The problem with the sub based only games of yonder I had was that it was blatantly obvious the games were built around keeping you subbed for as long as possible.
EQ is a prime example of that.
The leveling process was mind-numbingly shallow that it didn't need the long leveling. Corpse runs, long travel times, slow experience gains, forced down times after combat etc.
I would never pay a monthly fee for a mmo unless it was something totally amazing.
I'm guessing you've never been a member of a club or organization that has monthly or yearly dues.
Club is real life..mmo is game...
u cant own a club.. but u can own a game...
subs is like rent....buy is like owning it..
i never said i want free to play game
No, you don't own any of your games. You pay to license the game binary and assets for your own personal use, you only own whatever box and physical media that happened to come with it.
Yes, you can own a club. In fact, I don't know of any clubs that don't have some sort of ownership.
You can own a game, but that means something entirely different than what you are thinking - it means you created it or funded its development, and you then own the code, the IP (or license to existing IP), the rights, and everything that goes with the game. It's not impossible but is unusual for an individual to own the rights to a game, especially a AAA game.
still buy is better than rent (sub)
what if im broke that month? no game for me?
I heard Minesweeper is still free.
Man, this dude is cancerous..
Go outside your cave, get a job that paid you decently, and you can sub to some MMOs after you earned your first salary.
When you don't want the truth, you will make up your own truth.
If people aren't giving money for your game, then your game isn't good enough. That I think is the main problem, games aren't good enough for people to pay for a sub.
I dont know why we argue about this so much...Theres like 5 games that still have a sub model and none of them are worth subbing to so its a moot point....To me the sub model is as outdated as paying someone to pump your gas...It just isnt done anymore...The times have changed get with it people.
I dont know why we argue about this so much...Theres like 5 games that still have a sub model and none of them are worth subbing to so its a moot point....To me the sub model is as outdated as paying someone to pump your gas...It just isnt done anymore...The times have changed get with it people.
I would never pay a monthly fee for a mmo unless it was something totally amazing.
I'm guessing you've never been a member of a club or organization that has monthly or yearly dues.
Club is real life..mmo is game...
u cant own a club.. but u can own a game...
subs is like rent....buy is like owning it..
i never said i want free to play game
No, you don't own any of your games. You pay to license the game binary and assets for your own personal use, you only own whatever box and physical media that happened to come with it.
Yes, you can own a club. In fact, I don't know of any clubs that don't have some sort of ownership.
You can own a game, but that means something entirely different than what you are thinking - it means you created it or funded its development, and you then own the code, the IP (or license to existing IP), the rights, and everything that goes with the game. It's not impossible but is unusual for an individual to own the rights to a game, especially a AAA game.
I would never pay a monthly fee for a mmo unless it was something totally amazing.
I'm guessing you've never been a member of a club or organization that has monthly or yearly dues.
Club is real life..mmo is game...
u cant own a club.. but u can own a game...
subs is like rent....buy is like owning it..
i never said i want free to play game
No, you don't own any of your games. You pay to license the game binary and assets for your own personal use, you only own whatever box and physical media that happened to come with it.
Yes, you can own a club. In fact, I don't know of any clubs that don't have some sort of ownership.
You can own a game, but that means something entirely different than what you are thinking - it means you created it or funded its development, and you then own the code, the IP (or license to existing IP), the rights, and everything that goes with the game. It's not impossible but is unusual for an individual to own the rights to a game, especially a AAA game.
I dont know why we argue about this so much...Theres like 5 games that still have a sub model and none of them are worth subbing to so its a moot point....To me the sub model is as outdated as paying someone to pump your gas...It just isnt done anymore...The times have changed get with it people.
What world are you living in? Most of the AAA titles have a sub option. It is ok you don't play them, but they have far more subscribers than most other games.
I dont know why we argue about this so much...Theres like 5 games that still have a sub model and none of them are worth subbing to so its a moot point....To me the sub model is as outdated as paying someone to pump your gas...It just isnt done anymore...The times have changed get with it people.
Just because you don't think any of the sub games are worth subbing to does not make it reality or a "Moot Point"
Here is the problem I see with all of these F2P games.
1) They almost always have some sort of Founder Pack to purchase which rewards the player with a bunch of P2W stuff. 2) They almost always have a premium subscription which gives you more P2W stuff. 3) They almost always have a cash shop with even moooore P2W stuff.
So yeah you can totally play this game for free for a month until you get bored or sick of all the Wallet Warriors destroying you or the fact that your leveling 50% slower than a guy with a premium subscription. The company makes a heap of money off the new game hype then a few months down the road the game is all but dead. The company will still do stuff with the game but in reality they made shit loads of money in the hype months from their 3 different Payment Options (which more people than you probably think pay into them all) so who cares they can start working on their next big money grab game.
So you are telling me that all that crap I just listed, which is becoming the norm in MMO's today are better than you just having to pay $30 - $40 for the game and then $10 - $15 a month for a subscription where everyone is on the same playing field. The company really wants the game to succeed because they are making their money over time not as a big hype lump at the launch of the game. There is no P2W so people won't have that to cry about.
The only reason the "Times Have Changed" is because gamer's today feel entitled to having everything for free. There are so many people out there who actually think all these games should not only be F2P but also have no form of cash shop / subscription / basically zero way for the company that made the game to make money.
My opinion the Sub Model was and is still the best model for MMO's if you truly want to plkay a game where everything is on the same level. People don't have huge advantages because they have a deep wallet to sink into the game. Not to mention the content past sub games have come out with were so much better than most of these MMO's today.
That literally does not make sense. Pay 2 Win is not even a subscription type. You're trying to compare two different things.
Maybe you should elaborate?
Most free to play games out there ALSO have a subscription option which gives people with a subscription benefits that those who don't pay wont have which is a form of Pay to Win.
Games that are Buy to Play with a Subscription are not pay to win because everyone has to pay for that same subscription which only allows you to play the game not give you extra benefits.
That literally does not make sense. Pay 2 Win is not even a subscription type. You're trying to compare two different things.
Maybe you should elaborate?
Most free to play games out there ALSO have a subscription option which gives people with a subscription benefits that those who don't pay wont have which is a form of Pay to Win.
Games that are Buy to Play with a Subscription are not pay to win because everyone has to pay for that same subscription which only allows you to play the game not give you extra benefits.
So not really sure what your point is.
Actually, games that are B2P with a subscription are just regular subscription games, if its an optional subscription then it usually means there is some benefit to doing so, an example such as BDO with its 30 day VIP packages, you get extra inventory slots, xp bonuses and weight limit increases, to name a few. P2P games that you can only play by paying a subscription, put everyone on a level playing field, the only advantages that players have are those they create for themselves through game play and social networking. What it means when a game has an optional subscription, is that those who pay the optional subscription have the fuller experience of the game, those who don't pay it obviously are at a disadvantage, its not pay to win, its just none subscribers having a subsidised and reduced featured game play experience, what i don't understand, is why do people who have no intention of paying, have the expectation that they are somehow entitled to more than this? Personally, i think anyone who doesn't pay their own way, is something of a leech and they should be grateful they get to play at all, time not so long ago, they would not have had that option.
That literally does not make sense. Pay 2 Win is not even a subscription type. You're trying to compare two different things.
Maybe you should elaborate?
Most free to play games out there ALSO have a subscription option which gives people with a subscription benefits that those who don't pay wont have which is a form of Pay to Win.
Games that are Buy to Play with a Subscription are not pay to win because everyone has to pay for that same subscription which only allows you to play the game not give you extra benefits.
So not really sure what your point is.
Actually, games that are B2P with a subscription are just regular subscription games, if its an optional subscription then it usually means there is some benefit to doing so, an example such as BDO with its 30 day VIP packages, you get extra inventory slots, xp bonuses and weight limit increases, to name a few. P2P games that you can only play by paying a subscription, put everyone on a level playing field, the only advantages that players have are those they create for themselves through game play and social networking. What it means when a game has an optional subscription, is that those who pay the optional subscription have the fuller experience of the game, those who don't pay it obviously are at a disadvantage, its not pay to win, its just none subscribers having a subsidised and reduced featured game play experience, what i don't understand, is why do people who have no intention of paying, have the expectation that they are somehow entitled to more than this? Personally, i think anyone who doesn't pay their own way, is something of a leech and they should be grateful they get to play at all, time not so long ago, they would not have had that option.
It is fairly simple. If, like you and me, you have spent long periods of time playing subscription games then that is normal. Having a striped down version for free to play is perfectly sensible.
However, if your idea of normal is free to play, then, having a premium subscription tier is easily seen as pay to win.
Personally I think this is a fallacy, the subscription tier is the normal service and free to play is the bargain basement option with a penalty for not paying your way.
I have no problem with cash shops, even if they give small advantages. Most of what cash shops sell, even in P2W games, is cosmetic. What I would like to see is tiered subscriptions. Let's take ESO for example. Getting a sub is a given with that game. You get access to all DLC; game, AA and crafting XP bonuses; an unlimited bag for crafting materials; and to top it all off, you get 1500 crowns to spend in the cash shop every month when you sub. A sub is $14.95 a month, which is the same cost as buying 1500 crowns.
