A much better question would be - can they handle it for any more than 2-6 weeks before moving on?
The answer is NO.
3 hours for a dungeons - you could watch a netflix movie, play a couple of rounds of Overwatch, and still have time for Facebook/Twitter/Instagram etc....
Being glued to a single game for 3 hours, very few people have that type of patience to do this for a week, let alone for months.
That ship has sailed, might want to see how younger generation spends their free time today
That's the funny thing, tho: Everyone I asked who said that also usually spend the entire day playing games such as mobas where a single match requires less time than playing a mmorpg with "endless" content and time requirements.
So instead of playing a mmorpg for, lets say, 4 hours, they spend the entire sunday playing 40-or-so minutes of LoL or Dota matches.
I'm pretty sure has nothing to do with time consumption but with instant reward and the amount of time put on it to get it.
So I don't think they are speaking the truth, I think they are full of shit, actually - and making excuses for they lame ass behavior.
They just enjoy competitive gameplay more than they enjoy fighting monsters handled by poor AI. Beating other players in tight PvP matches is far more rewarding than typical mmorpg dungeons.
Thats because none of them were alive when the games that had challenging dungeons/raids were being played....They came in at WoW or later and never really learned what the genre was about.
If we only had rotary phones wired to the wall we would use rotary phones. But given the choice I'm pretty sure even old-timers would opt for smartphones. Kids wouldn't touch rotary with a 10 foot pole except maybe at a science and technology museum.
Because these Youtube generation know-it-all Millenium generation kiddies wouldn't know how to use it.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Its not about age and I wish people would always stop talking about "the kids". Devs catered dungeons for people that have no desire to socialize or work together and to avoid the potential for dungeon drama in PUG they made them a lot shorter.
The newer generation are most likely playing survival sandboxes instead of mmorpg.
Most are playing whatever Blizzard tells them to play....
Entirely depends on how it's packaged, the overall experience is a lot more important than a one off dungeon run. IF it looks and feels like a game their grandparents would have played. it's doubtful, if it feels fresh, well, that's a different story.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If we only had rotary phones wired to the wall we would use rotary phones. But given the choice I'm pretty sure even old-timers would opt for smartphones. Kids wouldn't touch rotary with a 10 foot pole except maybe at a science and technology museum.
Except in your example its the modern day MMORPG which is the rotary phone.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If done in a way that appealed to them, they would play. At first I thought no they wouldn't but I mostly do PvE games but I have played and enjoyed some open world PvP games on occasion and played them for years, because of the way they were done. So it would be the same for a three hour dungeon crawl. Make it feel rewarding and fun and they will play.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
the newer generation aren't interested in rpg games period. They want short term games to last them a few days (maybe not even more than an hour). That's it.
Every conversation during gameplay is "oh have you seen this game, oh and what about this one, oh and this one".
I never found the PvE leveling in old mmos to be hard. If I want hard I'll PvP.
Same. MMO PvE has always been a means to an end to get to PvP for me. I never really saw the appeal of memorizing mob or boss patterns for a dungeon. Not saying I don't understand it, but I always saw that as the carrot on the stick to keep players playing and paying subs (back when that was a thing). The pattern of doing dungeons/raids for gear in order to do harder dungeons/raids for gear in order to so on and on.... So even back when dungeons were considered "slow" or a "crawler" I couldn't handle, or more like stand them because the encounters just seemed to formulaic and dull.
Maybe one of these days an MMO will let other players play as the mobs and/or boss. Then I would consider it hard and would actually probably go into more dungeons or raids then.
It is not about age. You can't just say everyone at a certain all want the same - some will like a "slow" aka long dungeon crawler with coop, some will not. I believe there are about the same amount of players with that preference as there were 10-20 years ago, which is not many compared to players with other tastes, but still enough to make a few games successful.
And as a side note, hardly any game in the past had 3 hour dungeon crawls, more like 1 hour, but as an example ok it will work.
......It's always the other guy, yet I have yet to meet that other guy asking for easy !
That! I think this site is more popular with the Old guard than the new one, so any results here will be skewed.
I think you are asking 2 questions at once though, so it's hard to answer both at once. I still think a lot of players like hard. My 16 year old son is always on his mobile, his favorite game now is Splatoon, but hew likes hard games where you can't just button mash. He games for hours when he can. I think a lot of gamers like a challenge, but I don't think a lot of them can commit to sitting down for 3 or more hours continuously.
