EQ class stereotypes, too much?

Hexipox

After seeing all the footage of the game, the streams, Q&A and interviews I've started to grow a small concern...

VR always seems to refer to their own classes as if they were the same as they use to be in EQ - it's seems already given that a shaman roll will be his great slow of attack speed, enchanters to increase mana regeneration and CC, clerics to be the master healer, warriors to be tanks, wizards to nuke - then we can guess what the rest of the classes will do.

This may not be an issue, but I'm  concerned that the classes will not diviate and you will feel you are playing same game on a different engine.

I hope they will add more diverse classes where the stereotype of EQ is broken up a bit. And VR may already be planing this with their special abilities coming through epic quest and so... 

But the talk where EQ is mentioned nearly always when talking classes and rolls got me a bit concerned - what about you? Is it only me who have these butterflies in the stomach?

TENTING

Been thinking the same, but going to take it for a spin anyway. I really dont long back to EQ days at all though.

But from a PvEers point of view, what are our alternatives in 2017 anyway?

Kilrain

I don't personally feel that way. I haven't played a game since that was anything really like it so going back will still feel quite fresh. I mean, I wouldn't like every spell being identical in name and style, but overall if the classes are essentially the same it isn't going to bother me a bit as it will actually be a change of pace.

Another thing I think about with Pantheon is it's going to be like going back to day 1 of EQ (almost). Beautiful graphics, as that's how my memory interprets it. Large unexplored world. Strangers running around teaming up to kill and explore together. Discovering new items and locations. Figuring out where quests are for the first time. Can't wait.

Lokero

I totally understand what you are saying.  Hopefully the EQ obsession is just fan service and the game will be alot more unique with its own identity.

Keep in mind, though, that EQ classes were pretty generic D&D style fantasy, which seems to be Brad's MO.  He seems to stick with the same base in his designs.  So, you could argue it's less about EQ and more about the stereotypical fantasy setup.

Still, I would hope they have a little more diversity in the classes than just the same spells/abilities that EQ and such had.  I mean, I hope they at least have some optional builds for each class so that if you have two warriors in a group, the second warrior isn't completely useless -- a dps setup or something.

I thoroughly admit to not looking that deeply into how class customization works in this game.  I don't know if there will be some type of individuality such as skill points/talents, etc., or not.

linadragon

Lokero said:

I totally understand what you are saying.  Hopefully the EQ obsession is just fan service and the game will be alot more unique with its own identity.

Keep in mind, though, that EQ classes were pretty generic D&D style fantasy, which seems to be Brad's MO.  He seems to stick with the same base in his designs.  So, you could argue it's less about EQ and more about the stereotypical fantasy setup.

Still, I would hope they have a little more diversity in the classes than just the same spells/abilities that EQ and such had.  I mean, I hope they at least have some optional builds for each class so that if you have two warriors in a group, the second warrior isn't completely useless -- a dps setup or something.

I thoroughly admit to not looking that deeply into how class customization works in this game.  I don't know if there will be some type of individuality such as skill points/talents, etc., or not.

That's the thing though. I mean given the classes in MMORPGs now the jump back to EQ like classes with a wider variety of roles and other shit is actually "fresh" and nice to see again... It is ridiculous that we have streamlined shit so much now that it is basically just tank, dps, heals. That is literally all MMORPGs are anymore and the likes of buffers, debuffers, CC, and real support classes are just gone...

Frankly I'm happy they are bringing some more roles back. 

Dullahan

There are some pretty important differences with Pantheon. Other than a number of the features they list on the website, there's also the fact that melee will have more than auto-attack + 1 ability. I'd say that's an improvement.

Early on they said EQ was the foundation for the game they're making. In early development, that will probably be more apparent than down the line as they complete the other intended features.

Personally, I think they should only change things that are absolutely necessary. EQ was a combination of a lot of features and details that created an x-factor. Too many changes could lose that.

Hokanu99

I am looking forward to playing an enchanter again in a game with a real role for CC, i really like the rigid differences between classes in EQ and as far as i know Pantheon is being designed to fit into the "Quaternity"  Tank, Heal, DPS, CC.  They have made / chosen classes to fall into these categories, because for the most part EQ also used this system there would be many crossovers for sure and the names and roles they have chosen (at this point int time) are mostly the same as those EQ names but i think they are pretty fitting for what the class is supposed to be.  There is some customisation through how your develop the skills your chosen class, not much info on this yet though.  

They are trying to avoid classes that can do it all for the purpose of interdependence, by the sound of it VR are looking forward to see how people will play their class and manipulate / combine the skills / mechanics they are given to find different ways to play, an example of this would be how enchanters worked in EQ, there were more than one way to play an enchanter, especially whether you talk about how or why you use the the charm ability vs summoned pet or no pet at all, or pacify pre-pull or mez after pull, root mobs, fear mobs or blind mobs for cc (all with varying results)  depending on the vastness of the environment your in at that time.

