I remember Verant...

tegweien

I remember being scared to death of my first orc encounter in Faydark, I remember what EQ really was, I have high hopes and expectations. I wish you well in this endeavor, good luck folks and looking forward to more.


     Tegweien Ironwood/IIadwen Draconisvenator

Hrimnir

Let's just hope that we don't see the return of The Vision™.

Dullahan

Something tells me The Vision™ is still alive and well.

delete5230

Hrimnir said:

Let's just hope that we don't see the return of The Vision™.

delete

delete5230

tegweien said:

I remember being scared to death of my first orc encounter in Faydark, I remember what EQ really was, I have high hopes and expectations. I wish you well in this endeavor, good luck folks and looking forward to more.


     Tegweien Ironwood/IIadwen Draconisvenator

I want to be scared again, it's been so many years.  I want very hard tactical battles, Dark Souls style !

Theocritus

I think the fantasy of what EQ was back then is greater than the reality of what this game will be.....Taking EQ as an example, many of the players that have left never returned, even after it went f2p and they could play their old characters again....I had 2 guilds with over 100 toons in each and I was the only one that ever checked back in......I think this will definitely be a niche game......While the nostalgia for this kind of game is great, I dont see  people willing to pay much for it

flizzer

DMKano said:

tegweien said:

I remember being scared to death of my first orc encounter in Faydark, I remember what EQ really was, I have high hopes and expectations. I wish you well in this endeavor, good luck folks and looking forward to more.


     Tegweien Ironwood/IIadwen Draconisvenator

Being scared  of mobs has a lot more to do with "first MMORPG" experience than anything else.

Sure EQ1 had real bite to its death mechanic and it had high level mobs mixed in with lower level mobs (shadowmen camps in starting zones were always fun) - but you won't feel the same in Pantheon.

In Pantheon they can do the same thing and I doubt that you'll be "scared" - you'll probably be like - oh those guys there are too high level for me, so just avoid until later.

Recapturing the same potency of "feelings" evoked by the first MMORPGs is impossible.

Nostalgia is powerful but rarely recaptured. 

SirLorn

The nostalgia is great, totally agree......here is the thing I think that needs to be focused on, VG had SOOOO much potential (Yes, I leaped forward in time stay wif meh) and one thing you don't find talked about is the bridge that almost was, IE what Brad has failed to do, ever, is bridge that gap of a sandbox dynamic and implementing a PvP mechanic into his world, successfully.   PvP in VG was an after thought, and like the rest of it poorly implemented and rushed, BUT OMG had SO much potential, alot of us loved it still, regardless of said issues.....  and it looks like he is about to make the same mistake(s) heh, not to bash anyone, but a few of his team have a history of being just about the PvE.    

You can't dev an open world game, and want the player to be 'immersed' in a sandbox, and have "arenas" as your only point of conflict......I want those hard engaging big targets too, but I will never go back to not having another human added into the equation that is competition, and I don't mean ninja looters \m/

Krimzin

The biggest thing I think Pantheon is going to bring back is the Group Centric style of play. In EQ, you had to have a group no matter what you did unless you were a kiting class. You really got to know people on your server, the good and the bad. It made reputation a big part of the game. With Pantheon not allowing name changes, reputation will once again matter. Its going to be a long 2017 waiting but atleast we know it is coming.

kjempff

SirLorn said:

The nostalgia is great, totally agree......here is the thing I think that needs to be focused on, VG had SOOOO much potential (Yes, I leaped forward in time stay wif meh) and one thing you don't find talked about is the bridge that almost was, IE what Brad has failed to do, ever, is bridge that gap of a sandbox dynamic and implementing a PvP mechanic into his world, successfully.   PvP in VG was an after thought, and like the rest of it poorly implemented and rushed, BUT OMG had SO much potential, alot of us loved it still, regardless of said issues.....  and it looks like he is about to make the same mistake(s) heh, not to bash anyone, but a few of his team have a history of being just about the PvE.    

