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What MMO aspect would you like to see forever removed never to return?

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  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,829
    Forgrimm said:
    Dungeon Kicking.  If I could choose one thing in mmo's to be gone forever and never come back it would be the option to vote to kick players.  What would you like to never see happen again in an mmo?
    So when a group gets that guy who afk's constantly and ends up doing less damage than the healer, or a troll who thinks it's funny to pull a bunch of adds and wipe the group, you wouldn't want the option to kick them?  O.o
    Sounds to me like the OP likely IS that guy. >.>

    The only reason I could think of for such a trollish request. Either that, or he secretly hates groupfinders and wants to keep people from ever teaming with random folks ever again. xD

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • Gamer54321Gamer54321 Member UncommonPosts: 452
    NEVER show a character with some terrible animation, which is on repeat, not standing still for a moment, and usually with an animation speed which is unnatural. Unnatural motions on animations on chars in character creation process. Stop it!!!
  • HarikenHariken Member EpicPosts: 2,680
    Mixing PVP with PVE. 
  • LithuanianLithuanian Member UncommonPosts: 559
    Random number generator. Be gone, forever - and be replaced with guaranteed loot.
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Fluffy quests. I love story driven content, but I just always get this feeling like somehow your mouse problem is less urgent than vanquishing some sort of evil that is threatening to take over the world. 

    Just sayin'

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
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    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
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  • LynxJSALynxJSA Member RarePosts: 3,334
    edited December 2016
    Junk loot. Everything should have a purpose or use beyond just a foo that exists only to add weight and collection restrictions back to currency. 
    -- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG 
    RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? 
    FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?  
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    botrytis said:
    Responding to above.

    1. With vertical progression, people DO want to feel their characters are improving. How you deal with that? GW2 and ESO both try to deal with it by down scaling. People want to feel they improve. As far as ranks, well people want to have rewards (badges). A game that has neither will NEVER succeed as it doesn't offer any carrot to people. Try a Tale in the Desert for no levels, kind of interesting but felt that I really didn't progress and felt lost (also not a game that drew many people to play since this is the exact type of game you profess to want - appeals to a very small minority and will not make money).

    2. How else are you going to get XP then? You do not give ANY alternatives. You just whine about it.

    3. It does not take 5 minutes to master twitch combat. There is more to it than just reflexes. So, what you want is to stand in place and use your skills, how boring to me. RL doesn't work that way. Even boxers move around the ring. Again just complaining, how would you change it?

    The problem is, game companies are in it to make money. If they cannot appeal to the majority of players, how can they make money? Until you figure out how you can appeal to a small population and still make profit, we will have games such as the ones that are out now.

    I know this thread is just about what you want to remove from games, but it seems to me, w/o giving new ideas on how to improve the games, it will turn into a whine thread.
    Not necessarily, people still plat -Counter-strike so the gameplay can be a reward in itself. That is pretty hard to do in a MMO but not impossible, Guildwars did a rather good job in 2005.

    I think though that having progression but a low powergap have far greater potential for a MMORPG.

    MMOs are generally based on D&D which have a huge focus on XP from killing stuff and looting gear. There are however other pen and paper roleplaying game that are different and have huge potential as well. Shadowrun would be my first choice.

    Shadowrun have progression but not levels, and you can't generally take more damage just because you gain power (I say generally because you can raise your attributes with Karma (XP), Cybertech and Biotech which do make you tougher. The main focus on progression is gaining skills, attributes and NeoYen but besides a few magical and adept powers (and cool alpha Cyberware) you can get almost anything on a starting character, however focusing like that will leave that character very weak in other areas. 

    Any combat in SR is risky, there is always the chance that a street-thug could get really lucky and take you down  even if it is very unlikely with an experienced runner. That chance forces players to use good tactics to win combat instead of just hitting everything they see without thinking.

    Another interesting thing with SR is that you generally gain karma by completing stories and challenging, not by grinding mobs. In MMO terms that means you would get XP for completing dungeons and longer quests but not by spawn camping.

    Players can certainly get cool stuff but besides weapon focus (magical melee weapons ised by mages and adepts there is not that much improvement in weapons as such. Vehicles, cyber & Bioware, estate and even companies are the things you upgrade for money, many runners keep their starting weapon for an entire campaign.

