The more I look into this Steven Sharif, the louder my alarm bells are going off. Does anyone have good background info that they can share? When I search online I see a lot of references to "Multi-Level-Marketing" which led me to familiarize myself with the term: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/multi-level-marketing.asp
Combine THAT with the latest Crowdfunding fad AND their "referral program" that pays you 15% of what people you recruit spend.... It's got my alarms at DEFCON 1...
Interested to see what others know and can share. I literally knew nothing about him nor had heard of him until this thread so I certainly do not claim to be an expert here.
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I've been in his guild for 12 years. He's a pretty down to earth guy who loves Mmorpg's. Made his money through network marketing, aka MLM. He sold nutritional products to people, made like 7mil a year doing that for past 14 years.
He flys his officers in the guild out to his home every year for comic con in San Diego. He is on Ashes of Creation Discord now, and chats with the community there. Join and ask him stuff yourself if you'd like discord.gg/ashesofcreation
The more I look into this Steven Sharif, the louder my alarm bells are going off. Does anyone have good background info that they can share? When I search online I see a lot of references to "Multi-Level-Marketing" which led me to familiarize myself with the term: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/multi-level-marketing.asp
Combine THAT with the latest Crowdfunding fad AND their "referral program" that pays you 15% of what people you recruit spend.... It's got my alarms at DEFCON 1...
Interested to see what others know and can share. I literally knew nothing about him nor had heard of him until this thread so I certainly do not claim to be an expert here.
Normally anyone or anything associated with MLM is part of a scam.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Guys come on, what's with the witch hunt? Stop looking for things to hate. If you don't like the idea of the game, move on. MLM is pretty standard stuff - Avon, Mary Kay, even P90x does it. All you have here is a guy who worked hard at a young age and made a lot of money from it, and now he's using his money for something he's passionate about. He's a gamer like us except he's actually made money. Give the poor guy a break.
The more I look into this Steven Sharif, the louder my alarm bells are going off. Does anyone have good background info that they can share? When I search online I see a lot of references to "Multi-Level-Marketing" which led me to familiarize myself with the term: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/multi-level-marketing.asp
Combine THAT with the latest Crowdfunding fad AND their "referral program" that pays you 15% of what people you recruit spend.... It's got my alarms at DEFCON 1...
Interested to see what others know and can share. I literally knew nothing about him nor had heard of him until this thread so I certainly do not claim to be an expert here.
According to this site, in 2010 him and another person earned $4,200,000thanks to multi-level marketing, in 2011 it was $3,240,000.
Guys come on, what's with the witch hunt? Stop looking for things to hate. If you don't like the idea of the game, move on. MLM is pretty standard stuff - Avon, Mary Kay, even P90x does it. All you have here is a guy who worked hard at a young age and made a lot of money from it, and now he's using his money for something he's passionate about. He's a gamer like us except he's actually made money. Give the poor guy a break.
Yeah, I consider those products, organizations scams, and there are far more onerous examples once you get into products such as insurance.
People do make a lot of money from them though, thats for sure.
Doesn't matter what anyone says however, at the end of the day all the matters is if a quality game gets delivered one day, that's what really will be judged.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Witch hunt? Not at all. Some people in this thread have come on here and claimed that this guy was the main reason we should back the game. Examples:
"They have millions in private funding and a AAA team. And most importantly they are engaging heavily with their community. That puts them instantly ahead ahead of any other indie mmorpg. "
When that claim was challenged YOU then personally made the false claim (easily proved) that: "Most of Crowfall's funding is various forms of Crowdfunding."
When presented with facts to disprove your statement you never responded.
Earlier conversations were about how much money this guy supposedly made...
So since we are claiming how revolutionary this company is I will restate my questions from above:
So exactly how much money has AoC raised from private investors thus far?
Have they raised any money via licensing?
How much is their target for Kickstarter?
If they have so much money why Crowdfund at all?
Plus: What is the total budget for the game?
As I said earlier, I'm not an expert on the guy and I'm looking for more information. When people come and start over hyping a game before it's Kickstarter, and they reference a guy who apparently made money with Multi-Level-Marketing and the game itself is promising a 15% of earning scheme of anyone you "recruit" it makes my alarm bells go off.
In this case it's DEFCON 1 until more info is given.
