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MMORPG Design Challenge: Skill System
SirAgravaine
Member RarePosts: 520
In the spirit of a true "armchair" game designers and as promised, we continue series, focusing in on specific topics and systems. This time around we discuss the Skill System.
It is worth noting that these discussions aren't meant to ostracize the less creative of you, but rather to stir the minds of those that find it enjoyable to share their ideas on the various subjects of game design. In that vein, try to stay constructive and creative and hopefully we will have a bit more participation than the last on Death Systems. If you feel like discussing your favorite skill system, rather than coming up with your own, that is also encouraged, as I'm sure it will add to the conversation, but I would encourage you to answer the core questions (below) regarding that system.
Guidelines:
To make a submission, post a comment following the template below.
To up-vote a submission, click the "Awesome" or "Agree" Reactions at the bottom of a comment.
Stay on topic!
Topic: Skill System
Skill systems provide a means for making actions in a game world and checking those actions against the rules of the world. They represent the prowess and mastery of the character, encompassing everything from swords to sorcery to how effective at dragon-slaying the character is. Not every skill system is created equally, whilst some are simple in design...others may be increasingly complex with their implementation.
As with the last discussion, take the time to write up a brief (or lengthy) version of a skill system that you may have in mind. This may be one you have already cooked up for a custom RPG, an adaptation of your favorite system, or an entirely new creation spurred on by this discussion.
The subject of skill systems is so broad and encompasses so many things that I have included five questions, which I believe to be core to skill systems. Answer these core questions, but feel free to expand upon them and explore more angles for which to fill in the detail for your system. Also, this time I left my own submission out, but I will also include it in the comments below!
1. Structure: Does your system involve classes or pre-determined archetypes?
2. Stats: Does your system utilize attributes or stat-points?
3. Progression: Does your system utilize levels? If not, how do players progress?
4. Setting: What is the setting of your skill system (science fiction, fantasy, occult etc.)?
5. Balance: Is your system limited (characters can only obtain a certain subset of skills) or limitless (can obtain all skills)?
Have Fun & Discuss
It is worth noting that these discussions aren't meant to ostracize the less creative of you, but rather to stir the minds of those that find it enjoyable to share their ideas on the various subjects of game design. In that vein, try to stay constructive and creative and hopefully we will have a bit more participation than the last on Death Systems. If you feel like discussing your favorite skill system, rather than coming up with your own, that is also encouraged, as I'm sure it will add to the conversation, but I would encourage you to answer the core questions (below) regarding that system.
Guidelines:
To make a submission, post a comment following the template below.
To up-vote a submission, click the "Awesome" or "Agree" Reactions at the bottom of a comment.
Stay on topic!
Topic: Skill System
Skill systems provide a means for making actions in a game world and checking those actions against the rules of the world. They represent the prowess and mastery of the character, encompassing everything from swords to sorcery to how effective at dragon-slaying the character is. Not every skill system is created equally, whilst some are simple in design...others may be increasingly complex with their implementation.
As with the last discussion, take the time to write up a brief (or lengthy) version of a skill system that you may have in mind. This may be one you have already cooked up for a custom RPG, an adaptation of your favorite system, or an entirely new creation spurred on by this discussion.
The subject of skill systems is so broad and encompasses so many things that I have included five questions, which I believe to be core to skill systems. Answer these core questions, but feel free to expand upon them and explore more angles for which to fill in the detail for your system. Also, this time I left my own submission out, but I will also include it in the comments below!
1. Structure: Does your system involve classes or pre-determined archetypes?
2. Stats: Does your system utilize attributes or stat-points?
3. Progression: Does your system utilize levels? If not, how do players progress?
4. Setting: What is the setting of your skill system (science fiction, fantasy, occult etc.)?
5. Balance: Is your system limited (characters can only obtain a certain subset of skills) or limitless (can obtain all skills)?
Have Fun & Discuss
Comments
1. Structure: My system is classless but has predetermined archetypes to use as starting points, as well as an optional custom archetype (think TES IV: Oblivion or Asheron's Call). These classless archetypal structures are called Dispositions, and are simple stat arrays that determine the rate at which players advance their skills.
2. Stats: Yes, player characters (PC) have starting attributes, but cannot increase these from their initial array. These are not traditional attributes (Strength, Health, Mana etc.) but are characteristics which define the disposition of the character. They are the qualities in which a PC is 'born' with, that help shape that PC's personality and therefore their capacity for learning and obtaining skills.
Characteristics (Attributes):
Perception – The measure of insight gained by using the five senses.
Dexterity – The measure of innate ability in using the hands or body.
Tenacity – The measure of innate mental and physical endurance.
Charisma – The measure of ability to influence or inspire others.
Intellect – The measure of capacity for thinking and acquiring knowledge.
Creativity – The measure of originality and capacity to create.
3. Progression: My system does not utilize traditional levels or experience-based progression. In my mind levels produce disparities between the playerbase and content, eventually isolating large chunks of content from everyday gameplay. On the same note, my system has progression and varying degrees of difficulty that will rely upon the level of progression of a PC as well as a player's aptitude for their PC to determine success or failure.
Progression would consist of achievements or objectives that allows players to gain Mastery points in a specific skill (think SWG experience types). As a PC gains mastery in a skill they will unlock various abilities, traits, and passives that provide progression within the gameworld. Overall this system is meant to be flat, to limit the disparity between new and veteran players, but at the same time emphasizing the disparity in certain in encounters and pieces of content that require more experienced/advanced players.
