Apparently MOBAs are in an even bigger position to provide a game that groupers enjoy so no mmorpgs aren't in a unique position to satisfy that requirement. Any team based competitive game is in that position as well and some genres do it so much better in that regard than mmorpgs.
So this argument really comes down to the idea that some people feel everyone should interact on their terms in their way. Just like it didn't end up working back then that won't work now.
Actually you are correct IMO as I play LoL a ton (Mostly ARAM) because you are working as a team and have "roles" where if you don't know what you are doing you may detriment your team. Problem is the meta is pretty one dimensional and I also love in-depth MMORPs. That's why Pantheon seems so appealing as it combines the two. Playing titles where the challenging content is the end 5-10% is just boring.
I, too, play MOBAs these days to scratch my competitive itch. In PvP, there's a whole slew of other factors to consider, though.
@Torval, to my point though, those games provide excellent small team multiplayer. They can't provide massive player interaction. From the very dawn of the genre, part of the excitement spurring it on was the thought that technological advances would only enable these games to become bigger in terms of player and world interactivity... Devs have, instead, instanced the crap outta any content that requires world interaction and focused on providing the same small multiplayer experience. Only, MOBAs have a much wider berth to make the experience crisp and fun because they have a very narrow focus.
Again, I have nothing against solo content, but the trend has been towards trivializing lots of group content to enable folks to complete it in the most solo format available: anonymous queue pairing. Small team multiplayer games use this because ALL player interaction revolves around matches. MMORPGs do not revolve around such a one-dimensional experience. As such, I believe it's detrimental for them to mimic the systems used for those games.
You keep using the word player interaction but haven't said what qualifies that? Apparently using players like NPCs to fill their group is okay as long as you interact with them first. If you don't interact then it's not okay to treat them as disposable.
This might be the second or third time you have referenced other players as being equivalent to NPC's in a group. I don't know for sure but I think this probably best describes why you have so much trouble understanding why people who enjoy social interaction on a MMO do not support an insta port group finder feature. I assume from your comments you see other players primarily (maybe only?) as tools for your advancement and while yes that is one part of the role they play, I am fairly sure others who are arguing against you at the moment as well as this also enjoy the company of other people while gaming on a mmo and make friends based on personality and continue to build the community for the better.
I know this is just a differing opinion and your experience may differ to mine, but the first time i played a insta port group finder game was also the first time in a mmo I found myself stopping interacting with people past the words that might be spoken on a single dungeon run before half the people disband and re-que. For me it is quite clear that this mechanic is the majority reason for no one seeing the point in making friends as you will probably never see that person in game again. I guess the other % is made up of stupidly easy content and people being desperate to get to the end of a dungeon/game and start it all over again. My experience again was after giving P99 a go later after nearly giving up on MMO's I immediately felt like I was in an environment to start chatting, helping others for no gain, receiving help from others for no gain and making friends with people again in game (weird I know!!)
Unfortunately for you as it stands this game is not going to give you the insta port feature you seem to be arguing for (as it stands in ESO or Rift or whatever) so your just a bit out of luck here hoping to have it implemented in Pantheon mate.
1) Sovrath mentions something most of you neglect (have mentioned the 'yes or no/duality syndrome' before as well) and just stick to the arguments that work for your side
Social doesn't mean i need 4 more people just to walk to the tree across me. Social doesn't mean i need 5 more people for 'x' number of hours a day or i will STAY BEHIND (and you will). How the **** is that social, lol
Social means co-existing (and that can happen in both group-centric and non group-centric MMOS) Social means interacting (interacting isn't only shit-talking while pew pewing like fifteen year olds, which is your definition of group-centric, isn't it? Let's be honest. Interacting is ALSO having people to just talk to, meet, craft with, RP with, do silly stuff with. And you do -not- need a group-centric game for any of those!)
2) While Pantheon is what it is (and as such asking for solo play is just dumb, wrong product), the crowd is also what it is. TODAY. I've mentioned this in the official forums as well, this isn't 1999.
If you think the entire WoW mentality is just gonna go out the window because the logo says Pantheon this time around, you're sorely mistaken. If you think that Pantheon is a magical glass bubble where somehow ONLY people from EQ1 will be around (or ONLY people thinking like them), you're again deluded. If you think Pantheon members with forum names such as Sylvannnah (true story) will somehow "see the light" and become what a thirty years older individual is right now.. go teach pigs to fly
Ergo? i) stop derailing the thread with solo-centric arguments, wrong game, you're wasting our time. ii) the vast majority of you here, Brad included, have a pretty one-sided view on what is and is not "social", "positively interactive" etc etc. This is THE major issue. If the players are too dumb or immature to comprehend or think deeper, systems don't matter; they just won't be adopted. iii) Group-centric in 1999 and group-centric today cannot be the same thing. Impossible. They do acknowledge that in VR, yes. But frankly? When i need 5 slaves* right next to me just so i can pew pew (and you don't need to be smart, cute, funny or deep to pew pew, do you), i still need 5 slaves* to pew pew right next to me. Period. You can only stretch things so much when the core loot/progression mechanic revolves around that. And it does. So.. Problem. It's a cycle. You keep this type of progression, you keep this obligatory 'x' number of people enforcement, consequences will rise. Accept it. If you do, who knows, maybe someone will improve on things.
(*slaves not because i refute the social aspect; slaves because pew pew is mindless, repetitive, and not particularly demanding, intellectually speaking. Since when is pew-pewing together equal to social exactly? Have you considered what this entails for us humans?)