    I think that kind of mechanics have a lot of potential since it wont just feel like any MMO you already played while mixing the players tactics and the toons stats in an exciting way. There are certainly a lot of things to consider, the mix between melee, firearms and magic means you would need to develop a few new mechanics, and you would have to decide exactly how your combat mechanics would work. The group dynamics are already there.

    I wouldn't make it FPS style, that never worked that great in MMOs but closer to action based games like GW2. Tab targeting at single target and AoE circles for Aoe spells, grenades and auto fire bursts.

    In any case, what we do need is indeed something that can appeal to more then a few players but it also need to play out rather different from Wow. We need something that makes both PvE and PvP interesting and we need to remove the combat you can't loose in either because that part isn't really fun. You can still have 95% to win of course but you should never have 100%.

    Downleveling like GW2 uses have it's advantages but it is just a fix for a rather large problem and not really good enough.
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,847
    botrytis said:
    <snip>
    Responding to above.

    1. With vertical progression, people DO want to feel their characters are improving. How you deal with that? GW2 and ESO both try to deal with it by down scaling. People want to feel they improve. As far as ranks, well people want to have rewards (badges). A game that has neither will NEVER succeed as it doesn't offer any carrot to people. Try a Tale in the Desert for no levels, kind of interesting but felt that I really didn't progress and felt lost (also not a game that drew many people to play since this is the exact type of game you profess to want - appeals to a very small minority and will not make money).

    2. How else are you going to get XP then? You do not give ANY alternatives. You just whine about it.

    3. It does not take 5 minutes to master twitch combat. There is more to it than just reflexes. So, what you want is to stand in place and use your skills, how boring to me. RL doesn't work that way. Even boxers move around the ring. Again just complaining, how would you change it?

    The problem is, game companies are in it to make money. If they cannot appeal to the majority of players, how can they make money? Until you figure out how you can appeal to a small population and still make profit, we will have games such as the ones that are out now.

    I know this thread is just about what you want to remove from games, but it seems to me, w/o giving new ideas on how to improve the games, it will turn into a whine thread.
    1) I want to see my character progress too, I just prefer horizontal progression and feel it is better for the community. Most people struggle to understand what horizontal progression is, so perhaps it is easier to think of it as specialisation. 

    A quick example. 

    At level 1, you have a skill called "Slash". It does 100 slash damage. This works fine against clothies, but as it is slash damage it only does 25% damage to heavy armour people. At level 2, you unlock "Stab". It does 100 piercing damage but shares a cooldown with Slash. Stab ignores armour, so it is better to use against armoured mobs, but clothies have a 75% chance to avoid it. 

    The skills are basically the same - they both do 100 damage on average - so it is not vertical progression. However, both are useful, just in different situations, so they are worth unlocking / getting and working out how best to use. 

    Another quick example, but from an itemisation point of view. 

    In a game like WoW, you complete a raid and get a chestpiece with 1000 armour. You then complete the next tier of raids and get a chestpiece with 1200 armour. This is vertical progression. 

    In vanilla LotRO, it had horizontal progression at endgame. One raid might drop a weapon that does 100 damage with 1 speed (fast), whilst another raid dropped a weapon that does 200 damage with 2 speed (slow). They average out at the same dps (100), hence being horizontal, but the fast weapon speed results in a different emphasis in rotation and build (focused on consistent output) whilst the slower weapon meant bigger crits, so the rotation would be different and focused on the heaviest hitting skills and you'd build yourself up for more crit chance. 



    2) There are already loads of ways to earn XP, it is just at the moment quests have the most XP so you are basically forced to do quests instead of anything else. I didn't leave out recommendations because I just wanted to whine, this is a thread about what you want removing, not what you'd replace them with. But, for your benefit, here are some other ways to earn XP:
    • Killing mobs (yes, I would prefer to grind mobs all day rather than quest)
    • Exploration
    • Crafting
    • PvP
    • Achievements
    • Duelling
    • Dungeons and Raids
    • Trading
    Quests, in their typical form, are just a method to guide players to these activities anyway. You already have quests that tell you to farm instances. Loads of kill quests. Some crafting quests. The quests themselves are pointless, it is the activity you do on the quest that is important. I'd just rather not be told what to do and instead choose my own path, however, I can't because the XP gains from quests are too lucrative. 