4. Setting: As stated above, my skill system exists in a Neo-Victorian (steampunk) science-fiction hybrid setting, where the player base has been transported from from Earth to a new planet with alien technology. This setting will shape the skill system through technology which will then in-turn shape the style and pace of various modes of gameplay, to include crafting and combat.
5. Balance: My system is unlimited (players can unlock all skills and abilities) but with the caveat that there is skill decay. Remember disposition? The players starting stat array will affect the rate at which they acquire skill mastery points and the rate at which skills decay. There will be certain "milestone" points that further limits the rate of skill decay, but all players will be faced with skill decay. Skill decay adds balance, so that a single PC cannot hope to obtain 100% of all skills at 100% effectiveness in the game 100% of the time without great effort. These concepts are based upon the principle that anybody can acquire a skill, but everyone must practice it to be a master of it.
6. Additional info: To further expand upon this system, it is worth mentioning that skills are baked into the character menu, and can be looked at whenever convenient. As stated above, these skills contain abilities, traits and passives and generally are flat in their progression (meaning that a player that has fully mastered a skill will not be grossly more powerful/effective than a novice, that is not to say that they will be marginally more effective either). The flatness of the system is to discourage the mindset that a veteran player can one hit novice players, as a novice player should still have a fighting chance (think Destiny's PVP system). That is not to say that a veteran player will not have more tools at their disposal, however.
Furthermore, I want to explain that the the base character skill system does not grant all abilities found in the game world, but only a very small subset of abilities. Abilities are specific actions that a PC can make. If for instance a PC is skilled at using a bladed weapon from handling them throughout their adventures, that is not to say that the PC is familiar with a passata sotto. In that regard, abilities are specific to weapons and tools (similar to GW2, Albion Online, or Path of Exile) and are therefore not baked into the skill system (character sheet) in that regard, but baked into weapons and unlocked and/or enhanced by the skill system. This implementation is meant to do several things: encourage build diversity for combatants and crafters, drive the economy through crafting unique skill combination weapons and tools, add additional customization options, allow more flexibility with varying combinations of weapons and technology (gunblade, sword & gun, heavy weapons etc.) without adding complexity to the base skill system, and finally to add a level of diversity and depth to the loot system.
Hopefully you enjoyed reading through my ideas, I look forward to discussing them and reading yours!
First of all will almost all players max out the same skills. They will find some weird OP build and run it.
The skill decay means people will spam skills constantly leading to silly things like people bunny jumping all over the game to keep their jumping skill up an so on.
Most players will use the exact same method to fight since they will use the same OP build.
People will feel forced to log in to keep their skills up even if they don't feel like playing and that is bad, makes it easier for people to tire of the game.
And the balancing will be rather terrible.
Allowing players to learn all skills is fine but they shouldn't be able to use them all at the same time. If you don't use classes to restrict the skills you need either other permanent restrictions (race, attributes) or temporary restrictions (like gear or that certain skills that don't allow you to equip it if you have certain other skills equipped, armor & weapon restrictions or something like GW 1 & 2s elite skills, a type of better skill you only can have 1 equipped at once).
You need to encourage people to try out different things in a classless system, otherwise everyone will be a plate armor wearing magic users that also wields a sword.
That is far less restricted then classes but more fun then total anarchy. For instance you want skills like fireball have the restriction that the player can't use any armor for it or all players will wear plate.
As for skill decay there is actually a way you could pull that off: If player loses skillpoint when they die instead of with time. Then you punish people for failing instead of for not logging in or not using a particular skill any given day. That is actually a rather good death penalty and will put some fear of the gods into the players instead of feeling that the game just punishes them for no good reason.
Skill decay might sound realistic at first thought but someone who been a master at something will loose a little of it if they havn't used it for a while but even a master who hasn't done something in 10 years will still be really good at that skill. But that you loses something by dying and coming back to life at least would make some sense, maybe a bit of your soul wont come back and if a master would die a 100 times and becomes an apprentice is far more logical then he becoming an apprentice for just not using the skill for a while. It also would be more fun.
Now, some of your ideas are not bad at all but a game with those 2 factors used in the way you describe would never get more then 25K players, at least not for more then a few weeks.
You need to rethink those things, my solutions would work but you could probably figure out other options as well. Of course if what you want to make is a small niche game like Darkfall it would work but if you want it just a bit bigger it wont work.
Many pen and paper RPGs have neither classes nor levels but none I can think of would allow players to use any combinations of skill and gear. Either they seriously limit you in how many skillpoints you get, let you pick a certain number of skills or restrict you in another way, for the reason that everyone would make the same character otherwise.
I think you are on the right track but not there just yet.
- I would do a hybrid system. In the beginning of the game there are no classes, but after a certain point you can subclass yourself into 1 prestige like classes in which the skills are unique and locked.
2. Stats: Does your system utilize attributes or stat-points?
- System starts off with basic attributes all at the same level, but as you go through the period of no classes, you can alter them as you go slightly.
3. Progression: Does your system utilize levels? If not, how do players progress?
Once you go into your prestige class, the progression will be based on an rolodex style. Where if you kill mobs, after a certain number, the mob will drop a soul card. This soul card will have 1 stat or attribute on it. Such as +1 to strength, + to hp, + to run speed, + to dmg resistance, etc.
