not entirely true. When you know the other is controlled by a person and you attack them for the simple purpose of screwing with another person that is a psychological issue.
I would call a "psychological issue" someone attacking you in real life because of what happened in a video game. I know that's happened before but that's not what we are talking about here.
We are talking about a players "character" attacking another players "character" in a video game designed for players characters to attack each other.
You're talking about something entirely different, but that's par for the course for these discussions.
You are talking about what, General Zod. He is talking about why. Yes, we all agree that players kill other players in a PVP game and that's what they are made for. Let's move the conversation forward. Join us in talking about the WHY.
The OP asks WHY do some need it to feel free.
Horusra's post isn't saying there is a psychological issue with killing another player rather an issue with WHY it is done in some cases.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
If you can allow predators ruin the game for new players then the learning curve is too steep or impossible if they get griefed.
In that case there should be zones that are guarded, and in the spirit of ffaowpvp, even the guards can be attacked, but of course the guards are extremely tough.
Then you have more riskky but more rewarding zones which allows players from the get go to go if they want to.
So to make a guard system work it needs smart AI and a real world with npc armies and politics that is a sand box for players to participate in.
Sand box also means building things, so building empires, alliances, and trade all in the open.
If you also allow for players to become powerful then they can hold their own much better, and if you also allow for server resets then you allow foe new players a more even footing to amass wealth.
So imo for ffaowpvp it needs;
1. Guards, and good AI, and npc politics/armies 2. Server resets for conquest mode
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
PvP is not a requirement for sandbox games at all.
Agreed but I think you'd admit they are boring as sin without it.
I used to play Darkfall, so I expected to encounter pvp when I was out in the world leveling skills on pve mobs, mining, etc. There was no building or farming.
In a pve-centric game with optional pvp, I can envision some kind of factional warzone. You can farm safely in "empire space" but if you want to go out into more dangerous and known pvp areas, you have to consent to getting ganked. Or you can pay people to go there and get mats for you.
Some people do enjoy trading and building up a financial empire. But there have to be things worth buying. Also, how cash shops can affect an economy is another matter.
PvP is not a requirement for sandbox games at all.
Agreed but I think you'd admit they are boring as sin without it.
While I agree with you 100% (as I love PvP) - there are people who can plant crops, fish, decorate their house, build stuff etc.. for months on end and not get bored.
In BDO there were a bunch of players who suicided to stay below the PvP
level so they could craft.
There were people who played SWG just to dance in the cantina, craft ect. There were some crafters that started huge business enterprises with chain malls of their goods all over the universe. They would send update emails on sales ect. All their goods had their names on them and most times you referred to that as a mark of the highest quality. This was one of the coolest things I've seen in an MMO in a long time and one I doubt I will see again. There are plenty of those players out there just waiting for another game.
PvP is not a requirement for sandbox games at all.
I agree. But it is also true that PvP Sandboxes could be viable too if developers would put some serious thoughts in it, instead of using the freedom the Sandbox offers as an excuse for their poor design and code skills.
Not only that but they're willing to throw obscene amounts of money at that type of gaming. A few years ago my mates finances went to shit and he couldn't figure out why. It turns out the wife was blowing over a thousand a month on Farmville. Mind boggling.
Yes that's what puzzles me. In EvE 50 % of player are Spread Sheets Warriors, even in Darkfall a huge amount of players spent an awful amount of time crafting shit. This people, even if they focus on crafting, like to PvP too, they just don't want to do it 24/7 like a small minority that thinks that a MMO PvP should be a glorified Battlefield Online.
Yet most of PvP game design are made to scare this kind of players off (the Prey), which means that the Hunters have nothing to hunt and get bored. But Developers seem like they never learn.
not entirely true. When you know the other is controlled by a person and you attack them for the simple purpose of screwing with another person that is a psychological issue.
I would call a "psychological issue" someone attacking you in real life because of what happened in a video game. I know that's happened before but that's not what we are talking about here.
We are talking about a players "character" attacking another players "character" in a video game designed for players characters to attack each other.
No it's not the character that attacks another character. It's the person controlling the character that is doing it to the person controlling the other character.
