I want the same things apparently as some here but NOT the way SOE did it for years.
The ONLY way SOE created that "danger" feeling was by spamming a room ,small area with 20 linked mobs,which is also a reason i don't like specific classes designed to just stop the mad zerg attacks. I like controlled,relaxing danger,tough battles that are more about thinking than gear based or spam based.
I can think of the perfect reason these guys never got it right in the past.Remember when that room of 16 goblins in for example Runnyeye would swarm your tank?Ok now think about Rogue classes,how are you suppose to flank/behind attack mobs that are dying faster than you can move?Then if you don't kill the swarm quickly it overwhelms your tank so it is a lose lose design and imo a terrible one at that. So has this team of vets learned anything bout the past or so high on their past work,that we see repeat bad designs?
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I want the same things apparently as some here but NOT the way SOE did it for years.
The ONLY way SOE created that "danger" feeling was by spamming a room ,small area with 20 linked mobs,which is also a reason i don't like specific classes designed to just stop the mad zerg attacks. I like controlled,relaxing danger,tough battles that are more about thinking than gear based or spam based.
I can think of the perfect reason these guys never got it right in the past.Remember when that room of 16 goblins in for example Runnyeye would swarm your tank?Ok now think about Rogue classes,how are you suppose to flank/behind attack mobs that are dying faster than you can move?Then if you don't kill the swarm quickly it overwhelms your tank so it is a lose lose design and imo a terrible one at that. So has this team of vets learned anything bout the past or so high on their past work,that we see repeat bad designs?
Good....This is spot on
Controlled, relaxing danger.....This is a great way to describe it !
Example: Remember Scarlet Monastery in World of Warcraft ?..... VERY FEW KNEW HOW TO PLAY IT !
This dungeon had 4 separate parts ranging from level 30-39, yet done properly the entire thing could be done with a group of 35s, as long as a group understands what's really going on !
Two things happen in this dungeon with the human mobs:
1) The human fighters run away, and bring others. THEY NEEDED TO BE PULLED TO THE GROUP. 2) The human casters stand their ground. THEY NEEDED TO BE PULLED TO A PREVIOUS ROOM.
This was tactical. If you didn't know this you were fighting everything. This could be done the easy way (level 35s) or the hard way (level 40s).
I want to have that old feeling of danger, possibly worst than ever before.
All you need to get the feeling of pure dread and danger is to invest a large portion of your cash into this game. Then you will know pure terror.
Seriously though, I am hoping for the best, expecting the worst. I still can't forgive for Vanguard, so will wait till launch and initial reviews before giving Brad any cash.
They should add huge death penalties to the game, like losing a day's worth of exp at higher levels as well as needing to go back to your corpse naked in order to get all your gear back!
Corpse runs are a bit much. I'm down with a hefty xp loss, gear being severely damaged, even a small chance at a piece of random gear dropping, etc. But if I am dead with no gear, don't make me rely on other people to help me do a CR or I lose all my stuff. Sucks but I got to be at work in the morning bro.
There are plenty of times when someone could get their corpse on their own. It's an MMORPG though, and that should mean sometimes you have to rely on other people. If people want a game where they can do everything on their own, try a single player title.
Must be really nice to live in a part of the world, where there are no wars, no random or deliberate deaths, no sickness to fear, no old age to worry about.
Can I move in to where you guys live? Cause you seem to wanna find danger in games, while I play games to escape the reality of those things.
The death penalty in early EQ would be fine. It was one of the things that help build the community that existed in that game early on at least. The only time I had an issue getting my corpse in early EQ was once when the mobs got bugged at the zone in point of a dungeon. You actually would die before you finished zoning in. I did have an issue that the GM refused to help even though this was IMO a game bug. Anyway I did finally get my corpse but it took a raid size force. So the GMs should actually help when game bugs prevent you from getting your corpse and I hope they do in this game. Also I think your corpse should appear at some graveyard after a certain amount of time but with a much more severe penalty as I don't think anyone should ever lose all their equipment to death. Lots of things can prevent you from recovering your corpse such as lost of internet, your computer may blow up, ect
Must be really nice to live in a part of the world, where there are no wars, no random or deliberate deaths, no sickness to fear, no old age to worry about.
