only challenging themepark/sandpark that has failed though. Vanguard Saga of Heroes did as well. And when I played it, it wasn't buggy, performance was great and the world itself was amazing.

If launch bugs kill MMOs, then no MMO can ever survive because every MMO always launches with issues. FFXIV launched terribly, but it recovered and is now one of the most popular MMOs. Though I don't find it very challenging (it IS at least harder than WoW), but it is a lot of fun. Its probably the only MMORPG I like right now besides EVE Online.

Otherwise, developers see no one joining these challenging themeparks/sandparks and figure that they just aren't worth making if no one actually wants a challenge and group focused atmosphere. Gotta put our money where our mouth is, and prove that we want these MMOs. Sadly with both Wildstar and Vanguard that failed, and just shows most MMO players that play themeparks/sandparks don't actually want to support games like those. With immersive, group focused, challenging worlds.

Also, WoW launched pretty buggy. It wasn't very smooth either (partly because the amount playing)...but it did just fine. I doubt launch issues play a very big part. If they did, FFXIV would be a dead game no longer existing.

There is a reason why the full title is Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn. The original one was so poorly received that they canned the entire thing and started over.

The biggest issues with the launch of WoW were population based. The gameplay itself was relatively bug free.

Vanguard was a turd at launch and for a long time afterwards. By the time it got to where it wasn't (as) buggy, and had decent performance the population had already gone. People trickled in and out, but there wasn't a healthy enough population at any level range for a game that was largely built for grouping.

Basically, the idea you proposed in that other thread was terrible. The people who can clear raids for that gear will just clear them again. If the people you think you are advocating for already have a hard time getting that gear do you think they would even try if they knew it would become useless long before they could get it again? More likely that they just wouldn't bother to begin with. A lot of people played EQ for years and years, yet never progressed past the first difficult step in their epic quest because they knew that likely didn't have the horses to seal the deal.

If you want more hardcore, group centric games and worlds, then why punish the people who excel in groups so that the people who either solo or are dysfunctional groupers can be competitive? Your approach is wrong.

VengeSunsoar

Vg was never great performance. I tried it a dozentimes over the years. It  was better for sure but still stuttered for  up to a minute when crossing chunk lines, flying through chunk lines often causing falls and death, swimming through the ground was  never fixed. Better but definitely not great. 

Loke666

DMKano said:

Players want to *feel* challenged, but only enough to sweeten the feeling of victory. 

Without any challenge players get bored and leave.

Too much challenge and players leave due to frustration 

Indeed, the problem is just that we don't all need the exact amount of challenge depending on how well we learn to play the game. 

Currently most games have challenging raids but very easy open world and group dungeons. The problem with that is that most players really never bother to learn the game as they play the easy content since there hardly is any need for that. Once they start raiding things go hard fast and many people just quit due to it.

That just ain't good enough, MMOs need to be far better on ramping up the difficulty so things slowly get harder as you progress, both in the open world and dungeons, preparing people for the endgame. If you make it slowly but constant I think the players actually will learn to play far better and stay longer in the game.

I also think MMOs should have 2 different serversets, an easy with nerfed drops and a harder with better. That way you can get both super casuals who just want an easy time and more experienced players who want things more difficult. It isn't really that hard to implement even if it adds a bit to the PvE balance. But you would get more players that way (as long as people who want it easy actually admit it).

Haplos

Just finished a run at everquest p99 worked up several characters and even though I knew the content very well, it was fun playing the original version.  It was fun because you fit yourself into the community and have to work together to accomplish goals.  It was fun because your characters fit in and become part of the world.  I've played a ton of games but have had 3 that actually made me feel like part of the game.  UO EQ and a little mud that I played when I first started called Kingdom of Drakkar.  They all advanced to the point that they were no longer the games I started playing, but these held my attention much longer than any others.  I like hard and don't presume to know the formula to make these games draw you in, but these 3 did and they were not alike at all.  Make a world to live in, I'd be there again.  I'm always looking.

deniter

I bought Wildstar because they marketed it as 'hardcore' and 'vanilla wow -like'. How disappointed i was when i realised it was yet another single player game with some group content at the end. I didn't get even the grind part before i quit.

What i want is a themepark mmo so hard a player has to gear up constantly to beat content. When i say a game is too easy, that usually means a game allows me to plow through content no matter what, or rewards me with the required gear as a bonus. I want a game which tells me regularly 'you can't come here yet, go back and train your skills and gear'.

That being said, i agree people don't necessarily want hard mmos, that's not why they play mmos in the first place. What i think they want is a game that feels like a game, not a children's educational software.