    3) I can see you have no imagination at all, but thats fine. I've obviously exaggerated with the 5 minutes thing, but not by much. It usually takes me 2 or 3 fights to get to grips with the controls, sometimes a bit more if the controls are clunky. But, due to the limited number of skills in an action game, it usually only takes a few minutes each time I learn a new skill to figure out how best to use it, either as part of a rotation or as a situational. 

    But, thats it. Once you've understood the controls and understood how best to use your skills, everything else is just execution. That requires skill, sure, but no brain power (apart from ability to concentrate). You need spatial awareness, aiming and fast reactions. None of these things require any reasoning, just practice. That is why I find it boring. My mind is not engaging with the combat. There is no depth, no meaningful choices. I need to be quick, yes, and I need to aim, yes, and these things require physical skill and take time to master. But, they require no mental skill. 

    I prefer deep combat systems.

    By this, I mean that the combat must force you to make meaningful decisions during combat and for your success or failure to be a result of you making the right (or wrong) decisions. The more types of decisions you have to make, the deeper the system. So, twitch systems / action combat, you usually only have a very small number of skills plus movement, so making the right decision is very easy and you're making the same decisions over and over. This is shallow. In traditional tab-targeting systems where you might have 40 skills, there is a higher probably that you'll have to make more decisions more often. Do you use skill X, Y, Z, 1, 2 or 3? Then 1.5s later, you have to choose between skills A, B, C and D. Each choice to make feeds into the next choice, forcing you to think into the future. 

    This can then be combined with movement too (most tab-target games involve plenty of movement already). Now, tab-target doesn't mean it is automatically deep (swtor had tab-target but was extremely shallow). Best examples of deep combat that I've played are LotRO and WAR (but limited to PvP only). I'm told WoW has deep combat too but I've never seen any evidence, WoW just appears to be complex. 


    My perfect system would be the deep combat from LotRO (tons of skills, but majority being situational or group-based) but with a free-aim system like Wildstar (just without telegraphs) and better dodging. This would provide the depth that is missing from all twitch/action games, whilst increasing the importance of aiming and movement to try and keep things more fluid. 
    Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman

  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,177
    edited December 2016
    Forced PvP.

    Dungeon kicking if it is removed you are going to be with people who do not want to have anything to do with you. Although you say it prevents you from learning the dungeon slowly but it begs the question why you expect people to teach you. If you want a group to teach you the dungeon then go with your guild.

    Random strangers do not want to have to spend time sometimes playing with people who do not know what they are doing. Their money, their time, their prerogative so by forcing them to be in a group with you is not really improving neither your dungeon experience nor theirs. Join a group and inform them that you are new and if they mind instead of forcing them to deal with you.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,771
    DMKano said:
    Questing being used as the main mechanic for leveling up, as well as leading players on a linear path through the game.

    In short - linear questing, aka spoonfeeding players since 2004, kill it please

    Questing should be used for story and as a way for spell casters to gain knowledge of new abilities.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,771
    Class-restricted role.
    Make a class can fulfill every role (tank, healer, damage-dealer), but only one at a time. I guess Rift executed this idea perfectly.

    Vertical-based progression.
    One of the biggest reasons I am still playing GW2 to this day because it has mostly horizontal-based progression. I feel I just want to see more MMO adapted progression system like GW2 and ESO implemented.

    Cheap teleportation cost.
    Well, for starter it sounds ridiculous. I mean, a magic so powerful that transport your body to another area should been costly for any player. Make it really expensive or make it class-specific ability.

    Cheap trading post cost.
    Make it cost more expensive and give players ability to make their own booth for selling/buying with another player. I guess this will encourage more interaction between players and allow more players to control game economy. Lineage 2 is one example of MMO that has this kind of interaction.

    Limitless gear use.
    Make gear/equip decayed over time. This concept will allow more involvement for crafter players and make gear buying/selling from player to player more frequent.

    Gear drops from mobs.
    First, it really kills immersion. Second, it drives player to become more "autistic" (for me at least) because you kinda no need to craft your own gear or interact to another player for crafted gear. Remove this and hopefully we can see more player interaction.



    Wheew, my brain should rest for a bit I guess..
    What does the number one mean in your world?  haha

    Classes are great.  This switching classes caters to the I want it now crowd.  Get rid of those types of players and get back to strong class roles.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,760
    Funny how a few things mentioned here are things I would like to see return to mmorpgs, though most I can agree on - Shows how very different taste mmorpg players have.