We are yet to see what the spell/skill lists are and who knows how they will turn out

But i think a great answer to this is @Lokero above saying it is also seemingly based off some D&D classes.

centkin

Hey, if there is an old style shaman, I will feel right at home.  I loved my iksar shaman in EQ1.  I had originally played a wood elf druid before the expansion and switched over to embrace the new lands of Kunark and never looked back.

Hexipox

Well i just hope for some epic class end game abilities that really define the class giving them a group tool that makes them unique in a group. Be that druids create a circle of impenetrable branches for a short time to give a group breath space, a wizard using slow time, a bard playing tunes to taunt mobs on each other so fort...

Hexipox

MisterZebub said:

Interesting how many of these little types of threads have been keeping this game on the front page the past week. And by interesting, I mean suspicious.

Probably because so many is looking forward to it and that there are a lot people who had their first mmo moments in the era this game is reviving!

linadragon

Hexipox said:

Well i just hope for some epic class end game abilities that really define the class giving them a group tool that makes them unique in a group. Be that druids create a circle of impenetrable branches for a short time to give a group breath space, a wizard using slow time, a bard playing tunes to taunt mobs on each other so fort...

Who is to say they will go end game at all? Much of EQ/EQ2 isn't "end game" heavy and I hope they frankly focus on the game world being big and leveling taking long enough that  the current treadmill of end game isn't a "thing"

Hexipox

linadragon said:

Hexipox said:

Well i just hope for some epic class end game abilities that really define the class giving them a group tool that makes them unique in a group. Be that druids create a circle of impenetrable branches for a short time to give a group breath space, a wizard using slow time, a bard playing tunes to taunt mobs on each other so fort...

Who is to say they will go end game at all? Much of EQ/EQ2 isn't "end game" heavy and I hope they frankly focus on the game world being big and leveling taking long enough that  the current treadmill of end game isn't a "thing"

Totally agree, think you got me wrong or I used the end game word wrong.. I totally look forward to not be at endgame after a week!

i ment endgame of the class, which easily can start attaching to the class at low/mid level - abilities that set that class endgame apart form other like "we could use a magician in this situation because of his x-endgame ability" or "if we had a ranger in this area we could bypass these creatures with his nature awareness" follow me?

note: just throwing out some random abilities

Wizardry

Well when you realize after playing EQ1...EQ2...Vanguard,their philosophies and ideals on game design have not changed.I also feel the scary part is this will be nothing more than EQ3 and likely not as good as EQ2.

I feel the teams Brad has been on have not learned anything about mistakes and just plain bad ideas.

I am not going to sit here and re-write game design 101,that is the teams job to make a quality game that intrigues us and we won't be intrigued for very long by a new skin,we NEED a new game.

Having said that,i keep reminding myself of the list of ideals they have in store and it  sounds solid enough.I just can't help feel as i have seen many times before,what is good on paper might just end up the same old  song and dance.

IMO a passionate gamer,especially one that likes mmorpg's which i would hope their team does,SHOULD have creative minds.They should have no problems coming up with new ways to keep us interested.Bottom line,who is going to afford the time and cost to put together lots of new systems,not a crowd funded game i'll tell you.

delete5230

How I look at it:


I'll not put a name tag or compare it to anything.


I see it as a crawl around the world with friends, trying to reach a destination or goal.  I don't need to compare it to any game.......It my or may not.....I don't care, I love to crawl with everyone having something to add to the group

ste2000

MisterZebub said:

Interesting how many of these little types of threads have been keeping this game on the front page the past week. And by interesting, I mean suspicious.

I guess you won't like my new thread then

Let's talk about Rats

MaximusNova

TENTING said:

Been thinking the same, but going to take it for a spin anyway. I really dont long back to EQ days at all though.

But from a PvEers point of view, what are our alternatives in 2017 anyway?

I don`t mind if the classes have the same role, but am sure the spells some might be the same some will be different. All i want from this game is to get back in a game were the community is essential for leveling and content.
A'm tiered of mmo`s were you practically play solo with the occasional dungeon or raid.    

Hexipox

MaximusNova said:

TENTING said:

Been thinking the same, but going to take it for a spin anyway. I really dont long back to EQ days at all though.

But from a PvEers point of view, what are our alternatives in 2017 anyway?

I don`t mind if the classes have the same role, but am sure the spells some might be the same some will be different. All i want from this game is to get back in a game were the community is essential for leveling and content.
A'm tiered of mmo`s were you practically play solo with the occasional dungeon or raid.    

Amen!

Soju

There's no such thing as too much EQ. Notice how almost every game since EQ has failed?  WoW just got lucky enough to capture a large, new audience, that never felt comfortable playing anything outside of WoW.


I welcome any EQ-like similarities they bring.

Osho

I can't imagine a copy of EQ1&2 and VG. At least I did't experience something like this while moving from EQ2 to VG. I guess it will be similar with diving in to the Pantheon gameplay.
At the same time I'll be more than happy if the overall gameplay feels like EQ or VG or even a fusion of EQ and VG in a new fantasy realm with its own new lore and group gameplay style with "hopefully just some" fresh new mechanical features.

Sovrath

ste2000 said:

MisterZebub said:

Interesting how many of these little types of threads have been keeping this game on the front page the past week. And by interesting, I mean suspicious.