Can I move in to where you guys live? Cause you seem to wanna find danger in games, while I play games to escape the reality of those things.
Wow, so if people find that death in a video game enhances their experience, they must therefore be delusional or living in an alternate universe.
There are plenty of times when someone could get their corpse on their own. It's an MMORPG though, and that should mean sometimes you have to rely on other people. If people want a game where they can do everything on their own, try a single player title.
The problem with that is, what about when someone can't find the help they need? That's not being penalized due to game-play mechanics, that's being penalized because of shortfalls in the system itself. Needing a group to complete content is one thing, needing a group or being penalized/punished because you can't find one at that exact time is something else entirely.
A scenario for the purpose of example. A gaming group spends hours working at clearing a outpost or dungeon, one dies near the end. It's 12 am and all have to work in the morning, yet it would take hours to get back to that corpse. Player can't find any other groups going at the time. He just lost XP/items because the system is archaic and doesn't account for real situations devs have learned from for years.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think the death penalty wasn't so much the issue, it was moreso that you could lose levels. I think if people knew they couldn't lose levels, you can still have a reasonably harsh death penalty and it won't cause extreme butthurt.
The simple fact is that without some reasonably harsh penalty for getting killed, it removes any sense of fear or danger, as well as having to think through or plan your actions. If you know that when you die you're just gonna pop up with all your stuff, lose an inconsequential amount of XP and go along your way, then why should you have to plan the fight, why should you have to learn how to play better, why should you have to decide whether to go to the more dangerous dungeon with better loot than the easier dungeon with easier loot.
It boggles my mind that people sit here and come into this forum and argue that pantheon should be like every other MMO in existence. The reason this game exists is to get away from the faceroll content, the teleporting around, the lack of class interdependency etc etc.
Does it need to be as harsh and unforgiving as early EQ was? No, but it needs to be closer to that than it is to modern MMOs. Otherwise just hang up your hats, or release another POS cash shop laden game that gets forgotten about in 3 months.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
I think the death penalty wasn't so much the issue, it was moreso that you could lose levels. I think if people knew they couldn't lose levels, you can still have a reasonably harsh death penalty and it won't cause extreme butthurt.
The simple fact is that without some reasonably harsh penalty for getting killed, it removes any sense of fear or danger, as well as having to think through or plan your actions. If you know that when you die you're just gonna pop up with all your stuff, lose an inconsequential amount of XP and go along your way, then why should you have to plan the fight, why should you have to learn how to play better, why should you have to decide whether to go to the more dangerous dungeon with better loot than the easier dungeon with easier loot.
It boggles my mind that people sit here and come into this forum and argue that pantheon should be like every other MMO in existence. The reason this game exists is to get away from the faceroll content, the teleporting around, the lack of class interdependency etc etc.
Does it need to be as harsh and unforgiving as early EQ was? No, but it needs to be closer to that than it is to modern MMOs. Otherwise just hang up your hats, or release another POS cash shop laden game that gets forgotten about in 3 months.
No one is saying it has to be like every MMO. Most are simply sharing concerns about how they handle the negative effects (unintended consequences) that have been long standing in some of these designs being proposed. There were lots of system related problems with certain features of older games, hence why many of those systems were replaced or completely done away with as they had found better ways to represent those things, or they were found to be undesirable. .
What's truly mind boggling is thinking it has to be the other extreme that folks are asking for (modern games as you describe them).. That's essentially burying your head in the sand and missing what is actually being said.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Losing levels is absolutely necessary, otherwise rushing to max level is even more encouraged, as if we need anymore of that.
People need to stop crying about death penalties. Here an idea, pay the **** attention and maybe not die? I want people to think twice when trying to feign death through an entire dungeon to kill the boss. I want people to think twice before jumping in some pit with no ladder. People should be afraid of accidentally aggroing a wandering dragon. All this and more are the reasons this game even exists in the first place. Take that away and you're left with another watered down MMO, where you press autorun while playing with your phone.