Long post, but it had to be. I wanted to show you that you too, the players, are an issue. Half of you don't even comprehend how vast and better the 'social' aspect could be, the other half of you stick to what you've been trained to like/see and refuse to remove the blindfold
None of us writing on this forums can be considered antisocial, we defy the very premise of antisocial when we engage in conversation.
Maybe food for thought, I dont know.
Actually I don't know about that. I consider myself anti-social.
In MMOs I will generally duo with my wife or solo if she isn't interested in playing. In my case I like the challenge of doing things I'm not supposed to do.
I have done as little 'real' grouping as possible since moving on from EQ/early EQ2 (except for the afore-mentioned spousal grouping ).
While I will occasionally contribute to chat - usually to answer questions I tend to treat MMOs as single player games played online with a back drop of many people logged on.
Anyway the point of this post (if there is a point, lol) is to show that there are other types of gamers out there that will play even if they don't meet the target demographic.
Another point (on topic this time) is I don't mind LFG tools, but I'm not a big fan of porting to a dungeon for a speed run.
Group finders are for games that don't really need guilds, where all the content can be soloed so people haven't taken the time to develop any relations in the game. So the only way they can get a group is with a dungeon finder.
Why would a solo player need a group finder? They play solo. If they used the group finder to play the game then they would be groupers waiting for a group. This isn't rocket science, or so I thought.
You know who wants grouping tools? Groupers who like to play the game.
Torval you know what I mean by this really... They solo all the open world content or skip the open world content they cant do. Then for dungeons where they need gear, they pug it using Group finder tools to get what they want until they are strong enough to solo whats left. All the while skipping any sort of community involvement, guilds, coms, LFG to team up for X etc. What did you think I meant? I didn't say single player game I said solo as in trying to solo every possible thing they can without having to work with other filthy hominids.
Complete social introverts playing MMO's. Something I never understood.
Torval you know what I mean by this really... They solo all the open world content or skip the open world content they cant do. Then for dungeons where they need gear, they pug it using Group finder tools to get what they want until they are strong enough to solo whats left. All the while skipping any sort of community involvement, guilds, coms, LFG to team up for X etc. What did you think I meant? I didn't say single player game I said solo as in trying to solo every possible thing they can without having to work with other filthy hominids.
Complete social introverts playing MMO's. Something I never understood.
Soloers don't group at all (or very rarely), you mean regular casual players, they play a little of most content without investing too much time or care into the game.
Hardcore soloers never group, ever. I am not sure why they bother with MMOs at all. Games like Witcher and TES does what they want far better then any MMO.
Personally don't I really care about dungeon finders, I only use them at times if the group me and my guldies (or just people I come to know in the game) lacks a member for a dungeon. I tend to use the guildchat to find most groups.
In my experience you're left with same type of socialization whether you promote it with forced group based content (EQ/DAOC/Pantheon) or group finders (modern MMOS). It's all the same reliance based need that spawns interaction. Both almost always devolve into pissing matches unless everyone is playing along in robotic form. So I really don't see the difference.
In both types of systems the majority do their real socializing in guilds/guild alliances or with RL friends who also play. Hence why I prefer social structures done in more communal ways (UO/SWG/EVE, as well as survival games). Where meeting people is a lot more natural and free flowing, it's not done on the basis of filling a needed roster or desired party make-up.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Torval you know what I mean by this really... They solo all the open world content or skip the open world content they cant do. Then for dungeons where they need gear, they pug it using Group finder tools to get what they want until they are strong enough to solo whats left. All the while skipping any sort of community involvement, guilds, coms, LFG to team up for X etc. What did you think I meant? I didn't say single player game I said solo as in trying to solo every possible thing they can without having to work with other filthy hominids.
Complete social introverts playing MMO's. Something I never understood.
Soloers don't group at all (or very rarely), you mean regular casual players, they play a little of most content without investing too much time or care into the game.
Hardcore soloers never group, ever. I am not sure why they bother with MMOs at all. Games like Witcher and TES does what they want far better then any MMO.
Personally don't I really care about dungeon finders, I only use them at times if the group me and my guldies (or just people I come to know in the game) lacks a member for a dungeon. I tend to use the guildchat to find most groups.
Those you describe often belong to guilds and often excel at getting great loot (we had a number of them in my PVP guild in SWG) they rarely participated in day to day PVP activities yet filled the guild coffers with great dot weapons, hard to come by components, etc.. on a regular basis. They certainly serve a purpose. (I'd suspect it's these types that are often filling the auction vendors with a lot of those epic items you see daily in games like TOR, WOW, ETc....).
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
None of us writing on this forums can be considered antisocial, we defy the very premise of antisocial when we engage in conversation.
Maybe food for thought, I dont know.
Actually I don't know about that. I consider myself anti-social.
In MMOs I will generally duo with my wife or solo if she isn't interested in playing. In my case I like the challenge of doing things I'm not supposed to do.
I have done as little 'real' grouping as possible since moving on from EQ/early EQ2 (except for the afore-mentioned spousal grouping ).
While I will occasionally contribute to chat - usually to answer questions I tend to treat MMOs as single player games played online with a back drop of many people logged on.
Anyway the point of this post (if there is a point, lol) is to show that there are other types of gamers out there that will play even if they don't meet the target demographic.