    Anyways, there are a handful of things but if I had to pick one that has really messed up mmorpgs it would be shops with ingame items (which includes f2p). 
  • centkincentkin Member RarePosts: 1,527
    Instancing -- it has such a huge negative impact on games.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,771
    Nanfoodle said:
    botrytis said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    Twitch combat. Bring back the trinity and interclass support. 

    There are games with interclass support w/o the Trinity at it was an old mechanic born from D&D rules. We have out grown them for the most part.

    Thanks for speaking for all gamers =-P 

    I disagree on trinity was from dnd.  The term trinity was created post dnd creation.  There wasn't an aggro component.  Clerics could heal, but they had better armor than magic-users and rogues and the combat table second to only the fighter types.

    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,985
    F2P/cash shops. Not a good look for the industry.

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,771
    After reading through the various opinions it really seems that collectively, the MMO aspects that MMO players would like to see removed are all of them.

    I'm curious, do so many people these days feel the MMORPG genre has grown stagnant because the very features that define what they are can't be significantly changed without the fans feeling they no longer deserve the classification of being an MMORPG?

    I want to buy a game with a cash shop that sells a trophy that you get for winning the mmoRPG!  Get it all over in a minute!! 
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • centkincentkin Member RarePosts: 1,527
    The other thing I don't like, but it is external so there is simply no way to remove it, is the ascendency of voice chat.  That is another thing that ruins worlds // immersion // and in a lot of ways good play.
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 3,223
    People all having the same gear infuriates me. i.e. L2 and others. I like when everyone has different gear like in PoE with the breadth of rares, there are a ton of uniques, but tons of people uses rares as well. 

    Cryomatrix
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • raystantzraystantz Final Fantasy XI CorrespondentMember UncommonPosts: 1,237
    Dungeon finder.

    www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules

    Currently playing:

    FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA. 

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,771
    kitarad said:
    Forced PvP.

    Dungeon kicking if it is removed you are going to be with people who do not want to have anything to do with you. Although you say it prevents you from learning the dungeon slowly but it begs the question why you expect people to teach you. If you want a group to teach you the dungeon then go with your guild.

    Random strangers do not want to have to spend time sometimes playing with people who do not know what they are doing. Their money, their time, their prerogative so by forcing them to be in a group with you is not really improving neither your dungeon experience nor theirs. Join a group and inform them that you are new and if they mind instead of forcing them to deal with you.

    If you want pro level play, make your own group/guild.  Random public is for every skill level.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • H0urg1assH0urg1ass Member EpicPosts: 2,380
    Slotted fucking inventories.

    My first two MMO's were Planetside and EVE Online, so imagine my dismay when I found out that the rest of MMO land uses this ridiculous system of slots.  I can put one full plate armor chest piece in a bag slot or one feather and it takes up the same amount of room.  What the hell kind of stupid inventory system is that?
  • ElsaboltsElsabolts Member RarePosts: 3,476
    Funcom
    " Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Those Who  Would Threaten It "
                                            MAGA
  • H0urg1assH0urg1ass Member EpicPosts: 2,380
    Elsabolts said:
    Funcom

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,004
    Multiple currencies. 

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,004
    Kyleran said:
    Talonsin said:
    Dailies - I dont need a second job.  Just put meaningful content in the game and stop hiding the good stuff behind daily repetition.

    Lootboxes - Dont make me pay extra to get loot from mobs

    RNG Crafting - Why have crafting levels if it has no effect on how successful you will be when making something?  When I fail 50 times and my guildmate gets it on his first try, it makes me want to leave the game.
    One reason I quickly stopped playing GW2 at launch was the presentation of daily quests that made me feel like I was missing out if I didnt do them.

    I enjoy logging into a MMORPG and doing my own thing, so I am loath for "forced" schedule activities including raiding, CTAs, holiday events (complete them before they end) along with dailies.

    Even EVE has started increasing the number of "for a limited time only" events which I can't stand, giving you a few weeks only to hunt some pirate faction for items with a rapid expiry timer.
    GW2 is one of the few games that you can enjoy the content you want for the most part.  I don't do daily's, fractiles, dungeons, raids, and barely PvP but always manage to login and have fun with dynamic events, exploration still, public boss fights.  ESO crafting isn't necessary or having gear sets in PvE which is why I still play that game.   

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

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