A MUD can take as little a single person to create with no money (Seriously, you could do this yourself with a little bit of programming knowledge and an old laptop in a closet to host the server.)... An MMO takes a team of tens/hundreds of programmers, directors, designers, artists, quality assurance personnel, huge datacenters to host the servers, and importantly money, lots of money.
Care to ask why MMO's don't do this again?
PS. Go on sourceforge, and click the games section, you'll find about a million results for MUDs made by a single person/small team created in a couple hours/days, and don't cost a dime. May the source be with you.
You are wrong. The features can be added with very little effort to an existing mmo. You really aren't adding anything you are simply choosing to do it differently. Its pvp rulesets, npc rulesets, faction rulesets. Has very little to do with graphics or making the development take longer. It is lack of imagination on the part of current mmo developers.
At what point did I ever say anything about rulesets? Talking money and time bud, not capability. Are they capable? Sure. But there is a massive difference in what it takes to implement. It's not as simple as just punch a few lines of code in and done. What if that line of code writes to the wrong memory sector and shuts down the operating system? Or causes a loop crash?
A billion things can go wrong when there is a difference between 1000 lines of code (A MUD) and 50 million lines of code (A single player RPG) and billions of lines of code (An MMO)
Time costs money. No sane director or producer would go out of their way to spend that money if they don't have to.
But you were acting like it would take an impossibly long time to do such things. When in fact it wouldn't take any longer then it currently does. The arguments were trying to say they never try these things because it takes too long. Yet they are willing to try a whole bunch of other things that take just as long. So the time factor you presented is null.
I'm coming off a little over exaggerated. Good point. Time I've definitely exaggerated. When talking to the money bags of a company though, the only reason they would ever do anything is when you convince them that it will make them more money while costing less. Implementations to already existing projects, directors and producers are likely going to shoot down. These guys aren't programmers, they're investors, you have to talk to them as you would a child most the time...
One of the faults of the gaming industry, it's still an industry.
Maybe it has more to do with the investors than the developers I don't know. But I have a feeling that investors are only going to back a game that has a tried and true formula (because they are all about numbers over quality), it's one of the issues with mmo's becoming mainstream and potentially making millions of dollars on a monthly basis. Creativity, innovation and originality get stifled by greed.
At its base level an MMO is a 3D graphical UI to a database (Text File). A MUD is a 2D Text UI to a database. Believe it or not, to a programmer the UI elements have nothing(absolutely Nothing) to do with the difference between a MUD and an MMO.
Because the UI is encapsulated inside of both NotInCombatRange and MoveToCombatRange, I can flick a switch and the same code will work for either a MUD or an MMO with no change to the base program. All I have to do is define BaseGame as MUD or MMO and the proper objects and libraries are compiled and linked. And it runs.
This is the most hilarious post to read on a forum that argues day and night about the Trinity, a mechanic that became most problematic as a result of the shift from text to 3D world environments. Holy Dunning-Krugerness, Batman.
"The MUD is 2D, only one data element can occupy a tile at a time, it is either an army or it is a field of grass, not both." - Konfess
. . .
The trinity didn't exist untill mmo's. Sorry but it just didn't happen in muds. There really wasn't a need for it. You are missing a point here. Once the mmo is created its just a matter of setting features. Guilds are formed and destroyed a certain way. Factions ect... Its not that difficult to implement features once the world is created.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
At its base level an MMO is a 3D graphical UI to a database (Text File). A MUD is a 2D Text UI to a database. Believe it or not, to a programmer the UI elements have nothing(absolutely Nothing) to do with the difference between a MUD and an MMO.
Because the UI is encapsulated inside of both NotInCombatRange and MoveToCombatRange, I can flick a switch and the same code will work for either a MUD or an MMO with no change to the base program. All I have to do is define BaseGame as MUD or MMO and the proper objects and libraries are compiled and linked. And it runs.
This is the most hilarious post to read on a forum that argues day and night about the Trinity, a mechanic that became most problematic as a result of the shift from text to 3D world environments. Holy Dunning-Krugerness, Batman.
"The MUD is 2D, only one data element can occupy a tile at a time, it is either an army or it is a field of grass, not both." - Konfess
. . .
The trinity didn't exist untill mmo's. Sorry but it just didn't happen in muds. There really wasn't a need for it. You are missing a point here. Once the mmo is created its just a matter of setting features. Guilds are formed and destroyed a certain way. Factions ect... Its not that difficult to implement features once the world is created.
Just because someone writes an article doesn't make them right. The main role of the cleric in muds was to buff, cast malads, dispels, or dps. The only way they were different from mages was the fact that they could cure malads. Curing malads from a cleric in a fight happened about 5% of the time. Healing from a cleric during a fight happened about 5% of the time. Meanwhile in mmo's the healer is healing 90% of the time. That healing role didn't exist in muds.