Losing levels is absolutely necessary, otherwise rushing to max level is even more encouraged, as if we need anymore of that.
People need to stop crying about death penalties. Here an idea, pay the **** attention and maybe not die? I want people to think twice when trying to feign death through an entire dungeon to kill the boss. I want people to think twice before jumping in some pit with no ladder. People should be afraid of accidentally aggroing a wandering dragon. All this and more are the reasons this game even exists in the first place. Take that away and you're left with another watered down MMO, where you press autorun while playing with your phone.
That really depends on the leveling speed.If it takes 9 months (with old school time spent) then level-loss does not really have to be included. With fast leveling sure, that would mean that if you play well you level pretty fast while bad players never will get to max unless they spend all time grinding in a safe place.
Personally though do I believe the loss of an equipped gear is way worse then the loss of XP level, you can always grind back XP and that is honestly not that hard, just time consuming. Replacing a great piece of gear is another matter, that cool item you got from a hard dungeon (which with hard death penalty is not something you would run every day) is way harder to replace.
XP loss just means people will get back to camping spawn sites in groups, which honestly is rather easy, all you need is time.
And losing a random item each time you die will get the effects you describe as well, without making it possible to get it back by an easy camping session.
Of course, it do depend on how gear focused the game is. If gear matters little and is easy to get losing it would be no biggie but we all know Brad wouldn't design things that way.
Losing levels is absolutely necessary, otherwise rushing to max level is even more encouraged, as if we need anymore of that.
People need to stop crying about death penalties. Here an idea, pay the **** attention and maybe not die? I want people to think twice when trying to feign death through an entire dungeon to kill the boss. I want people to think twice before jumping in some pit with no ladder. People should be afraid of accidentally aggroing a wandering dragon. All this and more are the reasons this game even exists in the first place. Take that away and you're left with another watered down MMO, where you press autorun while playing with your phone.
If the game is designed to kill you, you're going to die, paying attention or not.
Death penalties are fine, it's just certain death penalties are better than others. If you want XP loss/level loss, just implement those things, if you want item loss, implement it. There are much better ways to handle this than corpse runs. Level loss/Xp can be implemented across the board based on risk of the encounter, the harder the fight, the more penalty on death. Item loss can be handled through item degradation systems. I'd prefer just straight up loss, rather than a boring function like corpse runs.
I also like downtime causing effects like combat fatigue, health pool wounds etc, that grow worse over time, until healed.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
What does the length of leveling matter? People will still rush to max level to avoid the death penalty. Max level characters should fear death the most, not the least. Level loss ensures this.
If the game is designed to kill you, you're going to die, paying attention or not.
Death penalties are fine, it's just certain death penalties are better than others. If you want XP loss/level loss, just implement those things, if you want item loss, implement it. There are much better ways to handle this than corpse runs. Level loss/Xp can be implemented across the board based on risk of the encounter, the harder the fight, the more penalty on death. Item loss can be handled through item degradation systems. I'd prefer just straight up loss, rather than a boring function like corpse runs.
I also like downtime causing effects like combat fatigue, health pool wounds etc, that grow worse over time, until healed.
Design just to kill you is poor design, they can do that with GM commands. The game should be designed for immersion and fear of death is part of that. Harsh death penalties aren't there with the assumption you should never die, it's to encourage doing everything in your power to stop it.
We don't need another MMO where max level toons run around with impunity, suiciding through dungeons because hey why not.
I think the death penalty wasn't so much the issue, it was moreso that you could lose levels. I think if people knew they couldn't lose levels, you can still have a reasonably harsh death penalty and it won't cause extreme butthurt.
The simple fact is that without some reasonably harsh penalty for getting killed, it removes any sense of fear or danger, as well as having to think through or plan your actions. If you know that when you die you're just gonna pop up with all your stuff, lose an inconsequential amount of XP and go along your way, then why should you have to plan the fight, why should you have to learn how to play better, why should you have to decide whether to go to the more dangerous dungeon with better loot than the easier dungeon with easier loot.