It's nice that some of you are in his guild for "12 years", but humor the rest of us while we actually look into this.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Slapshot1188 said: I literally knew nothing about him nor had heard of him until this thread so I certainly do not claim to be an expert here.
"MLM" or similar type commision payment is common in business networks.
What do you think licencing or franchising is? Same thing - you sell my stuff, I get a share of your sales.
So he has a record of being financially competent, how is that a bad thing....?
Here is what Investopedia has to say:
What is 'Multi-Level Marketing'
Multi-level marketing is a strategy that some direct sales companies use to encourage their existing distributors to recruit new distributors by paying the existing distributors a percentage of their recruits' sales; the recruits are known as a distributor's "downline." All distributors also make money through direct sales of products to customers. Amway is an example of a well-known direct-sales company that uses multi-level marketing.
BREAKING DOWN 'Multi-Level Marketing'
Multi-level marketing is a legitimate business strategy, though it is controversial. One problem is pyramid schemes, which use money from new recruits to pay the people at the top, often take advantage of people by pretending to be engaged in legitimate multi-level marketing. Pyramid schemes can sometimes be spotted by their greater focus on recruitment than on product sales.
Legitimacy of Multi-Level Marketing
At issue in determining the legitimacy of a multi-level marketing company is whether its products are sold primarily to consumers or to its members who must recruit new members to buy their products. If it is the former, the company is deemed a legitimate multi-level marketer. If it is the latter, it could be operating a pyramid scheme, which is illegal. The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) has been investigating multi-level companies for several decades and has found many that blur the lines between the two. According to industry data, there are 90 million members worldwide, but relatively few earn meaningful income from their efforts. To some observers, that reflects the characteristics of a pyramid scheme.
Crowdfunding in general always gets the spidey senses tingling. On top of that you have this MLM stuff and their Referral system where you can be paid 15% cash of anyone you recruit's lifetime sales...
Let's just say I personally remain in the skeptic camp and will wait for much more in the way of details before jumping on the hype train. But feel free to hop on if that's your thing!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Witch hunt? Not at all. Some people in this thread have come on here and claimed that this guy was the main reason we should back the game. Examples:
"They have millions in private funding and a AAA team. And most importantly they are engaging heavily with their community. That puts them instantly ahead ahead of any other indie mmorpg. "
When that claim was challenged YOU then personally made the false claim (easily proved) that: "Most of Crowfall's funding is various forms of Crowdfunding."
When presented with facts to disprove your statement you never responded.
Earlier conversations were about how much money this guy supposedly made...
So since we are claiming how revolutionary this company is I will restate my questions from above:
So exactly how much money has AoC raised from private investors thus far?
Have they raised any money via licensing?
How much is their target for Kickstarter?
If they have so much money why Crowdfund at all?
Plus: What is the total budget for the game?
As I said earlier, I'm not an expert on the guy and I'm looking for more information. When people come and start over hyping a game before it's Kickstarter, and they reference a guy who apparently made money with Multi-Level-Marketing and the game itself is promising a 15% of earning scheme of anyone you "recruit" it makes my alarm bells go off.
In this case it's DEFCON 1 until more info is given.
It's nice that some of you are in his guild for "12 years", but humor the rest of us while we actually look into this.
Tbh, I'm surprised that there aren't more "good businessmen" taking advantage of the MMO crowdfunding opportunity. Free money is incredibly attractive, and the target audience seems to be infinitely gullible.
It could be that Steven Sharif has just identified a new opportunity to apply his MLM expertise. Perhaps an unintended consequence will be a great MMO, but the signs are not good if the primary motivation is to make as much money as possible.
Witch hunt? Not at all. Some people in this thread have come on here and claimed that this guy was the main reason we should back the game. Examples:
"They have millions in private funding and a AAA team. And most importantly they are engaging heavily with their community. That puts them instantly ahead ahead of any other indie mmorpg. "
When that claim was challenged YOU then personally made the false claim (easily proved) that: "Most of Crowfall's funding is various forms of Crowdfunding."
When presented with facts to disprove your statement you never responded.
Earlier conversations were about how much money this guy supposedly made...
So since we are claiming how revolutionary this company is I will restate my questions from above:
So exactly how much money has AoC raised from private investors thus far?
Have they raised any money via licensing?
How much is their target for Kickstarter?
If they have so much money why Crowdfund at all?
Plus: What is the total budget for the game?