Just so everybody's on the same page, i'll say it again. I know the discussion is about whether or not sandboxes need to have full loot pvp but i'm not talking about that. I never comment on any thread without reading through all the post beforehand. While I was reading through the comments here I saw words being thrown around such as sociopath, psychopath and murder. Which is probably no big deal because it's the internet but at my job I deal with people that have real psychological issues and I can assure you it's not because they ruined peoples "video game" experience.
I'm not trying to be preachy, I just want to broaden the scope a little bit.
The video Iseline posted was by known Darkfall losers and anybody that has played Darkfall or Unholy wars long enough will tell you that. A similar tactic was done to me at the bank in Red Moon (afk) but they were unsuccessful. With that being said, spawn killing still doesn't mean you need to see a psychiatrist no matter how many people agree with you. Spawn killing just means you're an asshole.
One could go so far as to say it's the unhealthy attachment to these virtual characters could be the reason why people feel so strongly about grief... but that's another thread entirely.
PvP is not a requirement for sandbox games at all.
Agreed but I think you'd admit they are boring as sin without it.
While I agree with you 100% (as I love PvP) - there are people who can plant crops, fish, decorate their house, build stuff etc.. for months on end and not get bored.
In BDO there were a bunch of players who suicided to stay below the PvP
level so they could craft.
There were people who played SWG just to dance in the cantina, craft ect. There were some crafters that started huge business enterprises with chain malls of their goods all over the universe. They would send update emails on sales ect. All their goods had their names on them and most times you referred to that as a mark of the highest quality. This was one of the coolest things I've seen in an MMO in a long time and one I doubt I will see again. There are plenty of those players out there just waiting for another game.
I know I was there in SWG. Thing is though, the reason that all worked is because those crafters and doctors and dancers were all supplying goods or services for another type of player. They had a reason to exist. No other game seems to have gotten that formula right since.
That's the thing though that "other type of player" was a flagged pvp'er or a pve doing other things. It wasn't a person that was just running out killing other people left and right and looting their bodies. PVP in SWG was completely consensual as you had to flag or be on a pvp specific planet (you knew you were going there). You couldn't just run off and kill whoever you wanted. No other games get the formula right because they try and focus on purely combat and make all the other shit an after thought now. Combat is fine and all good and all, but there needs to be connections with crafting, gathering, combat, builders etc and there just aren't.
Then the ones that try and promise it go off rails with OWPVP which is blah. Really the flagging system works for those that want to be "risk takers" with having people able to jump them. Honestly people (particularly devs) don't seem to get the point that the flagging system allows for all gameplay types on a single server without there being sociopathic like behavior.
I think I would actually enjoy a few of the sandboxes, but the OP is right: Almost every single one feels it has to have FFA PVP and it drives alot of us away from the game......Most of us just dont want to work for something only to have it taken away by a bully or group of them.....Alot of people cite UO as the standardbearer for this, but really the game was much more popular when Trammell was introduced than before....I look at a game like WIld Terra, and between the outdated look of the game and the ruleset I have no interest.
...Alot of people cite UO as the standardbearer for this, but really the game was much more popular when Trammell was introduced than before....
Excellent point. Both UO and EVE Online have proven that in a sandbox game with unforgiving PVP at its core, only about 20% of the playerbase is going to voluntarily participate in it. Since PVP combat is the most invasive/intrusive of all player activities, the game has to decide whether it wants to abandon other activities or corral the PVP. One can easily attribute the successes and longevity of EVE Online and post-Trammel UO to the corralling of PVP, allowing the other activities to flourish. IMO, until their PVP match is disrupted by someone baking bread, most MMO PVPers will simply not grasp this. At least that has been the case so far.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
not entirely true. When you know the other is controlled by a person and you attack them for the simple purpose of screwing with another person that is a psychological issue.
I would call a "psychological issue" someone attacking you in real life because of what happened in a video game. I know that's happened before but that's not what we are talking about here.
We are talking about a players "character" attacking another players "character" in a video game designed for players characters to attack each other.
No it's not the character that attacks another character. It's the person controlling the character that is doing it to the person controlling the other character.
Just so everybody's on the same page, i'll say it again. I know the discussion is about whether or not sandboxes need to have full loot pvp but i'm not talking about that. I never comment on any thread without reading through all the post beforehand. While I was reading through the comments here I saw words being thrown around such as sociopath, psychopath and murder. Which is probably no big deal because it's the internet but at my job I deal with people that have real psychological issues and I can assure you it's not because they ruined peoples "video game" experience.