At its base level an MMO is a 3D graphical UI to a database (Text File). A MUD is a 2D Text UI to a database. Believe it or not, to a programmer the UI elements have nothing(absolutely Nothing) to do with the difference between a MUD and an MMO.
Because the UI is encapsulated inside of both NotInCombatRange and MoveToCombatRange, I can flick a switch and the same code will work for either a MUD or an MMO with no change to the base program. All I have to do is define BaseGame as MUD or MMO and the proper objects and libraries are compiled and linked. And it runs.
This is the most hilarious post to read on a forum that argues day and night about the Trinity, a mechanic that became most problematic as a result of the shift from text to 3D world environments. Holy Dunning-Krugerness, Batman.
"The MUD is 2D, only one data element can occupy a tile at a time, it is either an army or it is a field of grass, not both." - Konfess
. . .
The trinity didn't exist untill mmo's. Sorry but it just didn't happen in muds. There really wasn't a need for it. You are missing a point here. Once the mmo is created its just a matter of setting features. Guilds are formed and destroyed a certain way. Factions ect... Its not that difficult to implement features once the world is created.
Just because someone writes an article doesn't make them right. The main role of the cleric in muds was to buff, cast malads, dispels, or dps. The only way they were different from mages was the fact that they could cure malads. Curing malads from a cleric in a fight happened about 5% of the time. Healing from a cleric during a fight happened about 5% of the time. Meanwhile in mmo's the healer is healing 90% of the time. That healing role didn't exist in muds.
If the article wasn't written by an industry veteran, an authority on the topic, and creator of some of the first MUDs then you'd have a point.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
At its base level an MMO is a 3D graphical UI to a database (Text File). A MUD is a 2D Text UI to a database. Believe it or not, to a programmer the UI elements have nothing(absolutely Nothing) to do with the difference between a MUD and an MMO.
Because the UI is encapsulated inside of both NotInCombatRange and MoveToCombatRange, I can flick a switch and the same code will work for either a MUD or an MMO with no change to the base program. All I have to do is define BaseGame as MUD or MMO and the proper objects and libraries are compiled and linked. And it runs.
This is the most hilarious post to read on a forum that argues day and night about the Trinity, a mechanic that became most problematic as a result of the shift from text to 3D world environments. Holy Dunning-Krugerness, Batman.
"The MUD is 2D, only one data element can occupy a tile at a time, it is either an army or it is a field of grass, not both." - Konfess
. . .
The trinity didn't exist untill mmo's. Sorry but it just didn't happen in muds. There really wasn't a need for it. You are missing a point here. Once the mmo is created its just a matter of setting features. Guilds are formed and destroyed a certain way. Factions ect... Its not that difficult to implement features once the world is created.
Just because someone writes an article doesn't make them right. The main role of the cleric in muds was to buff, cast malads, dispels, or dps. The only way they were different from mages was the fact that they could cure malads. Curing malads from a cleric in a fight happened about 5% of the time. Healing from a cleric during a fight happened about 5% of the time. Meanwhile in mmo's the healer is healing 90% of the time. That healing role didn't exist in muds.
If the article wasn't written by an industry veteran, an authority on the topic, and creator of some of the first MUDs then you'd have a point.
Please tell me what class in a mmo that only heals 5% of the time is considered a healer? Yet somehow you will consider a class like that in a mud a helaer? And FYI the dude is lying or just not remembering properly. DIKU did not have taunt abilities. And if you actually read the article he doesn't claim the trinity existed in muds. He is saying you could see signs of its infant stages.
I should know considering I spent over 2k hours playing diku muds.
At its base level an MMO is a 3D graphical UI to a database (Text File). A MUD is a 2D Text UI to a database. Believe it or not, to a programmer the UI elements have nothing(absolutely Nothing) to do with the difference between a MUD and an MMO.
Because the UI is encapsulated inside of both NotInCombatRange and MoveToCombatRange, I can flick a switch and the same code will work for either a MUD or an MMO with no change to the base program. All I have to do is define BaseGame as MUD or MMO and the proper objects and libraries are compiled and linked. And it runs.
This is the most hilarious post to read on a forum that argues day and night about the Trinity, a mechanic that became most problematic as a result of the shift from text to 3D world environments. Holy Dunning-Krugerness, Batman.
"The MUD is 2D, only one data element can occupy a tile at a time, it is either an army or it is a field of grass, not both." - Konfess
. . .
The trinity didn't exist untill mmo's. Sorry but it just didn't happen in muds. There really wasn't a need for it. You are missing a point here. Once the mmo is created its just a matter of setting features. Guilds are formed and destroyed a certain way. Factions ect... Its not that difficult to implement features once the world is created.