As I said earlier, I'm not an expert on the guy and I'm looking for more information. When people come and start over hyping a game before it's Kickstarter, and they reference a guy who apparently made money with Multi-Level-Marketing and the game itself is promising a 15% of earning scheme of anyone you "recruit" it makes my alarm bells go off.
In this case it's DEFCON 1 until more info is given.
It's nice that some of you are in his guild for "12 years", but humor the rest of us while we actually look into this.
Tbh, I'm surprised that there aren't more "good businessmen" taking advantage of the MMO crowdfunding opportunity. Free money is incredibly attractive, and the target audience seems to be infinitely gullible.
It could be that Steven Sharif has just identified a new opportunity to apply his MLM expertise. Perhaps an unintended consequence will be a great MMO, but the signs are not good if the primary motivation is to make as much money as possible.
TBH, I don't think that "good businessmen" are taking advantage of this "opportunity" you speak of mostly because it's scary as fuck! The risk is super high and the rewards are minimal. Honestly, they could probably bet a better return by putting their money into a high-interest savings account.
Witch hunt? Not at all. Some people in this thread have come on here and claimed that this guy was the main reason we should back the game. Examples:
"They have millions in private funding and a AAA team. And most importantly they are engaging heavily with their community. That puts them instantly ahead ahead of any other indie mmorpg. "
When that claim was challenged YOU then personally made the false claim (easily proved) that: "Most of Crowfall's funding is various forms of Crowdfunding."
When presented with facts to disprove your statement you never responded.
Earlier conversations were about how much money this guy supposedly made...
So since we are claiming how revolutionary this company is I will restate my questions from above:
So exactly how much money has AoC raised from private investors thus far?
Have they raised any money via licensing?
How much is their target for Kickstarter?
If they have so much money why Crowdfund at all?
Plus: What is the total budget for the game?
As I said earlier, I'm not an expert on the guy and I'm looking for more information. When people come and start over hyping a game before it's Kickstarter, and they reference a guy who apparently made money with Multi-Level-Marketing and the game itself is promising a 15% of earning scheme of anyone you "recruit" it makes my alarm bells go off.
In this case it's DEFCON 1 until more info is given.
It's nice that some of you are in his guild for "12 years", but humor the rest of us while we actually look into this.
Tbh, I'm surprised that there aren't more "good businessmen" taking advantage of the MMO crowdfunding opportunity. Free money is incredibly attractive, and the target audience seems to be infinitely gullible.
It could be that Steven Sharif has just identified a new opportunity to apply his MLM expertise. Perhaps an unintended consequence will be a great MMO, but the signs are not good if the primary motivation is to make as much money as possible.
TBH, I don't think that "good businessmen" are taking advantage of this "opportunity" you speak of mostly because it's scary as fuck! The risk is super high and the rewards are minimal. Honestly, they could probably bet a better return by putting their money into a high-interest savings account.
Crowdfunding implies very little risk and legal obligations. Creators can make promises, collect millions of dollars in pledge and never deliver on them.
The risk of seeing the crowdfunders initiate a class action or lawsuit is minimal.
Depending on how much money the creator(s) or investors put in the project, the risk may vary, but I think it's still the safest method to fund a project.
And MMORPGs can be extremely profitable. An astronomical number of MMO games are profitable. With early access and crowdfunding, many projects see the cost of development entirely recouped before the game even launch.
Many investors and businessmen visibly understood that.
The promises they have made for the title combined with the game footage make it feel like they need somewhere in the region of a $30M-50M budget for completing the game which is very far from the budget of other crowdfunded mmorpg like camelot unchained, crowfall, pantheon and shroud of the avatar.
I really hope they have multiple investors lined up, otherwise its going to be another game that goes for endless funding, starting with kickstarter, early access and a big cash shop on top.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
How dumb some haters are to think that crowdsourcing an MMO is a good business opportunity.
This guy is genuinely trying to make MMOs great again and hasn't even announced a date to any kickstarter cause as he has said "We want to hit certain development benchmarks".
Finally an MMO that doesn't want to create a cash grab pay2win garbage product.
And doesnt run to kickstarter with concept art and promises at their first chance.
And what do some one of you do?
try to crucify the guy who is putting up his own money.
Well I checked out Multi Level Marketing, turns out that it's a completely competent business with examples of 50+ year old companies like: Mary Kay, Avon, etc.