So to progress in a PvE way, you just have to kill more mobs. There will also be soul cards on doing certain missions or tasks or finding hidden things or completing certain content.
In addition, the progression of the skills with the character will be a hybrid system of leveling like EVE levels in real time and just using the skill as long as the rolodex system. Also, the rolodex system requires you to either get last hit on mob and the majority of damage on the mob. Progression will be marked by skill points and cards found total.
4. Setting: What is the setting of your skill system (science fiction, fantasy, occult etc.)?
- Fantasy
5. Balance: Is your system limited (characters can only obtain a certain subset of skills) or limitless (can obtain all skills)?
- Interestingly, I do not believe in balance in MMO's. What I mean is that certain classes will have their roles. Some classes will completely suck to level solo but will be awesome in groups. Some classes will be awesome solo, some will be awesome in PvP, someone will not be awesome in PvP. The only thing I will balance is that all classes will have a need at some point, whether it is a specific skill that only they can do or not. I just don't believe in game to make sure every class can solo or every class is good in PvP. I just think it makes classes lame. In addition, I would make it balanced enough where at least the killing speed of the soloable classes are somewhat similar.
For example, one class I will have is a wizard, this class will require components for each spell, the cast time will be 30 seconds up to 5 minutes per spell, but the damage output would be astronomical. This would mean that they would suck solo in almost any situation, but used properly in a group or a siege, would be ridiculous.
Like average DPS for a sorc with instant casts may be 100 dps, the wizard may be 800 dps, but the rub is that if the wizard gets attacked, it may lose its concentration and the spell fails. Yes, it will be useless in solo PvP but I don't really care. It is sort of like artillery is great when you have stuff in front, but if an artillery piece is found alone on the battlefield, even 20 soldiers can take it out etc.
So the base skills are available for everyone person. The prestige classes will be 1 per char and are limited to those classes. So the skills will be different once you choose the prestige class.
I'd also have it, to choose your prestige class, you have to go through a ridiculous long quest chain like in Lineage 2.
Cryomatrix
That is my 2 cents. Just blabbering about.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
*Unfortunately, my response is too long so I broke it into 2 responses:
PART 1
1. Structure: Does your system involve classes or pre-determined archetypes? - Classes-
Let me define what a class is. A class is an avatar of role that is functioning in the game world via the Player. Archetypes are typically categorized by how that role functions. On a basic view you have melee, caster and ranged.
Before I can give insights of the direction of this structure let me give you an brief overview of my game design philosophy. This will give an understanding of why I am implementing these specific designs.
Game Design Philosophy: My Game design focuses on four pillars: Challenge, Community, Variety and Immersion. These four pillars are incorporated in all aspects of my core gameplay and design.
Class Design Philosophy: I believe in an Open Class system which means that when you chose a class to play, you always have full access to that class at any given time. Note that Players will not gain access to their full library of skills/spells at one time but rather obtain an average of 3 new skills/spells every 5 levels as you progress (55 being current level cap).
In my class system, I do not have any class trees, class specs or anything of that nature as it ruins role distribution, breaks the class and bottlenecks the player into a linear play style. The diversity of play comes in via the Combat Mechanics and what skills/spells you have active on your Hot Bar.
The idea is to allow the player to have freedom and choice of what skills/spells they want on thier hot bar. The choice will come from two facets: A: Situational circumstances of gameplay (adaptability) and/or B: Their specific play style.
I really liked how in Everquest, I would have different Hot Bar sets for different situational gameplay and the same idea holds here. However, it will be more intuitive to what hot bar sets you may use. Simply, the behavior of AI for certain NPC Mobs are different depending on zone and NPC type. As a melee player you may have a Hot Bar set to fight Orcs and you may have a Hot Bar set to fight Lizardmen NPCs because they both approach their opponent in combat differently. You can always alternate between Hot Bar sets out of combat.
I am using Thematic Class Design
Every class designed has a focus in thematic core mechanics. That means that every class has a different play style in accordance to their role and lore. This provides synergy between classes as each class will have fluidity of gameplay. Naturally, a Wizard would not play the same as a Tempest or a Nethermancer class.
-
1AStructure: Type of Combat Mechanics - (This question should be added as well because Class design has to have a direct correspondence to Combat Mechanics)
My MMORPG is top heavy PVE gameplay. I believe the natural evolution to make PVE more innovative is adaptable Combat Mechanics that complement Adaptive AI.
I have two different structures of Combat Mechanics that relate to each primary archetype.
Melee Combat Mechanics: I have implemented a Guard system that is a direct translation of European Swordsmanship. Note that I am still using Tab Targeting and will not focus in Twitch Gameplay. A Guard is the ready position and posture of which you hold your weapon to strike or parry. This means that Guards are accessed through Weapon Type and/or Weapon Handle. Guards are essentially a deterrent to determine the pathway of swordplay and will not determine damage. There are Striking, Countering and Parrying Guards.
Caster Combat Mechanics: I am still using a more traditional scope of Casting Mechanics that we currently see in MMORPG's today. Each spell will have a cast time. To ad flavor to Casting and to make it more meaningful, I have designed a Spell Combo System where spell schools can react to the previous spell school to create an effect. These effects can generate additional DPS/Healing output, Mana Conservation, survivability or a blend of both.
My Combat Mechanics are designed in a way that is easy to learn but hard to master. I want players to become a tactician and understand their opponent and how to adapt to their opponent in combat. This involves player skill.