I'm not trying to be preachy, I just want to broaden the scope a little bit.
The video Iseline posted was by known Darkfall losers and anybody that has played Darkfall or Unholy wars long enough will tell you that. A similar tactic was done to me at the bank in Red Moon (afk) but they were unsuccessful. With that being said, spawn killing still doesn't mean you need to see a psychiatrist no matter how many people agree with you. Spawn killing just means you're an asshole.
One could go so far as to say it's the unhealthy attachment to these virtual characters could be the reason why people feel so strongly about grief... but that's another thread entirely.
You may want to not put a psychological label on people who are "assholes" to others in game or real life, but there is something wrong with these folks.
You will never convince me its acceptable to take pleasure in preying on the weak or spoiling other players just for the sake of it.
Nor will I accept its just a game or they are just pixels. I play them as virtual worlds and my character is a representation of myself in real life.
I always assume the other person's is pretty much representational of them in real life, outside of the fact real life has controls to force them to mask their abberent behaviors.
TLDR: If you behave as an asshole in a game (or forum for that matter) you are most likely one in real life.
If I ran the world asshole behavior would be soundly and severely punished wherever it was observed.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
...Alot of people cite UO as the standardbearer for this, but really the game was much more popular when Trammell was introduced than before....
Excellent point. Both UO and EVE Online have proven that in a sandbox game with unforgiving PVP at its core, only about 20% of the playerbase is going to voluntarily participate in it. Since PVP combat is the most invasive/intrusive of all player activities, the game has to decide whether it wants to abandon other activities or corral the PVP. One can easily attribute the successes and longevity of EVE Online and post-Trammel UO to the corralling of PVP, allowing the other activities to flourish. IMO, until their PVP match is disrupted by someone baking bread, most MMO PVPers will simply not grasp this. At least that has been the case so far.
EVE NEEDS pvp, without it nothing would be destroyed, there would be no demand on the market and the economy would stop.
Kinda like WoW.
PVE fights without any risk of losing anything.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
not entirely true. When you know the other is controlled by a person and you attack them for the simple purpose of screwing with another person that is a psychological issue.
I would call a "psychological issue" someone attacking you in real life because of what happened in a video game. I know that's happened before but that's not what we are talking about here.
We are talking about a players "character" attacking another players "character" in a video game designed for players characters to attack each other.
No it's not the character that attacks another character. It's the person controlling the character that is doing it to the person controlling the other character.
Just so everybody's on the same page, i'll say it again. I know the discussion is about whether or not sandboxes need to have full loot pvp but i'm not talking about that. I never comment on any thread without reading through all the post beforehand. While I was reading through the comments here I saw words being thrown around such as sociopath, psychopath and murder. Which is probably no big deal because it's the internet but at my job I deal with people that have real psychological issues and I can assure you it's not because they ruined peoples "video game" experience.
I'm not trying to be preachy, I just want to broaden the scope a little bit.
The video Iseline posted was by known Darkfall losers and anybody that has played Darkfall or Unholy wars long enough will tell you that. A similar tactic was done to me at the bank in Red Moon (afk) but they were unsuccessful. With that being said, spawn killing still doesn't mean you need to see a psychiatrist no matter how many people agree with you. Spawn killing just means you're an asshole.
One could go so far as to say it's the unhealthy attachment to these virtual characters could be the reason why people feel so strongly about grief... but that's another thread entirely.
You may want to not put a psychological label on people who are "assholes" to others in game or real life, but there is something wrong with these folks.
You will never convince me its acceptable to take pleasure in preying on the weak or spoiling other players just for the sake of it.
Nor will I accept its just a game or they are just pixels. I play them as virtual worlds and my character is a representation of myself in real life.
I always assume the other person's is pretty much representational of them in real life, outside of the fact real life has controls to force them to mask their abberent behaviors.
TLDR: If you behave as an asshole in a game (or forum for that matter) you are most likely one in real life.
If I ran the world asshole behavior would be soundly and severely punished wherever it was observed.
The US President -Elect would like to have a word with you......
...Alot of people cite UO as the standardbearer for this, but really the game was much more popular when Trammell was introduced than before....
