What I see happening is Daybreak shutting down these two MMOs but holding on to the IP so they can spin other games off. Daybreak is not going to spend money on 2 older MMOs that just are not making money, Trubine would have kept these games had they been making money. I am sorry but it is true. Don't believe me? Daybreak is owned by an investment company that buys new companies, takes certain product it wants and shuts down others. They use this as tools to get rights to certain IPs so they can use the IP in their own way to make money.
They can't. The IP belongs to SSG, not DBG. All Daybreak Games is doing is publishing the game. SSG is the development team from Turbine that worked on these two games. All that happened is they spun out of Turbine and formed their own studio. Then they shopped around for a publisher and chose Daybreak Games.
Daybreak can't shut down the games, they don't own them. They publish them only. It's not comparable to Daybreak shutting down games it owned.
They can choose to stop publishing them and if SSG can't find another publisher, then they effectively close down.
Yes DBG could - presumably at the end of the agreed contract - stop "publishing" the games.
Now if I knew what exactly "publishing" means then I could say what impact this might have. At a guess maybe DBG are handling the "external" cash purchases - if people buy expansions or points.
As far as "publishing" the game though: newslash LotR is in its 10th year. Other than changing Turbine to SSG pretty much nothing has changed. I have scoured the pages and - nope - no mention of DBG. To download a copy of either game you go to the SSG page not a DBG page. https://www.lotro.com/en
I can understand people being sceptical about DBG but when it comes to them being able to "close down" LotR or DDO no. If that happens it won't be because of DBG.
Well, if I understand game publishing the same way I understand other entertainment publishing ventures, then it works like this:
1. The creator (developer, in this case) makes the product. 2. The publisher provides services like the website, advertising, platform (servers, in this case), billing, account management, support, etc.
According to the information on the Turbine site, DBG provides publishing services. #2 is why LOTRO/DDO fans should worry about the longevity of the games, IMO. DBG could pull the rug out at any time and it would be a herculean effort to recover for a small company like SSG.
I imagine there is a contract in place.
Would you sign a contract that states that "at any time" their business partner can "pull the rug out from under you"? I imagine not. Then why would they?
Lord of the Rings Online most likely has to make a certain amount of money for Daybreak. Or, maybe there is some sort of thing where they make a certain percentage.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Wow, people are really misinterpreting Daybreak's role here...Read some before commenting.
So, you believe a publisher can't destroy a game? Cause that's Daybreak's role here. They didn't pick up the titles out of the kindness of their hearts.
The burning fire that destroys all can be considered bright.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Big companies like Sony & WB don't want the heat from people who may try to sue if the game shuts down that they spent thousands on so they send it to DB until the right time comes along to shut it down.
Daybreak can't shut down the games, they don't own them. They publish them only. It's not comparable to Daybreak shutting down games it owned.
They can choose to stop publishing them and if SSG can't find another publisher, then they effectively close down.
Yes DBG could - presumably at the end of the agreed contract - stop "publishing" the games.
Now if I knew what exactly "publishing" means then I could say what impact this might have. At a guess maybe DBG are handling the "external" cash purchases - if people buy expansions or points.
As far as "publishing" the game though: newslash LotR is in its 10th year. Other than changing Turbine to SSG pretty much nothing has changed. I have scoured the pages and - nope - no mention of DBG. To download a copy of either game you go to the SSG page not a DBG page. https://www.lotro.com/en
I can understand people being sceptical about DBG but when it comes to them being able to "close down" LotR or DDO no. If that happens it won't be because of DBG.
Well, if I understand game publishing the same way I understand other entertainment publishing ventures, then it works like this:
1. The creator (developer, in this case) makes the product. 2. The publisher provides services like the website, advertising, platform (servers, in this case), billing, account management, support, etc.
According to the information on the Turbine site, DBG provides publishing services. #2 is why LOTRO/DDO fans should worry about the longevity of the games, IMO. DBG could pull the rug out at any time and it would be a herculean effort to recover for a small company like SSG.
I understand them as well.
No argument with 1. Turbine made the game - 10 years ago.
As for 2 this always comes down to what exactly is in the contract. Its not a new game. Checking your list: - website - no; they are using the existing site. - advertising - no evidence yet, its the same, with the new expansion we will know for sure. - platform (servers in this case) - no. - billing - as I said above this is a possible; this was previously done by a third party. - account management - according to SSG this has been transferred to SSG which would be no change.. - Support - apparently this is still Turbine! So it doesn't look like DBG will be "raising tickets".
So I don't see it being an issue - even if DBG closed. LotR fans have been worrying about the game for a long time; and on the list of things to be worried about this doesn't rank highly at all.
Quite a heated debate, and mostly just about DBG, with guesses about stuff which was already answered... (seriously, nobody's following Suzie's news section? :winky: ) So, first things first, nice interview Garrett :waving:
Second, a shameless plug again, the recap of Chris' interview on LotROreporter http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/comment/7107299/#Comment_7107299 about the split with Turbine, what is DBG's role, what are the plans with the two games (interesting, but it was a couple days before the Massively interview, and there was no mention of High Elves yet... )
Third, @QuarterStack ; @LoudWisper , AC stayed with Turbine after the split, and they already announced the closure, so AC will be gone soon. @ketzerei84 ;
Yep, Ravenloft will be added to DDO with the next expansion, and
playable dragonborn as well. For All-Access, they said in the interview
above, it won't happen, neither between DDO and LotRO, nor between these
two and the rest of the DBG games, since SSG and DBG accounts will remain separate.
Glad to see LotRO might be getting some love, again.
It had been my go-to game even after the Fangorn update. Then's when the RNG went insane, and we were 8 months into what would turn into 2+ years of nonstop evacuation of villagers. Trappings of the source material, I suppose.
Never could get into "Big Battles"; never felt like I was doing anything that meant anything. Minas Tirith would turn out to be a great main questline smothered in Big Battles and busy work, being a delivery boy running from one end and level of the city to another...
Hate to pick apart a game I loved so much. I will come back to play when all of this gets done, though I may end up just bee-lining the main story. After playing Witcher 3 I can't help but think secondary quests can be pretty special, too. And if they aren't, I just can't enjoy doing them, anymore.
Do you really think Daybreak a company where MMOs are going to, to get shut down is going to improve LOTRO? Add to that the licenses is only renewed THROUGH 2017. So if Daybreak is not making money do you see it getting renewed after that?
Sorry but LOTRO should be shut down just like several other MMORPGs right now. DDO being another one.
Daybreak has nothing to do with the license or development of either game. They will only be the publisher. Standing stone owns the licenses and is responsible for development.
Yea and what has Daybreak done so far? Kill off developer jobs let go of management offshore all the work and put these games into maintenance mode. Do you think LOTRO or DDO are some special snowflakes? The games are done. Standing Stone changes are in coming, do you believe this interview will usher in the change they are saying it will? The same nonsense was talked about when SOE became Daybreak, the same SOMETHING SPECIAL WILL HAPPEN nonsense was talked about. What Happen? EQNext shut down, developers fired, Management fired games put into maintenance mode. Likely they will sell off IP assets OR try to make a spin off of these IPs.
Daybreak has yet to do anything not consistent with investment/venture companies looking to obtain assets to sell or rebuild in their own way.
What part doesn't compute with you? Daybreak has nothing to do with DDO or LOTRO, other than Publishing it.
Standing Stone Games is in control of both games and have sole decision as to what happens with these games and the Licenses that are connected to these games.
DBG fired at least 50% of their workforce in the last year, including most of the high salary people.
The chief executive of DBG that took over after Smed was shown the door was also just canned and not replaced.
Except by a guy that is a top dog from the venture capital firm that bought them.
It is clear that CN/DBG is wringing the last cash from operation/sale of their existing titles, while doing very little to develop or even finish development of the titles they have going.
The final step would be to sell off the games/IPs that DBG owns and close down the rest.
That is how things have gone, and what venture capital firms do.
CN is not a game company.
People make way too many assumptions about daybreak. Cutting out SoE many failures is not a bad thing. SoE games did not look good years prior to its sale. They had 7 or 8 MMO's most of which did not seem to be performing that well. That is not to say their games were bad just not making the kind of money they should have been. EQN looked like a major blunder in the making. I would say that everything Daybreak has done is part of a larger strategy to make the remaining products profitable and open room for creation of new games not weighed down by SOE legacy. Columbus is owned by renova group and has many many companies. They know what they are doing, and milking a few poorly performing games for a few years is hardly worth the effort. What is worth the effort? Releasing a next gen games like perhaps EQ3 that doesn't suck and turns daybreak into a billion dollar company. Right now they are not popular with customers with a lack of progress and major development setbacks, but that does not mean there isn't a good plan in progress. I would be far more worried if they tried to get EQN out and hold onto every bad project. People want a new EQ but EQN was never going to live up to expectations, not after years of stalling and not against games 5+ years ahead in design and tech.
So SSG partnering with Daybreak may turn out to be a good thing for both companies. Daybreak can use this to build further positive relations and business as a publisher. SSG gets to continue on as before, perhaps with some new opportunity they did not have before.
It's shame this has all been derailed into arguments about Daybreak, mostly under the assumption that Daybreak owns LOTRO/DDO, which is completely wrong.
It's a really positive move. There's no way this would be happening if the game wasn't showing a profit and potential growth, there's no way we'd be getting an expansion, new models, a new race, and three regular content updates this year.
Glad to see LotRO might be getting some love, again.
It had been my go-to game even after the Fangorn update. Then's when the RNG went insane, and we were 8 months into what would turn into 2+ years of nonstop evacuation of villagers. Trappings of the source material, I suppose.
Never could get into "Big Battles"; never felt like I was doing anything that meant anything. Minas Tirith would turn out to be a great main questline smothered in Big Battles and busy work, being a delivery boy running from one end and level of the city to another...
Hate to pick apart a game I loved so much. I will come back to play when all of this gets done, though I may end up just bee-lining the main story. After playing Witcher 3 I can't help but think secondary quests can be pretty special, too. And if they aren't, I just can't enjoy doing them, anymore.
Do you really think Daybreak a company where MMOs are going to, to get shut down is going to improve LOTRO? Add to that the licenses is only renewed THROUGH 2017. So if Daybreak is not making money do you see it getting renewed after that?
Sorry but LOTRO should be shut down just like several other MMORPGs right now. DDO being another one.
I thought I read that the Tolkien Estate had licensed the game through 2019? Could be wrong though.
Glad to see LotRO might be getting some love, again.
It had been my go-to game even after the Fangorn update. Then's when the RNG went insane, and we were 8 months into what would turn into 2+ years of nonstop evacuation of villagers. Trappings of the source material, I suppose.
Never could get into "Big Battles"; never felt like I was doing anything that meant anything. Minas Tirith would turn out to be a great main questline smothered in Big Battles and busy work, being a delivery boy running from one end and level of the city to another...
Hate to pick apart a game I loved so much. I will come back to play when all of this gets done, though I may end up just bee-lining the main story. After playing Witcher 3 I can't help but think secondary quests can be pretty special, too. And if they aren't, I just can't enjoy doing them, anymore.
Do you really think Daybreak a company where MMOs are going to, to get shut down is going to improve LOTRO? Add to that the licenses is only renewed THROUGH 2017. So if Daybreak is not making money do you see it getting renewed after that?
Sorry but LOTRO should be shut down just like several other MMORPGs right now. DDO being another one.
I thought I read that the Tolkien Estate had licensed the game through 2019? Could be wrong though.
Well, they said this:
"Suffice it to say, the license will continue to be a non-issue for the
rest of the game's life, and we expect to continue developing LOTRO for many, many years to come, with your support."
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
the last part of your past is speculation and most likely not accurate, burntvet, go look at their page, they have job opportunities for unannounced titles, of course, they are not going to announce them before they're close to release, especially after their bad rep with eqn and whatnot.
That's nice.
Ask people that were unfortunate enough to buy H1Z1 about how much actual development DBG does, as compared to how many promises they make.
As to listing some positions on a website, so what? Many corporations, including the one I work for, have unfilled vacancies listed for literally years, often they do not even interview people for the positions excepting a couple times a year.
It is obvious you do not know how "vulture capital" companies work, as opposed to a holding/management company. I do. CN is in the former category, companies like that, buy a company cheap, make their money, and then get out. They are working on the "get out" part now.
This publishing deal is good for the value of DGB, because they have something in the publishing column when they they market their holdings for sale.
But firing most/all of the senior people and not hiring replacements for a company is a HUGE red flag that the clock is running out.
the last part of your past is speculation and most likely not accurate, burntvet, go look at their page, they have job opportunities for unannounced titles, of course, they are not going to announce them before they're close to release, especially after their bad rep with eqn and whatnot.
That's nice.
Ask people that were unfortunate enough to buy H1Z1 about how much actual development DBG does, as compared to how many promises they make.
As to listing some positions on a website, so what? Many corporations, including the one I work for, have unfilled vacancies listed for literally years, often they do not even interview people for the positions excepting a couple times a year.
It is obvious you do not know how "vulture capital" companies work, as opposed to a holding/management company. I do. CN is in the former category, companies like that, buy a company cheap, make their money, and then get out. They are working on the "get out" part now.
This publishing deal is good for the value of DGB, because they have something in the publishing column when they they market their holdings for sale.
But firing most/all of the senior people and not hiring replacements for a company is a HUGE red flag that the clock is running out.
Yes CN is a venture capital company; not a game company. Yes as you say as soon as CN took over they let c. 50% a reported 200 odd staff go. It was so quick that it was clearly arranged during the meetings with Sony / SoE. (It will have been a factor in the price paid).
And - given that Sony had just written off $60M game development costs these reductions were going to happen anyway.
Why can we be sure this would have happened? Look at life before CN. From memory in the previous 5 years there had been 4 re-organisations involving staff lay-offs which had reduced staff numbers from 1050 to c. 450. (Could have been 6 years and 5 reorgs). The last two were "significant" aimed at making the company profitable etc. etc. They closed several studios and multiple games. The only year they didn't have lay-offs they simply had a re-org that just involved closing more games.
So - based on what has actually happened - since CN took over things have been very, very steady. As expected.
I don't expect any game development at all. Sony tried that and wrote off $60M. There may well be "something" but its simpler to expect nothing. No "new" developments at all - treat anything that comes as a bonus.
I do expect the existing, revenue generating games to continue - until such time as they no longer make money. at which point they will be closed. Limited development if the team deems it "profitable" to do so - so expect quick and cheap; for if it doesn'y pay for itself jobs will be cut. For we can - I believe - be pretty sure that CN will not write off $60M like Sony did.
For this is also what venture capital companies do as well. "Save" companies. And CN may well have "saved" SoE. They were heading for oblivion prior to the take-over. CN have taken over the revenue generating games and are running them without "bleeding" money trying to develop a big new game.
So - even though DBG has "zero" control over SSG and what DBG are providing could be done by another company - I actually have no concerns (other than the bad press aspect maybe) about DBG doing the "publishing".
What I see happening is Daybreak shutting down these two MMOs but holding on to the IP so they can spin other games off. Daybreak is not going to spend money on 2 older MMOs that just are not making money, Trubine would have kept these games had they been making money. I am sorry but it is true. Don't believe me? Daybreak is owned by an investment company that buys new companies, takes certain product it wants and shuts down others. They use this as tools to get rights to certain IPs so they can use the IP in their own way to make money.
They would have to work with TE and WOC to do that... They can't just use the IPs because they publish these games.... I also fail to see why they'd fund costly updates if they're just going to shut them down. It would make much more sense to just run them as is until they did so.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Long story short,their not making money,too much overhead,so get rid of all the added costs or having your employees and handing it over to let someone else worry about it.
There is probably another financial side to this move we don't outright know or understand.
No matter i am more than certain that this is strictly to move money around,free up money and has NOTHING at all to do with making the game better and likely will go downhill as DB will simply be a publisher and likely signed a 1 year contract.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
People probably said Ultima was doomed and it's still going. Even if you take the low road on this debate and Daybreak exceeds its boundaries and spells LOTRO's demise, that doesn't mean it is gone. This isn't some no-name title, it has enough of a fanbase to keep it going, even if on different servers.
For now, let's enjoy the positive news and forward progress. We need more titles surviving the test of time....and over-demanding whiners.
Old MMOs need to die to make room for new ones. These two should have let go years ago. We need a modernized LotRO.
I agree to a certain extent, the fans of those games may well not move to the new game, like EQ and EQ2. We split ourselves to thin over the great MMOs that are out there. But is anyone going to make a new triple A Lotro? Even if they left for a new MMO (not Lotro) how many new triple AAA are out now?
Its a tricky one, but considering how F2P Lotro became an easy choice for me a few years ago.
Comments
They can't. The IP belongs to SSG, not DBG. All Daybreak Games is doing is publishing the game. SSG is the development team from Turbine that worked on these two games. All that happened is they spun out of Turbine and formed their own studio. Then they shopped around for a publisher and chose Daybreak Games.
Would you sign a contract that states that "at any time" their business partner can "pull the rug out from under you"? I imagine not. Then why would they?
Lord of the Rings Online most likely has to make a certain amount of money for Daybreak. Or, maybe there is some sort of thing where they make a certain percentage.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Big companies like Sony & WB don't want the heat from people who may try to sue if the game shuts down that they spent thousands on so they send it to DB until the right time comes along to shut it down.
No argument with 1. Turbine made the game - 10 years ago.
As for 2 this always comes down to what exactly is in the contract. Its not a new game. Checking your list: - website - no; they are using the existing site.
- advertising - no evidence yet, its the same, with the new expansion we will know for sure.
- platform (servers in this case) - no.
- billing - as I said above this is a possible; this was previously done by a third party.
- account management - according to SSG this has been transferred to SSG which would be no change..
- Support - apparently this is still Turbine! So it doesn't look like DBG will be "raising tickets".