Just because someone writes an article doesn't make them right. The main role of the cleric in muds was to buff, cast malads, dispels, or dps. The only way they were different from mages was the fact that they could cure malads. Curing malads from a cleric in a fight happened about 5% of the time. Healing from a cleric during a fight happened about 5% of the time. Meanwhile in mmo's the healer is healing 90% of the time. That healing role didn't exist in muds.
If the article wasn't written by an industry veteran, an authority on the topic, and creator of some of the first MUDs then you'd have a point.
Please tell me what class in a mmo that only heals 5% of the time is considered a healer? Yet somehow you will consider a class like that in a mud a helaer? And FYI the dude is lying or just not remembering properly. DIKU did not have taunt abilities. And if you actually read the article he doesn't claim the trinity existed in muds. He is saying you could see signs of its infant stages.
I should know considering I spent over 2k hours playing diku muds.
Quoting because that response needs to be saved and savored,
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
At its base level an MMO is a 3D graphical UI to a database (Text File). A MUD is a 2D Text UI to a database. Believe it or not, to a programmer the UI elements have nothing(absolutely Nothing) to do with the difference between a MUD and an MMO.
Because the UI is encapsulated inside of both NotInCombatRange and MoveToCombatRange, I can flick a switch and the same code will work for either a MUD or an MMO with no change to the base program. All I have to do is define BaseGame as MUD or MMO and the proper objects and libraries are compiled and linked. And it runs.
This is the most hilarious post to read on a forum that argues day and night about the Trinity, a mechanic that became most problematic as a result of the shift from text to 3D world environments. Holy Dunning-Krugerness, Batman.
"The MUD is 2D, only one data element can occupy a tile at a time, it is either an army or it is a field of grass, not both." - Konfess
. . .
The trinity didn't exist untill mmo's. Sorry but it just didn't happen in muds. There really wasn't a need for it. You are missing a point here. Once the mmo is created its just a matter of setting features. Guilds are formed and destroyed a certain way. Factions ect... Its not that difficult to implement features once the world is created.
Just because someone writes an article doesn't make them right. The main role of the cleric in muds was to buff, cast malads, dispels, or dps. The only way they were different from mages was the fact that they could cure malads. Curing malads from a cleric in a fight happened about 5% of the time. Healing from a cleric during a fight happened about 5% of the time. Meanwhile in mmo's the healer is healing 90% of the time. That healing role didn't exist in muds.
If the article wasn't written by an industry veteran, an authority on the topic, and creator of some of the first MUDs then you'd have a point.
Please tell me what class in a mmo that only heals 5% of the time is considered a healer? Yet somehow you will consider a class like that in a mud a helaer? And FYI the dude is lying or just not remembering properly. DIKU did not have taunt abilities. And if you actually read the article he doesn't claim the trinity existed in muds. He is saying you could see signs of its infant stages.
I should know considering I spent over 2k hours playing diku muds.
Quoting because that response needs to be saved and savored,
What exactly is wrong with it? remember you are talking to someone who spent over 2k hours playing diku muds I'll give you a little history lesson too. In DIKU all of the big mobs were soloable. So you didn't have a large group of players trying to kill the big mob and a healer sitting in the back healing the tank. You would summon a mob and use it for a tank against the big mob. There was no taunt abilities in diku mud. The one I ran however had class skill called divert which would divert the attacks to another person in the room. Another diku I played had the ability to do this as well. But this was a modification not the original diku code. The clerics were not considered healers by any means. They didn't have a healing role. Thats just how it was.
At its base level an MMO is a 3D graphical UI to a database (Text File). A MUD is a 2D Text UI to a database. Believe it or not, to a programmer the UI elements have nothing(absolutely Nothing) to do with the difference between a MUD and an MMO.
Because the UI is encapsulated inside of both NotInCombatRange and MoveToCombatRange, I can flick a switch and the same code will work for either a MUD or an MMO with no change to the base program. All I have to do is define BaseGame as MUD or MMO and the proper objects and libraries are compiled and linked. And it runs.
This is the most hilarious post to read on a forum that argues day and night about the Trinity, a mechanic that became most problematic as a result of the shift from text to 3D world environments. Holy Dunning-Krugerness, Batman.
"The MUD is 2D, only one data element can occupy a tile at a time, it is either an army or it is a field of grass, not both." - Konfess
. . .
The trinity didn't exist untill mmo's. Sorry but it just didn't happen in muds. There really wasn't a need for it. You are missing a point here. Once the mmo is created its just a matter of setting features. Guilds are formed and destroyed a certain way. Factions ect... Its not that difficult to implement features once the world is created.