Another point (on topic this time) is I don't mind LFG tools, but I'm not a big fan of porting to a dungeon for a speed run.
I think you like people around you , looking at the rest of us running around, riding our fancy mounts, looking at people passing you when we all travel around.
You might not be eager to talk to every single person on your way, but you are social in your way and time, when motivation and energy is there? Am I right?
In my terminology social is not one set thing, its fluent, with people in all areas of the spectrum of social. A spectrum from within even the single individual can travel back and fourth from minute to minute or year to year.
Some desire to speak to everyone they see, some just like the presence of others without the need to talk much.
Who decides what kind of social should be allowed and who should not, yeah Im well aware some will try to dictate who are and who is not, but these dictators, if they dont know the one end of the spectrum to the other end of the spectrum, then how good a judge are they really?
Being social, in my humble opinion, does not automatically mean that someone has to be the chatty, always raid and group ready kind.
But it is ok, if you believe you are antisocial and appreciate the solitude, I wont argue against you. But I think there is a social observer in there, one who just travel along, observes and have fun, while at the same time you obviously lend yourself to a community as a guide.
Id call you social, you are just not the kind of social that require constant company to have a good time, its enough with just a quiet companion every now and then.
I think (whispers) a lot of older gamers are right there with you, in fact I know so (but dont tell anyone or those out there starts screaming at us)
Scambug said: why on earth do they come in MMOs and whine about the games not being soloable?
Because your premise "gamers who enjoy soloing everything shouldn't be playing MMOs" is false. Such line of thinking is "dumb and selfish beyond belief"....
Looks like someone forgot what the second M in MMORPG stands for. MMORPGs were originally designed as multiplayer games, not games you solo from start to finish. Eventually console gamers got on board and managed to corrupt and pervert the genre by turning it into the opposite of what it was originally meant to be.
So yes someone who comes in an MMO and fusses about the content being group oriented is dumb (because he doesn't understand what the acronym means) and selfish (because he's trying to impose his play style on a genre that isn't made for him).
Scambug said: why on earth do they come in MMOs and whine about the games not being soloable?
Because your premise "gamers who enjoy soloing everything shouldn't be playing MMOs" is false. Such line of thinking is "dumb and selfish beyond belief"....
Looks like someone forgot what the second M in MMORPG stands for. MMORPGs were originally designed as multiplayer games, not games you solo from start to finish. Eventually console gamers got on board and managed to corrupt and pervert the genre by turning it into the opposite of what it was originally meant to be.
So yes someone who comes in an MMO and fusses about the content being group oriented is dumb (because he doesn't understand what the acronym means) and selfish (because he's trying to impose his play style on a genre that isn't made for him).
now wait a minute, that's different. "fusses about the content" is different than what you originally said.
To that end there are a lot of "solo" players who play mmo's who don't "fuss about the content". They just accept that there are things they won't do or that they have to eventually find a group to do them.
I have no problem with group only (or advised) activities in mmo's and I agree that people should know what they are getting into.
But there are (usually) so many things to do in an mmo that not everything is about "grouping".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Craft in a group you get higher tier items and you get more xp from it. Harvest in a group you get higher tier mats and more xp from it. Fish in a group you get higher tier mats and more xp from it. Lots to do in a group setting
Scambug said: why on earth do they come in MMOs and whine about the games not being soloable?
Because your premise "gamers who enjoy soloing everything shouldn't be playing MMOs" is false. Such line of thinking is "dumb and selfish beyond belief"....
Looks like someone forgot what the second M in MMORPG stands for. MMORPGs were originally designed as multiplayer games, not games you solo from start to finish. Eventually console gamers got on board and managed to corrupt and pervert the genre by turning it into the opposite of what it was originally meant to be.
So yes someone who comes in an MMO and fusses about the content being group oriented is dumb (because he doesn't understand what the acronym means) and selfish (because he's trying to impose his play style on a genre that isn't made for him).
now wait a minute, that's different. "fusses about the content" is different than what you originally said.
To that end there are a lot of "solo" players who play mmo's who don't "fuss about the content". They just accept that there are things they won't do or that they have to eventually find a group to do them.
I have no problem with group only (or advised) activities in mmo's and I agree that people should know what they are getting into.
But there are (usually) so many things to do in an mmo that not everything is about "grouping".
Yeah wait a minute. The original quote basically said that soloers had no business in an MMO. Now that is changing to 'soloers shouldn't complain about group content'. These are two entirely different things.
I have been a soloer since midway through my time in EQ2 and not once have I complained that there shouldn't be group content, asking for more solo content, or asking for easier content. That is like saying all raiders want is more raid content and screw the casual groupers - another statement that is patently false.
I would think that people that like to group would love those of us that solo - we can't go after the group content very well and we pay to support the game.
None of us writing on this forums can be considered antisocial, we defy the very premise of antisocial when we engage in conversation.
Maybe food for thought, I dont know.
Actually I don't know about that. I consider myself anti-social.
In MMOs I will generally duo with my wife or solo if she isn't interested in playing. In my case I like the challenge of doing things I'm not supposed to do.
I have done as little 'real' grouping as possible since moving on from EQ/early EQ2 (except for the afore-mentioned spousal grouping ).
While I will occasionally contribute to chat - usually to answer questions I tend to treat MMOs as single player games played online with a back drop of many people logged on.
Anyway the point of this post (if there is a point, lol) is to show that there are other types of gamers out there that will play even if they don't meet the target demographic.