2. Stats: Does your system utilize attributes or stat-points?
Stats is an element that makes RPG gameplay what it is. However, I don't want to fall into the mess of complete gear dependency for gameplay. Traditional RPG gameplay revolves around Stat distribution and favors the Min/Max crowd. However, I am approaching Stat Points in a different light were they will absolutely help but players won't be fully dependent on them.
Before I go on about stats, we must discuss how stats are distributed over gear. I am not taking the traditional route of predetermined stats on gear on drops. Rather, I am focusing on NPC/Player crafting to make your own gear templates and sets. Players will gather different molds and materials and take them to an NPC or Player Crafter to make their desired item. There are no predetermined stats on crafting gear. This means players can allocate whatever stats points they want into their piece allowing players to be fully customizable with their stat progression. Stat points depend on two variables. 1: Grade of Item (determines how stat points you can allocate in that particular gear piece and 2: Slot of Item (determines how many different stats you can allocate in that piece).
I think the best approach for my particular gameplay method is to have Universal Stats. That means that any class from any archetype/role can benefit from any stat they desire to focus in. I have 7 different stats. Players can max out at 100% of 3 stats they desire and gain a 75% status on the 4th stat they want to focus in.
3. Progression: Does your system utilize levels? If not, how do players progress?
To me, the best route of gameplay is found in SandPark Games such as Everquest. My system will use level progression but not in a linear hand holding way. I like that there are multiple zones to chose from within certain level ranges to progress. It may take a few alts to experience other zones you may have ignored on your main.
I am still of the old school mmo mentality that it's a journey to end game and that leveling is not a race to end game content. So level progression will be a bit slowed down to what we are commonly use to in this era of MMO's.
4. Setting: What is the setting of your skill system (science fiction, fantasy, occult etc.)?
When I discuss my game design ideas to players in many MMO's I typically tell them my theme is Mid-Fantasy with a focus on Medieval Fantasy with Magic. I would say it's a nice blend of Everquest + Game of Thrones + Lord of the Rings.
5. Balance: Is your system limited (characters can only obtain a certain subset of skills) or limitless (can obtain all skills)?
I particularly wouldn't categorize this question as a balance question but more or less a distribution question. Plus I already answered this question above.
I'll answer in regards to balance for classes. I believe many players have a complete misunderstanding of how class balance works. This is the method I am using to balance my current classes.
Layer 1: Determine Roles. This is where I will determine what roles are available in gameplay and what classes have access to what roles. This layer is where you the foundation of rule set of your class design should start and should be a very basic level of what roles can produce damage and mitigation.
Layer 2: This is where you should balance Pure/Hybrid classes. If there are Pure/Hybrid Classes. Balancing Pure/Hybrid classes is a tricky endeavor because you have to make Hybrid Classes not over powering compared to Pure Classes and vice versa.
Layer 3: This is the most common layer where players believe Class Balance solely is done and where most designers balance. Layer 1 and Layer 2 MUST be balanced. If Layer 1 and Layer 2 is broken then Layer 3 will be most challenging to balance. - Layer 3 is where you balance HP/Damage/Mana Ratios, Skills/Spell output and anything that involves class abilities and combat.
I hope at least one person reads this ha
Think of skill decay as a means of balance. The player doesn't lose access to the abilities or any of the traits/passives of the skill, but rather gets a debuff to the effectiveness of the skill. The skill decay system is similar to the upkeep players engage in on a regular basis with daily events/quests and other similar activities. Players with 'decayed' skills are still effective, just not at their maximum effectiveness. The process of re-mastering a skill or removing the "decay" effects is quicker (dependant on disposition) than the original mastery of the skill.
Regarding your comments on build diversity, I think you may be right that some builds might shine more than others when talking about combat. However, your mistake is in assuming that there are 'build paths' within the skill system (character sheet) that optimize the PC's effectiveness in combat more than other build paths (think POE), which isn't the case. The skill are internally balanced, in that there are no secret or 'more effective' ways to master a skill. Secondly, the abilities themselves (specific actions, combat moves etc.) are actually a part of the itemization system, which means that yes...there may be that perfect weapon composition for every situation, but without diving too deep into itemization there really isn't any indication as to how many situations that there are in which that "ideal build" would really shine.
I think some of your concerns and ideas are valid while others are too heavily rooted in the current status quo. Not to call you closed-minded, but I do think some of my explanation left certain ideas lost in translation.
Using it when they die instead is better, because you don't punish them for not playing, instead you punish them for screwing up while the actual effect still is the same.
As for having the skills balanced no MMO ever succeeded with that, not even close. Games using the mechanic (like Darkfall) get a lot of similar characters.
Well, there is a game that did an excellent job that gave you access to more or less all skills: Guildwars. But Guildwars both had a severe limitation to how many skills you could equip (8) and were made so you really needed to have players with different builds (something you can do but it is pretty hard).
No matter how you do, some skills will be weaker then others, combat skills or not. Also, some skills will work best together with certain other skills. Players always find an optimal build in any MMO, particularly if you don't have any specific limitations. If you don't want to put some mechanical limit you need to make the skill decay so bad that people only can max out a few skills at the same time and make it so a party need access to most skills in the game or every character will use the same effective guild someone posted on the net.
That is at least my experience, both in computer RPGs and pen and paper roleplaying.