Just because someone writes an article doesn't make them right. The main role of the cleric in muds was to buff, cast malads, dispels, or dps. The only way they were different from mages was the fact that they could cure malads. Curing malads from a cleric in a fight happened about 5% of the time. Healing from a cleric during a fight happened about 5% of the time. Meanwhile in mmo's the healer is healing 90% of the time. That healing role didn't exist in muds.
If the article wasn't written by an industry veteran, an authority on the topic, and creator of some of the first MUDs then you'd have a point.
Please tell me what class in a mmo that only heals 5% of the time is considered a healer? Yet somehow you will consider a class like that in a mud a helaer? And FYI the dude is lying or just not remembering properly. DIKU did not have taunt abilities. And if you actually read the article he doesn't claim the trinity existed in muds. He is saying you could see signs of its infant stages.
I should know considering I spent over 2k hours playing diku muds.
The trouble I am having with this argument is that you are basing this all on how a player plays, not on the characters in the game. A "Healer" to me is a character that has access to many abilities to heal in combat. That is all. If my Cleric in EQ (famous for class roles) engaged in melee combat 95% of the time, does that mean Clerics are not healers in EQ?
The same goes with the other "roles": Tank; Range; Controller. Just because players may play the class "differently", or neglect the skills/abilities they have access to, that does not negate what the role was built for.
If a class has access to "healing abilities", then I would say they're healers, no matter how they are played. Did that make sense?
At its base level an MMO is a 3D graphical UI to a database (Text File). A MUD is a 2D Text UI to a database. Believe it or not, to a programmer the UI elements have nothing(absolutely Nothing) to do with the difference between a MUD and an MMO.
Because the UI is encapsulated inside of both NotInCombatRange and MoveToCombatRange, I can flick a switch and the same code will work for either a MUD or an MMO with no change to the base program. All I have to do is define BaseGame as MUD or MMO and the proper objects and libraries are compiled and linked. And it runs.
This is the most hilarious post to read on a forum that argues day and night about the Trinity, a mechanic that became most problematic as a result of the shift from text to 3D world environments. Holy Dunning-Krugerness, Batman.
"The MUD is 2D, only one data element can occupy a tile at a time, it is either an army or it is a field of grass, not both." - Konfess
. . .
The trinity didn't exist untill mmo's. Sorry but it just didn't happen in muds. There really wasn't a need for it. You are missing a point here. Once the mmo is created its just a matter of setting features. Guilds are formed and destroyed a certain way. Factions ect... Its not that difficult to implement features once the world is created.
Just because someone writes an article doesn't make them right. The main role of the cleric in muds was to buff, cast malads, dispels, or dps. The only way they were different from mages was the fact that they could cure malads. Curing malads from a cleric in a fight happened about 5% of the time. Healing from a cleric during a fight happened about 5% of the time. Meanwhile in mmo's the healer is healing 90% of the time. That healing role didn't exist in muds.
If the article wasn't written by an industry veteran, an authority on the topic, and creator of some of the first MUDs then you'd have a point.
Please tell me what class in a mmo that only heals 5% of the time is considered a healer? Yet somehow you will consider a class like that in a mud a helaer? And FYI the dude is lying or just not remembering properly. DIKU did not have taunt abilities. And if you actually read the article he doesn't claim the trinity existed in muds. He is saying you could see signs of its infant stages.
I should know considering I spent over 2k hours playing diku muds.
The trouble I am having with this argument is that you are basing this all on how a player plays, not on the characters in the game. A "Healer" to me is a character that has access to many abilities to heal in combat. That is all. If my Cleric in EQ (famous for class roles) engaged in melee combat 95% of the time, does that mean Clerics are not healers in EQ?
The same goes with the other "roles": Tank; Range; Controller. Just because players may play the class "differently", or neglect the skills/abilities they have access to, that does not negate what the role was built for.
If a class has access to "healing abilities", then I would say they're healers, no matter how they are played. Did that make sense?
So the paladin in WOW is considered a healer? The warrior in GW2 is considered a healer? The discussion was about the trinity which involves 3 specific roles that are necessary for group content or pvp. Healing is a role that you must have or you end up dying to any group that has a healer. Its based on how a game makes them necessary and how usefull they are. You can try to heal with a paladin in WOW but you will ultimately end up with a bunch of peed off people because the healing role is necessary and the Paladin just cannot do it. Just as in muds the cleric could just spend all his mana healing and the entire group would be peed off because he wasted their time.
I dont know where this revisionist history is coming from, but the trinity has been around since PnP. A party always wanted a fighter type. A healer, and if there were only three players, it was a toss up btwn a trief and mage.
Anyone remember the arcade gauntlet? "Warrior needs food" always wanted a warrior to take damage while elf and mage did distance damage. In any game, you try to maximize ncessary skills whether you have classes or not. Having people focused in different areas makes sense.
