Indeed (or at least partly, RPG is more then levels) but you would get really fun combat and that is where PvP MMOs usually fail.
Aligment systems sadly wont work because some people just don't care and the more you are trying to restrict the griefing the more inventive they get.
That's why I am a big fan of the Faction System, you basically choose which side you want to play in and you have to stick with it at least for a while. RvR, GvG, Good vs Evil, choose a side and you are good to go, you can kill who you like except player of your own Realm, Guild or Alignment (in this case you choose the Alignment Ex. being a Pirate) Sure there is less freedom as you won't be able to kill as you please, but that's the only way to limit the annoying ganking which drives players away.
Indeed (or at least partly, RPG is more then levels) but you would get really fun combat and that is where PvP MMOs usually fail.
Aligment systems sadly wont work because some people just don't care and the more you are trying to restrict the griefing the more inventive they get.
That's why I am a big fan of the Faction System, you basically choose which side you want to play in and you have to stick with it at least for a while. RvR, GvG, Good vs Evil, choose a side and you are good to go, you can kill who you like except player of your own Realm, Guild or Alignment (in this case you choose the Alignment Ex. being a Pirate) Sure there is less freedom as you won't be able to kill as you please, but that's the only way to limit the annoying ganking which drives players away.
Not seeing the logic. Played vanilla WOW on a PVP server and got routinely ganked by Horde once I entered Stranglethorn Vale and after.
DAOC did it better with separate zones for RVR.
Though I spent most of my time there on the FFA Mordred server. Not that I enjoyed being ganked, but I preferred the freedom to access all 3 realms on one character.
I also preferred Guild vs the world, made it more personal and less zergy.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Do sandbox MMORPGs need some element of danger of the magnitude of Unrestricted PvP?
What do you think? Is it really a sandbox without the PvP? If so, what drives the change necessary for it to be emergent content versus canned?
Sandbox is a philosophy, not a feature list. It is about creating a set of tools (toys), putting it in a world (sandpit) and then leaving the players to create their own fun.
PvP is obviously a great feature and, as you are killing other players, it is by definition a sandbox feature. I personally wouldn't play any MMO that doesn't have PvP as I find it to be the most enjoyable part of an MMO, but at the same time it all comes down to implementation.
I believe the main reason why many sandboxes have PvP, especially unrestricted PvP with loot implications, is because it is a great way to keep other sandbox features alive, namely the economy.
If you die and you lose loot, you essentially force the community to engage in other activities. It might be grinding mobs / dungeons / raids in order to replace lost loot, or to gain crafting materials which feeds the crafters which feeds the economy. It keeps the wheel turning.
However, PvP is not the only way to keep that wheel turning. SWG did it by having item degradation for all activities. Even if all you did was grind easy mobs all day long, each hit you dealt and each hit you received would gradually wear down your gear until it eventually needed replacing. This meant the economy was always healthy and robust, so crafters and gathers were happy, high-end PvErs were happy as their rare loot had a market and a purpose and the PvPers were kept busy both in the PvP itself but also in having to find inventive ways to replace their gear.
In terms of emergent content and what drives it, it's all about the tools that are available to the community. It is hard to make PvE have emergent content because it is defined from the outset by the developers. However, you can at least have emergent gameplay within PvE. To achieve this, you need a very deep and flexible combat system. If you just have the trinity, or if you just have action combat, you wont succeed. But, if you start adding more class types and then remove restrictions, you can get there. LotRO had this with it's trinity+ system (tank, heal, dps, support). Sure, you could do a 6man dungeon with tank, healer and 4 dps, but you could also do it with 3 tanks and 3 healers, or 1 healer, 4 dps and 1 support, or 6 support, or......, or......
The combat system gave you so many options to tackle content that it freed up the community to be inventive. The actual boss might be the same every time, but your approach and tactics could vary wildly to match your group setup and so success / failure was all about player skill, not gear and classes.
The other thing that springs to mind would be some sort of quest builder. The devs give us the tools, but we build the content - sandbox! I'm not much of a fan of this approach as experience tells me 99% of the content will be shit, but if the tools were good enough then it could be fun.
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Doesn't work. Too many of the player base do not pvp for the fun of pvping. They pvp to drive the other player out of the game and then wonder why this idea is niche.
This is a separate issue though. For the purpose of this thread can we assume that it is a game that has X population who read the EULA, knew the game was unrestricted PvP, and did not internalize the frustration of being killed in the game?
I don't imagine that anyone disputes the ratio of PvP vs. PvE leaning players, nor the effect that it has on sales.
What I am wondering about is if the genre is basically a continuum of Static to Dynamic (or vice versa as I am not assigning a value).
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
Comments
RvR, GvG, Good vs Evil, choose a side and you are good to go, you can kill who you like except player of your own Realm, Guild or Alignment (in this case you choose the Alignment Ex. being a Pirate)
Sure there is less freedom as you won't be able to kill as you please, but that's the only way to limit the annoying ganking which drives players away.
DAOC did it better with separate zones for RVR.
Though I spent most of my time there on the FFA Mordred server. Not that I enjoyed being ganked, but I preferred the freedom to access all 3 realms on one character.
I also preferred Guild vs the world, made it more personal and less zergy.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
PvP is obviously a great feature and, as you are killing other players, it is by definition a sandbox feature. I personally wouldn't play any MMO that doesn't have PvP as I find it to be the most enjoyable part of an MMO, but at the same time it all comes down to implementation.
I believe the main reason why many sandboxes have PvP, especially unrestricted PvP with loot implications, is because it is a great way to keep other sandbox features alive, namely the economy.
If you die and you lose loot, you essentially force the community to engage in other activities. It might be grinding mobs / dungeons / raids in order to replace lost loot, or to gain crafting materials which feeds the crafters which feeds the economy. It keeps the wheel turning.
However, PvP is not the only way to keep that wheel turning. SWG did it by having item degradation for all activities. Even if all you did was grind easy mobs all day long, each hit you dealt and each hit you received would gradually wear down your gear until it eventually needed replacing. This meant the economy was always healthy and robust, so crafters and gathers were happy, high-end PvErs were happy as their rare loot had a market and a purpose and the PvPers were kept busy both in the PvP itself but also in having to find inventive ways to replace their gear.
In terms of emergent content and what drives it, it's all about the tools that are available to the community. It is hard to make PvE have emergent content because it is defined from the outset by the developers. However, you can at least have emergent gameplay within PvE. To achieve this, you need a very deep and flexible combat system. If you just have the trinity, or if you just have action combat, you wont succeed. But, if you start adding more class types and then remove restrictions, you can get there. LotRO had this with it's trinity+ system (tank, heal, dps, support). Sure, you could do a 6man dungeon with tank, healer and 4 dps, but you could also do it with 3 tanks and 3 healers, or 1 healer, 4 dps and 1 support, or 6 support, or......, or......
The combat system gave you so many options to tackle content that it freed up the community to be inventive. The actual boss might be the same every time, but your approach and tactics could vary wildly to match your group setup and so success / failure was all about player skill, not gear and classes.
The other thing that springs to mind would be some sort of quest builder. The devs give us the tools, but we build the content - sandbox! I'm not much of a fan of this approach as experience tells me 99% of the content will be shit, but if the tools were good enough then it could be fun.
I don't imagine that anyone disputes the ratio of PvP vs. PvE leaning players, nor the effect that it has on sales.
What I am wondering about is if the genre is basically a continuum of Static to Dynamic (or vice versa as I am not assigning a value).