Steven Sharif is 30 years old, and was making 7 million a year in 2009? Damn, I'm sure that took a lot of hard work and dedication.
If he puts half that effort into a passion of his, I'd say the Hype Train is on course for Narnia boys.
How dumb some haters are to think that crowdsourcing an MMO is a good business opportunity.
This guy is genuinely trying to make MMOs great again and hasn't even announced a date to any kickstarter cause as he has said "We want to hit certain development benchmarks".
Finally an MMO that doesn't want to create a cash grab pay2win garbage product.
And doesnt run to kickstarter with concept art and promises at their first chance.
And what do some one of you do?
try to crucify the guy who is putting up his own money.
Well I checked out Multi Level Marketing, turns out that it's a completely competent business with examples of 50+ year old companies like: Mary Kay, Avon, etc.
Steven Sharif is 30 years old, and was making 7 million a year in 2009? Damn, I'm sure that took a lot of hard work and dedication.
If he puts half that effort into a passion of his, I'd say the Hype Train is on course for Narnia boys.
Choo chooooooo
Just because someone criticizes a game does not mean they hate it. Learn some english.
Witch hunt? Not at all. Some people in this thread have come on here and claimed that this guy was the main reason we should back the game. Examples:
"They have millions in private funding and a AAA team. And most importantly they are engaging heavily with their community. That puts them instantly ahead ahead of any other indie mmorpg. "
When that claim was challenged YOU then personally made the false claim (easily proved) that: "Most of Crowfall's funding is various forms of Crowdfunding."
When presented with facts to disprove your statement you never responded.
Earlier conversations were about how much money this guy supposedly made...
So since we are claiming how revolutionary this company is I will restate my questions from above:
So exactly how much money has AoC raised from private investors thus far?
Have they raised any money via licensing?
How much is their target for Kickstarter?
If they have so much money why Crowdfund at all?
Plus: What is the total budget for the game?
As I said earlier, I'm not an expert on the guy and I'm looking for more information. When people come and start over hyping a game before it's Kickstarter, and they reference a guy who apparently made money with Multi-Level-Marketing and the game itself is promising a 15% of earning scheme of anyone you "recruit" it makes my alarm bells go off.
In this case it's DEFCON 1 until more info is given.
It's nice that some of you are in his guild for "12 years", but humor the rest of us while we actually look into this.
Tbh, I'm surprised that there aren't more "good businessmen" taking advantage of the MMO crowdfunding opportunity. Free money is incredibly attractive, and the target audience seems to be infinitely gullible.
It could be that Steven Sharif has just identified a new opportunity to apply his MLM expertise. Perhaps an unintended consequence will be a great MMO, but the signs are not good if the primary motivation is to make as much money as possible.
TBH, I don't think that "good businessmen" are taking advantage of this "opportunity" you speak of mostly because it's scary as fuck! The risk is super high and the rewards are minimal. Honestly, they could probably bet a better return by putting their money into a high-interest savings account.
Crowdfunding implies very little risk and legal obligations. Creators can make promises, collect millions of dollars in pledge and never deliver on them.
The risk of seeing the crowdfunders initiate a class action or lawsuit is minimal.
Depending on how much money the creator(s) or investors put in the project, the risk may vary, but I think it's still the safest method to fund a project.
And MMORPGs can be extremely profitable. An astronomical number of MMO games are profitable. With early access and crowdfunding, many projects see the cost of development entirely recouped before the game even launch.
Many investors and businessmen visibly understood that.
Yes, but when I talk about risk I talk about actually creating a viable product. When I'm talking about rewards, I mean that in order to not be sued by the state, you need to show that you've spent the money on developing the game. So other than, maybe, pulling some sort of salary out of it, what would a businessman get?
Also, I'm not sure where these "millions" of dollars are that you're talking about. You can probably count on two hands the number of game projects which have exceeded $1 million in crowdfunding. Actually, that's a lie, based on this list there were a total of 37 (out of 429 items in the list) projects which raised over $1 million. However, what you can count on two hands are the number of projects with over $1 million in funding which weren't created by industry vets who have an established following. I'm sorry, but $1 million to a "good businessman", understanding that it will probably take another $15-40 million to make, is a drop in the bucket. In the end, the effort isn't worth it. Again, you could stick your money into a savings account and probably make more.
As far as money-making ventures go, the fact is that the profitability of MMORPGs has been in question for some time now. The genre revenues have dropped in North America over the past 2 years, and the vast majority of revenues for the genre are now coming from a handful of games. Hence, there really aren't any AAA MMORPGs on the horizon for release in North America. There are companies like NC Soft who have like 30 projects on the go, but these are most aimed at the Asia-Pacific market where there is still meat on the bone. If this was such "easy money" you can be sure that we'd have a great number of cookie-cutter MMOs being churned out on a monthly basis.
I'm not sure it's the slam dunk that you're thinking it is.
lol @ their "referral program" - I see what they're trying to do now, clever. They're going to apply the pyramid scheme tactic to recruit players, so rather than P2W, it'll be recruit 2 win. You can even get cash back!
Guys . . . this is an actual scam. I'm just saying it now. I'd be more than happy to eat my words if it turns out otherwise, but I'm 100% certain it's a scam.
On top of that, the feature list is even more ambitious than Star Citizen.
Changing cities with dynamic content Real-time political and NPC hierarchies Housing . . . anywhere! Dynamically changing questlines based on player choices Alter world events "Hundreds of players" sieges Adaptive AI for mobs!
You. Are. Being. Scammed. Stop being so gullible ffs.
lol @ their "referral program" - I see what they're trying to do now, clever. They're going to apply the pyramid scheme tactic to recruit players, so rather than P2W, it'll be recruit 2 win. You can even get cash back!
Guys . . . this is an actual scam. I'm just saying it now. I'd be more than happy to eat my words if it turns out otherwise, but I'm 100% certain it's a scam.
On top of that, the feature list is even more ambitious than Star Citizen.
Changing cities with dynamic content Real-time political and NPC hierarchies Housing . . . anywhere! Dynamically changing questlines based on player choices Alter world events "Hundreds of players" sieges Adaptive AI for mobs!
You. Are. Being. Scammed. Stop being so gullible ffs.
I'm not as certain as you are that it's a scam. What I will agree with you on is the features. Personally, I look at this and say, "Wow, cool ideas." However, my expectation is that they'd work towards release an MVP and then integrate more advanced features as they go. Unfortunately that's probably just me being idealistic and I should know better because that's simply not the way it ever goes. It's always about trying to squeeze everything in there, usually to the detriment of the project.
Yes, but when I talk about risk I talk about actually creating a viable product. When I'm talking about rewards, I mean that in order to not be sued by the state, you need to show that you've spent the money on developing the game.
I'm not aware of any studio using crowdfunding that got sued by the state.
There's a difference between studios that fail to deliver on their promises (what I was discussing) and studios that fraudulently use money for other purposes than game development.
Also, I'm not sure where these "millions" of dollars are that you're talking about. You can probably count on two hands the number of game projects which have exceeded $1 million in crowdfunding. Actually, that's a lie, based on this list there were a total of 37 (out of 429 items in the list) projects which raised over $1 million.
This partial list features +100 projects that received more than $1M in crowdfunding.
37 crowdfunded video game projects that reached +$1M in less than 5 years is huge imo.
I'm sorry, but $1 million to a "good businessman", understanding that it will probably take another $15-40 million to make, is a drop in the bucket. In the end, the effort isn't worth it. Again, you could stick your money into a savings account and probably make more.
Many video game creators, publishers and investors seem to believe that it's worth it.
lol @ their "referral program" - I see what they're trying to do now, clever. They're going to apply the pyramid scheme tactic to recruit players, so rather than P2W, it'll be recruit 2 win. You can even get cash back!
Guys . . . this is an actual scam. I'm just saying it now. I'd be more than happy to eat my words if it turns out otherwise, but I'm 100% certain it's a scam.
On top of that, the feature list is even more ambitious than Star Citizen.
Changing cities with dynamic content Real-time political and NPC hierarchies Housing . . . anywhere! Dynamically changing questlines based on player choices Alter world events "Hundreds of players" sieges Adaptive AI for mobs!
You. Are. Being. Scammed. Stop being so gullible ffs.
I'm not quite at that level yet but I am hugely skeptical. When basic questions are asked of the defenders they have now resorted to insults like calling skeptics "dumb".
Also raising an eyebrow for me is that I just read that the CFO is actually this Sharif guys husband. I guess there is nothing illegal about that but I personally like a clean separation.
Again, this could be the greatest thing since sliced bread... but crowdfunding is all based on trust and so far, for me... everything I read and research is leading me in the other direction.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
lol @ their "referral program" - I see what they're trying to do now, clever. They're going to apply the pyramid scheme tactic to recruit players, so rather than P2W, it'll be recruit 2 win. You can even get cash back!
Guys . . . this is an actual scam. I'm just saying it now. I'd be more than happy to eat my words if it turns out otherwise, but I'm 100% certain it's a scam.
On top of that, the feature list is even more ambitious than Star Citizen.
Changing cities with dynamic content Real-time political and NPC hierarchies Housing . . . anywhere! Dynamically changing questlines based on player choices Alter world events "Hundreds of players" sieges Adaptive AI for mobs!
You. Are. Being. Scammed. Stop being so gullible ffs.
I'm not quite at that level yet but I am hugely skeptical. When basic questions are asked of the defenders they have now resorted to insults like calling skeptics "dumb".
Also raising an eyebrow for me is that I just read that the CFO is actually this Sharif guys husband. I guess there is nothing illegal about that but I personally like a clean separation.
Again, this could be the greatest thing since sliced bread... but crowdfunding is all based on trust and so far, for me... everything I read and research is leading me in the other direction.
Then you should probably never play a Korean MMO. Nepotism is a way of life there in every industry. I don't approve but they do make good MMO's, so I don't see a reason why they can't do the same here.
I like this game and most of it's ideas,but if people are arguing over crowd funding and kickstarters,don't bother,it is a black mark on society and is imo 99% exploitation of well i see someone used the term GULLIBLE people,sure i can accept that term,naive is another,foolish another.
The ONLY time and i have said this before that $$$ come from innocent bystanders is if there is some investment or profit to be had for them.No not these scammy low standard shares,i mean legit full hands on profit.Taking money for FREE is just wrong in every sense of the word.
This whole idea of crowd funding and early access has opened some ugly doors,now every single developer that is scammy themselves will see it and exploit it.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Yes, but when I talk about risk I talk about actually creating a viable product. When I'm talking about rewards, I mean that in order to not be sued by the state, you need to show that you've spent the money on developing the game.
I'm not aware of any studio using crowdfunding that got sued by the state.
There's a difference between studios that fail to deliver on their promises (what I was discussing) and studios that fraudulently use money for other purposes than game development.
Also, I'm not sure where these "millions" of dollars are that you're talking about. You can probably count on two hands the number of game projects which have exceeded $1 million in crowdfunding. Actually, that's a lie, based on this list there were a total of 37 (out of 429 items in the list) projects which raised over $1 million.
This partial list features +100 projects that received more than $1M in crowdfunding.
37 crowdfunded video game projects that reached +$1M in less than 5 years is huge imo.
I'm sorry, but $1 million to a "good businessman", understanding that it will probably take another $15-40 million to make, is a drop in the bucket. In the end, the effort isn't worth it. Again, you could stick your money into a savings account and probably make more.
Many video game creators, publishers and investors seem to believe that it's worth it.
There is a project, but it was for a physical game, where the creator was sued by the state. It's not common, yet, but there is precedent.
As far as studios failing to deliver, there are only about 20% of projects remaining undelivered after 3 years of development. That's still a big number, in my opinion, but it still shows a decent success rate. However, the number of those which are MMORPGs is approaching zero.
You are right, there are many video game creators, publishers, etc who believe it's worthwhile, but the whole reason crowdfunding even exists is a means of generating funding and interest because, otherwise, these games wouldn't be attempted by publishers, video game creators, etc.
Honestly, if you have data showing that MMORPGs are making a killing in North America, please let me see it, because I literally have nothing that would show that. In fact, any data I have would show the opposite. I'm a huge advocate of crowdfunding and MMOs, so I'd love to have this data in my arsenal.
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Combine THAT with the latest Crowdfunding fad AND their "referral program" that pays you 15% of what people you recruit spend....
It's got my alarms at DEFCON 1...
Interested to see what others know and can share. I literally knew nothing about him nor had heard of him until this thread so I certainly do not claim to be an expert here.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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He flys his officers in the guild out to his home every year for comic con in San Diego. He is on Ashes of Creation Discord now, and chats with the community there. Join and ask him stuff yourself if you'd like discord.gg/ashesofcreation
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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People do make a lot of money from them though, thats for sure.