Excellent point. Both UO and EVE Online have proven that in a sandbox game with unforgiving PVP at its core, only about 20% of the playerbase is going to voluntarily participate in it. Since PVP combat is the most invasive/intrusive of all player activities, the game has to decide whether it wants to abandon other activities or corral the PVP. One can easily attribute the successes and longevity of EVE Online and post-Trammel UO to the corralling of PVP, allowing the other activities to flourish. IMO, until their PVP match is disrupted by someone baking bread, most MMO PVPers will simply not grasp this. At least that has been the case so far.
A Sandbox game with a player driven economy absolutely has to have some way in which players lose things. If they don't lose them, then they only ever need to buy one. This is why markets in games like WoW are crap. You raid for your armor and weapons, and then you have them and then you don't need anything from the market.
PVP is an essential element of the market cycle.
However, like you stated, EVE has been successful in sort-of corralling the PVP'ers into some areas. Other areas have allowed the crafters to flourish. This separation, while not 100% effective (and I don't think it should ever be 100%) is what allows the entire economic cycle of creation and destruction to work.
...Alot of people cite UO as the standardbearer for this, but really the game was much more popular when Trammell was introduced than before....
Excellent point. Both UO and EVE Online have proven that in a sandbox game with unforgiving PVP at its core, only about 20% of the playerbase is going to voluntarily participate in it. Since PVP combat is the most invasive/intrusive of all player activities, the game has to decide whether it wants to abandon other activities or corral the PVP. One can easily attribute the successes and longevity of EVE Online and post-Trammel UO to the corralling of PVP, allowing the other activities to flourish. IMO, until their PVP match is disrupted by someone baking bread, most MMO PVPers will simply not grasp this. At least that has been the case so far.
The majority of the players who participate in Eve do so in high-sec doing pve.
Eve's pvp is candy coated.
Most of the time is jumping from gate to gate only to have people pos up, and then come back when they out number you 10-1.
Good fights are few and far......the fights you see streamed are not the norm.
not entirely true. When you know the other is controlled by a person and you attack them for the simple purpose of screwing with another person that is a psychological issue.
I would call a "psychological issue" someone attacking you in real life because of what happened in a video game. I know that's happened before but that's not what we are talking about here.
We are talking about a players "character" attacking another players "character" in a video game designed for players characters to attack each other.
No it's not the character that attacks another character. It's the person controlling the character that is doing it to the person controlling the other character.
Just so everybody's on the same page, i'll say it again. I know the discussion is about whether or not sandboxes need to have full loot pvp but i'm not talking about that. I never comment on any thread without reading through all the post beforehand. While I was reading through the comments here I saw words being thrown around such as sociopath, psychopath and murder. Which is probably no big deal because it's the internet but at my job I deal with people that have real psychological issues and I can assure you it's not because they ruined peoples "video game" experience.
I'm not trying to be preachy, I just want to broaden the scope a little bit.
The video Iseline posted was by known Darkfall losers and anybody that has played Darkfall or Unholy wars long enough will tell you that. A similar tactic was done to me at the bank in Red Moon (afk) but they were unsuccessful. With that being said, spawn killing still doesn't mean you need to see a psychiatrist no matter how many people agree with you. Spawn killing just means you're an asshole.
One could go so far as to say it's the unhealthy attachment to these virtual characters could be the reason why people feel so strongly about grief... but that's another thread entirely.
You may want to not put a psychological label on people who are "assholes" to others in game or real life, but there is something wrong with these folks.
You will never convince me its acceptable to take pleasure in preying on the weak or spoiling other players just for the sake of it.
Nor will I accept its just a game or they are just pixels. I play them as virtual worlds and my character is a representation of myself in real life.
I always assume the other person's is pretty much representational of them in real life, outside of the fact real life has controls to force them to mask their abberent behaviors.
TLDR: If you behave as an asshole in a game (or forum for that matter) you are most likely one in real life.
If I ran the world asshole behavior would be soundly and severely punished wherever it was observed.
The US President -Elect would like to have a word with you......
Yeah I've noticed that being an asshole is now considered a good thing in some circles.
I've always thought of the term as just being vernacular shorthand for a whole range of aberrant personality traits.
For the purposes of this particular thread, the video I linked above is an example of a specific type of asshole that gets enjoyment from stalking and harassing other players in a virtual world. The Germans (bless their love of specificity and order) even gave that type of assholeish behavior a name: they call it schadenfreude.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
not entirely true. When you know the other is controlled by a person and you attack them for the simple purpose of screwing with another person that is a psychological issue.
I would call a "psychological issue" someone attacking you in real life because of what happened in a video game. I know that's happened before but that's not what we are talking about here.
We are talking about a players "character" attacking another players "character" in a video game designed for players characters to attack each other.
No it's not the character that attacks another character. It's the person controlling the character that is doing it to the person controlling the other character.
Just so everybody's on the same page, i'll say it again. I know the discussion is about whether or not sandboxes need to have full loot pvp but i'm not talking about that. I never comment on any thread without reading through all the post beforehand. While I was reading through the comments here I saw words being thrown around such as sociopath, psychopath and murder. Which is probably no big deal because it's the internet but at my job I deal with people that have real psychological issues and I can assure you it's not because they ruined peoples "video game" experience.
I'm not trying to be preachy, I just want to broaden the scope a little bit.
The video Iseline posted was by known Darkfall losers and anybody that has played Darkfall or Unholy wars long enough will tell you that. A similar tactic was done to me at the bank in Red Moon (afk) but they were unsuccessful. With that being said, spawn killing still doesn't mean you need to see a psychiatrist no matter how many people agree with you. Spawn killing just means you're an asshole.
One could go so far as to say it's the unhealthy attachment to these virtual characters could be the reason why people feel so strongly about grief... but that's another thread entirely.
You may want to not put a psychological label on people who are "assholes" to others in game or real life, but there is something wrong with these folks.
You will never convince me its acceptable to take pleasure in preying on the weak or spoiling other players just for the sake of it.
Nor will I accept its just a game or they are just pixels. I play them as virtual worlds and my character is a representation of myself in real life.
I always assume the other person's is pretty much representational of them in real life, outside of the fact real life has controls to force them to mask their abberent behaviors.
TLDR: If you behave as an asshole in a game (or forum for that matter) you are most likely one in real life.
If I ran the world asshole behavior would be soundly and severely punished wherever it was observed.
The US President -Elect would like to have a word with you......
Yeah I've noticed that being an asshole is now considered a good thing in some circles.
I've always thought of the term as just being vernacular shorthand for a whole range of aberrant personality traits.
For the purposes of this particular thread, the video I linked above is an example of a specific type of asshole that gets enjoyment from stalking and harassing other players in a virtual world. The Germans (bless their love of specificity and order) even gave that type of assholeish behavior a name: they call it schadenfreude.
So if you agree to join a PVP centric MMO and you get stalked for pvp it makes the other guy an Ahole.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
not entirely true. When you know the other is controlled by a person and you attack them for the simple purpose of screwing with another person that is a psychological issue.
I would call a "psychological issue" someone attacking you in real life because of what happened in a video game. I know that's happened before but that's not what we are talking about here.
We are talking about a players "character" attacking another players "character" in a video game designed for players characters to attack each other.
No it's not the character that attacks another character. It's the person controlling the character that is doing it to the person controlling the other character.
Just so everybody's on the same page, i'll say it again. I know the discussion is about whether or not sandboxes need to have full loot pvp but i'm not talking about that. I never comment on any thread without reading through all the post beforehand. While I was reading through the comments here I saw words being thrown around such as sociopath, psychopath and murder. Which is probably no big deal because it's the internet but at my job I deal with people that have real psychological issues and I can assure you it's not because they ruined peoples "video game" experience.
I'm not trying to be preachy, I just want to broaden the scope a little bit.
The video Iseline posted was by known Darkfall losers and anybody that has played Darkfall or Unholy wars long enough will tell you that. A similar tactic was done to me at the bank in Red Moon (afk) but they were unsuccessful. With that being said, spawn killing still doesn't mean you need to see a psychiatrist no matter how many people agree with you. Spawn killing just means you're an asshole.
One could go so far as to say it's the unhealthy attachment to these virtual characters could be the reason why people feel so strongly about grief... but that's another thread entirely.
You may want to not put a psychological label on people who are "assholes" to others in game or real life, but there is something wrong with these folks.
You will never convince me its acceptable to take pleasure in preying on the weak or spoiling other players just for the sake of it.
Nor will I accept its just a game or they are just pixels. I play them as virtual worlds and my character is a representation of myself in real life.
I always assume the other person's is pretty much representational of them in real life, outside of the fact real life has controls to force them to mask their abberent behaviors.
TLDR: If you behave as an asshole in a game (or forum for that matter) you are most likely one in real life.
If I ran the world asshole behavior would be soundly and severely punished wherever it was observed.
The US President -Elect would like to have a word with you......
Yeah I've noticed that being an asshole is now considered a good thing in some circles.
I've always thought of the term as just being vernacular shorthand for a whole range of aberrant personality traits.
For the purposes of this particular thread, the video I linked above is an example of a specific type of asshole that gets enjoyment from stalking and harassing other players in a virtual world. The Germans (bless their love of specificity and order) even gave that type of assholeish behavior a name: they call it schadenfreude.
So if you agree to join a PVP centric MMO and you get stalked for pvp it makes the other guy an Ahole.
The first time he kills you and knows you cant fight back....no When they repeatedly do it over and over.....yes And that is why NA pvp fails so much.
A "sandbox" is about freedom. Therefore, players should have the freedom to kill other players (and loot them because risk v reward).
A Sandbox is about freedom so players are free to behave like dicks. It make perfect sense.......
People that talk about freedom are so full of it. What about the freedom of the other player not wanting to be ganked and just explore or quest. Freedom is always about what the ganker wants in these post. Thats why these types of game fail and are just niche.
not entirely true. When you know the other is controlled by a person and you attack them for the simple purpose of screwing with another person that is a psychological issue.
I would call a "psychological issue" someone attacking you in real life because of what happened in a video game. I know that's happened before but that's not what we are talking about here.
We are talking about a players "character" attacking another players "character" in a video game designed for players characters to attack each other.
No it's not the character that attacks another character. It's the person controlling the character that is doing it to the person controlling the other character.
Just so everybody's on the same page, i'll say it again. I know the discussion is about whether or not sandboxes need to have full loot pvp but i'm not talking about that. I never comment on any thread without reading through all the post beforehand. While I was reading through the comments here I saw words being thrown around such as sociopath, psychopath and murder. Which is probably no big deal because it's the internet but at my job I deal with people that have real psychological issues and I can assure you it's not because they ruined peoples "video game" experience.
I'm not trying to be preachy, I just want to broaden the scope a little bit.
The video Iseline posted was by known Darkfall losers and anybody that has played Darkfall or Unholy wars long enough will tell you that. A similar tactic was done to me at the bank in Red Moon (afk) but they were unsuccessful. With that being said, spawn killing still doesn't mean you need to see a psychiatrist no matter how many people agree with you. Spawn killing just means you're an asshole.
One could go so far as to say it's the unhealthy attachment to these virtual characters could be the reason why people feel so strongly about grief... but that's another thread entirely.
You may want to not put a psychological label on people who are "assholes" to others in game or real life, but there is something wrong with these folks.
You will never convince me its acceptable to take pleasure in preying on the weak or spoiling other players just for the sake of it.
Nor will I accept its just a game or they are just pixels. I play them as virtual worlds and my character is a representation of myself in real life.
I always assume the other person's is pretty much representational of them in real life, outside of the fact real life has controls to force them to mask their abberent behaviors.
TLDR: If you behave as an asshole in a game (or forum for that matter) you are most likely one in real life.
If I ran the world asshole behavior would be soundly and severely punished wherever it was observed.
The US President -Elect would like to have a word with you......
Yeah I've noticed that being an asshole is now considered a good thing in some circles.
I've always thought of the term as just being vernacular shorthand for a whole range of aberrant personality traits.
For the purposes of this particular thread, the video I linked above is an example of a specific type of asshole that gets enjoyment from stalking and harassing other players in a virtual world. The Germans (bless their love of specificity and order) even gave that type of assholeish behavior a name: they call it schadenfreude.
So if you agree to join a PVP centric MMO and you get stalked for pvp it makes the other guy an Ahole.
Dude... I PVP all the time in all games. I love PVP. But what you saw in that video is not the typical PVPer. That was an asshole being an asshole.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
If a company creates a full loot PvP centric sandbox MMO. They have just eliminated the vast majority of their possible player base. The majority of gamers don't want to work their butts off just to be ganked and loss all the hours of hard work they put in. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.
So, why would a company that wants to make any form of income even consider creating that sort of game? They wouldn't! That's why we don't have any "real" AAA sandbox MMO's with these mechanics.
Hell, Ultima Online is considered one of the best (if not the best) sandbox games ever created and they figured this out fairly quickly. If UO would have never created Trammel I can almost guarantee that it wouldn't be around now.
I just find it funny that this topic pops put ever few months.
not entirely true. When you know the other is controlled by a person and you attack them for the simple purpose of screwing with another person that is a psychological issue.
I would call a "psychological issue" someone attacking you in real life because of what happened in a video game. I know that's happened before but that's not what we are talking about here.
We are talking about a players "character" attacking another players "character" in a video game designed for players characters to attack each other.
No it's not the character that attacks another character. It's the person controlling the character that is doing it to the person controlling the other character.
Just so everybody's on the same page, i'll say it again. I know the discussion is about whether or not sandboxes need to have full loot pvp but i'm not talking about that. I never comment on any thread without reading through all the post beforehand. While I was reading through the comments here I saw words being thrown around such as sociopath, psychopath and murder. Which is probably no big deal because it's the internet but at my job I deal with people that have real psychological issues and I can assure you it's not because they ruined peoples "video game" experience.
I'm not trying to be preachy, I just want to broaden the scope a little bit.
The video Iseline posted was by known Darkfall losers and anybody that has played Darkfall or Unholy wars long enough will tell you that. A similar tactic was done to me at the bank in Red Moon (afk) but they were unsuccessful. With that being said, spawn killing still doesn't mean you need to see a psychiatrist no matter how many people agree with you. Spawn killing just means you're an asshole.
One could go so far as to say it's the unhealthy attachment to these virtual characters could be the reason why people feel so strongly about grief... but that's another thread entirely.
You may want to not put a psychological label on people who are "assholes" to others in game or real life, but there is something wrong with these folks.
You will never convince me its acceptable to take pleasure in preying on the weak or spoiling other players just for the sake of it.
Nor will I accept its just a game or they are just pixels. I play them as virtual worlds and my character is a representation of myself in real life.
I always assume the other person's is pretty much representational of them in real life, outside of the fact real life has controls to force them to mask their abberent behaviors.
TLDR: If you behave as an asshole in a game (or forum for that matter) you are most likely one in real life.
If I ran the world asshole behavior would be soundly and severely punished wherever it was observed.
Not once in this discussion has someone said it's acceptable to grief.
You've made the personal choice to make your virtual character a representation of yourself and that's good for you Kaleran however, you shouldn't assume that other people have done the same. Personally I don't subscribe to anyone's online virtual character because 1.) it's the internet where people can be whatever they want and 2.) it's harder to be deceived this way. To put it simply, I don't know you until I know you.
Comments
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
You are talking about what, General Zod. He is talking about why. Yes, we all agree that players kill other players in a PVP game and that's what they are made for. Let's move the conversation forward. Join us in talking about the WHY.
The OP asks WHY do some need it to feel free.
Horusra's post isn't saying there is a psychological issue with killing another player rather an issue with WHY it is done in some cases.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
In that case there should be zones that are guarded, and in the spirit of ffaowpvp, even the guards can be attacked, but of course the guards are extremely tough.
Then you have more riskky but more rewarding zones which allows players from the get go to go if they want to.
So to make a guard system work it needs smart AI and a real world with npc armies and politics that is a sand box for players to participate in.
Sand box also means building things, so building empires, alliances, and trade all in the open.
If you also allow for players to become powerful then they can hold their own much better, and if you also allow for server resets then you allow foe new players a more even footing to amass wealth.
So imo for ffaowpvp it needs;
1. Guards, and good AI, and npc politics/armies
2. Server resets for conquest mode
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
In a pve-centric game with optional pvp, I can envision some kind of factional warzone. You can farm safely in "empire space" but if you want to go out into more dangerous and known pvp areas, you have to consent to getting ganked. Or you can pay people to go there and get mats for you.
Some people do enjoy trading and building up a financial empire. But there have to be things worth buying. Also, how cash shops can affect an economy is another matter.
There were people who played SWG just to dance in the cantina, craft ect. There were some crafters that started huge business enterprises with chain malls of their goods all over the universe. They would send update emails on sales ect. All their goods had their names on them and most times you referred to that as a mark of the highest quality. This was one of the coolest things I've seen in an MMO in a long time and one I doubt I will see again. There are plenty of those players out there just waiting for another game.
But it is also true that PvP Sandboxes could be viable too if developers would put some serious thoughts in it, instead of using the freedom the Sandbox offers as an excuse for their poor design and code skills.
Yes that's what puzzles me.
In EvE 50 % of player are Spread Sheets Warriors, even in Darkfall a huge amount of players spent an awful amount of time crafting shit.
This people, even if they focus on crafting, like to PvP too, they just don't want to do it 24/7 like a small minority that thinks that a MMO PvP should be a glorified Battlefield Online.
Yet most of PvP game design are made to scare this kind of players off (the Prey), which means that the Hunters have nothing to hunt and get bored.
But Developers seem like they never learn.
I know the discussion is about whether or not sandboxes need to have full loot pvp but i'm not talking about that. I never comment on any thread without reading through all the post beforehand. While I was reading through the comments here I saw words being thrown around such as sociopath, psychopath and murder. Which is probably no big deal because it's the internet but at my job I deal with people that have real psychological issues and I can assure you it's not because they ruined peoples "video game" experience.
I'm not trying to be preachy, I just want to broaden the scope a little bit.
The video Iseline posted was by known Darkfall losers and anybody that has played Darkfall or Unholy wars long enough will tell you that. A similar tactic was done to me at the bank in Red Moon (afk) but they were unsuccessful. With that being said, spawn killing still doesn't mean you need to see a psychiatrist no matter how many people agree with you. Spawn killing just means you're an asshole.
One could go so far as to say it's the unhealthy attachment to these virtual characters could be the reason why people feel so strongly about grief... but that's another thread entirely.
Then the ones that try and promise it go off rails with OWPVP which is blah. Really the flagging system works for those that want to be "risk takers" with having people able to jump them. Honestly people (particularly devs) don't seem to get the point that the flagging system allows for all gameplay types on a single server without there being sociopathic like behavior.
Devs given out the tools to create their own world..
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
You will never convince me its acceptable to take pleasure in preying on the weak or spoiling other players just for the sake of it.
Nor will I accept its just a game or they are just pixels. I play them as virtual worlds and my character is a representation of myself in real life.
I always assume the other person's is pretty much representational of them in real life, outside of the fact real life has controls to force them to mask their abberent behaviors.
TLDR: If you behave as an asshole in a game (or forum for that matter) you are most likely one in real life.
If I ran the world asshole behavior would be soundly and severely punished wherever it was observed.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Kinda like WoW.
PVE fights without any risk of losing anything.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
The US President -Elect would like to have a word with you......
PVP is an essential element of the market cycle.
However, like you stated, EVE has been successful in sort-of corralling the PVP'ers into some areas. Other areas have allowed the crafters to flourish. This separation, while not 100% effective (and I don't think it should ever be 100%) is what allows the entire economic cycle of creation and destruction to work.
Eve's pvp is candy coated.
Most of the time is jumping from gate to gate only to have people pos up, and then come back when they out number you 10-1.
Good fights are few and far......the fights you see streamed are not the norm.
I've always thought of the term as just being vernacular shorthand for a whole range of aberrant personality traits.
For the purposes of this particular thread, the video I linked above is an example of a specific type of asshole that gets enjoyment from stalking and harassing other players in a virtual world. The Germans (bless their love of specificity and order) even gave that type of assholeish behavior a name: they call it schadenfreude.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
When they repeatedly do it over and over.....yes
And that is why NA pvp fails so much.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
So, why would a company that wants to make any form of income even consider creating that sort of game? They wouldn't! That's why we don't have any "real" AAA sandbox MMO's with these mechanics.
Hell, Ultima Online is considered one of the best (if not the best) sandbox games ever created and they figured this out fairly quickly. If UO would have never created Trammel I can almost guarantee that it wouldn't be around now.
I just find it funny that this topic pops put ever few months.
You've made the personal choice to make your virtual character a representation of yourself and that's good for you Kaleran however, you shouldn't assume that other people have done the same. Personally I don't subscribe to anyone's online virtual character because 1.) it's the internet where people can be whatever they want and 2.) it's harder to be deceived this way. To put it simply, I don't know you until I know you.
But we can just agree to disagree...