The real balancing system is disposition, as it is what drives the rate of mastery gain and would also drive the penalty for dying. In the game world penalizing mastery actually makes a lot of sense, as you are being transported through space time which in the game causes memory loss. When the PC wakes up on the planet they have forgotten their past etc.
I realize balancing skills is an impossible task, but it is a necessary endeavor to attempt to, as with all things improvement is something we should strive for. That being said, the idea is to find the balance in different (an impossible task) like rock, paper, scissors...each cancels another out and is different in appearance but each is equally powerful rock vs paper is not balanced for rock...etc.
Yeah, the real issue with balancing is that we do want many possible skills in the game and the more we get the harder it is to balance them.
The none combat skills if you have them are a bit easier to add as long as they are useful to any group. For instance is lockpicking and trapfinding good skills that are an advantage to any party, lockpicking means you will find some extra treasure and trapfinding that your party avoid some hurt, which is particularly useful to avoid stepping in dodo while fighting mobs. There you just need to find the right amount of locked chests or traps to make the skill useful but not OP, most groups want at least someone that has skills like that.
It is the combat skills that is the real problem. Balancing skills on damage, cooldown, eventual point cost, effects (like debuffing an opponent), damage type (if some or your mobs are weak or strong against certain damage) and so on is really hard. Both the actual attack skills and the weapons needs advantages and disadvantages that makes the skill stand out from any other skill. There is really no point to have 20 skills that are similar and makes about the same DPS.
Having 50 different combat skills that are about as useful is very hard and I am not sure how to solve that in a good way. Locking skills to a specific weapon helps though since the players can't find the 10 (or less) most powerful skills and rotate them, it is far easier to balance. Then you could balance 5-10 weapons against eachother instead of 50-100 separate attacks.
Even that is rather hard but it is way easier then trying with the rock-scissor-paper thing, all the games that try that uses class packages of skills and they still rarely do a very good job at it.
I do think your idea is starting to sound fun as long as you can figure out a good way to balance skills so we don't get 1 or 2 feasible builds, because there is no point in having loads of skills no-one uses.
The one thing to avoid in MMO combat is skill rotation, it makes the combat very stale and boring compared to using the right skill at the right moment for maximum effect. That is by no means an easy task either.
BTW: I didn't post a design because my ideal system would be far too bare-bones to even be considered a skill system. I look forward to the next design challenge, though!
Here is the system I have envisioned for Alien Ruins of Tartarus
1. Structure: Classless system with optional Archetypes that provide sample stat and skill sets. There are no benefits to choosing archetypes, they are only provided to quick character creation. Some skills are limited or more accessible to characters of different backgrounds, or with certain advantages and disadvantages.
2. Stats: Characters will have stats defining all characteristics and affecting skill effectiveness. Higher stats like skills will require practice to maintain. Items would only provide obvious stat benefits. A rifle may have improved accuracy, but wouldn’t make you smarter, a cyber arm could have enhanced strength, legs improved speed and jump height/distance.
3. Progression: Skill based progression. Skill are improved through use or offline practice. Offline practice will be limited in effectiveness, usefull for raising low level action skill, maintaining high level ones, or advancing knowledge skills. New skills can be learned through trainers or could be unlocked through exposure in game.
4. Setting: Space age Cyberpunk. On a new alien world, with genetically hybridized soldiers, psychics, androids, cybernetics, hacking, corporate conflict and corruption. Characters with the right hardware will also be able to purchase synthetic skills, these will have limits, disadvantages, and can be lost completely.
5. Balance: The number of skills any one character can have will be limited. Mastery of more than one field will be very difficult, but possible for some exceptional characters. High level skills will require constant use or they will degrade. Character’s offline time can be allocated to skill development, practice, or lifestyle support.
This is why so many games,i consider them just bad,they look like ideas were tossed together over a coffee.
Game design is massive,you need to spend months and hundred pages designing just combat alone.
Game design needs to follow what the game itself is trying to do,i see so many crappy designs that are trying to be something else it is not.
I would need to be asked to focus on one area of a game design be it just character stats,mob stats,mob Ai,character design etc etc,all take way too long to explain as a whole.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I'm divided on question 1 about classes. I could see going either of two ways:
Type A: No classes and let people purchase whatever skills they liked from the pool of all skills; but some would have to be unlocked in the gameworld by completing a quest chain or dungeon.
Type B: What I don't like is trinity-based gameplay, so I definitely wouldn't want to have a tank class, a healer class, and a dps class. But I could see something like a stealth/trap/decoy class, a pet-user class where the pet is a mini-tank or a healbot, a druid class that combines shapeshifting and placing glyphs to create zones of healing or damage, and a warrior/paladin class for people who like to faceroll. Four classes that are pretty much independent and equal, but provide a wide variety of play styles.
The other questions I'd answer the same for both:
2. No, there are no spendable stat points. Though there might be bonus stats on gear or across-the-board stat increases when leveling up.
3. Yes, levels; the only thing I'd try to do differently is cancel out the trend for it to be super fast to level at the beginning and super slow to level near the end. To me the leveling-up process is the game, and if MMOs weren't trying to milk money out of everyone they'd encourage people to move to a different game after reaching max level and defeating the top dungeon.
4. Setting would be fantasy, but not freaking high fantasy, I'm so sick of Tolkien and D&D derivatives. Comic fantasy, biofantasy, pirate or ninja fantasy, everyone's-a-dragon fantasy, ANYTHING that's not Lord-Of-Warthrones all over again.
5. Limitless, I really detest limited systems. It's ok if a build results in some skills being comparatively weak and thus unused, while a different build strengthens those and weakens others, as long as redoing your build is relatively cheap and easy. Similarly it's ok if the choice between gear sets pushes you toward one of a few archetypes, as long as you can change archetypes by getting different gear.
The problem is that it is easier to design high fantasy games, particularly if you plan to keep regular trinity and character mechanics most MMO use. Games that should be low fantasy like Age of Conan therefor tend to be very close to high fantasy as well. You can bet that if someone makes a real GOT MMO you would have healer and mages all over the place no matter what the books and series have.
Most MMO devs want your barbarian running around with magic jewelry and crap even if Conan would beat the crap out of you for wearing it while calling you something homophobic. No barbarian would run around with earrings, rings and golden amulets, at least none with self respect.
But the point of most MMOs is to loot cooler gear so they have lots of slots that are a bit suspicious at best. I do feel that the item mechanics in general could be made far better, if you like gear then add more armor slots and maybe have several parts you could change on weapons instead of silly slots like earrings and "accessories".
No. or maybe. If yes, it would just give the character a small headstart to realizing what kind of character she would want to be.
2. Stats: Does your system utilize attributes or stat-points?
Yes.
3. Progression: Does your system utilize levels? If not, how do players progress?
No. Progression through gear and attributes like strength, dexterity, intelligence, constitution etc
4. Setting: What is the setting of your skill system (science fiction, fantasy, occult etc.)?
Fantasy.
5. Balance: Is your system limited (characters can only obtain a certain subset of skills) or limitless (can obtain all skills)?
Limitless. I was thinking of balancing the characters with the armor they are wearing and with attributes. Characters can obtain all skills but they can't max all attributes. In this system there would have to be some kind of equilibrium between the attributes of a character so that she doesn't become all powerfull.
*Would require gear, such as a wand, Relic, sword, whatever correlates to skill line.
*Would not make skill in one apply to others such as sword skill = any other weapon proficiency, each their own with a separate "teaching NPCs". *
*No instant casting, healing, Archery,...only melee combat has instant skills. *
*Would do away with MANA and Stamina separation, put it all into energy (no spamming mana skills then switching to stamina skills). Energy itself could be progressed or gear enhanced.
*No set energy cost per skill, swing as hard as you want, incant as long as you want for additional effect (harded and longer = more energy and chance of miss/fizzle) so players can feel interactive with combat and energy management.
*Create an overall synergy from skill progression/Gear/Energy management/skill customization/playstyle
For example, if fantasy and magic, players should start from scratch and develop their own skill line.
*Pick the skill line: Element, Nature, Illusion, Necro, so forth
*Choose the effect: DD, DOT, Buff, so on
*Add to spell book
*progress spell/modify spell as you progress (range/AOE/secondary effects)
Practical use: Player starts to cast a spell through incantation, spell forms in front of player on screen, the longer he cast the more powerful/energy it takes. All the while he can add things he knows to the spell (just like a combo combat he has different spell features he knows and is actively designing the spell), he then locks, aims, fires the spell. Buffs, gear enhancement, so on each have slightly different mechanics, but spell casting is now interactive and customized based on the player. The gear/wand in this case would determine how fast a player can create each component of the spell.
Melee would be along the same lines. Learn and progress Parry, deflect, feint, critical strikes, disarm, ...so many different skills involved in just wielding a sword. Axes, Dagger, Polearm,... all would require different techniques and create a different feel for Melee.
Practical use: Strong feint, and strong parry = increase DD and crit %. So if a feint causes for to parry, you duped him into a parry and can parry back at increase results. Not only what you do in combat matters, but what you get the foe to react to does too. Combos would do the most damage, but need to be set up before release...like predetermined actions that may not work at all, that is the risk of using the energy up for a greater chance of damage.
Balancing is a PVP issue IMO, but there should still be a balance of how long it takes to perform a skill to how powerful it is. Casters vs melee is a trade off of instant action vs longer skill prep/more damage.
Staring should be go to appropriate guild apprentice: Caster - Priest - Thief - Archer - Armsman base classes are fine to start the skill progression. They provide a weak tool/gear and a simple spell along your chosen skill line. They will only direct you to another teacher based on your "deeds" factions, so on (auto tracked). I would include instructors that become available based on proficiency in multiple skills.
Just a brief look at it. Think skills should be like crafting, not only in the progression, but in actual combat. May be less "twitchy" than a lot of players seem to like, it would be more thoughtful and player controlled. Hold that cast too long, burn your energy and you feint.
As others have said, a skill system needs to be thought of as part of the whole game and cannot really be taken in isolation. So, I'll try to give you a bit of background on what I would want my game to generally be about / achieve in relation to a skill system.
My goals:
- Deep combat system - players should be constantly thinking of what skill to use next, rather than just rattling off a set rotation or constantly dodging / aiming.
- Interesting meta game - players should be encouraged to experiment with new builds and new playstyles for their character
- Horizontal progression - I basically want to do away with power gaps so that playing with other people is as straight forwards as possible. My system is all about specialising, rather than simply getting more powerful.
- Multiple routes for progression - I don't want players stuck in a quest grind for all their skill progression, I want something more varied.
My game would utilise tradition tab-targeting with a GCD on skills. I would be aiming for each class to have roughly 60 skills that they can acquire in total, but only 20 skill slots -> this is where the meta game comes in.Of those 60 skills, 50% would be "standard" skills whilst 50% would be "situational" -> this feeds into the deep combat system. If half your skills are situational, it means constantly making judgement calls on whether to use them or not.
Also, of the 60 skills, a minimum of 10 but more like 15-20 would be group orientated.
This setup then really offers you the ability to specialise. If you are a casual solo player then you'd want to choose 15 standard solo skills and 5 situational -> this would give you a strong skillset for solo killing stuff along with a few situationals for when you're low health or whatever. If you're more group orientated, you probably want more like 7 solo, 7 group and 6 situational.
1. Structure: Does your system involve classes or pre-determined archetypes?
My system would have classes, but the more important thing from my point of view is my system is based around roles:
- DPS
- Tank
- Healer
- Buffer
- Debuffer
- Crowd Control
I've always felt that the trinity is too limiting, but that going without roles is too relaxed. More roles is my preferred solution. By having more set roles, you open up content design to more interesting possibilities than just the trinity.I also recognise that DPS is the most popular role, primarily for aesthetic and speed reasons. To that end, all the other roles will be able to spec / choose skills that essentially turns them into a DPS role. The rough balance I would be looking for is that if a tank fully specced for DPS, they would be able to achieve roughly 80% of the DPS of a pure DPS class, whilst retaining about 20% of their tankiness.
2. Stats: Does your system utilize attributes or stat-points?
The stat system is something separate from the skill system and deserves a thread of its own. They should be designed together but for the purposes of this thread and my skill design, it is not really worth discussing. For example, the presence of a "strength" stat has no bearing on the acquisition and use of a "taunt" skill.
That said, yes, my game would have character stats. I would base them on fairly generic fantasy tropes, but I particularly liked LotROs stat system (health, power, 6 primary stats, 10+ secondary stats).
3. Progression: Does your system utilize levels? If not, how do players progress?
No levels. My system is all about specialisation.
Progression of your character is achieved in multiple ways:
- Acquiring new skills
- Acquiring new traits / passives
- Acquiring new gear
As we're focused on skills, I'll only talk about them. As stated at the top, I want multiple ways to progress / acquire skills. The acquisition should be context-sensitive, but would be roughly from the following sources:- Kills - e.g. kill 1000 enemies with an armour piercing weapon would unlock a new skill that debuffs armour
- Quests - e.g. you do a quest for an aging warrior, at the end of which he teaches you his signature move
- Named Mobs - e.g. you kill Khal Drogo and learn a new dodge move that increases evasion for 30s.
- Dungeons / Raids - first successful clear unlocks a skill
- PvP - 10 killing blows, 5000 kills, 100k renown etc unlocks new skills
- Exploration / Lore - visiting certain locations, or reading certain lore or whatever could unlock new skills
There are three main goals I want to achieve by unlocking skills from different types of activity:1. Reduces monotony via varied activities for progress
2. Get better at your chosen activity by doing that activity - if you like pvp, then doing pvp will unlock more skills that are perhaps more pvp appropriate.
3. Encourage people to enjoy more styles of play
It is my experience that games that really separate activities (pvp, dungeons, raiding, soloing, crafting) end up developing communities with a serious "us vs them" mentality. However, games that encourage cross-over (like lots of grouping, or consensual world pvp, or a strong player economy) end up with a much more balanced and cohesive community which in turn increases retention. So, my design is likely to piss off some of the die hards ("why am i forced to do that dungeon to unlock a skill, I'm a pvper!") but the aim is to design skills and their unlock methods so as not to disadvantage particular playstyles. For example, a sprint skill is particularly useful in pvp, so I would hope a raider wouldn't feel forced to do pvp for that skill as they don't really need it.
4. Setting: What is the setting of your skill system (science fiction, fantasy, occult etc.)?
The setting has no bearing on the skill system. However, my preference is for high fantasy.
5. Balance: Is your system limited (characters can only obtain a certain subset of skills) or limitless (can obtain all skills)?
Each class is limited, both by what skills they can acquire (roughly 60 per class) and what they can actually use (20 slots of their toolbars).
However, my aim is horizontal progress, not vertical. Balance is a rock-paper-scissors type thing, combined with self determination. I'll give you some examples.
You start the game as a DPS class with one skill: slash. It does 100 slash damage, with an additional 10 damage over time.
You later unlock stab. It also does 100 damage, but it is armour piercing.
You later unlock bludgeon. It also does 100 damage, but applies a 5s stun.
All three would share a cooldown. Each skill has its use and all are roughly equivalent on paper, but their use is dependant on the situation. If you were a soloer, you might have all 3 on your toolbar so that you can pick the appropriate skill based on the enemy. If you're a raider, you cant waste 3 toolbar slots on essentially 1 skill, so you'd pick your preference (probably AP) and use the spare skillslots for situational / group abilities instead.
What you end up with is vast degrees of specialisation. As a PvPer, I would probably choose skills that give me burst damage and armour piercing, combined with self-preservation skills. It would make me good at 1v1 or picking off stragglers, but in prolonged fights / raids I'd be weaker than someone who chose AoE skills and group buff skills.
Combining multiple roles into a single class also tends to cause problems. The EQ1 cleric class was essentially a combination of tank (damage absorption), healer (doh), and buffer (+HP related buffs). Once EQ evolved beyond the early years, the cleric became a superior solo class.