You can't dev an open world game, and want the player to be 'immersed' in a sandbox, and have "arenas" as your only point of conflict......I want those hard engaging big targets too, but I will never go back to not having another human added into the equation that is competition, and I don't mean ninja looters \m/

There are a gazillion pvp mmos on their way, I don't see why Pantheon should go down that path as well. Trying to compete on pvp with all the other high-quality pvp mmos sound like a bad idea.
Also considering there are many homeless pve players who are sick of the on-rails story driven mmos and just sitting in wait for a decent pve mmo, even if Pantheon doesn't fit right into everyone's expectations, it might still just be he best alternative for those players.

I believe the lessen over the last decade is to do one thing well instead of trying to please everyone's taste.

Krimzin

@DMKano  Have you watched any of the streams? With a group of 6 they were still struggling at times, even at lower levels. B. McQuaid made it point over and over that the game is going to be built around grouping. 
I dont think you will see much solo play, things like CC and mobs fleeing will make that hard to do.
Which to be honest, Im fine with I think group play is so much better than solo play.

gervaise1

DMKano said:

Krimzin said:

The biggest thing I think Pantheon is going to bring back is the Group Centric style of play. In EQ, you had to have a group no matter what you did unless you were a kiting class. You really got to know people on your server, the good and the bad. It made reputation a big part of the game. With Pantheon not allowing name changes, reputation will once again matter. Its going to be a long 2017 waiting but atleast we know it is coming.

The thing is there were quite a few classes that could solo fine:

Druids, Shamans, Bards, Necros, Mages - later game Wizards and Chanters, also Rangers, SKs and Pallies
<snip>

Original 'chanters could solo fine as well. The reputation that they couldn't was a myth. Solo was a restful change from grouping - which required a lot of effort to keep up a full range of buffs - on the party and pets - and throw out mez. A level of effort that might not go down well today.

I suppose monks could solo as well but I found the class boring.

Dullahan

SirLorn said:

The nostalgia is great, totally agree......here is the thing I think that needs to be focused on, VG had SOOOO much potential (Yes, I leaped forward in time stay wif meh) and one thing you don't find talked about is the bridge that almost was, IE what Brad has failed to do, ever, is bridge that gap of a sandbox dynamic and implementing a PvP mechanic into his world, successfully.   PvP in VG was an after thought, and like the rest of it poorly implemented and rushed, BUT OMG had SO much potential, alot of us loved it still, regardless of said issues.....  and it looks like he is about to make the same mistake(s) heh, not to bash anyone, but a few of his team have a history of being just about the PvE.    

You can't dev an open world game, and want the player to be 'immersed' in a sandbox, and have "arenas" as your only point of conflict......I want those hard engaging big targets too, but I will never go back to not having another human added into the equation that is competition, and I don't mean ninja looters \m/

EQ had great PvP. Vanguard PvP was poor because the class balance in PvE itself was poor.

If the PvE works, other than tweaking damage formulas, PvP will work fine. This idea that you have to go to extremes to make PvP work is a fallacy born out of the desire to balance classes against each other. The game should have group based combat, and that means some classes will fare better solo than others.

flizzer

I might disagree with DMKano about how great Trion is as a company but he is spot on with his comments in here. 

Dullahan

Moving away from traditional MMO and towards mainstream only helps make money in the short term. The earmark of mainstream games is their inability to retain players. To add the kind of accessibility necessary to draw those players will only hurt the games longevity and profits after the first quarter.

SirLorn

kjempff said:

SirLorn said:

The nostalgia is great, totally agree......here is the thing I think that needs to be focused on, VG had SOOOO much potential (Yes, I leaped forward in time stay wif meh) and one thing you don't find talked about is the bridge that almost was, IE what Brad has failed to do, ever, is bridge that gap of a sandbox dynamic and implementing a PvP mechanic into his world, successfully.   PvP in VG was an after thought, and like the rest of it poorly implemented and rushed, BUT OMG had SO much potential, alot of us loved it still, regardless of said issues.....  and it looks like he is about to make the same mistake(s) heh, not to bash anyone, but a few of his team have a history of being just about the PvE.    