I remember CoH Task Forces, they took up to 12 hours, but not many people can do that anymore. It's the same reason I'm not interested in Golf! Especially when you need a certain mix and number of people.
I don't want to speak for others or overly generalize so I will only state these few things.
I don't think time=difficulty. To many times in MMOs people measure everything in the amount of time that is spent and then place a value on their own preference.
I would personally like to see more PVE content that takes more cooperation in groups. It seems CC debuffing and buffing are thing of the past. It would like to see a game where instead of just tank/DPS/Heal you have Tank/DPS/Heal/Debuf/Buff/CC and each class can do 2 or 3 of them at a time. All most all Buffs in games right now last a very long time and there is no real management of them. Debuffs are usually applied in damaging attacks if at all. CC is overlooked because it is jut burn it all down and speed through.
If you needed more coordination and cooperation fights would take longer. The time could be offset by having less trash or smaller dungeons if time was the real issue.
This is why I don't think it is about time. I am not sure if it is about showing how leet you are by rushing through content. Maybe it is the content does not require it so why have even worry. I really don't know.
I would like to see deeper fights with more mob management and cooperation, even if the dungeon still only took 30 minutes. Having a 2 hour tank and spank is not that much fun either if all of the fights are the same and it is rinse and repeat over and over and over.
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
Some of the dungeons and raids 'back in the old days' were so horribly paced I ended up having sex with my then girlfriend quite often during downtime/slower parts. The worst? She was playing too.....
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I don't think this is something that is limited to the younger generation, but it certainly is more common. This isn't just speculation, either, it's something we're getting more and more evidence on. Here's a fun reason why, although it applies to the generation, specifically, it's easy to see how everyone these days is subject to many of the same issues:
1-3 hours? Shit we used to split the airplane in EQ over 2 days If we were going to clear from first to almost last island.
As to your question, no they wouldn't play it but I don't think its limited to just the newer generation. While I tend to think they are more about instant gratification it isn't limited to just them now. Its just been the norm for so long to join a queue, power run through it, not say a word and then leave to rejoin another queue.....maybe tell the entire group how much they suck cause you wiped once or twice lol.
I don't think this is something that is limited to the younger generation, but it certainly is more common. This isn't just speculation, either, it's something we're getting more and more evidence on. Here's a fun reason why, although it applies to the generation, specifically, it's easy to see how everyone these days is subject to many of the same issues:
I don't think this is something that is limited to the younger generation, but it certainly is more common. This isn't just speculation, either, it's something we're getting more and more evidence on. Here's a fun reason why, although it applies to the generation, specifically, it's easy to see how everyone these days is subject to many of the same issues:
I rather enjoyed that video. Thanks for the link
Yeah, I thought it was funny and actually pretty fantastic, from a Management perspective, too. It doesn't really give you any answers to the HOW part of dealing with this vast unhappiness, but it at least gives you some insight into WHY it's there.
The one negative is that it probably only serves to undermine my position on cash shop RNG loot boxes, but whatever, I'll just switch from "They have a choice to buy them or not...." to "If they're not spending money there then it's just on booze or gambling or some other vice"
The problem is not newer generation or older generation. The problem is that with going mainstream mmorpg's attracted a lot of people that never would have played this genre, and with that they bring changes for better or worse. Mmorpg's have been hijacked and lost its direction.
A good quality built dungeon yes, but imo dungeons are a dumb idea,if they simply fit into the design of the world sure but to create one as an instance to represent the BEST BOSSES,i hate it and think it is dumb,non immersive whatever.
Example EQ...EQ2 ..Wow none of those games create a quality dungeon,which of course is a map.Mapping seems to be a huge problem within fps and rpg games,it seems most are auto generated or just whipped together with some paths and a few rock textures. No i am not going to write another 6 paragraphs explaining how to build a quality dungeon,if devs can't do it,then fire your mappers and layout design people and get real ones.
Even when we see a "decent " made dungeon,we still see hand holding,nothing to really discover unless your blind in one eye and blind can can't see out the other.Games that have sparkles and bright lights and markers should be shot.Put in some hard to find secrets,perhaps fall away floors,hidden walls so much can be done with a dungeon to make it exciting but seems devs want to give us boring crap.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Since everything now is catered to be so easily accessible and quick, it's all about instant gratification else the sky is falling, no way in hell would a large chunk of the newer generation be able to withstand a longer dungeon/dungeon crawl.
I think the generation that came before this newer, instant gratification generation would be able to and in some cases, are dying for something like that. There are some people who still would prefer the quicker, easily accessible stuff which is fine if thats what they prefer, but the older generation would more easily be able to withstand it.
the newer generation aren't interested in rpg games period. They want short term games to last them a few days (maybe not even more than an hour). That's it.
Every conversation during gameplay is "oh have you seen this game, oh and what about this one, oh and this one".
Hmm, 1st four titles my son asked for or bought for his new PS4 Pro were Skyrim, Witcher 3, GTAV, and ESO.
He's 24 and a hardcore LOL fan as well.
Not sure you can generalize all young people don't (or do) care for something.
Didn't I also read/note the top 100 2016 Steam list contains a large number of RPG or RPG like games?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There definitely is a new breed or person let alone gamer. cool story bro..not really but here goes my quickie....
So i decide to get into esport,join the UT99 frackas and get all serious.To put it mildly,.like any noob,i sucked.However rather than flame the game or quit i pushed forward ot learn and get better and it took me a full year to reach the upper echelon.Fast forward and playing Hearthstone i have seen quite often players can't win they instantly quit or out of anger they d/c and make me sit and wait until the game recognizes it ,like 2 minutes later,to get my reward for the win.You see it seems like tons of little spoiled brats,they can't handle a challenge or losing,it is another reaason why pvp will never work now a days.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
A good quality built dungeon yes, but imo dungeons are a dumb idea,if they simply fit into the design of the world sure but to create one as an instance to represent the BEST BOSSES,i hate it and think it is dumb,non immersive whatever.
Example EQ...EQ2 ..Wow none of those games create a quality dungeon,which of course is a map.Mapping seems to be a huge problem within fps and rpg games,it seems most are auto generated or just whipped together with some paths and a few rock textures. No i am not going to write another 6 paragraphs explaining how to build a quality dungeon,if devs can't do it,then fire your mappers and layout design people and get real ones.
Even when we see a "decent " made dungeon,we still see hand holding,nothing to really discover unless your blind in one eye and blind can can't see out the other.Games that have sparkles and bright lights and markers should be shot.Put in some hard to find secrets,perhaps fall away floors,hidden walls so much can be done with a dungeon to make it exciting but seems devs want to give us boring crap.
See above. The whole reason for this transition into "easy mode" game play isn't necessarily due to a lack of innovation or lazy development, it's because people simply don't want hard things. There is a point when the gratification the game was giving them is all of a sudden harder to achieve and, thus, not worthy of their time. So we have already established the the majority of players will not complete any given game. So how do you resolve this issue? Do you give more gratification? Make things easier? Both? Or does it even matter? Either way, the research actually tells us that if you want to keep people engaged, it's more about giving frequent gratification than creating something that's difficult or requires a certain level of patience to solve. That being said, since this is the case I think you're probably in the minority who's feeling like this isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty who will complain about it, but few who would actually partake in it, without whining, when actually presented with something along the lines of what you're describing.
Comments
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Maybe one of these days an MMO will let other players play as the mobs and/or boss. Then I would consider it hard and would actually probably go into more dungeons or raids then.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
And as a side note, hardly any game in the past had 3 hour dungeon crawls, more like 1 hour, but as an example ok it will work.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
I think you are asking 2 questions at once though, so it's hard to answer both at once. I still think a lot of players like hard. My 16 year old son is always on his mobile, his favorite game now is Splatoon, but hew likes hard games where you can't just button mash. He games for hours when he can. I think a lot of gamers like a challenge, but I don't think a lot of them can commit to sitting down for 3 or more hours continuously.
I remember CoH Task Forces, they took up to 12 hours, but not many people can do that anymore. It's the same reason I'm not interested in Golf! Especially when you need a certain mix and number of people.
I don't think time=difficulty. To many times in MMOs people measure everything in the amount of time that is spent and then place a value on their own preference.
I would personally like to see more PVE content that takes more cooperation in groups. It seems CC debuffing and buffing are thing of the past. It would like to see a game where instead of just tank/DPS/Heal you have Tank/DPS/Heal/Debuf/Buff/CC and each class can do 2 or 3 of them at a time. All most all Buffs in games right now last a very long time and there is no real management of them. Debuffs are usually applied in damaging attacks if at all. CC is overlooked because it is jut burn it all down and speed through.
If you needed more coordination and cooperation fights would take longer. The time could be offset by having less trash or smaller dungeons if time was the real issue.
This is why I don't think it is about time. I am not sure if it is about showing how leet you are by rushing through content. Maybe it is the content does not require it so why have even worry. I really don't know.
I would like to see deeper fights with more mob management and cooperation, even if the dungeon still only took 30 minutes. Having a 2 hour tank and spank is not that much fun either if all of the fights are the same and it is rinse and repeat over and over and over.
--John Ruskin
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Time isn't a skill.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
As to your question, no they wouldn't play it but I don't think its limited to just the newer generation. While I tend to think they are more about instant gratification it isn't limited to just them now. Its just been the norm for so long to join a queue, power run through it, not say a word and then leave to rejoin another queue.....maybe tell the entire group how much they suck cause you wiped once or twice lol.
I rather enjoyed that video. Thanks for the link
Yeah, I thought it was funny and actually pretty fantastic, from a Management perspective, too. It doesn't really give you any answers to the HOW part of dealing with this vast unhappiness, but it at least gives you some insight into WHY it's there.
The one negative is that it probably only serves to undermine my position on cash shop RNG loot boxes, but whatever, I'll just switch from "They have a choice to buy them or not...." to "If they're not spending money there then it's just on booze or gambling or some other vice"
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Example EQ...EQ2 ..Wow none of those games create a quality dungeon,which of course is a map.Mapping seems to be a huge problem within fps and rpg games,it seems most are auto generated or just whipped together with some paths and a few rock textures.
No i am not going to write another 6 paragraphs explaining how to build a quality dungeon,if devs can't do it,then fire your mappers and layout design people and get real ones.
Even when we see a "decent " made dungeon,we still see hand holding,nothing to really discover unless your blind in one eye and blind can can't see out the other.Games that have sparkles and bright lights and markers should be shot.Put in some hard to find secrets,perhaps fall away floors,hidden walls so much can be done with a dungeon to make it exciting but seems devs want to give us boring crap.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Since everything now is catered to be so easily accessible and quick, it's all about instant gratification else the sky is falling, no way in hell would a large chunk of the newer generation be able to withstand a longer dungeon/dungeon crawl.
I think the generation that came before this newer, instant gratification generation would be able to and in some cases, are dying for something like that. There are some people who still would prefer the quicker, easily accessible stuff which is fine if thats what they prefer, but the older generation would more easily be able to withstand it.
He's 24 and a hardcore LOL fan as well.
Not sure you can generalize all young people don't (or do) care for something.
Didn't I also read/note the top 100 2016 Steam list contains a large number of RPG or RPG like games?
Can't just be all "old guys" buying these games.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
cool story bro..not really but here goes my quickie....
So i decide to get into esport,join the UT99 frackas and get all serious.To put it mildly,.like any noob,i sucked.However rather than flame the game or quit i pushed forward ot learn and get better and it took me a full year to reach the upper echelon.Fast forward and playing Hearthstone i have seen quite often players can't win they instantly quit or out of anger they d/c and make me sit and wait until the game recognizes it ,like 2 minutes later,to get my reward for the win.You see it seems like tons of little spoiled brats,they can't handle a challenge or losing,it is another reaason why pvp will never work now a days.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
See above. The whole reason for this transition into "easy mode" game play isn't necessarily due to a lack of innovation or lazy development, it's because people simply don't want hard things. There is a point when the gratification the game was giving them is all of a sudden harder to achieve and, thus, not worthy of their time. So we have already established the the majority of players will not complete any given game. So how do you resolve this issue? Do you give more gratification? Make things easier? Both? Or does it even matter? Either way, the research actually tells us that if you want to keep people engaged, it's more about giving frequent gratification than creating something that's difficult or requires a certain level of patience to solve. That being said, since this is the case I think you're probably in the minority who's feeling like this isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty who will complain about it, but few who would actually partake in it, without whining, when actually presented with something along the lines of what you're describing.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------