One observation about the 'roles => classes' approach: this is generally built around a group of characters fighting a single opponent. I'm not sure the standard roles really work in games with a truly unique approach (10 on 10). Maybe, but it might be highly dependent on the specifics of the combat system. (collision detection).
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Goals
- 20 Active Skills is a lot (two full traditional hotbars) and 60 skills is too many, especially if they are limited by Class. You would have to have so much overlap that the classes would start to blend together. The amount of active skills and the amount of skills available directly contradicts meta game system, players would utilize the top 20 most efficient/effective skills (as there would be overlap/redundancy with 60 total) and it would discourage experimentation. My suggestion: reduce your numbers to a more manageable and realistic amount (6-10 active and ~30 total per class) -- look to other similar games to get a realistic idea.
- Based on your skill breakdown, you have three broad categories: Solo, Situational, and Group, these are three great starting points for progression using your system (section 3).
1. Structure
- Your roles:
These are a bit too uneven from a gameplay perspective. DPS dishes out damage and has an active role in encounters with trackable metrics. Tanks mitigate damage and protect allies, both active roles in encounters with trackable metrics. Healers keep allies alive by healing injuries/restoring health, an active role with trackable metrics. However, Buffers and Debuffers enhance the other three roles, playing a passive role without trackable metrics. Crowd Control on the other hand controls the flow of the fight and is critical for certain strategies, and can have a sort of trackable metric (total CC time), but is a bit contrived as a standalone role.
A great place to look for inspiration regarding role diversification is MOBA or RTS games. Check out this list I curated from Paragon's "Trait System".
Assassin/Burst - Single Target DPS
Controller - CC/Buffer
Durable - Tank/Off-Tank
Elusive - Mobility/Evasive
Guardian - Healer/Support
Sieger - Multi-target DPS
Zoner - CC/Debuffer
2. Stats: No comments
3. Progression
- Your progression system utilizes objectives-based progression with horizontal "scaling" instead of experience, leveling, and vertical scaling. Your reasoning behind this is that it reduces monotony and increased the available options for progressing in the game. However, your examples of "kill 1000 of X" to obtain X skill is actually more monotonous and repetitive than your average experience system, as in experience systems you gain experience from a variety of combat and non-combat tasks in the world. Think of experience as a homogenization of your system, making it more freeform. What your system does is it colors the experiences the player makes by assigning them to specific skills, giving a purpose to the actions a player takes in the game.
Think of your system from the perspective of someone who wants to get really really good at a single facet of gameplay, lets say they want to be the best Archer in the game (Min/Max) and so they choose the archer class and want to obtain/learn all of the best (they have done their homework) Archer skills available. What this player will do is track each and every progression for each ability (regardless of whether it is tracked in Engine) and knock them out one at a time, systematically. This basically puts the player on a sort of rail system.
Furthermore, your system potentially forces players to branch out from their specialization to acquire necessary skills from other game modes. This does a few things that I don't like: it mandates a playstyle (counters the RP nature of a game) to acquire potentially necessary abilities and it adds a mixture of players into dedicated game modes that are there just for "progression". This reminds me of players joining battlegrounds in WoW just to get PVP gear so that they could raid in it, as it was easier to obtain than and get your iLVL up with.
To be clear, I am not taking issue with this concept, as it is actually my preferred concept, but for different reasons. My reasoning is not that it will be less monotonous, but rather that it will be more immersive, and not that it will be less repetitive, but more realistic. Overall, I think your example numbers are a tiny bit too large, but that depends on the game's overall pace. Your overall reasoning for employing such a system is more in line with my reasoning, it gets people doing the skill to advance it, rather than piddling around and still advancing all of their character, it encourages specialization.
4. Setting
Perhaps this statement was directed toward your posted skill system, but setting certainly has a large effect on a skill system. It specifically affects the nature of the attributes, abilities, progression, and other skill system mechanics. A space game like EVE online would not marry as well to a traditional fantasy MMORPG skill system with hotbars, health and mana, attributes, and talents as it does to its current skill system. The setting is perhaps the most important part of the game when defining the actual abilities (read: actions a player can make in the game), such as using guns, grenades, magical attacks, turrets, etc. In fact the whole idea of the Trinity begins to fall apart in certain settings, why would there be a person "Tanking" and "Healing" in a Wild West themed MMORPG?
5. Balance
While I am in total philosophical agreeance with you on horizontal progression being the way forward for MMORPG design, I am a bit confused as to why you would start a character off with a combat ability. This skews the gameplay toward combat as the primary activity and further narrows the scope of your goal of encourage players to experiment.
In my mind a game that offers horizontal progression, perfectly marries to the idea that an MMORPG should offer a wider range of Jobs/Professions/Roles/Classes. Above I gave you some examples of alternative roles from Paragon, but I left out: Crafting, Exploring, Cartography, Building, and a variety of other non-combat roles that players could potentially make their primary role in a virtual world. Just some food for thought.
You want a class-based game, horizontal progression, and deep specialization. How do you plan on achieving these goals when classes have approximately 60 skills to acquire (classes will blur together) that focus on combat and are contained within branching and potentially linear progression lines?
Overall I think this is a well thought-out system. I disagree with some of your fundamental design decisions, but I think you married your ideas well together. Don't take my criticism too harshly, as I am playing Devil's Advocate for the sake of helping you fine tune your ideas or defend them whilst adding clarity to the discussion.