You can't dev an open world game, and want the player to be 'immersed' in a sandbox, and have "arenas" as your only point of conflict......I want those hard engaging big targets too, but I will never go back to not having another human added into the equation that is competition, and I don't mean ninja looters \m/

There are a gazillion pvp mmos on their way, I don't see why Pantheon should go down that path as well. Trying to compete on pvp with all the other high-quality pvp mmos sound like a bad idea.
Also considering there are many homeless pve players who are sick of the on-rails story driven mmos and just sitting in wait for a decent pve mmo, even if Pantheon doesn't fit right into everyone's expectations, it might still just be he best alternative for those players.

I believe the lessen over the last decade is to do one thing well instead of trying to please everyone's taste.

You and Dullahan, are missing my point I think.......first off EQ had dueling, plain and simple, and hints of true PvP, VG had PvE content that could be contested, and if you do not think this adds a dynamic and value expanding beyond tactical end game, engaging content, then you aren't gonna get it

SirLorn

I also wanna say that the only reason you have so many, what we kind of bullyish call PvErs 'carebear' players is for the same reason there's even a term carebear, MOST of them aren't that good at PvP, and no one has ever taken the time to try and show them, or focus on someones strengths that they bring to the table, like the guys and gals that love love love crafting and trade, and would wanna do it all day every day......

  Devs are limited in actuality with providing immersion because of the way the community(s) mindsets are, or have developed into.....   if you are not following.......in PirateLords in VG, for example,  we valued everyone we had playing and it was a diverse group which fundamentally came from diff genres of gaming, we had hardcore PvPers, and carebears, /GASP coexisting and thriving, and it was because we supported each other, and focused on the strengths and helped with the weaknesses, to improve our new found friends gaming experiences moving forward....... you don't find a lot of that these days, you wanna be in a top tier guild, best bring above your A game, and welcome to your 2nd job!   So for years it has been amusing and painful AF to watch the path to where we are at now.....................   Until a studio is truly able to provide a title that appeals to ALL player types, you aren't going to reclaim "that loving feeling" OR the communities could stop being so GD clique centric and wanting THEIR needs pandered too, only

cheyane

If I see PvP I look for a way to avoid it so I'm glad they are not doing anything like what you're proposing.

Wizardry

Term "trash mobs" can be misleading.

In most games like a Wow and it's clones,that means blindfolded crappy mobs,no idea why you even need a group for that.Even still if the combat is tweaked so well,it can still offer a great deal of challenge.

I do not believe in superficial challenge like having what SOE was famous for  which was 3/4/5/6/7/8/9 mobs all attacking you at once and often appearing to all be one a rope tied together.
Yeah people don't like when i keep mentioning FFXI,but guess what,it does it BETTER and makes sense rather than something that looks fake/unrealistic.
Timers:this is another area that brings combat into the forefront and MOST devs have no clue ,all i ever see is 1-2 sec timers.

This whole discussion on combat and grouping,it is a topic that would take pages to describe on how to do it properly no matter what type of design you are aiming for.IO have seen and played them all,so it takes me like 10 seconds upon my first encounter to know if a game has crappy system designers,or they know how to create a solid in depth system.

i will mention one area where SOE/Brad/Smedley and whomever else was working on systems "failed badly".
FOOD:OOC<<< lmao,now how on earth did ANYONE decide that the food would ONLY work OOC and that would appear realistic?Ideas like that make zero sense and it bothers me when i see it in system designs.You know why in SOME games we had to REST or kneel down to recover,because it MAKES SENSE lol.Now i could go one step further,sure you could slowly recover standing and even less if running but it should be a lot faster if actually resting.

carotid

DMKano said:

tegweien said:

I remember being scared to death of my first orc encounter in Faydark, I remember what EQ really was, I have high hopes and expectations. I wish you well in this endeavor, good luck folks and looking forward to more.


     Tegweien Ironwood/IIadwen Draconisvenator

Being scared  of mobs has a lot more to do with "first MMORPG" experience than anything else.

Sure EQ1 had real bite to its death mechanic and it had high level mobs mixed in with lower level mobs (shadowmen camps in starting zones were always fun) - but you won't feel the same in Pantheon.