I dont know where this revisionist history is coming from, but the trinity has been around since PnP. A party always wanted a fighter type. A healer, and if there were only three players, it was a toss up btwn a trief and mage.
Anyone remember the arcade gauntlet? "Warrior needs food" always wanted a warrior to take damage while elf and mage did distance damage. In any game, you try to maximize ncessary skills whether you have classes or not. Having people focused in different areas makes sense.
The trinity is 3 roles. Healer, Tank, DPS. Where does the healer come from if not to heal? The healers primary role is to heal and that did not really exist before mmo's. Clerics in D&D were able to heal but their primary role wasn't healing. So you can see signs of the trinity but it doesn't really exist untill mmo's because the clerics weren't set in a healing role. The tank and healing role didn't exist in stock diku muds. The tank role existed in d&d but only under certain circumstances. Which is why people complain about games like GW2 because the healing and tank roles aren't primary roles but more of a hybrid.
I dont know where this revisionist history is coming from, but the trinity has been around since PnP. A party always wanted a fighter type. A healer, and if there were only three players, it was a toss up btwn a trief and mage.
Anyone remember the arcade gauntlet? "Warrior needs food" always wanted a warrior to take damage while elf and mage did distance damage. In any game, you try to maximize ncessary skills whether you have classes or not. Having people focused in different areas makes sense.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
The trouble I am having with this argument is that you are basing this all on how a player plays, not on the characters in the game. A "Healer" to me is a character that has access to many abilities to heal in combat. That is all. If my Cleric in EQ (famous for class roles) engaged in melee combat 95% of the time, does that mean Clerics are not healers in EQ?
The same goes with the other "roles": Tank; Range; Controller. Just because players may play the class "differently", or neglect the skills/abilities they have access to, that does not negate what the role was built for.
If a class has access to "healing abilities", then I would say they're healers, no matter how they are played. Did that make sense?
So the paladin in WOW is considered a healer? The warrior in GW2 is considered a healer? The discussion was about the trinity which involves 3 specific roles that are necessary for group content or pvp. Healing is a role that you must have or you end up dying to any group that has a healer. Its based on how a game makes them necessary and how usefull they are. You can try to heal with a paladin in WOW but you will ultimately end up with a bunch of peed off people because the healing role is necessary and the Paladin just cannot do it. Just as in muds the cleric could just spend all his mana healing and the entire group would be peed off because he wasted their time.
Ah... Necessary. That is the keyword here. OK. I'm on the same page again.
He can't be wrong. He knows so much about MUDs, It's fantastic. He's got 2,000 hours in MUDs. No one loves MUDs more than him. He's had such great - let me tell you - you listen to him, you're going to have so much truth about MUDs, you are going to get sick of MUD truth. He's just got that much knowledge about MUDs. The best MUD knowledge. We're talking Big League knowledge. Big League like you wouldn't believe.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
He can't be wrong. He knows so much about MUDs, It's fantastic. He's got 2,000 hours in MUDs. No one loves MUDs more than him. He's had such great - let me tell you - you listen to him, you're going to have so much truth about MUDs, you are going to get sick of MUD truth. He's just got that much knowledge about MUDs. The best MUD knowledge. We're talking Big League knowledge. Big League like you wouldn't believe.
Do not feel intimidated by my superior intellect. My rugged good looks and the fact that chicks dig me. I'm down to earth.
EmpireMUD's a MUD (text-based predecessor to MMO) based around founding and conquering an empire. It doesn't have a huge amount of players (because it's a MUD) but the feature set is very solid and it's pretty fun to play.
Seriously, it's crazy how a single lone developer can make a huge empire building MUD in his spare time but MMO companies can't put together that isn't a pathetic rehash of decade old mechanics.
Is it poor project management, lack of originality or just budget constraints? Why can't MMOs do anything along these lines?
Because Books can do stuff that cant be done in Movies without looking choppy and just plain old shitty.
EmpireMUD's a MUD (text-based predecessor to MMO) based around founding and conquering an empire. It doesn't have a huge amount of players (because it's a MUD) but the feature set is very solid and it's pretty fun to play.
Seriously, it's crazy how a single lone developer can make a huge empire building MUD in his spare time but MMO companies can't put together that isn't a pathetic rehash of decade old mechanics.
Is it poor project management, lack of originality or just budget constraints? Why can't MMOs do anything along these lines?
Because Books can do stuff that cant be done in Movies without looking choppy and just plain old shitty.
Tech gap dude.
That's actually a really good comparison. Nice one, MMOExposed.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I dont know where this revisionist history is coming from, but the trinity has been around since PnP. A party always wanted a fighter type. A healer, and if there were only three players, it was a toss up btwn a trief and mage.