It boggles my mind that people sit here and come into this forum and argue that pantheon should be like every other MMO in existence. The reason this game exists is to get away from the faceroll content, the teleporting around, the lack of class interdependency etc etc.
Does it need to be as harsh and unforgiving as early EQ was? No, but it needs to be closer to that than it is to modern MMOs. Otherwise just hang up your hats, or release another POS cash shop laden game that gets forgotten about in 3 months.
No one is saying it has to be like every MMO. Most are simply sharing concerns about how they handle the negative effects (unintended consequences) that have been long standing in some of these designs being proposed. There were lots of system related problems with certain features of older games, hence why many of those systems were replaced or completely done away with as they had found better ways to represent those things, or they were found to be undesirable. .
What's truly mind boggling is thinking it has to be the other extreme that folks are asking for (modern games as you describe them).. That's essentially burying your head in the sand and missing what is actually being said.
It's up to Visionary Realms to keep the server populations adequate. My post is of course assuming that it wouldn't be impossible to go back to an area and find other people there, or leave that area and go to the nearest town or outpost and recruit help there.
Yes, those solutions do require some work, but that is working as intended if achieving anything is to matter.
There is only one thing that causes fear in a game and that's the penalty associated with death. Its not the death itself but what you lose by dying.
Thing is there are many penalties associated with death in an MMO like Pantheon. The first is not accomplishing what you set out to do. Another is being the cause of the group wiping. There's also a loss of xp, where applicable. What these have in common is a loss of time which hopefully is worth enough not to want to die.
I think there should be death penalties but not like EQ originally was. The risk/reward ratio was pretty low and I think Pantheon can do better.
I think the death penalty wasn't so much the issue, it was moreso that you could lose levels. I think if people knew they couldn't lose levels, you can still have a reasonably harsh death penalty and it won't cause extreme butthurt.
The simple fact is that without some reasonably harsh penalty for getting killed, it removes any sense of fear or danger, as well as having to think through or plan your actions. If you know that when you die you're just gonna pop up with all your stuff, lose an inconsequential amount of XP and go along your way, then why should you have to plan the fight, why should you have to learn how to play better, why should you have to decide whether to go to the more dangerous dungeon with better loot than the easier dungeon with easier loot.
It boggles my mind that people sit here and come into this forum and argue that pantheon should be like every other MMO in existence. The reason this game exists is to get away from the faceroll content, the teleporting around, the lack of class interdependency etc etc.
Does it need to be as harsh and unforgiving as early EQ was? No, but it needs to be closer to that than it is to modern MMOs. Otherwise just hang up your hats, or release another POS cash shop laden game that gets forgotten about in 3 months.
No one is saying it has to be like every MMO. Most are simply sharing concerns about how they handle the negative effects (unintended consequences) that have been long standing in some of these designs being proposed. There were lots of system related problems with certain features of older games, hence why many of those systems were replaced or completely done away with as they had found better ways to represent those things, or they were found to be undesirable. .
What's truly mind boggling is thinking it has to be the other extreme that folks are asking for (modern games as you describe them).. That's essentially burying your head in the sand and missing what is actually being said.
The only one burying their head in the sand is you. Go look at the posts in this thread and other threads. Just recently there was one where a guy was arguing for the complete removal of death penalties because in his view they caused people to go from hunky dorey twiddly dinks to hating the mere sight of each other, that it caused cascading blame, etc etc. These kind of posts crop up weekly on this forum.
I agree with you that there were lots of system problems and that they were later changed. I'll give you an example. In EQ when they came out with Planes of Power. The created "graveyards". This was a change I fully supported. The reason was that if after 24 hours you hadn't retrieved your corpse, it would pop up in the graveyard. This was important because there were situations, albeit rare, where you could lose literally everything. I for example had a raid wipe in fear with my guild once, my corpse was less than 12 hours from rotting and were it not for one of the premier guilds on the server coming in and helping us clear up to our corpses, many of us would have lost all of our items permanently.