If they put in roaming high level mobs...

carotid

DMKano said:

Krimzin said:

@DMKano  Have you watched any of the streams? With a group of 6 they were still struggling at times, even at lower levels. B. McQuaid made it point over and over that the game is going to be built around grouping. 
I dont think you will see much solo play, things like CC and mobs fleeing will make that hard to do.
Which to be honest, Im fine with I think group play is so much better than solo play.

I've seen all the streams.

Mark my words - if Pantheon ever sees a launch day - it will be as soloable as vanilla EQ1

But that would be ok as long as it's not like MMOs of today. Certain classes should stand out.

Azmodeus

tegweien said:

I remember being scared to death of my first orc encounter in Faydark, I remember what EQ really was, I have high hopes and expectations. I wish you well in this endeavor, good luck folks and looking forward to more.


     Tegweien Ironwood/IIadwen Draconisvenator

I remember the same thing!  Being a wizard pre snare,  and a root that would randomly break any mob would scare the hell out of me.  The scared feeling I believe was due to two reasons: 
1, It was probably your first MMO experience, and 2 you did not want to die!  I hope Pantheon at least brings the I don't want to die feeling back, and that alone would promote better play out of people.

fs23otm

SirLorn said:

 IE what Brad has failed to do, ever, is bridge that gap of a sandbox dynamic and implementing a PvP mechanic into his world, successfully.  

 Sandbox does not equal PVP.... people need to get that lesson down. 

Brad's games have never been about PVP, even though you could play on a PVP ruleset server, the games were never designed, nor will ever be, around PVP. 

This is a good thing, as there is a large segment that does not want PVP at all. Brad needs to focus on what he and his team does well, which is not PVP. 

SirLorn

I totally disagree, Sandbox does equal PvP, if you want to have immersion, you know because nothing defines immersion as free will on rails ....come on man, the gent earlier said it best, if I see PvP I steer clear of it, why though?!  Brad and his team could, is what I was on about COULD bridge that gap, and should IMHO!    It is funny, because, it is VG that made me realize my 'main' MMO moving forward would never NOT be PvP centric......you can only beat an AI so many times before it gets old hat.....add in the human element as a additional point of contention, and you add diverse, fresh possibilities, and longevity to your title.  

Kyleran

Krimzin said:

The biggest thing I think Pantheon is going to bring back is the Group Centric style of play. In EQ, you had to have a group no matter what you did unless you were a kiting class. You really got to know people on your server, the good and the bad. It made reputation a big part of the game. With Pantheon not allowing name changes, reputation will once again matter. Its going to be a long 2017 waiting but atleast we know it is coming.

I disagree, while back in the day reputation mattered so you could find good people to group with, uncaring asshats will like have no problem finding plenty of kindred spirits to hang with.

After all, they greatly outnumber the rest of us.

fs23otm

SirLorn said:

I totally disagree, Sandbox does equal PvP, if you want to have immersion, you know because nothing defines immersion as free will on rails ....come on man, the gent earlier said it best, if I see PvP I steer clear of it, why though?!  Brad and his team could, is what I was on about COULD bridge that gap, and should IMHO!    It is funny, because, it is VG that made me realize my 'main' MMO moving forward would never NOT be PvP centric......you can only beat an AI so many times before it gets old hat.....add in the human element as a additional point of contention, and you add diverse, fresh possibilities, and longevity to your title.  

See there is your problem, and the problem with people who think sandbox requires PVP. You don't have to "beat" anything.

Social engagments, while doing something that requires cooperation, on a persistent server with thousands of players is what defines an MMO. Sandbox means doing the above without directions on how to accomplish it. 

While PVP fits into that definition, it's definition is not encompassed by it. Thus having a sandbox MMO, where the inhabitants work together to overcome the obstacles of the AI, all the while establishing social bonds needed to have a thriving community. 

PVP geared sandboxes do exist, and work well for the audience they target. However, my point was sandboxes do exist that are not PVP based, and they also work well for their audiences. 

I stand by my point that Sandbox does not equal PVP. 

As a side thought, I would love to see some innovations in the PVP area. Why does PVP have to be defined by Player A kills Player B.

Can PVP not also be, ladders, rankings, leaderboards where it does not involve direct players killing players?