Doesn't matter what anyone says however, at the end of the day all the matters is if a quality game gets delivered one day, that's what really will be judged.
So maybe come back in 2 or 3 years?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"They have millions in private funding and a AAA team. And most importantly they are engaging heavily with their community. That puts them instantly ahead ahead of any other indie mmorpg. "
When that claim was challenged YOU then personally made the false claim (easily proved) that: "Most of Crowfall's funding is various forms of Crowdfunding."
When presented with facts to disprove your statement you never responded.
Earlier conversations were about how much money this guy supposedly made...
So since we are claiming how revolutionary this company is I will restate my questions from above:
As I said earlier, I'm not an expert on the guy and I'm looking for more information. When people come and start over hyping a game before it's Kickstarter, and they reference a guy who apparently made money with Multi-Level-Marketing and the game itself is promising a 15% of earning scheme of anyone you "recruit" it makes my alarm bells go off.
In this case it's DEFCON 1 until more info is given.
It's nice that some of you are in his guild for "12 years", but humor the rest of us while we actually look into this.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
What do you think licencing or franchising is? Same thing - you sell my stuff, I get a share of your sales.
So he has a record of being financially competent, how is that a bad thing....?
What is 'Multi-Level Marketing'
Multi-level marketing is a strategy that some direct sales companies use to encourage their existing distributors to recruit new distributors by paying the existing distributors a percentage of their recruits' sales; the recruits are known as a distributor's "downline." All distributors also make money through direct sales of products to customers. Amway is an example of a well-known direct-sales company that uses multi-level marketing.
BREAKING DOWN 'Multi-Level Marketing'
Multi-level marketing is a legitimate business strategy, though it is controversial. One problem is pyramid schemes, which use money from new recruits to pay the people at the top, often take advantage of people by pretending to be engaged in legitimate multi-level marketing. Pyramid schemes can sometimes be spotted by their greater focus on recruitment than on product sales.
Legitimacy of Multi-Level Marketing
At issue in determining the legitimacy of a multi-level marketing company is whether its products are sold primarily to consumers or to its members who must recruit new members to buy their products. If it is the former, the company is deemed a legitimate multi-level marketer. If it is the latter, it could be operating a pyramid scheme, which is illegal. The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) has been investigating multi-level companies for several decades and has found many that blur the lines between the two. According to industry data, there are 90 million members worldwide, but relatively few earn meaningful income from their efforts. To some observers, that reflects the characteristics of a pyramid scheme.
------------------------------------------------------------Crowdfunding in general always gets the spidey senses tingling.
On top of that you have this MLM stuff and their Referral system where you can be paid 15% cash of anyone you recruit's lifetime sales...
Let's just say I personally remain in the skeptic camp and will wait for much more in the way of details before jumping on the hype train. But feel free to hop on if that's your thing!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It could be that Steven Sharif has just identified a new opportunity to apply his MLM expertise. Perhaps an unintended consequence will be a great MMO, but the signs are not good if the primary motivation is to make as much money as possible.
TBH, I don't think that "good businessmen" are taking advantage of this "opportunity" you speak of mostly because it's scary as fuck! The risk is super high and the rewards are minimal. Honestly, they could probably bet a better return by putting their money into a high-interest savings account.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
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The risk of seeing the crowdfunders initiate a class action or lawsuit is minimal.
Depending on how much money the creator(s) or investors put in the project, the risk may vary, but I think it's still the safest method to fund a project.
And MMORPGs can be extremely profitable. An astronomical number of MMO games are profitable. With early access and crowdfunding, many projects see the cost of development entirely recouped before the game even launch.
Many investors and businessmen visibly understood that.
I really hope they have multiple investors lined up, otherwise its going to be another game that goes for endless funding, starting with kickstarter, early access and a big cash shop on top.
This guy is genuinely trying to make MMOs great again and hasn't even announced a date to any kickstarter cause as he has said "We want to hit certain development benchmarks".
Finally an MMO that doesn't want to create a cash grab pay2win garbage product.
And doesnt run to kickstarter with concept art and promises at their first chance.
And what do some one of you do?
try to crucify the guy who is putting up his own money.
Well I checked out Multi Level Marketing, turns out that it's a completely competent business with examples of 50+ year old companies like: Mary Kay, Avon, etc.
Steven Sharif is 30 years old, and was making 7 million a year in 2009? Damn, I'm sure that took a lot of hard work and dedication.
If he puts half that effort into a passion of his, I'd say the Hype Train is on course for Narnia boys.
Choo chooooooo
Yes, but when I talk about risk I talk about actually creating a viable product. When I'm talking about rewards, I mean that in order to not be sued by the state, you need to show that you've spent the money on developing the game. So other than, maybe, pulling some sort of salary out of it, what would a businessman get?
Also, I'm not sure where these "millions" of dollars are that you're talking about. You can probably count on two hands the number of game projects which have exceeded $1 million in crowdfunding. Actually, that's a lie, based on this list there were a total of 37 (out of 429 items in the list) projects which raised over $1 million. However, what you can count on two hands are the number of projects with over $1 million in funding which weren't created by industry vets who have an established following. I'm sorry, but $1 million to a "good businessman", understanding that it will probably take another $15-40 million to make, is a drop in the bucket. In the end, the effort isn't worth it. Again, you could stick your money into a savings account and probably make more.
As far as money-making ventures go, the fact is that the profitability of MMORPGs has been in question for some time now. The genre revenues have dropped in North America over the past 2 years, and the vast majority of revenues for the genre are now coming from a handful of games. Hence, there really aren't any AAA MMORPGs on the horizon for release in North America. There are companies like NC Soft who have like 30 projects on the go, but these are most aimed at the Asia-Pacific market where there is still meat on the bone. If this was such "easy money" you can be sure that we'd have a great number of cookie-cutter MMOs being churned out on a monthly basis.
I'm not sure it's the slam dunk that you're thinking it is.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Guys . . . this is an actual scam. I'm just saying it now. I'd be more than happy to eat my words if it turns out otherwise, but I'm 100% certain it's a scam.
On top of that, the feature list is even more ambitious than Star Citizen.
Changing cities with dynamic content
Real-time political and NPC hierarchies
Housing . . . anywhere!
Dynamically changing questlines based on player choices
Alter world events
"Hundreds of players" sieges
Adaptive AI for mobs!
You. Are. Being. Scammed. Stop being so gullible ffs.
I'm not as certain as you are that it's a scam. What I will agree with you on is the features. Personally, I look at this and say, "Wow, cool ideas." However, my expectation is that they'd work towards release an MVP and then integrate more advanced features as they go. Unfortunately that's probably just me being idealistic and I should know better because that's simply not the way it ever goes. It's always about trying to squeeze everything in there, usually to the detriment of the project.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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There's a difference between studios that fail to deliver on their promises (what I was discussing) and studios that fraudulently use money for other purposes than game development.
This partial list features +100 projects that received more than $1M in crowdfunding.
37 crowdfunded video game projects that reached +$1M in less than 5 years is huge imo.
Also raising an eyebrow for me is that I just read that the CFO is actually this Sharif guys husband. I guess there is nothing illegal about that but I personally like a clean separation.
Again, this could be the greatest thing since sliced bread... but crowdfunding is all based on trust and so far, for me... everything I read and research is leading me in the other direction.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The ONLY time and i have said this before that $$$ come from innocent bystanders is if there is some investment or profit to be had for them.No not these scammy low standard shares,i mean legit full hands on profit.Taking money for FREE is just wrong in every sense of the word.
This whole idea of crowd funding and early access has opened some ugly doors,now every single developer that is scammy themselves will see it and exploit it.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
There is a project, but it was for a physical game, where the creator was sued by the state. It's not common, yet, but there is precedent.
As far as studios failing to deliver, there are only about 20% of projects remaining undelivered after 3 years of development. That's still a big number, in my opinion, but it still shows a decent success rate. However, the number of those which are MMORPGs is approaching zero.
You are right, there are many video game creators, publishers, etc who believe it's worthwhile, but the whole reason crowdfunding even exists is a means of generating funding and interest because, otherwise, these games wouldn't be attempted by publishers, video game creators, etc.
Honestly, if you have data showing that MMORPGs are making a killing in North America, please let me see it, because I literally have nothing that would show that. In fact, any data I have would show the opposite. I'm a huge advocate of crowdfunding and MMOs, so I'd love to have this data in my arsenal.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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