Nobody is saying that we want a carbon copy of EQ, what we are saying is that we want many of the aspects of EQ that we feel worked in unison to create a much better game than what is out now. I and most of the fans of this project feel pretty strongly that a removal of a harsh death penalty is one of the primary reasons for the ultra casualization of modern mmos and thus is why were are so anal retentive when people suggest removing it.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
What does the length of leveling matter? People will still rush to max level to avoid the death penalty. Max level characters should fear death the most, not the least. Level loss ensures this.
Actually based on that argument then item loss would be the most fear inducing. I'll be honest, level loss really wasn't a concern in EQ and in P99 even at high level raiding where you might wipe 30 or 40 times in the course of a raid. The only time it was an issue was literally RIGHT AFTER you leveled and you hadn't had a chance to build up that buffer. Most of the "hardcore" raiders did a lot of item camping (fungi tunic in sebilis for example) and you made a pretty decent amount of XP doing that.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Comments
The ONLY way SOE created that "danger" feeling was by spamming a room ,small area with 20 linked mobs,which is also a reason i don't like specific classes designed to just stop the mad zerg attacks.
I like controlled,relaxing danger,tough battles that are more about thinking than gear based or spam based.
I can think of the perfect reason these guys never got it right in the past.Remember when that room of 16 goblins in for example Runnyeye would swarm your tank?Ok now think about Rogue classes,how are you suppose to flank/behind attack mobs that are dying faster than you can move?Then if you don't kill the swarm quickly it overwhelms your tank so it is a lose lose design and imo a terrible one at that.
So has this team of vets learned anything bout the past or so high on their past work,that we see repeat bad designs?
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Good....This is spot on
Controlled, relaxing danger.....This is a great way to describe it !
Example:
Remember Scarlet Monastery in World of Warcraft ?..... VERY FEW KNEW HOW TO PLAY IT !
This dungeon had 4 separate parts ranging from level 30-39, yet done properly the entire thing could be done with a group of 35s, as long as a group understands what's really going on !
Two things happen in this dungeon with the human mobs:
1) The human fighters run away, and bring others. THEY NEEDED TO BE PULLED TO THE GROUP.
2) The human casters stand their ground. THEY NEEDED TO BE PULLED TO A PREVIOUS ROOM.
This was tactical. If you didn't know this you were fighting everything. This could be done the easy way (level 35s) or the hard way (level 40s).
Caseyx
Yes ?.....No ?
Seriously though, I am hoping for the best, expecting the worst. I still can't forgive for Vanguard, so will wait till launch and initial reviews before giving Brad any cash.
Can I move in to where you guys live? Cause you seem to wanna find danger in games, while I play games to escape the reality of those things.
So the GMs should actually help when game bugs prevent you from getting your corpse and I hope they do in this game.
Also I think your corpse should appear at some graveyard after a certain amount of time but with a much more severe penalty as I don't think anyone should ever lose all their equipment to death. Lots of things can prevent you from recovering your corpse such as lost of internet, your computer may blow up, ect
Condescend much?
A scenario for the purpose of example. A gaming group spends hours working at clearing a outpost or dungeon, one dies near the end. It's 12 am and all have to work in the morning, yet it would take hours to get back to that corpse. Player can't find any other groups going at the time. He just lost XP/items because the system is archaic and doesn't account for real situations devs have learned from for years.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think the death penalty wasn't so much the issue, it was moreso that you could lose levels. I think if people knew they couldn't lose levels, you can still have a reasonably harsh death penalty and it won't cause extreme butthurt.
The simple fact is that without some reasonably harsh penalty for getting killed, it removes any sense of fear or danger, as well as having to think through or plan your actions. If you know that when you die you're just gonna pop up with all your stuff, lose an inconsequential amount of XP and go along your way, then why should you have to plan the fight, why should you have to learn how to play better, why should you have to decide whether to go to the more dangerous dungeon with better loot than the easier dungeon with easier loot.
It boggles my mind that people sit here and come into this forum and argue that pantheon should be like every other MMO in existence. The reason this game exists is to get away from the faceroll content, the teleporting around, the lack of class interdependency etc etc.