Anyone remember the arcade gauntlet? "Warrior needs food" always wanted a warrior to take damage while elf and mage did distance damage. In any game, you try to maximize ncessary skills whether you have classes or not. Having people focused in different areas makes sense.
Filmoret can't imagine being wrong on this.
Lets get some more perspective here. I'm sure we agree that the trinity is based upon primary roles of character classes. I've already shown in diku the tank role and healer role didn't exist. I mean how can you tank if you cannot draw aggro? Now lets look at D&D second edition. Because third edition was during the time of mmo's and the beginning of the trinity. You take a lvl 11 cleric with 18 wisdom had the ability to cast 24 spells per day. They could cast 1 heal spell that would fully restore health to 1 character. 2 cure critical and 4 cure serious wounds spells. And that is if you decided to ignore the fact that the spells could harm instead. And you decided to ignore all the other spells available like raise dead, cure poison, flamestrike. Sorry but D&D second edition didn't really give clerics the ability to heal very well which is why their roles were not primarily healers. They also did not give the warriors the ability to taunt or draw aggro away from the mage or clerics.
There is nothing a 3D game can't do that a 2D or MUD (imho, there is a difference, because *the* MUD is text based, no graphics at all, not even stick figures) can, it's only a question of how much effort it takes to do so.
The problem is that almost all time and money goes into graphics, and almost all of that goes into pixel count. Shift money to animations (like, digging, or blocking, or trinking or sitting or..) and you can have all these features. As there is no money left to animate people sitting down, it's not done. For most people this isn't and issue, thats why nobody does it.
But take a game like Ultima Online, which at least on private servers was often a sandbox. Some had you start with nothing at all. No weapon, no armor, no quests, no directions, nothing. In the middle of a giant forest. And depending on rules, you could build everywhere. While GMs had to place it usually, there was nothing from the technical side that prevented it. And it had dozens of skills that you could all learn. At the same time. It just took ages to do so. It also had an extensive crafting system and a open world.
Now combine this with Minecraft or other games with destructable environemt and the ability to build everything. And before you say "Minecraft is different because it's block-based" - there's Red Faction, which had destructable environment in 3D since 2001.
There is no technical limitation that prevents people from combining all these things, it's just that each system takes a lot of time, and it's extremely hard to combine open world PVP and extensive crafting, or destructable environment and open world housing. At least if you want to make money afterwards..
MMOs are hard enough to do (and to make money from) anyways, so maybe start with another game type first. Maybe a single player game first, or "traditional" multiplayer, with either player hosted servers or like most shooters, but not a central server like in an MMO.
Once both developers and players are more familar with this type of game, small-scale MMOs could be done, and only later "AAA" MMOs.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
Lets get some more perspective here. I'm sure we agree that the trinity is based upon primary roles of character classes. I've already shown in diku the tank role and healer role didn't exist. I mean how can you tank if you cannot draw aggro?
So, let's see if you can imagine being wrong on this. Let's get statements from people that made these games:
"Tactics were centered around controlling which target the mob was attacking, and using special state-affecting attacks that did things like trigger periods of indefensibility (stun), periods of damage multipliers, etc, using stances." - Raph Koster, What is a Diku?
That article also points out that healer was one of the roles. When it comes to the PvE-centric abomination called the tank, another MUD developer explains that one:
"The solution, which was popularised (and possibly invented) in DikuMUD, was to have taunting commands act to cause the opponent to attack one character in preference to others. Threat-management became a substitute for access-containment. This worked well enough under the circumstances, and added a lot to the gameplay especially for boss fights, but it was a bit of a hack. Nevertheless, so it was that the tank was born (although the term "tank" back then still referred to the kind of over-powered character you could get in classless systems who could take damage, heal damage and deal damage all at the same time).
"I've already shown in diku the tank role and healer role didn't exist. I mean how can you tank if you cannot draw aggro? " - filmoret
The tank did exist in MUDs. Healers existed in MUDs. Taunt came from MUDs. The trinity came from MUDs.
Now, you can either stop for a moment and take a critical look at what has been presented here, or you can double down on your current stance. The latter proves waynejr2 correct.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Lets get some more perspective here. I'm sure we agree that the trinity is based upon primary roles of character classes. I've already shown in diku the tank role and healer role didn't exist. I mean how can you tank if you cannot draw aggro?
So, let's see if you can imagine being wrong on this. Let's get statements from people that made these games:
"Tactics were centered around controlling which target the mob was attacking, and using special state-affecting attacks that did things like trigger periods of indefensibility (stun), periods of damage multipliers, etc, using stances." - Raph Koster, What is a Diku?
That article also points out that healer was one of the roles. When it comes to the PvE-centric abomination called the tank, another MUD developer explains that one:
"The solution, which was popularised (and possibly invented) in DikuMUD, was to have taunting commands act to cause the opponent to attack one character in preference to others. Threat-management became a substitute for access-containment. This worked well enough under the circumstances, and added a lot to the gameplay especially for boss fights, but it was a bit of a hack. Nevertheless, so it was that the tank was born (although the term "tank" back then still referred to the kind of over-powered character you could get in classless systems who could take damage, heal damage and deal damage all at the same time).
"I've already shown in diku the tank role and healer role didn't exist. I mean how can you tank if you cannot draw aggro? " - filmoret
The tank did exist in MUDs. Healers existed in MUDs. Taunt came from MUDs. The trinity came from MUDs.
Now, you can either stop for a moment and take a critical look at what has been presented here, or you can double down on your current stance. The latter proves waynejr2 correct.
You missed the (and possibly invented). He wasn't sure. I am sure and if I could find the diku source code I would be happy to prove it but its not easy to find at this point in time. As for the stance thing in the first paragraph. The stance thing as you misunderstood does not mean what you think it does. A player could take an offensive stance and get an extra attack during combat. They could also take defensive stances. It did not promote aggro or cause mobs to attack. Every class could take a stance during combat. Stances did NOT come in DIKU but in some of the later heavily modded versions. The "rescue" ability which came later is the closest thing we have to tanks in early muds protecting people from attackers. But when you rescued a player it would only take 1 attacker away and not all of them. I honestly believe these people you are listening to are thinking of the modded versions of diku which had an unlimited amount of changes because there was litterally thousands of them and they were all modded.
Lets get some more perspective here. I'm sure we agree that the trinity is based upon primary roles of character classes. I've already shown in diku the tank role and healer role didn't exist. I mean how can you tank if you cannot draw aggro?
So, let's see if you can imagine being wrong on this. Let's get statements from people that made these games:
"Tactics were centered around controlling which target the mob was attacking, and using special state-affecting attacks that did things like trigger periods of indefensibility (stun), periods of damage multipliers, etc, using stances." - Raph Koster, What is a Diku?
That article also points out that healer was one of the roles. When it comes to the PvE-centric abomination called the tank, another MUD developer explains that one:
"The solution, which was popularised (and possibly invented) in DikuMUD, was to have taunting commands act to cause the opponent to attack one character in preference to others. Threat-management became a substitute for access-containment. This worked well enough under the circumstances, and added a lot to the gameplay especially for boss fights, but it was a bit of a hack. Nevertheless, so it was that the tank was born (although the term "tank" back then still referred to the kind of over-powered character you could get in classless systems who could take damage, heal damage and deal damage all at the same time).
"I've already shown in diku the tank role and healer role didn't exist. I mean how can you tank if you cannot draw aggro? " - filmoret
The tank did exist in MUDs. Healers existed in MUDs. Taunt came from MUDs. The trinity came from MUDs.
Now, you can either stop for a moment and take a critical look at what has been presented here, or you can double down on your current stance. The latter proves waynejr2 correct.
You missed the (and possibly invented). He wasn't sure.
He wasn't sure because it was in other MUDs as well.
" I honestly believe these people you are listening to are thinking of..."
I honestly believe waynejr2 was frighteningly correct.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Lets get some more perspective here. I'm sure we agree that the trinity is based upon primary roles of character classes. I've already shown in diku the tank role and healer role didn't exist. I mean how can you tank if you cannot draw aggro?
So, let's see if you can imagine being wrong on this. Let's get statements from people that made these games:
"Tactics were centered around controlling which target the mob was attacking, and using special state-affecting attacks that did things like trigger periods of indefensibility (stun), periods of damage multipliers, etc, using stances." - Raph Koster, What is a Diku?
That article also points out that healer was one of the roles. When it comes to the PvE-centric abomination called the tank, another MUD developer explains that one:
"The solution, which was popularised (and possibly invented) in DikuMUD, was to have taunting commands act to cause the opponent to attack one character in preference to others. Threat-management became a substitute for access-containment. This worked well enough under the circumstances, and added a lot to the gameplay especially for boss fights, but it was a bit of a hack. Nevertheless, so it was that the tank was born (although the term "tank" back then still referred to the kind of over-powered character you could get in classless systems who could take damage, heal damage and deal damage all at the same time).
"I've already shown in diku the tank role and healer role didn't exist. I mean how can you tank if you cannot draw aggro? " - filmoret
The tank did exist in MUDs. Healers existed in MUDs. Taunt came from MUDs. The trinity came from MUDs.
Now, you can either stop for a moment and take a critical look at what has been presented here, or you can double down on your current stance. The latter proves waynejr2 correct.