I guess you won't like my new thread then

Let's talk about Rats

I agree that players should NOT be fighting small snakes and rats with weapons. This is really not acceptable and it brings a bit of the "ridiculous' to these games.

Having said that I don't share the OP's (or Wizardry's) stance on "new game". I don't care about a "new game" though I would like the developers to learn from their past efforts.

I"m still waiting for my "world". If Vanguard was still up and running I"d just be playing that and perhaps Black Desert and be done with it (maybe Lord of the Rings Online if they update the avatars, who knows).

Vanguard is the closest to what I thought mmo's would be. Everquest always had a bit of the "silly" (froglocks? really?) and I never really liked the art design. Same goes with Everquest 2. Vanguard's art design (and what I can see from Pantheon) fall in a good place for me.

So "yeah" bring it on, I'll be there "day one" if they can get this done and launch it.

ste2000

I like Pantheon to be an evolution not a copy of EQ.
Having said that, the only part I would copy from EQ would be the Class System.
I want the Classes to be unbalanced and heavily focused on one particular task.
I don't like "jack of all trades" Classes, unless it's a Bard of course.

Mendel

I've had this concern for awhile.  Graphic improvements appear to be the main selling point of this title, maybe with a bit of juggled abilities between classes and a thesaurus thrown at the terminology.  I just do not believe that these are the tools to build a new captivating game.

I am afraid the experience will be too much 'exactly like' 1999, particularly all the social issues that EQ1 inadvertently introduced.  Waiting 2 hours for a cleric because a shaman or druid can't do the job of healing, or waiting for an enchanter to finish crafting before joining us, or the warrior (not paladin or shadow knight -- they couldn't cut it) to find his way to zone X without dying half a dozen times.  If there are only a few combat roles, with a very few classes that can perform those functions, simply reduce the number of classes or builds or whatever to accommodate the way the community is expected to play.   If clerics, shamans and druids aren't interchangeable, get rid of the variations and make a single class, the healer, which has a better chance of becoming 1/6th of the population.

If people want to think that these type of flaws are the convention and are a desired element, that's their prerogative.  To me, incorporating these issues is a mistake that could threaten the success of this game.

centkin

Mendel said:

I've had this concern for awhile.  Graphic improvements appear to be the main selling point of this title, maybe with a bit of juggled abilities between classes and a thesaurus thrown at the terminology.  I just do not believe that these are the tools to build a new captivating game.

I am afraid the experience will be too much 'exactly like' 1999, particularly all the social issues that EQ1 inadvertently introduced.  Waiting 2 hours for a cleric because a shaman or druid can't do the job of healing, or waiting for an enchanter to finish crafting before joining us, or the warrior (not paladin or shadow knight -- they couldn't cut it) to find his way to zone X without dying half a dozen times.  If there are only a few combat roles, with a very few classes that can perform those functions, simply reduce the number of classes or builds or whatever to accommodate the way the community is expected to play.   If clerics, shamans and druids aren't interchangeable, get rid of the variations and make a single class, the healer, which has a better chance of becoming 1/6th of the population.

If people want to think that these type of flaws are the convention and are a desired element, that's their prerogative.  To me, incorporating these issues is a mistake that could threaten the success of this game.

Sheesh, as a shaman in EQ1, I was primary healer in a lot of situations.  Someone who will sit there and not do a dungeon simply because a specific flavor of healer or specific flavor of tank was not available was being silly.  Yes a cleric was somewhat better in the healing department, but I would rather have a good, well-equipped shaman healing a party than a lousy, poorly equipped cleric. 

Thing is though, (as a shaman), I was better at keeping a group alive than a cleric would be in some situations.  I was able to draw aggro midfight when necessary and then allow it to go back to the tank.  I stopped so many wipes // avoided so many deaths in dungeons like HARD Ldon missions. 

It made me wonder sometimes at people who specifically chose clerics for things like that. 

What is odd is for normal LDON there were a few times where I had to act as a tank.  (I was always interested in a high Armor value//# of hp as a shaman -- making it a bit more of a priority in my DKP choices than most shamen would do.)

I mean you have a Shaman, an Enchanter, a druid, and 3 DPS -- do you attempt it Y/N?  I'd tank in that situation.  Far better than just sitting around. 

Dullahan

As long as Pantheon doesn't create a mechanic like complete healing that makes a single class mandatory, I don't see a problem.

Complete healing is one thing from EQ that Pantheon absolutely should not emulate.

Darksworm

The game does seem a bit like plagiarism to me.  Completely shameless in the way they've basically cloned EverQuest.

Wellspring

I remember them talking about Clerics having the unique ability to pickup and move some giant shields, and use them to block passages, ect. And I believe each class will have unique things of their own similar to this in Pantheon.

Right now I believe their focus is on getting the base class mechanics down, then improve upon them and make the classes uniquely Pantheon.

They've already done this with the Races. The Gnomes and Dwarfs are uniquely Pantheon. I have no doubt the classes will be the same way, they just haven't finished them yet.