There are, literally, zero subscription-based games other than MMORPGs that I've heard of, let alone handfuls of them that would make up $3 billion in revenues.
That's because you are apparently incapable of reading. As I've said multiple times in this topic: Mech Warrior Online
What would you call those premium time packages? I don't play many online games that aren't an MMO or a Steam purchase but if there's one, there are probably others. It actually seems to be a fairly popular model in phone games I've tried so I don't see why more PC games wouldn't use it. Also we still don't know how they classify Buy to Play games. If those are Pay 2 Play then you have MOST non-MMO games right there. Do they consider it P2P if you can get permanent VIP status through cash shop purchases? Boom. There is SMITE as P2P.
You can say I'm stretching, but you said I was stretching when I said we can't say for sure if they consider Freemium games P2P or not and look who was right on that one.
I think it depend how those research categorize each game.
f2p games might have an effect on decrease of subscription mmorpg. It says right on the page which shows the subscription mmorpg trend.
I think some of those site just categorize game the way they do because it is easier. Because some games change model, for example old republic. Several games used to be p2p in all regions but become f2p/p2p mixed depend on region, for example Lineage, Tera, Aion.
West fantasy online actually use a time model. About 18$ for 150 hours. Wow china also use pay by play time.
I don't think it should be surprise many subscription games have decreased population because those games are really really old. I'm not sure how many people play the same mmorpg for more than 10 years. Judging by most people on this site, I guess not many.
Don't get me wrong, there are some. However, everyone is making MMOs now and days and the genre is saturated with a ton of no name indie projects (Although I like them). Offline games have a more robust library compared to MMO players; with bigger titles as-well.
What would really shake up and rejuvenate the mmo world would be if one of these big name franchises dipped their feet in the MMO universe.
-Street fighter
-Mass effect
-Dragon Age
-Soul Calibur
-Mega Man
-Mario
-Sonic the Hedgehog
-Pokemon
-Resident Evil
-Assassin's Creed
-Halo
-Perfect Dark
-Metal gear
-Marvel MMO
-Metroid
-Castlevania
I can go on; but the biggest franchises are not MMOs. Imo, there lies the problem. I don't think WoW is strong enough to carry the MMO flag. DCUO had a chance, but blew it with awful development and superhero mmos were always a niche sub-genre which does not appeal to everyone.
The games listed above will be enough to improve MMO health.
Sometimes a big name is a cure all. A Street fighter MMO would surpass WoW; imo every game I listed will, with the exception of Perfect Dark and maybe Assassins Creed because of Unity. I found out about Warcraft through the MMO, I did not know any other games in the series existed.
The games I listed have a strong following, which would get the younger and older gamers into mmos seeing their childhood favorites revived Online. They are also highly profitable
Folks are not looking for this though, they are looking for this...
Presidential candidates do not bring any local Joes whom works in their garage to their support them, but known names because they can sell it. The MMO genre needs more known names, big names.
(Maybe some of the titles listed are MMOs, feel free to correct me, but I am unaware although I know some where ind development).
Don't get me wrong, there are some. However, everyone is making MMOs now and days and the genre is saturated with a ton of no name indie projects (Although I like them).
here is the problem I have.
If those indie games are better which they are if those indie games are making money which they are if those indie games are exploding in popularity which they are
then its time to re-calibrate your frame instead of wishing that traditional style MMO AAA projects that we all actually dont even like in the first place would then have a resurgence.
No, instead its better to embrace the change (because it appears to actually be good) and then create a new norm.
its time to stop trying to fit a square peg into a hole that has now changed in shape
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
The markets flooded so players are stretched thin. Plus a lot of games that were single player are adding co-op and mmo functionality in order to make profits from micro-transactions.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think you have to make some allowances for the fact that a lot of people dont have PC's anymore. 10 years ago all kinds of people could jump online and give games like EQ2 and WoW a try. These days the only people at home with PC's that can handle new MMO's are gamers. I dont think we will ever really see a return to the past popularity of MMO's.. at least not the traditional type.
Don't get me wrong, there are some. However, everyone is making MMOs now and days and the genre is saturated with a ton of no name indie projects (Although I like them).
here is the problem I have.
If those indie games are better which they are if those indie games are making money which they are if those indie games are exploding in popularity which they are
then its time to re-calibrate your frame instead of wishing that traditional style MMO AAA projects that we all actually dont even like in the first place would then have a resurgence.
No, instead its better to embrace the change (because it appears to actually be good) and then create a new norm.
its time to stop trying to fit a square peg into a hole that has now changed in shape
Couple problems here. Define "We," take a look at the most profitable franchises over time.
Secondly, Indie pales in comparison to the likes of Mario or Street fighter. Whom would you want to use as a brand to get noticed, one of those games from the indie list, or Sonic, Mario, Zelda?
Health, in terms of MMOs or games in general refer to profitability and sustainability, these franchises has stood the test of time. Some of those indie projects may never make it out of alpha/early access; Ark is a prime example.
Ark is the "it" indie project atm, but I believe Sony would not commit to Ark as it was. Indie and EA have a bad rep, because some never make it out; or devs take the dough and jet.
Everything you mentioned is subjective.
"If those indie games are better which they are if those indie games are making money which they are if those indie games are exploding in popularity which they are"
I merely listed the most popular games base upon profitability over time; having a AAA brand in the MMO world can only help it.
Exploding in popularity among whom? Not the casuals. This is the audience I am targeting because they make up the majority of the gaming world. Not every gamer owns a high end PC, I would wager most do not. There is a world beyond mmos and these gamers need to be brought in. What better way than introducing a popular franchise.
1) The growth of the gaming community from the beginning of the MMO's life to now and they don't know how to parse that data
-OR-
2) They have no clue how bad the market is now compared to the cause of the growth of the market
The original MMORPGs all had some key elements that current MMOs just don't have (and by current I really mean those created within the past 10 years):
- Story - Character Development - Content (as in things to do... as in not the same 3 tasks repeated over 50 zones) - Community Interaction (among themselves.. and not just PEOPLE but an actual community) - Dev/Company to Community Interaction (remember GM events?) - Customer Support (real CS... not shady CS with a million restrictions) - Immersion (not possible without the other elements listed above...)
The problem here is that it takes a highly creative team with highly creative minds to not just create this but to evolve all of this. There are a few good looking projects out there but the MOMENT they refuse to talk about something I can promise you they KNOW that what they are creating will not satisfy you.
Devs even try to blame it on gamers but that's not even remotely fair. I mean I played Skyrim and Borderlands 2 for more than a thousand hours a piece... ONE OF THOSE IS A SINGLE PLAYER GAME! There are players who have invested ten TIMES more game time than that!
Now I'll say this: It is partially our fault. I know, I know "HOW DARE YOU" but hear me out, yeah?
We, as gamers, have been ridiculed and beaten on in our real world communities. If you're 30+ in age you probably had to hide that you were a gamer (hell I was a gamer at home and a gangster when I was out with my boys... I couldn't even BEGIN talking about how much I loved Final Fantasy and Zelda). Psychologically speaking - we've no confidence and no faith in what we are because those of us that grew up getting beat up for it have become so jaded that we bash on the young ones that come in and enjoy a different type of game from us. We've kind of become a$$holes, ourselves.
So when developers come along and sell things like "holy trinity" we say "Yeah! That makes sense!" EVEN THOUGH WE KNOW IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE AT ALL! I mean... how many times have you played D&D and you thought "CC? We don't need no stinking CC or buffs!" NEVER! Not once. I mean... when we try our hand at power builds or some craziness, sure, lol, but most of us always try to make sure we've got someone who can heal, tank, deal damage, debuff mobs, and buff us. That's five roles, homies... so why do we let them lie to us?
Developers have become completely relaxed. WE have become a RESOURCE and not a consumer. We are quite literally the epitome of what happens when the consumer lets the producer take control over a market they otherwise have no power in. HELLO ECONOMICS! Supply and demand tell us that they've got near infinite supply and we've got what is now 120 million gamers that they can STILL over supply. We should have control but we don't.
So the only issue now is that the products being supplied just flat out suck. I mean they SUCK.
But cut the "THE WORLD IS GOING TO END" nonsense because this happened once before and guess who saved it: Nintendo.
Mario, specifically, virtually pulled the gaming industry out of the dirt with a side-scroller that tore through boring gamers and gave us something to worship. I was still only 4 years old but I know all about the near game market crash of the early 80s.
This is no different to that. As a matter of fact its the SAME EXACT THING!!!! Money companies (we call them publishers) saw easy profits in selling reskinned games that play the exact same and constantly lied and claimed they were new. Sound the same, anyone?
So here's the REAL problem, now:
Us. Gamers.
Why? BECAUSE WE ARE AWARE THAT THE GAMES SUCK AND WE STILL BUY PRODUCTS FROM THE SAME EXACT COMPANIES HOPING THEY WILL EVENTUALLY CARE!
We don't demand scope concepts, we don't demand demo play, we don't demand prolonged betas when we see that there are still problems in the open beta that happens a month before launch, we don't demand our money back, and we don't demand new developers.
AS A MATTER OF FACT when we do get these things they come from Indie devs and we crap all over them because they don't have any experience building MMOs.
EXPERIENCE BUILDING BAD MMOS? REALLY? THAT'S WHAT WE WANT? THAT'S WHAT WE CRAVE THE MOST? We don't care about the game concept scope at all or that the team has provided a unique history through alpha and beta of building a game at the same (if not better) capacity as a "AAA" studio we just want to see Brad McQuaid's name on something and pretend he doesn't have more failures than successes... as a matter of fact two of his successes were him being a DEVELOPER and not a game DESIGNER.
Which brings me to another issue that takes place all the time: WE LET DEVELOPERS PRETEND THAT BECAUSE THEY HELPED TO CODE A SYSTEM IN A SUCCESSFUL GAME THAT THEY KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT GAME DESIGN AT ALL!
HOW DO THOSE TWO THINGS EVEN RELATE?
Could you imagine a drug dealer wanting to become a doctor all because "they help people"? That's the comparison. A systematic mind trying to pretend it is a creative mind. Get out of here.
If we want to save the industry we love it's on us at this point. This industry was BUILT on indie game design and developers and yet we act like that's not a fact. We act as if the experienced developers have provided us so many excellent games with their experience. We treat Indie companies like they had some wild audacity to ever imagine they could create a game... as if they had somehow deeply insulted us as gamers...
We need to get over ourselves. And fast. Because the truth is that the current set of "AAA" studios has no intent of ever changing unless someone rises out of the burning ashes around us and releases something that pushes the boundaries and gives gamers exactly what they want. (Which is funny because we're not exactly shy about telling these companies what we want...)
Comments
What would you call those premium time packages? I don't play many online games that aren't an MMO or a Steam purchase but if there's one, there are probably others. It actually seems to be a fairly popular model in phone games I've tried so I don't see why more PC games wouldn't use it. Also we still don't know how they classify Buy to Play games. If those are Pay 2 Play then you have MOST non-MMO games right there. Do they consider it P2P if you can get permanent VIP status through cash shop purchases? Boom. There is SMITE as P2P.
You can say I'm stretching, but you said I was stretching when I said we can't say for sure if they consider Freemium games P2P or not and look who was right on that one.
f2p games might have an effect on decrease of subscription mmorpg. It says right on the page which shows the subscription mmorpg trend.
I think some of those site just categorize game the way they do because it is easier. Because some games change model, for example old republic. Several games used to be p2p in all regions but become f2p/p2p mixed depend on region, for example Lineage, Tera, Aion.
West fantasy online actually use a time model. About 18$ for 150 hours. Wow china also use pay by play time.
I don't think it should be surprise many subscription games have decreased population because those games are really really old. I'm not sure how many people play the same mmorpg for more than 10 years. Judging by most people on this site, I guess not many.
The issue imo is the lack of a real franchise.
http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Best_selling_game_franchises
Don't get me wrong, there are some. However, everyone is making MMOs now and days and the genre is saturated with a ton of no name indie projects (Although I like them). Offline games have a more robust library compared to MMO players; with bigger titles as-well.
What would really shake up and rejuvenate the mmo world would be if one of these big name franchises dipped their feet in the MMO universe.
-Street fighter
-Mass effect
-Dragon Age
-Soul Calibur
-Mega Man
-Mario
-Sonic the Hedgehog
-Pokemon
-Resident Evil
-Assassin's Creed
-Halo
-Perfect Dark
-Metal gear
-Marvel MMO
-Metroid
-Castlevania
I can go on; but the biggest franchises are not MMOs. Imo, there lies the problem. I don't think WoW is strong enough to carry the MMO flag. DCUO had a chance, but blew it with awful development and superhero mmos were always a niche sub-genre which does not appeal to everyone.
The games listed above will be enough to improve MMO health.
Sometimes a big name is a cure all. A Street fighter MMO would surpass WoW; imo every game I listed will, with the exception of Perfect Dark and maybe Assassins Creed because of Unity. I found out about Warcraft through the MMO, I did not know any other games in the series existed.
The games I listed have a strong following, which would get the younger and older gamers into mmos seeing their childhood favorites revived Online. They are also highly profitable
These games are solid
http://store.steampowered.com/tag/en/Indie/#p=0&tab=NewReleases
Folks are not looking for this though, they are looking for this...
Presidential candidates do not bring any local Joes whom works in their garage to their support them, but known names because they can sell it. The MMO genre needs more known names, big names.
(Maybe some of the titles listed are MMOs, feel free to correct me, but I am unaware although I know some where ind development).
If those indie games are better
which they are
if those indie games are making money
which they are
if those indie games are exploding in popularity
which they are
then its time to re-calibrate your frame instead of wishing that traditional style MMO AAA projects that we all actually dont even like in the first place would then have a resurgence.
No, instead its better to embrace the change (because it appears to actually be good) and then create a new norm.
its time to stop trying to fit a square peg into a hole that has now changed in shape
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
10 years ago all kinds of people could jump online and give games like EQ2 and WoW a try. These days the only people at home with PC's that can handle new MMO's are gamers.
I dont think we will ever really see a return to the past popularity of MMO's.. at least not the traditional type.
Couple problems here. Define "We," take a look at the most profitable franchises over time.
Secondly, Indie pales in comparison to the likes of Mario or Street fighter. Whom would you want to use as a brand to get noticed, one of those games from the indie list, or Sonic, Mario, Zelda?
Health, in terms of MMOs or games in general refer to profitability and sustainability, these franchises has stood the test of time. Some of those indie projects may never make it out of alpha/early access; Ark is a prime example.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/346110/
Ark is the "it" indie project atm, but I believe Sony would not commit to Ark as it was. Indie and EA have a bad rep, because some never make it out; or devs take the dough and jet.
Everything you mentioned is subjective.
"If those indie games are better
which they are
if those indie games are making money
which they are
if those indie games are exploding in popularity
which they are"
I merely listed the most popular games base upon profitability over time; having a AAA brand in the MMO world can only help it.
Exploding in popularity among whom? Not the casuals. This is the audience I am targeting because they make up the majority of the gaming world. Not every gamer owns a high end PC, I would wager most do not. There is a world beyond mmos and these gamers need to be brought in. What better way than introducing a popular franchise.
1) The growth of the gaming community from the beginning of the MMO's life to now and they don't know how to parse that data
-OR-
2) They have no clue how bad the market is now compared to the cause of the growth of the market
The original MMORPGs all had some key elements that current MMOs just don't have (and by current I really mean those created within the past 10 years):
- Story
- Character Development
- Content (as in things to do... as in not the same 3 tasks repeated over 50 zones)
- Community Interaction (among themselves.. and not just PEOPLE but an actual community)
- Dev/Company to Community Interaction (remember GM events?)
- Customer Support (real CS... not shady CS with a million restrictions)
- Immersion (not possible without the other elements listed above...)
The problem here is that it takes a highly creative team with highly creative minds to not just create this but to evolve all of this. There are a few good looking projects out there but the MOMENT they refuse to talk about something I can promise you they KNOW that what they are creating will not satisfy you.
Devs even try to blame it on gamers but that's not even remotely fair. I mean I played Skyrim and Borderlands 2 for more than a thousand hours a piece... ONE OF THOSE IS A SINGLE PLAYER GAME! There are players who have invested ten TIMES more game time than that!
Now I'll say this: It is partially our fault. I know, I know "HOW DARE YOU" but hear me out, yeah?
We, as gamers, have been ridiculed and beaten on in our real world communities. If you're 30+ in age you probably had to hide that you were a gamer (hell I was a gamer at home and a gangster when I was out with my boys... I couldn't even BEGIN talking about how much I loved Final Fantasy and Zelda). Psychologically speaking - we've no confidence and no faith in what we are because those of us that grew up getting beat up for it have become so jaded that we bash on the young ones that come in and enjoy a different type of game from us. We've kind of become a$$holes, ourselves.
So when developers come along and sell things like "holy trinity" we say "Yeah! That makes sense!" EVEN THOUGH WE KNOW IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE AT ALL! I mean... how many times have you played D&D and you thought "CC? We don't need no stinking CC or buffs!" NEVER! Not once. I mean... when we try our hand at power builds or some craziness, sure, lol, but most of us always try to make sure we've got someone who can heal, tank, deal damage, debuff mobs, and buff us. That's five roles, homies... so why do we let them lie to us?
Developers have become completely relaxed. WE have become a RESOURCE and not a consumer. We are quite literally the epitome of what happens when the consumer lets the producer take control over a market they otherwise have no power in. HELLO ECONOMICS! Supply and demand tell us that they've got near infinite supply and we've got what is now 120 million gamers that they can STILL over supply. We should have control but we don't.
So the only issue now is that the products being supplied just flat out suck. I mean they SUCK.
But cut the "THE WORLD IS GOING TO END" nonsense because this happened once before and guess who saved it: Nintendo.
Mario, specifically, virtually pulled the gaming industry out of the dirt with a side-scroller that tore through boring gamers and gave us something to worship. I was still only 4 years old but I know all about the near game market crash of the early 80s.
This is no different to that. As a matter of fact its the SAME EXACT THING!!!! Money companies (we call them publishers) saw easy profits in selling reskinned games that play the exact same and constantly lied and claimed they were new. Sound the same, anyone?
So here's the REAL problem, now:
Us. Gamers.
Why? BECAUSE WE ARE AWARE THAT THE GAMES SUCK AND WE STILL BUY PRODUCTS FROM THE SAME EXACT COMPANIES HOPING THEY WILL EVENTUALLY CARE!
We don't demand scope concepts, we don't demand demo play, we don't demand prolonged betas when we see that there are still problems in the open beta that happens a month before launch, we don't demand our money back, and we don't demand new developers.
AS A MATTER OF FACT when we do get these things they come from Indie devs and we crap all over them because they don't have any experience building MMOs.
EXPERIENCE BUILDING BAD MMOS? REALLY? THAT'S WHAT WE WANT? THAT'S WHAT WE CRAVE THE MOST? We don't care about the game concept scope at all or that the team has provided a unique history through alpha and beta of building a game at the same (if not better) capacity as a "AAA" studio we just want to see Brad McQuaid's name on something and pretend he doesn't have more failures than successes... as a matter of fact two of his successes were him being a DEVELOPER and not a game DESIGNER.
Which brings me to another issue that takes place all the time: WE LET DEVELOPERS PRETEND THAT BECAUSE THEY HELPED TO CODE A SYSTEM IN A SUCCESSFUL GAME THAT THEY KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT GAME DESIGN AT ALL!
HOW DO THOSE TWO THINGS EVEN RELATE?
Could you imagine a drug dealer wanting to become a doctor all because "they help people"? That's the comparison. A systematic mind trying to pretend it is a creative mind. Get out of here.
If we want to save the industry we love it's on us at this point. This industry was BUILT on indie game design and developers and yet we act like that's not a fact. We act as if the experienced developers have provided us so many excellent games with their experience. We treat Indie companies like they had some wild audacity to ever imagine they could create a game... as if they had somehow deeply insulted us as gamers...
We need to get over ourselves. And fast. Because the truth is that the current set of "AAA" studios has no intent of ever changing unless someone rises out of the burning ashes around us and releases something that pushes the boundaries and gives gamers exactly what they want. (Which is funny because we're not exactly shy about telling these companies what we want...)