Does it need to be as harsh and unforgiving as early EQ was? No, but it needs to be closer to that than it is to modern MMOs. Otherwise just hang up your hats, or release another POS cash shop laden game that gets forgotten about in 3 months.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
What's truly mind boggling is thinking it has to be the other extreme that folks are asking for (modern games as you describe them).. That's essentially burying your head in the sand and missing what is actually being said.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
People need to stop crying about death penalties. Here an idea, pay the **** attention and maybe not die? I want people to think twice when trying to feign death through an entire dungeon to kill the boss. I want people to think twice before jumping in some pit with no ladder. People should be afraid of accidentally aggroing a wandering dragon. All this and more are the reasons this game even exists in the first place. Take that away and you're left with another watered down MMO, where you press autorun while playing with your phone.
Personally though do I believe the loss of an equipped gear is way worse then the loss of XP level, you can always grind back XP and that is honestly not that hard, just time consuming. Replacing a great piece of gear is another matter, that cool item you got from a hard dungeon (which with hard death penalty is not something you would run every day) is way harder to replace.
XP loss just means people will get back to camping spawn sites in groups, which honestly is rather easy, all you need is time.
And losing a random item each time you die will get the effects you describe as well, without making it possible to get it back by an easy camping session.
Of course, it do depend on how gear focused the game is. If gear matters little and is easy to get losing it would be no biggie but we all know Brad wouldn't design things that way.
Death penalties are fine, it's just certain death penalties are better than others. If you want XP loss/level loss, just implement those things, if you want item loss, implement it. There are much better ways to handle this than corpse runs. Level loss/Xp can be implemented across the board based on risk of the encounter, the harder the fight, the more penalty on death. Item loss can be handled through item degradation systems. I'd prefer just straight up loss, rather than a boring function like corpse runs.
I also like downtime causing effects like combat fatigue, health pool wounds etc, that grow worse over time, until healed.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Design just to kill you is poor design, they can do that with GM commands. The game should be designed for immersion and fear of death is part of that. Harsh death penalties aren't there with the assumption you should never die, it's to encourage doing everything in your power to stop it.
We don't need another MMO where max level toons run around with impunity, suiciding through dungeons because hey why not.
Yes, those solutions do require some work, but that is working as intended if achieving anything is to matter.
I think there should be death penalties but not like EQ originally was. The risk/reward ratio was pretty low and I think Pantheon can do better.
The only one burying their head in the sand is you. Go look at the posts in this thread and other threads. Just recently there was one where a guy was arguing for the complete removal of death penalties because in his view they caused people to go from hunky dorey twiddly dinks to hating the mere sight of each other, that it caused cascading blame, etc etc. These kind of posts crop up weekly on this forum.
I agree with you that there were lots of system problems and that they were later changed. I'll give you an example. In EQ when they came out with Planes of Power. The created "graveyards". This was a change I fully supported. The reason was that if after 24 hours you hadn't retrieved your corpse, it would pop up in the graveyard. This was important because there were situations, albeit rare, where you could lose literally everything. I for example had a raid wipe in fear with my guild once, my corpse was less than 12 hours from rotting and were it not for one of the premier guilds on the server coming in and helping us clear up to our corpses, many of us would have lost all of our items permanently.
Nobody is saying that we want a carbon copy of EQ, what we are saying is that we want many of the aspects of EQ that we feel worked in unison to create a much better game than what is out now. I and most of the fans of this project feel pretty strongly that a removal of a harsh death penalty is one of the primary reasons for the ultra casualization of modern mmos and thus is why were are so anal retentive when people suggest removing it.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Actually based on that argument then item loss would be the most fear inducing. I'll be honest, level loss really wasn't a concern in EQ and in P99 even at high level raiding where you might wipe 30 or 40 times in the course of a raid. The only time it was an issue was literally RIGHT AFTER you leveled and you hadn't had a chance to build up that buffer. Most of the "hardcore" raiders did a lot of item camping (fungi tunic in sebilis for example) and you made a pretty decent amount of XP doing that.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche