Can an MMO ever truly recover from a bad launch?

TheScavenger

So, I started thinking about this when reading about how bad Wildstar is doing. Even though it isn't made for 1% raiders anymore, and is (supposedly) more improved. I don't play it, but another MMO in similar circumstances DID 100% improve and I had first hand experience with it.

That is Vanguard Saga of Heroes

Its launch was very bad (not the worst, but people coming from WoW expected perfection and because WoW launched with so much polish, that is what people wanted for a launch)...but it did also have a lot of other problems besides a bad two week launch. Bugged quests, crashing for many people, broken endgame and not easily soloable (which most themepark players (outside of MMORPG.com) always really like the option to solo even if they group most of the time, as seen by the WoW playerbase. 

So the game really had a bad first month which lost most of its players during that time.

However, like Wildstar (if what I read is true from that), Vanguard fully "recovered" after that first month and was barely buggy at all and performance was far better. Over time, the game came out just as they wanted it to. Vanguard itself was touted as a hardcore not solo friendly MMO, which right there will always be a niche MMO as far as themeparks go. However, if it saw 300-500k subscribers, that would have been a success for a niche MMO. 

However, the subscriber base was far below 100k, and by the end of its life the servers were nearly completely dead...the playerbase (including myself) heavily tried advertising for it on massively, MMORPG.com and many other places. But, people never stuck with it because the game was empty and lifeless after getting past the first initial levels. 

And that is really true for every MMO with a bad launch. I've only seen ONE MMO with a bad launch recover pretty well, that being Anarchy Online the worst launched MMO in MMO history. It was so bad, two weeks after release I picked up AO for 1 dollar at Frys Electronics rofl. 1 single dollar, and I got 30 days free...that was how bad it was. But, it DID recover, the only MMO I can think of with such a terrible launch actually recover from.

Granted, there wasn't any other MMOs like AO (there still isn't) and it was back when the MMO industry was a lot less crowded and very few choices.

But can an MMO with a bad launch in todays world, ever recover its playerbase? Wildstar and Vanguard Saga of heroes both seem to prove that its actually nearly impossible if not outright impossible in todays world of tons of choices to choose from.

What do you guys think? 

TheScavenger

Aori said:

FFXIV is really the only true comeback story imo.

Ah, yeah! I forgot about FFXIV. They pretty much completely remade it. A bigger come back than even Anarchy Online did. And now FFXIV is one of the top played MMOs.

Talonsin

Aori said:

FFXIV is really the only true comeback story imo.

A lot of that credit goes to the way they handled it.  They manned-up, admitted the issues, stopped charging a monthly sub and went back to the drawing board and fixed a lot of those issues.   

stayontarget

WoW had a horrid launch and they did ok.

junzo316

SWTOR had a fairly bad launch, but after going FTP, they seem to have landed on their feet.  Not bad.

Albatroes

ESO did as well?

VengeSunsoar

Vanguard got better but IMO it was never good. It just reached the stage of OK in everything. 

Rich84

junzo316 said:

SWTOR had a fairly bad launch, but after going FTP, they seem to have landed on their feet.  Not bad.

The only reason swtor survived is because of the SW IP without that it would have died like Wildstar.

Kyleran

Albatroes said:

ESO did as well?

One could argue the PC release was early access with the "real" launch on the console combined with the conversion to B2P propelling the game to its present day success.

Quizzical

Yes, games can recover from a bad launch.  Usually the reason they don't is that they're still not very good a year or two after launch for a lot of the same reasons that the launch was problematic.

The first time I played Vanguard was more than two years after launch.  At that point, it was still a mess, so it shouldn't be surprising that it was still unpopular.  Improving from catastrophically awful to merely rather bad is a long way to go, but had it been rather bad at launch, it still would have been a commercial failure.

Shoko_Lied

ZagavaVonn said:

TheScavenger said:

Its launch was very bad (not the worst, but people coming from WoW expected perfection and because WoW launched with so much polish, that is what people wanted for a launch)

Well WoW was a real mess the first 12-15 months if you were there.. True the graphics were polished, yes, but the game itself had all kinds of headaches, server crashing, account mess-ups, and a huge influx of people which am not sure they really thought could ever happen (or has happened ever since in MMO's am guessing). But WoW really separated itself from SWG and others at the time by just plowing through problems, instead of trying to NGE their way out of stuff they stuck to the original ideas and graphics and kept at it. And it was incredibly successful, especially the way they handled problems that popped-up...

SWG just kept redoing stuff instead of sticking to the 250-pt skill system and polishing it, alienating people every step of the way, whereas WoW stuck to it's core ideas and they really were rewarded for it with a fanatically loyal fanbase... Maybe that's kinda the lesson though, all launches have mistakes all over the place, but some companies just stick to pan and get through it like Blizzard

It's funny you use the phrase "NGE out of problems" in reference to what WoW didn't do, when it was actually WoW's viral success that poisoned the well and set into motion the failed development decisions for SWG and the go-ahead for NGE in the first place.

To this day, I cannot imagine how the folks at SOE could think they could take a game that's built from the ground up to be a pure sandbox, and make it more like a game that was built from the ground up to be a pure themepark, and somehow think they could profit off the latters success. Changing the very core of a design language to conform to a completely different breed of creation just doesn't work. Talk about fake personality issues, and a failure to recognize the distinct demand for what they already had.

SOE definitely should have polished what they already had with SWG, and developed a brand new mmorpg if they wanted to try and compete with the elephant.


This thread being about successful recoveries, however. I'd say FFXIV for sure. I played through the beta and early launch of XIV 1.0 and while I did enjoy the FFXI nostalgia, it wasn't supposed to be a FFXI v.2, and I could see how the archaic pandering wasn't what would drive the most success. So good on them for turning things around and doing what needed to be done. A ground up remake, not an ugly/botched face-lift like what SOE attempted. It seems that at least some developers have learned what not to do from the NGE mistake, and I'd say there's some value in that.

Theocritus

I think the games can recover but you better have a really good staff behind your game....Most of the ones mentioned are AAA games and people might be a little more forgiving with a company like Blizzard or NCSoft

Evilweebl

Any MMO that didnt die basically recovered.

centkin

You only have one chance to make a first impression.

So no, MMOs never really recover from a bad launch.  They can acquire new people, but even in the best case scenario they will get only a shadow of what they would have had had they launched in the better state.

Riannes

Yes. They can.

FFXIV. ESO. etc.

TheScavenger

Shoko_Lied said:

ZagavaVonn said:

TheScavenger said:

Its launch was very bad (not the worst, but people coming from WoW expected perfection and because WoW launched with so much polish, that is what people wanted for a launch)

Well WoW was a real mess the first 12-15 months if you were there.. True the graphics were polished, yes, but the game itself had all kinds of headaches, server crashing, account mess-ups, and a huge influx of people which am not sure they really thought could ever happen (or has happened ever since in MMO's am guessing). But WoW really separated itself from SWG and others at the time by just plowing through problems, instead of trying to NGE their way out of stuff they stuck to the original ideas and graphics and kept at it. And it was incredibly successful, especially the way they handled problems that popped-up...

SWG just kept redoing stuff instead of sticking to the 250-pt skill system and polishing it, alienating people every step of the way, whereas WoW stuck to it's core ideas and they really were rewarded for it with a fanatically loyal fanbase... Maybe that's kinda the lesson though, all launches have mistakes all over the place, but some companies just stick to pan and get through it like Blizzard

It's funny you use the phrase "NGE out of problems" in reference to what WoW didn't do, when it was actually WoW's viral success that poisoned the well and set into motion the failed development decisions for SWG and the go-ahead for NGE in the first place.

To this day, I cannot imagine how the folks at SOE could think they could take a game that's built from the ground up to be a pure sandbox, and make it more like a game that was built from the ground up to be a pure themepark, and somehow think they could profit off the latters success. Changing the very core of a design language to conform to a completely different breed of creation just doesn't work. Talk about fake personality issues, and a failure to recognize the distinct demand for what they already had.

SOE definitely should have polished what they already had with SWG, and developed a brand new mmorpg if they wanted to try and compete with the elephant.


This thread being about successful recoveries, however. I'd say FFXIV for sure. I played through the beta and early launch of XIV 1.0 and while I did enjoy the FFXI nostalgia, it wasn't supposed to be a FFXI v.2, and I could see how the archaic pandering wasn't what would drive the most success. So good on them for turning things around and doing what needed to be done. A ground up remake, not an ugly/botched face-lift like what SOE attempted. It seems that at least some developers have learned what not to do from the NGE mistake, and I'd say there's some value in that.

A lot of SWG's issues came from Lucasarts (pretty sure it was them, it was who was giving SOE the license to SWG). Now maybe the information I have is wrong, but it was supposedly Lucasarts who forced SOE to change SWG to be themepark like. Its one reason Lucasarts was so eager for SWTOR is because its what they wanted from SWG but failed at.

Maybe that is wrong, but that is what I read from various sites and posters that it was Lucasarts who had the heavy hand in ruining SWG, not so much SOE. 

Though with that said...I'm sure SOE was eager for that WoW money as well, but it was Lucasarts supposedly calling the shots.

esc-joconnor

Wildstar's poor launch broke the studio. Some of the main team members left, and I don't think they have an idea how to fix it. For all the potential it has and the work that's gone into it I think they should try the route FFXIV went.

Loke666

Aori said:

FFXIV is really the only true comeback story imo.

It relaunched though so it isn't really the same thing. 

But it is still possible, one game that did is Eve Online. It took a lot of work and long time but it became one of the larger games eventually. Anarchy Online never got as large but it did recover pretty well after the worst launch in MMO history.

So, you can admit the launch sucked, make the game free and relaunch it fixed up or you can spend a lot of hard work and slowly win ground.

Both are lousy alternatives to launching in good shape though, it is far cheaper and better to do it right from the start then to put millions into fixing things up.

Also, FFXIV would certainly have more subs if it launched in great shape from the beginning, they did minimize the damage but their name got still hurt somewhat.

So don't launch until the game is ready, while you save money at this moment you will be losing that money fast and most games never recover from a bad launch.

Loke666

Evilweebl said:

Any MMO that didnt die basically recovered.

AoC is still around but it never recovered. And it ain't the only one.

Aelious

With enough time, resources, and understanding from higher-ups, I'm sure it can. FFXIV is the only title that has done it on a massive scale and is really an anomaly when you consider the IP and the deep pockets of Square.


Vanguard is a good example of almost making it but fumbling the ball at the 1yd line. SoE took it from a buggy and shelf-ready title to something that was stable and playable, something to build upon. Unfortunately they didn't give it enough love post stabilization for it to flourish (music, sounds, animations, etc.). It wasn't until around the time of F2P and wanting to promote the conversion that they introduced new content and by then most had left.

Distopia

With AAA titles...I think it really depends on the overall importance of the title to it's owners. SWTOR, ESO, FFXIV, and a few others were obviously important to the parent companies. Whereas cases like AOC, it seems they just put it aside to focus on TSW, which faired far better. 

Amathe

Torval said:

If they can fix what was bad then it may recover. If not then it won't ever recover.

I would amend that to "If they can fix what was bad fast ...." 

Adamantine

Actually from WoW players in Vanguard I've got told that Vanguard at release was more stable than WoW in many respects. Including that Vanguard never was down for days without explanation, something that apparently was common in the early days of WoW.

And judging by Vanguard - no, that kind of recovery doesnt happen, ever.

cheyane

These days with early access and games releasing buggy I think the playing population have become immune to the frustration and generally are willing to go back and try the game again a few months later. I would say it is not as fatal as it once was .

mgilbrtsn

Absolutely, SWTOR, ESO, WoW..... It's easily possible if they put the resources and skill into the project

Aeander

esc-joconnor said:

Wildstar's poor launch broke the studio. Some of the main team members left, and I don't think they have an idea how to fix it. For all the potential it has and the work that's gone into it I think they should try the route FFXIV went.

That would be profoundly unlikely to work. Final Fantasy carries a large innate fanbase and name recognition that make such a reboot possible. WildStar.... does not.