Their cash shop is cosmetic and convenience only. They have one of the least P2W cash shops in any game out there (or at least it was until RNG boxes; I have not played since those were introduced as I am on a break from that game). Every convenience item in the cash shop can be crafted or found in game, and there is not a whole lot of things better than when you are in a long dungeon than going into the cash shop to buy repair kits or food that you forgot to buy/make before you started.
However, long time players have so many crowns saved that they buy the DLC with them. So a good part of the reason to sub is gone. How about making tiered subs;
1 - $8.99 - all DLC and 750 crowns a month 2 - $8.99 - all of the XP and crafting bonuses, the crafting bag and 750 crowns a month 3 - $14.95 - Same as now 4 - $24.99 - Same as current but with bigger AA XP & crafting bonuses, a bonus to inventory and/or bank slots, 2500 crowns a month and a set of 5-10 RNG keys.
#1 would be great for 'travelers', people that come and go in the game. #2 would be great for those that own all of the DLCs. #4 would be for people that love the game and don't mind paying for the best experience.
And of course most players would be very happy with #3.
The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!
That literally does not make sense. Pay 2 Win is not even a subscription type. You're trying to compare two different things.
Maybe you should elaborate?
Most free to play games out there ALSO have a subscription option which gives people with a subscription benefits that those who don't pay wont have which is a form of Pay to Win.
Games that are Buy to Play with a Subscription are not pay to win because everyone has to pay for that same subscription which only allows you to play the game not give you extra benefits.
So not really sure what your point is.
Actually, games that are B2P with a subscription are just regular subscription games, if its an optional subscription then it usually means there is some benefit to doing so, an example such as BDO with its 30 day VIP packages, you get extra inventory slots, xp bonuses and weight limit increases, to name a few. P2P games that you can only play by paying a subscription, put everyone on a level playing field, the only advantages that players have are those they create for themselves through game play and social networking. What it means when a game has an optional subscription, is that those who pay the optional subscription have the fuller experience of the game, those who don't pay it obviously are at a disadvantage, its not pay to win, its just none subscribers having a subsidised and reduced featured game play experience, what i don't understand, is why do people who have no intention of paying, have the expectation that they are somehow entitled to more than this? Personally, i think anyone who doesn't pay their own way, is something of a leech and they should be grateful they get to play at all, time not so long ago, they would not have had that option.
A game with an optional subscription that gives those who pay a edge up or benefits that those who don't pay is the definition of Pay 2 Win... You are paying money every month to be better or have an advantage over those that don't.
People seem to think the only real P2W is when you can literally tern real life cash into in game items which is not the case. There are many different forms of P2W some more drastic than others and some are really of no significance but it is still there. Anytime you can spend money on some part of the game to gain a leg up or benefit over those who don't it is considered a form of P2W.
- Founder Packs - Depending on the amount of money you pay you increase the amount of benefits and extra things you get with founder packs. You gain a benefit for paying for these over those who don't by definition P2W.
- Optional Subscription Games - Typically experience, gold, inventor or bank increases and stuff like that. On the lower end of P2W but you still have an advantage over those who don't pay for this.
- Cash Shops - This can either be the biggest form of P2W or not for a game. I will user Black Desert Online (At Launch) and Archeage as examples.
= Black Desert Online (At Launch) had mostly convienece items to buy. They would give the buyers an advantage but you could not turn real life cash straight into in game gear.
= Archeage was the opposite. You could literally turn real life cash into end game gear. This is the form of P2W most people acknowledge because it gives the people who pay the biggest benefit. That doesn't mean the other forms are not P2W also just less drastic.
The only way to create a game where everyone is on the same playing field and everyone has an equal opportunity to make it to end game is a forced subscription model everyone has to pay monthly to play the game so the game company makes money but also is able to give its players more content and no one is crying that bob spent $1,000 last week and has all the end game items and no one can compete except Jim who also spent $1,000 on his gear.
Comments
EQ is a prime example of that.
The leveling process was mind-numbingly shallow that it didn't need the long leveling. Corpse runs, long travel times, slow experience gains, forced down times after combat etc.
Man, this dude is cancerous..
Go outside your cave, get a job that paid you decently, and you can sub to some MMOs after you earned your first salary.
When you don't want the truth, you will make up your own truth.
These boards... /facepalm
bring community 1st
When you don't want the truth, you will make up your own truth.
Here is the problem I see with all of these F2P games.
1) They almost always have some sort of Founder Pack to purchase which rewards the player with a bunch of P2W stuff.
2) They almost always have a premium subscription which gives you more P2W stuff.
3) They almost always have a cash shop with even moooore P2W stuff.
So yeah you can totally play this game for free for a month until you get bored or sick of all the Wallet Warriors destroying you or the fact that your leveling 50% slower than a guy with a premium subscription. The company makes a heap of money off the new game hype then a few months down the road the game is all but dead. The company will still do stuff with the game but in reality they made shit loads of money in the hype months from their 3 different Payment Options (which more people than you probably think pay into them all) so who cares they can start working on their next big money grab game.
So you are telling me that all that crap I just listed, which is becoming the norm in MMO's today are better than you just having to pay $30 - $40 for the game and then $10 - $15 a month for a subscription where everyone is on the same playing field. The company really wants the game to succeed because they are making their money over time not as a big hype lump at the launch of the game. There is no P2W so people won't have that to cry about.
The only reason the "Times Have Changed" is because gamer's today feel entitled to having everything for free. There are so many people out there who actually think all these games should not only be F2P but also have no form of cash shop / subscription / basically zero way for the company that made the game to make money.
My opinion the Sub Model was and is still the best model for MMO's if you truly want to plkay a game where everything is on the same level. People don't have huge advantages because they have a deep wallet to sink into the game. Not to mention the content past sub games have come out with were so much better than most of these MMO's today.
Most free to play games out there ALSO have a subscription option which gives people with a subscription benefits that those who don't pay wont have which is a form of Pay to Win.
Games that are Buy to Play with a Subscription are not pay to win because everyone has to pay for that same subscription which only allows you to play the game not give you extra benefits.
So not really sure what your point is.
P2P games that you can only play by paying a subscription, put everyone on a level playing field, the only advantages that players have are those they create for themselves through game play and social networking. What it means when a game has an optional subscription, is that those who pay the optional subscription have the fuller experience of the game, those who don't pay it obviously are at a disadvantage, its not pay to win, its just none subscribers having a subsidised and reduced featured game play experience, what i don't understand, is why do people who have no intention of paying, have the expectation that they are somehow entitled to more than this?
Personally, i think anyone who doesn't pay their own way, is something of a leech and they should be grateful they get to play at all, time not so long ago, they would not have had that option.
However, if your idea of normal is free to play, then, having a premium subscription tier is easily seen as pay to win.
Personally I think this is a fallacy, the subscription tier is the normal service and free to play is the bargain basement option with a penalty for not paying your way.
Their cash shop is cosmetic and convenience only. They have one of the least P2W cash shops in any game out there (or at least it was until RNG boxes; I have not played since those were introduced as I am on a break from that game). Every convenience item in the cash shop can be crafted or found in game, and there is not a whole lot of things better than when you are in a long dungeon than going into the cash shop to buy repair kits or food that you forgot to buy/make before you started.
However, long time players have so many crowns saved that they buy the DLC with them. So a good part of the reason to sub is gone. How about making tiered subs;
1 - $8.99 - all DLC and 750 crowns a month
2 - $8.99 - all of the XP and crafting bonuses, the crafting bag and 750 crowns a month
3 - $14.95 - Same as now
4 - $24.99 - Same as current but with bigger AA XP & crafting bonuses, a bonus to inventory and/or bank slots, 2500 crowns a month and a set of 5-10 RNG keys.
#1 would be great for 'travelers', people that come and go in the game. #2 would be great for those that own all of the DLCs. #4 would be for people that love the game and don't mind paying for the best experience.
And of course most players would be very happy with #3.
The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!
People seem to think the only real P2W is when you can literally tern real life cash into in game items which is not the case. There are many different forms of P2W some more drastic than others and some are really of no significance but it is still there. Anytime you can spend money on some part of the game to gain a leg up or benefit over those who don't it is considered a form of P2W.
- Founder Packs - Depending on the amount of money you pay you increase the amount of benefits and extra things you get with founder packs. You gain a benefit for paying for these over those who don't by definition P2W.
- Optional Subscription Games - Typically experience, gold, inventor or bank increases and stuff like that. On the lower end of P2W but you still have an advantage over those who don't pay for this.
- Cash Shops - This can either be the biggest form of P2W or not for a game. I will user Black Desert Online (At Launch) and Archeage as examples.
= Black Desert Online (At Launch) had mostly convienece items to buy. They would give the buyers an advantage but you could not turn real life cash straight into in game gear.
= Archeage was the opposite. You could literally turn real life cash into end game gear. This is the form of P2W most people acknowledge because it gives the people who pay the biggest benefit. That doesn't mean the other forms are not P2W also just less drastic.
The only way to create a game where everyone is on the same playing field and everyone has an equal opportunity to make it to end game is a forced subscription model everyone has to pay monthly to play the game so the game company makes money but also is able to give its players more content and no one is crying that bob spent $1,000 last week and has all the end game items and no one can compete except Jim who also spent $1,000 on his gear.