Another point (on topic this time) is I don't mind LFG tools, but I'm not a big fan of porting to a dungeon for a speed run.
I think you like people around you , looking at the rest of us running around, riding our fancy mounts, looking at people passing you when we all travel around.
You might not be eager to talk to every single person on your way, but you are social in your way and time, when motivation and energy is there? Am I right?
In my terminology social is not one set thing, its fluent, with people in all areas of the spectrum of social. A spectrum from within even the single individual can travel back and fourth from minute to minute or year to year.
Some desire to speak to everyone they see, some just like the presence of others without the need to talk much.
Who decides what kind of social should be allowed and who should not, yeah Im well aware some will try to dictate who are and who is not, but these dictators, if they dont know the one end of the spectrum to the other end of the spectrum, then how good a judge are they really?
Being social, in my humble opinion, does not automatically mean that someone has to be the chatty, always raid and group ready kind.
But it is ok, if you believe you are antisocial and appreciate the solitude, I wont argue against you. But I think there is a social observer in there, one who just travel along, observes and have fun, while at the same time you obviously lend yourself to a community as a guide.
Id call you social, you are just not the kind of social that require constant company to have a good time, its enough with just a quiet companion every now and then.
I think (whispers) a lot of older gamers are right there with you, in fact I know so (but don't tell anyone or those out there starts screaming at us)
Good points - under this definition I would say that I am social... just don't send me a blind group or guild invite and wonder why the answer is always 'no'
I also think that you are probably right about the older gamers. Our local group that all started in EQ do all still play MMOs, but they normally only group with each other if they group. Of course I would never make a blanket statement to that effect
None of us writing on this forums can be considered antisocial, we defy the very premise of antisocial when we engage in conversation.
Maybe food for thought, I dont know.
Actually I don't know about that. I consider myself anti-social.
In MMOs I will generally duo with my wife or solo if she isn't interested in playing. In my case I like the challenge of doing things I'm not supposed to do.
I have done as little 'real' grouping as possible since moving on from EQ/early EQ2 (except for the afore-mentioned spousal grouping ).
While I will occasionally contribute to chat - usually to answer questions I tend to treat MMOs as single player games played online with a back drop of many people logged on.
Anyway the point of this post (if there is a point, lol) is to show that there are other types of gamers out there that will play even if they don't meet the target demographic.
Another point (on topic this time) is I don't mind LFG tools, but I'm not a big fan of porting to a dungeon for a speed run.
I think you like people around you , looking at the rest of us running around, riding our fancy mounts, looking at people passing you when we all travel around.
You might not be eager to talk to every single person on your way, but you are social in your way and time, when motivation and energy is there? Am I right?
In my terminology social is not one set thing, its fluent, with people in all areas of the spectrum of social. A spectrum from within even the single individual can travel back and fourth from minute to minute or year to year.
Some desire to speak to everyone they see, some just like the presence of others without the need to talk much.
Who decides what kind of social should be allowed and who should not, yeah Im well aware some will try to dictate who are and who is not, but these dictators, if they dont know the one end of the spectrum to the other end of the spectrum, then how good a judge are they really?
Being social, in my humble opinion, does not automatically mean that someone has to be the chatty, always raid and group ready kind.
But it is ok, if you believe you are antisocial and appreciate the solitude, I wont argue against you. But I think there is a social observer in there, one who just travel along, observes and have fun, while at the same time you obviously lend yourself to a community as a guide.
Id call you social, you are just not the kind of social that require constant company to have a good time, its enough with just a quiet companion every now and then.
I think (whispers) a lot of older gamers are right there with you, in fact I know so (but don't tell anyone or those out there starts screaming at us)
Good points - under this definition I would say that I am social... just don't send me a blind group or guild invite and wonder why the answer is always 'no'
I also think that you are probably right about the older gamers. Our local group that all started in EQ do all still play MMOs, but they normally only group with each other if they group. Of course I would never make a blanket statement to that effect
Many here will not agree but I think Vanilla World of Warcraft was the perfect mmo. Maybe a year after release and several patches. EQ2 was the same, just that WoW was more user friendly.
It really had an abundance of content for every type of player. From extreme easy, easy, medium and hard for solo players. And the same for group content......It covered the entire range !
An mmo should do that, cover the entire spectrum.....problem is nothing does that at all anymore, even the classics are knocked down several pegs. This leaves most with nothing at all to play.
You know you could argue that lacking a group finder makes a game less social because it makes players rely on the same tight group of people for everything, instead of meeting random new players. Tight bonds with fewer people is also being social, but at the same time you are not open to new people which is less social. So social can have several faces depending on how you look at it.
Group Finders are one of the worst things that ever happened to MMORPGs.
I wouldn't say group finders, I would say Automated Group Finders. Having a tool where you could flag yourself for group content and others can browse for you is fine. You still have to be Social and talk with people to join a group. It also pushes you to make friends. Automated Group Finders fucked MMOs.
I wonder how many of the people in this thread realize/remember that even good ol' Everquest had a primitive group-finder. It was definitely crude, but even so it played a HUGE part in finding people for groups.
Later games simply took it too far(with the auto-joining and teleporting) as systems evolved in the genre.
Yes today's LFD took grouping way too far. Again I think a Flagging/Search system works well. Let groups flag themselves looking for party members and what they are looking for. This allows a player to search for a party. Also allow players to flag themselves as looking for group so Parties can search for people. If done right and the interface is easy to use there should be NO problem finding a group. The Problem is everyone who seems to want a LFD tool want WOW. It's time games stop being WOW.
Grouping Centric MMORPGs do not work today because Developers spend $100+ Million on MMORPGs today, look at SWTOR, $250 Million, ESO is around $250 Million, Wildstar, and so on ALL are spending Hundreds of Millions of Dollars. They HAVE TO be solo based games with Automated Group Finder tools. WHY? Because 100K or 250K subs will not pay the bills. Pantheon is not going for a large budget MMO. They will likely succeed and prove people wrong because everyone since WOW became a thing figured WOW was the new norm for MMORPGs. Well none of succeed. Yes FFXIV is doing well but that is mainly because how many FF fans there are.
We don't know game costs. A poster in another thread had much lower numbers. They were guesses as well. Simple enough to recognise that the cost to develop a game is a factor in the games long term financial health.
And comments can be made about the games you list. Wildstar was heavily promoted as a group centric raid focused hard core old fashioned game. (Did I hit all the tight buttons?). SWTOR is touted by those who play as a group friendly game. ESO is not an "mmo that promotes solo play" - its a solo game and a co-op game and a group centred game.
And games don't have to be solo centric. Have you tried Respawn's Titanfall? Its mandatory group only. Star Wars Battle Field? You can solo but the biggest complaint against the game is its almost group only. Key points however: expensive successful titles and group centric.
What developers have to do - easy to say very hard to do - is develop (and market) a game with a set of features that enough people will buy to allow them to recover their costs. However much they have spent.
ESO, WildStart, and SWTOR all cost over $250 Million. So they fucked themselves by having any group centric game play because they need to get every sale possible to recoup their investment. If a MMORPG developer spends less on development they can get away with not having to need millions of subs. Then they can cater to a niche group.
Without a LFG tool in the game, it will force players to be more sociable
How exactly do you force them to play the game and "socialize" instead of playing some other game...?
You don't. Antisocial gamers who enjoy soloing everything shouldn't be playing MMOs in the first place, single player RPGs are made specifically for them why on earth do they come in MMOs and whine about the games not being soloable? It's dumb and selfish beyond belief.
I hold the same belief. IF you play an MMO you should be working on you social circle and not need a automated group finder. This is something that has killed MMOs since WOTLK.
I hold the same belief. IF you play an MMO you should be working on you social circle and not need a automated group finder. This is something that has killed MMOs since WOTLK.
I think group finders have gotten a shitty rep just because the tech started popping up at around the same time games were repeatedly dumbed down. IMO it doesnt make any sense that a simple server wide grouping feature that puts players together without requiring they stay in some popular hub would result in the non-sense we have now. Its much more likely that grouping is the mess it is now because dungeons are unbelievably easy, requiring little to no effort or coordination, and made to be done in 15-30 minutes.
Sure, things like porting to dungeon doesnt help, but thats minor. At worst, porting just stops players from the "where are you" ... "who needs a port" conversations which, sure, serve as a decent ice breaker but very minor in the grand scheme. Also it devalues participating players, making them more expendable if a replacement can just port in within minutes. In actuality, the biggest culprit is the designs of the group content itself. Easy content = no coordination, more easily annoyed players with little to no tolerance for mistakes. 15 minute dungeons = "go go go" mentality, specially when coupled with farmable epics via participation tokens.
On the other hand, Pantheon is a somewhat different game where you shouldnt expect to be able to do much on your own. Still, a same server group finder that simply puts players together based on roles, no porting, just a popup/chime informing players when the group is created, should suffice without taking away too much from the social game. I dont care how social you are or how awesome your guild is, there will be a time when no one you know will be available and willing to help, specially as content ages. Thats not fun, or even practical to require players waste who knows how long spamming random /who players who likely dont wan to be bothered at that time or stuck in town spamming LFG hoping 4-5 players of the correct class will bite.
I hold the same belief. IF you play an MMO you should be working on you social circle and not need a automated group finder. This is something that has killed MMOs since WOTLK.
I think group finders have gotten a shitty rep just because the tech started popping up at around the same time games were repeatedly dumbed down. IMO it doesnt make any sense that a simple server wide grouping feature that puts players together without requiring they stay in some popular hub would result in the non-sense we have now. Its much more likely that grouping is the mess it is now because dungeons are unbelievably easy, requiring little to no effort or coordination, and made to be done in 15-30 minutes.
Sure, things like porting to dungeon doesnt help, but thats minor. At worst, porting just stops players from the "where are you" ... "who needs a port" conversations which, sure, serve as a decent ice breaker but very minor in the grand scheme. Also it devalues participating players, making them more expendable if a replacement can just port in within minutes. In actuality, the biggest culprit is the designs of the group content itself. Easy content = no coordination, more easily annoyed players with little to no tolerance for mistakes. 15 minute dungeons = "go go go" mentality, specially when coupled with farmable epics via participation tokens.
On the other hand, Pantheon is a somewhat different game where you shouldnt expect to be able to do much on your own. Still, a same server group finder that simply puts players together based on roles, no porting, just a popup/chime informing players when the group is created, should suffice without taking away too much from the social game. I dont care how social you are or how awesome your guild is, there will be a time when no one you know will be available and willing to help, specially as content ages. Thats not fun, or even practical to require players waste who knows how long spamming random /who players who likely dont wan to be bothered at that time or stuck in town spamming LFG hoping 4-5 players of the correct class will bite.