You missed the (and possibly invented). He wasn't sure.
He wasn't sure because it was in other MUDs as well.
" I honestly believe these people you are listening to are thinking of..."
I honestly believe waynejr2 was frighteningly correct.
Ok now I see why you are confused. DIKU is the base programs that most muds are based from. Like I said several times muds are modded versions of DIKU. DIKU did not do the things that you are thinking, it was the modded versions. There are at least 20k modded versions of DIKU. In the modded versions just about everything was done that we have seen in mmo's today. This is where the authors are kind of confusing because they are sometimes using the word DIKU to mean the base game and other times they are using it to mean all the modded versions. DIKU did not have the ability to rescue other players, taunt enemies, or take an offensive stance. This came later with the modded versions. Yes there is probably a mud out there where you can clearly see the trinity. And this probably happened during the time mmo's came out. But 99% of them the cleric is not a healing role.
You would be hard pressed to find a mud that had the trinity and predated mmo's.
Comments
One of the faults of the gaming industry, it's still an industry.
How many times have I tried to correct you on this over the years? read this and stop spreading wrong information.. http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I should know considering I spent over 2k hours playing diku muds.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
The same goes with the other "roles": Tank; Range; Controller. Just because players may play the class "differently", or neglect the skills/abilities they have access to, that does not negate what the role was built for.
If a class has access to "healing abilities", then I would say they're healers, no matter how they are played. Did that make sense?
VG
Anyone remember the arcade gauntlet? "Warrior needs food" always wanted a warrior to take damage while elf and mage did distance damage. In any game, you try to maximize ncessary skills whether you have classes or not. Having people focused in different areas makes sense.
I self identify as a monkey.
Filmoret can't imagine being wrong on this.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
VG
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Tech gap dude.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
The problem is that almost all time and money goes into graphics, and almost all of that goes into pixel count. Shift money to animations (like, digging, or blocking, or trinking or sitting or..) and you can have all these features. As there is no money left to animate people sitting down, it's not done. For most people this isn't and issue, thats why nobody does it.
But take a game like Ultima Online, which at least on private servers was often a sandbox. Some had you start with nothing at all. No weapon, no armor, no quests, no directions, nothing. In the middle of a giant forest. And depending on rules, you could build everywhere. While GMs had to place it usually, there was nothing from the technical side that prevented it. And it had dozens of skills that you could all learn. At the same time. It just took ages to do so. It also had an extensive crafting system and a open world.
Now combine this with Minecraft or other games with destructable environemt and the ability to build everything. And before you say "Minecraft is different because it's block-based" - there's Red Faction, which had destructable environment in 3D since 2001.
There is no technical limitation that prevents people from combining all these things, it's just that each system takes a lot of time, and it's extremely hard to combine open world PVP and extensive crafting, or destructable environment and open world housing. At least if you want to make money afterwards..
MMOs are hard enough to do (and to make money from) anyways, so maybe start with another game type first. Maybe a single player game first, or "traditional" multiplayer, with either player hosted servers or like most shooters, but not a central server like in an MMO.
Once both developers and players are more familar with this type of game, small-scale MMOs could be done, and only later "AAA" MMOs.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
So, let's see if you can imagine being wrong on this. Let's get statements from people that made these games:
"Tactics were centered around controlling which target the mob was attacking, and using special state-affecting attacks that did things like trigger periods of indefensibility (stun), periods of damage multipliers, etc, using stances." - Raph Koster, What is a Diku?
That article also points out that healer was one of the roles. When it comes to the PvE-centric abomination called the tank, another MUD developer explains that one:
"The solution, which was popularised (and possibly invented) in DikuMUD, was to have taunting commands act to cause the opponent to attack one character in preference to others. Threat-management became a substitute for access-containment. This worked well enough under the circumstances, and added a lot to the gameplay especially for boss fights, but it was a bit of a hack. Nevertheless, so it was that the tank was born (although the term "tank" back then still referred to the kind of over-powered character you could get in classless systems who could take damage, heal damage and deal damage all at the same time).
With the tank came the trinity." - Richard Bartle, The Evolution of the Trinity
So let's revisit just the last post you made:
"I've already shown in diku the tank role and healer role didn't exist. I mean how can you tank if you cannot draw aggro? " - filmoret
The tank did exist in MUDs.
Healers existed in MUDs.
Taunt came from MUDs.
The trinity came from MUDs.
Now, you can either stop for a moment and take a critical look at what has been presented here, or you can double down on your current stance. The latter proves waynejr2 correct.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
" I honestly believe these people you are listening to are thinking of..."
I honestly believe waynejr2 was frighteningly correct.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
You would be hard pressed to find a mud that had the trinity and predated mmo's.