So I don't see it being an issue - even if DBG closed. LotR fans have been worrying about the game for a long time; and on the list of things to be worried about this doesn't rank highly at all.
Second, a shameless plug again, the recap of Chris' interview on LotROreporter http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/comment/7107299/#Comment_7107299 about the split with Turbine, what is DBG's role, what are the plans with the two games (interesting, but it was a couple days before the Massively interview, and there was no mention of High Elves yet...
Third, @QuarterStack ; @LoudWisper , AC stayed with Turbine after the split, and they already announced the closure, so AC will be gone soon.
@ketzerei84 ; Yep, Ravenloft will be added to DDO with the next expansion, and playable dragonborn as well. For All-Access, they said in the interview above, it won't happen, neither between DDO and LotRO, nor between these two and the rest of the DBG games, since SSG and DBG accounts will remain separate.
What part doesn't compute with you? Daybreak has nothing to do with DDO or LOTRO, other than Publishing it.
Standing Stone Games is in control of both games and have sole decision as to what happens with these games and the Licenses that are connected to these games.
http://massivelyop.com/2016/10/12/daybreak-registers-mythwarden-domain-name/ they are working on a FPS game and whatever mythwarden is.
So SSG partnering with Daybreak may turn out to be a good thing for both companies. Daybreak can use this to build further positive relations and business as a publisher. SSG gets to continue on as before, perhaps with some new opportunity they did not have before.
It's a really positive move. There's no way this would be happening if the game wasn't showing a profit and potential growth, there's no way we'd be getting an expansion, new models, a new race, and three regular content updates this year.
I thought I read that the Tolkien Estate had licensed the game through 2019? Could be wrong though.
"Suffice it to say, the license will continue to be a non-issue for the rest of the game's life, and we expect to continue developing LOTRO for many, many years to come, with your support."
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Or, they publish their games themselves, which they won't do now cause there are another party who interested in publishing their games.
When you don't want the truth, you will make up your own truth.
And - given that Sony had just written off $60M game development costs these reductions were going to happen anyway.
Why can we be sure this would have happened? Look at life before CN. From memory in the previous 5 years there had been 4 re-organisations involving staff lay-offs which had reduced staff numbers from 1050 to c. 450. (Could have been 6 years and 5 reorgs). The last two were "significant" aimed at making the company profitable etc. etc. They closed several studios and multiple games. The only year they didn't have lay-offs they simply had a re-org that just involved closing more games.
So - based on what has actually happened - since CN took over things have been very, very steady. As expected.
I don't expect any game development at all. Sony tried that and wrote off $60M. There may well be "something" but its simpler to expect nothing. No "new" developments at all - treat anything that comes as a bonus.
I do expect the existing, revenue generating games to continue - until such time as they no longer make money. at which point they will be closed. Limited development if the team deems it "profitable" to do so - so expect quick and cheap; for if it doesn'y pay for itself jobs will be cut. For we can - I believe - be pretty sure that CN will not write off $60M like Sony did.
For this is also what venture capital companies do as well. "Save" companies. And CN may well have "saved" SoE. They were heading for oblivion prior to the take-over. CN have taken over the revenue generating games and are running them without "bleeding" money trying to develop a big new game.
So - even though DBG has "zero" control over SSG and what DBG are providing could be done by another company - I actually have no concerns (other than the bad press aspect maybe) about DBG doing the "publishing".
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
There is probably another financial side to this move we don't outright know or understand.
No matter i am more than certain that this is strictly to move money around,free up money and has NOTHING at all to do with making the game better and likely will go downhill as DB will simply be a publisher and likely signed a 1 year contract.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
For now, let's enjoy the positive news and forward progress. We need more titles surviving the test of time....and over-demanding whiners.
Neither game is worth playing and I so loved both genres...
Played: UO, LotR, WoW, SWG, DDO, AoC, EVE, Warhammer, TF2, EQ2, SWTOR, TSW, CSS, KF, L4D, AoW, WoT
Playing: The Secret World until Citadel of Sorcery goes into Alpha testing.
Tired of: Linear quest games, dailies, and dumbed down games
Anticipating:Citadel of Sorcery
Obviously, that would be expensive and time-consuming - but it should be much, much cheaper than developing a new MMO.
They're still among the most solid games on the market in terms of design paradigms and execution.
I agree to a certain extent, the fans of those games may well not move to the new game, like EQ and EQ2. We split ourselves to thin over the great MMOs that are out there. But is anyone going to make a new triple A Lotro? Even if they left for a new MMO (not Lotro) how many new triple AAA are out now?
Its a tricky one, but considering how F2P Lotro became an easy choice for me a few years ago.