Some of what you said is correct. During WOTLK content became AOE 4 or 5 packs of mobs and keep moving on. In WOTLK you seen skill levels of players drop down to AOE and max DPS Rotations and healer who could heal through stupid. That didn't help at all and really killed the need to help other people.
LFD Did also play a role in killing the Social Aspect of the game though. I know this was brought up in the WOD Blizzcon that people no longer are willing to wait for someone to even take 2 minutes to get a cup of coffee. They just queue up and go. I was saying nearly the same shit during WOTLK, my friends list became useless outside of my closes friends who played all the time. Social ties I had to guild leaders of many guilds eroded because the game became too focused on making everyone happy and easy content.
It also didnt help that LFD was cross server and people could queue and would be in a group in 5 to 10 minutes so why wait for someone.
As for server only LFD tools, SWTOR had that after launch and I can tell you I ran nearly 100 flashpoints and made no friends off it even though I tried. The few people who did add me to their friends list Only did so to try to get me to join their guilds outside of that they wouldnt talk to me or try to group up with me for something else even though they wanted me as a Healer in their raid group. They were the type that if you stopped playing for 2 weeks they would replace you, because they only wanted you around if you were going to help them right now.
Another thing about same server LFD it also does not help people find groups that fit what they are looking for. For example if you have a new player to the game and they are still learning, the LFD tool does not take into account it might add you to a group that has mostly high end raiders who do not want you there and will harass you. No a system like I said where you can pick what you are looking for, your role and an explanation would end up getting you a FAR better group even if it takes you longer to find. If this happens you have a greater chance of meeting more friends.
The core problem with Pantheon is it is a group always game much like FFXI was, and yes has a core problem in the fact that some people will not find groups everytime they are on. This is why Vanilla/TBC WOW was so popular. Yea you might have a few easy group content quest in the world easy for people to get fairly fast help for 10 to 15 minutes and move on. Dungeons were designed for you to not run daily multiple times a day. They were designed that you put time aside to do. Even if you had to schedule it a day or more ahead of time and yes even if you needed to find 1 more you would talk in trade or general chat for someone else. But you would also say, learning party we are new to this instance. Often times get someone learning it or doing it over for the 2nd or 3rd time and willing to work with new people. Hell even the the hardcore players were able and willing to help because it was a social driven game not convenience based. Hell that makes me think of the friends I made in Scion the only guild on my server to get into Naxx 1.0 and clear it. I have friends in this guild that I helped out on countless times as a tank and healer yet I was in an average 40/20 man raiding guild. I also had friends in leadership spots in nearly every raiding guild.
You dont get to where I was as a player and leader with any kind of LFD tool. A FFXIV Party Finder tool with more features, yep. But not a LFD tool.
Also let's add in that Blizzard developers during WOD and Yoshi-P in Square Enix's event have said that having any kind of hard content where a random group is put together does not work. It is because Random grouping tools do not encourage socialization or communication in anyway, so if the boss requires communication the negative response will be overpowering. Basically what it boils down to is Random groups cannot take on anything more challenging than hack n slash content.
I understand where you are coming from however the negatives of any LFD tool just hurts the game too much.
There seems to be a widely held belief that without group finder, players will walk up to other players and ask to group up to invade the haunted fortress on the outskirts of town. And in that conversation, they will bond and then go smoke some old Toby together outside the local Inn.
Some will, sure.
But many will form/join the type of huge, impersonal guilds we often see nowadays in GW2. Hundreds and hundreds of members. Nobody really knows anyone. Nobody cares. Guild chat is a LFG tool and little else.
Some may see this as socializing, but I can't say I do.
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@Torval, to my point though, those games provide excellent small team multiplayer. They can't provide massive player interaction. From the very dawn of the genre, part of the excitement spurring it on was the thought that technological advances would only enable these games to become bigger in terms of player and world interactivity... Devs have, instead, instanced the crap outta any content that requires world interaction and focused on providing the same small multiplayer experience. Only, MOBAs have a much wider berth to make the experience crisp and fun because they have a very narrow focus.
Again, I have nothing against solo content, but the trend has been towards trivializing lots of group content to enable folks to complete it in the most solo format available: anonymous queue pairing. Small team multiplayer games use this because ALL player interaction revolves around matches. MMORPGs do not revolve around such a one-dimensional experience. As such, I believe it's detrimental for them to mimic the systems used for those games.
I know this is just a differing opinion and your experience may differ to mine, but the first time i played a insta port group finder game was also the first time in a mmo I found myself stopping interacting with people past the words that might be spoken on a single dungeon run before half the people disband and re-que. For me it is quite clear that this mechanic is the majority reason for no one seeing the point in making friends as you will probably never see that person in game again. I guess the other % is made up of stupidly easy content and people being desperate to get to the end of a dungeon/game and start it all over again. My experience again was after giving P99 a go later after nearly giving up on MMO's I immediately felt like I was in an environment to start chatting, helping others for no gain, receiving help from others for no gain and making friends with people again in game (weird I know!!)
Unfortunately for you as it stands this game is not going to give you the insta port feature you seem to be arguing for (as it stands in ESO or Rift or whatever) so your just a bit out of luck here hoping to have it implemented in Pantheon mate.
Social doesn't mean i need 4 more people just to walk to the tree across me.
Social doesn't mean i need 5 more people for 'x' number of hours a day or i will STAY BEHIND (and you will). How the **** is that social, lol
Social means co-existing (and that can happen in both group-centric and non group-centric MMOS)
Social means interacting (interacting isn't only shit-talking while pew pewing like fifteen year olds, which is your definition of group-centric, isn't it? Let's be honest. Interacting is ALSO having people to just talk to, meet, craft with, RP with, do silly stuff with. And you do -not- need a group-centric game for any of those!)
2) While Pantheon is what it is (and as such asking for solo play is just dumb, wrong product), the crowd is also what it is. TODAY.
I've mentioned this in the official forums as well, this isn't 1999.
If you think the entire WoW mentality is just gonna go out the window because the logo says Pantheon this time around, you're sorely mistaken.
If you think that Pantheon is a magical glass bubble where somehow ONLY people from EQ1 will be around (or ONLY people thinking like them), you're again deluded.
If you think Pantheon members with forum names such as Sylvannnah (true story) will somehow "see the light" and become what a thirty years older individual is right now.. go teach pigs to fly
Ergo?
i) stop derailing the thread with solo-centric arguments, wrong game, you're wasting our time.
ii) the vast majority of you here, Brad included, have a pretty one-sided view on what is and is not "social", "positively interactive" etc etc. This is THE major issue. If the players are too dumb or immature to comprehend or think deeper, systems don't matter; they just won't be adopted.
iii) Group-centric in 1999 and group-centric today cannot be the same thing. Impossible. They do acknowledge that in VR, yes. But frankly? When i need 5 slaves* right next to me just so i can pew pew (and you don't need to be smart, cute, funny or deep to pew pew, do you), i still need 5 slaves* to pew pew right next to me. Period.
You can only stretch things so much when the core loot/progression mechanic revolves around that. And it does. So.. Problem. It's a cycle. You keep this type of progression, you keep this obligatory 'x' number of people enforcement, consequences will rise. Accept it. If you do, who knows, maybe someone will improve on things.
(*slaves not because i refute the social aspect; slaves because pew pew is mindless, repetitive, and not particularly demanding, intellectually speaking. Since when is pew-pewing together equal to social exactly? Have you considered what this entails for us humans?)
Long post, but it had to be. I wanted to show you that you too, the players, are an issue. Half of you don't even comprehend how vast and better the 'social' aspect could be, the other half of you stick to what you've been trained to like/see and refuse to remove the blindfold
Pride, honour and purity
Maybe food for thought, I dont know.
Actually I don't know about that. I consider myself anti-social.
In MMOs I will generally duo with my wife or solo if she isn't interested in playing. In my case I like the challenge of doing things I'm not supposed to do.
I have done as little 'real' grouping as possible since moving on from EQ/early EQ2 (except for the afore-mentioned spousal grouping
While I will occasionally contribute to chat - usually to answer questions I tend to treat MMOs as single player games played online with a back drop of many people logged on.
Anyway the point of this post (if there is a point, lol) is to show that there are other types of gamers out there that will play even if they don't meet the target demographic.
Another point (on topic this time) is I don't mind LFG tools, but I'm not a big fan of porting to a dungeon for a speed run.
Complete social introverts playing MMO's. Something I never understood.
Hardcore soloers never group, ever. I am not sure why they bother with MMOs at all. Games like Witcher and TES does what they want far better then any MMO.
Personally don't I really care about dungeon finders, I only use them at times if the group me and my guldies (or just people I come to know in the game) lacks a member for a dungeon. I tend to use the guildchat to find most groups.
In both types of systems the majority do their real socializing in guilds/guild alliances or with RL friends who also play. Hence why I prefer social structures done in more communal ways (UO/SWG/EVE, as well as survival games). Where meeting people is a lot more natural and free flowing, it's not done on the basis of filling a needed roster or desired party make-up.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think you like people around you
You might not be eager to talk to every single person on your way, but you are social in your way and time, when motivation and energy is there? Am I right?
In my terminology social is not one set thing, its fluent, with people in all areas of the spectrum of social. A spectrum from within even the single individual can travel back and fourth from minute to minute or year to year.
Some desire to speak to everyone they see, some just like the presence of others without the need to talk much.
Who decides what kind of social should be allowed and who should not, yeah Im well aware some will try to dictate who are and who is not, but these dictators, if they dont know the one end of the spectrum to the other end of the spectrum, then how good a judge are they really?
Being social, in my humble opinion, does not automatically mean that someone has to be the chatty, always raid and group ready kind.
But it is ok, if you believe you are antisocial and appreciate the solitude, I wont argue against you.
But I think there is a social observer in there, one who just travel along, observes and have fun, while at the same time you obviously lend yourself to a community as a guide.
Id call you social, you are just not the kind of social that require constant company to have a good time, its enough with just a quiet companion every now and then.
I think (whispers) a lot of older gamers are right there with you, in fact I know so (but dont tell anyone or those out there starts screaming at us)
So yes someone who comes in an MMO and fusses about the content being group oriented is dumb (because he doesn't understand what the acronym means) and selfish (because he's trying to impose his play style on a genre that isn't made for him).
To that end there are a lot of "solo" players who play mmo's who don't "fuss about the content". They just accept that there are things they won't do or that they have to eventually find a group to do them.
I have no problem with group only (or advised) activities in mmo's and I agree that people should know what they are getting into.
But there are (usually) so many things to do in an mmo that not everything is about "grouping".
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I have been a soloer since midway through my time in EQ2 and not once have I complained that there shouldn't be group content, asking for more solo content, or asking for easier content. That is like saying all raiders want is more raid content and screw the casual groupers - another statement that is patently false.
I would think that people that like to group would love those of us that solo - we can't go after the group content very well and we pay to support the game.
Good points - under this definition I would say that I am social... just don't send me a blind group or guild invite and wonder why the answer is always 'no'
I also think that you are probably right about the older gamers. Our local group that all started in EQ do all still play MMOs, but they normally only group with each other if they group. Of course I would never make a blanket statement to that effect
Many here will not agree but I think Vanilla World of Warcraft was the perfect mmo. Maybe a year after release and several patches. EQ2 was the same, just that WoW was more user friendly.
It really had an abundance of content for every type of player. From extreme easy, easy, medium and hard for solo players. And the same for group content......It covered the entire range !
An mmo should do that, cover the entire spectrum.....problem is nothing does that at all anymore, even the classics are knocked down several pegs. This leaves most with nothing at all to play.
Tight bonds with fewer people is also being social, but at the same time you are not open to new people which is less social.
So social can have several faces depending on how you look at it.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Sure, things like porting to dungeon doesnt help, but thats minor. At worst, porting just stops players from the "where are you" ... "who needs a port" conversations which, sure, serve as a decent ice breaker but very minor in the grand scheme. Also it devalues participating players, making them more expendable if a replacement can just port in within minutes. In actuality, the biggest culprit is the designs of the group content itself. Easy content = no coordination, more easily annoyed players with little to no tolerance for mistakes. 15 minute dungeons = "go go go" mentality, specially when coupled with farmable epics via participation tokens.
On the other hand, Pantheon is a somewhat different game where you shouldnt expect to be able to do much on your own. Still, a same server group finder that simply puts players together based on roles, no porting, just a popup/chime informing players when the group is created, should suffice without taking away too much from the social game. I dont care how social you are or how awesome your guild is, there will be a time when no one you know will be available and willing to help, specially as content ages. Thats not fun, or even practical to require players waste who knows how long spamming random /who players who likely dont wan to be bothered at that time or stuck in town spamming LFG hoping 4-5 players of the correct class will bite.
LFD Did also play a role in killing the Social Aspect of the game though. I know this was brought up in the WOD Blizzcon that people no longer are willing to wait for someone to even take 2 minutes to get a cup of coffee. They just queue up and go. I was saying nearly the same shit during WOTLK, my friends list became useless outside of my closes friends who played all the time. Social ties I had to guild leaders of many guilds eroded because the game became too focused on making everyone happy and easy content.
It also didnt help that LFD was cross server and people could queue and would be in a group in 5 to 10 minutes so why wait for someone.
As for server only LFD tools, SWTOR had that after launch and I can tell you I ran nearly 100 flashpoints and made no friends off it even though I tried. The few people who did add me to their friends list Only did so to try to get me to join their guilds outside of that they wouldnt talk to me or try to group up with me for something else even though they wanted me as a Healer in their raid group. They were the type that if you stopped playing for 2 weeks they would replace you, because they only wanted you around if you were going to help them right now.
Another thing about same server LFD it also does not help people find groups that fit what they are looking for. For example if you have a new player to the game and they are still learning, the LFD tool does not take into account it might add you to a group that has mostly high end raiders who do not want you there and will harass you. No a system like I said where you can pick what you are looking for, your role and an explanation would end up getting you a FAR better group even if it takes you longer to find. If this happens you have a greater chance of meeting more friends.
The core problem with Pantheon is it is a group always game much like FFXI was, and yes has a core problem in the fact that some people will not find groups everytime they are on. This is why Vanilla/TBC WOW was so popular. Yea you might have a few easy group content quest in the world easy for people to get fairly fast help for 10 to 15 minutes and move on. Dungeons were designed for you to not run daily multiple times a day. They were designed that you put time aside to do. Even if you had to schedule it a day or more ahead of time and yes even if you needed to find 1 more you would talk in trade or general chat for someone else. But you would also say, learning party we are new to this instance. Often times get someone learning it or doing it over for the 2nd or 3rd time and willing to work with new people. Hell even the the hardcore players were able and willing to help because it was a social driven game not convenience based. Hell that makes me think of the friends I made in Scion the only guild on my server to get into Naxx 1.0 and clear it. I have friends in this guild that I helped out on countless times as a tank and healer yet I was in an average 40/20 man raiding guild. I also had friends in leadership spots in nearly every raiding guild.
You dont get to where I was as a player and leader with any kind of LFD tool. A FFXIV Party Finder tool with more features, yep. But not a LFD tool.
Also let's add in that Blizzard developers during WOD and Yoshi-P in Square Enix's event have said that having any kind of hard content where a random group is put together does not work. It is because Random grouping tools do not encourage socialization or communication in anyway, so if the boss requires communication the negative response will be overpowering. Basically what it boils down to is Random groups cannot take on anything more challenging than hack n slash content.
I understand where you are coming from however the negatives of any LFD tool just hurts the game too much.
Some will, sure.
But many will form/join the type of huge, impersonal guilds we often see nowadays in GW2. Hundreds and hundreds of members. Nobody really knows anyone. Nobody cares. Guild chat is a LFG tool and little else.
Some may see this as socializing, but I can't say I do.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests