Independent Development To Continue & Looking For Its Niche - Pathfinder Online - MMORPG.com

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Independent Development To Continue & Looking For Its Niche - Pathfinder Online - MMORPG.com

Pathfinder Online News - Paizo CEO Lisa Stevens has written an extensive letter to update backers and the Pathfinder Online community about the future of the game. After an independent analysis, it was determined that the game needs to find its niche but that it would be unlikely that any major player on the MMO scene would be interested in finishing development. As a result, Paizo has decided to move forward on its own to try to complete the game within next year.

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Scorchien

hmph .... good luck to them , was interested in this game at one point ..

Golelorn

What happened to the millions they squandered? That has to be a concern.

mgilbrtsn

I wish them the best, but they didn't really need to hire someone to tell them that this would be niche and that they wouldn't be competing against the AAAs. Also, I could have given them the advice to focus on core mechanics and that nobody really would want to buy them out.

Elvoc

Maybe its time to drop the Online tag and just shoot fro a decent RPG and hope for the best. To many MMO games just require to much time and money to finish correctly when your are a smaller company.

goboygo

Step one, get rid of the Unity engine.

Slapshot1188

" I have various marketing efforts planned that will bring in tens of thousands of people to try out the game"

And so the self-delusion continues...

Ridrith

They need to shoot this thing and put it out of its misery. Poor game, dragging itself along the cold hard ground all while bleeding out. End it guys. It's a failure.

saker

I have the greatest respect for any group trying to create a immersive world and not just a same-ol, same-ol game.

Slapshot1188

saker said:

I have the greatest respect for any group trying to create a immersive world and not just a same-ol, same-ol game.

I have more respect for those that set reasonable and achievable goals, do not try to play wordsmith games like Early Enrollment (no wipe) for a game literally years from release, and then actually deliver on those goals, on the timeline they say.

Wizardry

Very bad decision imo.
I feel she is simply stinging from lost money/investment and just won't give up trying to recoup some of that money.

If i personally was going to try and save his game,i don't think i would know where to start.I know  my own personal preference i look to combat and events,i mean a real server wide event similar to Besieged in FFXI or even their lesser Campaigns.
Besieged however needs a large city and several themed mob families that invade the city.Then you need to target a level as to how difficult the fights would be,imo aim for top end Boss with filler mobs to allow lower levels to have fun as well.
Then you create various rewards for whatever type of event you create.Then if your team is creative you create other ideas like it doesn't have to be a direct copy but along the lines of being able to hire npc's to aid your cause.

RARE is a very important mechanic in any game because players desire rare items.If you make it too easy to acquire then it is not rare anymore and loses value.IMO ou do not and SHOULD not ever make everything linear,meaning you must kill level 30 Boss to get that level; 30 rare item to craft.Instead you might create a very rare node that mybe only appears at a certain time of day or night or in certain weather.Perhaps there is a rng random recipe spawning mechanic,you know maybe that exploration pays off finding a rare node or recipe hidden beside a rock or in a broken vase etc etc.

It is called EFFORT,the more cool ideas and disco and rares the more it keeps players busy.

Then you have ideas for combat like flashy player to player combo.You do NOT create a "community"if everyone is playing solo.Allow rewards again i always point to FFXI because imo that design team was smarter than most others.Grouping allows you to have more buffs and debuffs as wlll to kill faster for bonus rewards for chain killing and they have to be a certain toughness.Xp should be weighted towards grouping as well with those added buffs you will kill faster,more efficiently.Once again you could do like FFXI and have players earn a certain level then they can quest a soloing class lie ka Beastmaster if they wanted.

options options options,the more your game offers the better fun it becomes and keeps players interested.Did i mention NO ALT gamin,instead the sub class allows players over longevity to continue improving their character with more and more choice/option.

Slapshot1188

SedrynTyros said:

Slapshot1188 said:

saker said:

I have the greatest respect for any group trying to create a immersive world and not just a same-ol, same-ol game.

I have more respect for those that set reasonable and achievable goals, do not try to play wordsmith games like Early Enrollment (no wipe) for a game literally years from release, and then actually deliver on those goals, on the timeline they say.

It seems like the timeline is the main thing these projects struggle with.  I never take the initial timelines seriously anymore as I have yet to see one of these projects meet their original milestone dates.  When I read "expected release date 2018" in my mind I'm thinking "possible beta in 2020".

But the problem is... time = money in this case.   If you think something is going to take 2 years and it takes 4... that may not double your costs (as you slowly ramp up) but it's certainly going to cost a LOT more!

That's why these projects always struggle and then have to go for Early Enrollment or similar instances where they expect you to pay fees for the privilege of testing their game and then also in return promise not to wipe your progress.   It really is the worst possible combination.

Slapshot1188

Also- Everyone should keep in mind that this game has a time based progression.  So people that would start to play in 2018 (when she says maybe they will be ready) will literally be YEARS and YEARS behind in progression with no chance of catching up.  You can't simply put in more time to try and level faster.  It's all about how long your subscription has run.  And this is a FFA PvP game based around territory control.  Even if there were a miracle and they overcame the blatantly outdated engine and fixed the multitude of gameplay issues... who in their right mind would want to start?

Loke666

Nyctelios said:

My friend backed this and showed it to me. I don't like Pathfinder (the d20 one), but the core mechanics of this project sounded really cool.... But yeah, who thought this was not a niche game, ffs?!

That is actually a huge problem, people who like the IP don't like the game and the ones who like the game don't care much for the IP. 0

I would suggest a namechange ASAP,  first to a project name and when the game actually is ready for beta then the real name, something that attracts the players actually enjoying this type of game. As an added bonus it would rub off some of the failure points the first team got.

Once that is done I would review what mechanics that the current fans like and what to rework, being a niche game is not necessarily a bad thing but if you go niche you need to be the best game possible for your target customers. A general game can have more less successful features since they attract people from a broader range, when you go small you need the people you aiming for to really love your game.

Once all mechanics are as good as possible you need to improve and expand the game and after polish it up.

Changing the engine is a major work just like changing the target group and try to get the Pathfinder fans liking it, both of those cost a lot of money Paizo doesn't seem willing or able to put in the project so neither will happen (and if they try without coughing up the needed cash we will see another failure).

That is at least my suggestion.

The better alternative would be selling the IP and what they got to someone competent (and they would likely scrap all work so far). Turbine would have been good 6 years or so ago but that is out. Amazon or Bethesda/Zenimax is probably the only ones with enough cash that at least would be slightly interested in one of the largest P&P IPs out there. I don't see someone like Blizzard to put in money into someone else IP, if they wanted to make a new MMO it will likely be either World of Diablo or Wow2, both having higher possibilities then Pathfinder since most Blizzard fans would buy anything labeled Diablo or Warcraft no matter what. But I am sure Lisa already figured all this out and tried all companies she could.

Loke666

Nyctelios said:

Loke666 said:

That is actually a huge problem, people who like the IP don't like the game and the ones who like the game don't care much for the IP. 0

I never took in consideration what you said. Pathfinder is a big tabletop RPG system - not here, though. Maybe Paradox could do something about it?

Possibly but I don't think Paradox really got the experience for a project like this. Zenimax actually do and while ESO could be larger it is doing pretty well at least.

Also, Bethesda own Zenimax and they actually could afford to make another AAA MMO, Paradox do have a more limited budget even if the company have many fans.

To my knowledge is the only MMO experience Paradox have "Salem: The Crafting MMO" and they only published that. 

Dakeru

I backed exactly 1 game in my life.
One day the head dev posted that she was awfully sorry but that she would stop all development on the game.

Everyone was sorry to hear that.
Everyone agreed that this was probably the best.

Years had passed without her finding a sponsor for her niche vision and it was obvious it was never going to happen.

Why can't Lisa have that simple insight?

superconducting

Honestly, it may be better if they just bail on this. The game is awful and beyond redemption without a massive overhaul.

Xiaoki

Loke666 said:

Nyctelios said:

Loke666 said:

That is actually a huge problem, people who like the IP don't like the game and the ones who like the game don't care much for the IP. 0

I never took in consideration what you said. Pathfinder is a big tabletop RPG system - not here, though. Maybe Paradox could do something about it?

Possibly but I don't think Paradox really got the experience for a project like this. Zenimax actually do and while ESO could be larger it is doing pretty well at least.

Also, Bethesda own Zenimax and they actually could afford to make another AAA MMO, Paradox do have a more limited budget even if the company have many fans.

To my knowledge is the only MMO experience Paradox have "Salem: The Crafting MMO" and they only published that. 

Bethesda is a subsidiary of Zenimax.

Afford another MMO? Are you joking? Zenimax is worth billions. The board of directors for Zenimax includes Jerry Bruckheimer, Cal Ripken Jr and Robert Trump.

But, ESO has found its niche and there would be no sense in creating/producing another MMO that competes with your existing MMO.

Lokero

Wizardry said:

Very bad decision imo.
I feel she is simply stinging from lost money/investment and just won't give up trying to recoup some of that money.

I couldn't agree more. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and move on. All they are going to accomplish is wasting another year and some more money at this rate.

That money they've lost is gone and it's not coming back. Maybe it's time to accept that and try to recover their losses on other projects...

Sovrath

Lokero said:

Wizardry said:

Very bad decision imo.
I feel she is simply stinging from lost money/investment and just won't give up trying to recoup some of that money.

I couldn't agree more. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and move on. All they are going to accomplish is wasting another year and some more money at this rate.

That money they've lost is gone and it's not coming back. Maybe it's time to accept that and try to recover their losses on other projects...

The other way to look at it is that they did take people's money and they want to at least give them something for that money.

Loke666

Xiaoki said:

Bethesda is a subsidiary of Zenimax.

Afford another MMO? Are you joking? Zenimax is worth billions. The board of directors for Zenimax includes Jerry Bruckheimer, Cal Ripken Jr and Robert Trump.

But, ESO has found its niche and there would be no sense in creating/producing another MMO that competes with your existing MMO.

Forking up $80 millions or so on a single game is something even companies like EA and Valve do rather carefully, there are risks.

But I don't think it would compete with ESO if they stay true to the IP, it should target another crowd just like Neverwinter and DDO does (but preferably a larger audience then them). What a Pathfinder game should do is focusing on people that like D&D and Pathfinder as well as people who like D&D based games. ESOs focus is more people who enjoy the TES games.

But then again, Zenimax probably wouldn't do it anyways, it would be even more profitable to license Forgotten realms or Dragonlance instead if they wanted to make that type of game. It was just a suggestion of someone competent enough to handle the license and I think they would pull it off. Or for that matter do they already own the Fallout license which also have a rather high MMO potential.

Nyctelios said:

I play Salem. Paradox bought it as a support step. The game itself is made by literally 2 people.

My point with Paradox getting it was changing from a MMO to just a RPG with multiplayer option like Neverwinter Nights.

Ah, that actually could work really well. NWN and NWN2 did pretty well and a game like that could be made for a tenth of a AAA MMORPG and still be good. I think Paradox could manage that, a full blown MMO would be a very different matter.

Another possibility would be making it into a CORPG similar to the original Guildwars, also far cheaper and easier then a full MMO and Guildwars did rather well without any famous IP to pull it.

In either case I don't see any need for the code Goblinworks did.

Wizardry

The only way to pull off a great game with a small budget is to aim for a small start.
That mans maybe 10 species of creatures,far less npc's,only one large city etc etc.

However even though you save a lot of time and money through less assets,you still need depth and content and events to keep players busy without 3500 linear quests.Linear game play is not even a MMO anyhow,i think players want to feel like the yare playing THEIR game not the same scripted content as everyone else.

This is the best content i have ever played in my entire life of rpg's.....This is how you get a player like me on board.

Lobotomist

Problem is since the game was largely funded by kickstarters, they can not just quit. It will induce rage, maybe even lawsuits ( where the money went )

This way they just keep 3 people kind of working on it ( we can not know if they are at all , or how much ... maybe hour a week ? ) And nobody can accuse them of squandering the money.

MMOExposed

Can somebody explain the niche that this game is? And why did it fail?

Lobotomist

SedrynTyros said:

Lobotomist said:

Problem is since the game was largely funded by kickstarters, they can not just quit. It will induce rage, maybe even lawsuits ( where the money went )



This way they just keep 3 people kind of working on it ( we can not know if they are at all , or how much ... maybe hour a week ? ) And nobody can accuse them of squandering the money.

Lawsuits?  Who's suing Embers of Caerus?

Yea. You are right.... Greedmonger...so many.

Still, by keeping appearance of "we are working on it" they have much less flak, for no personal cost. ( they dont have to be working on it, just claim that they are )

kikoodutroa8

I remember a time, not so long ago, when some people would defend this "game" against any form of criticism, explaining how the devs only needed time and that we were witnessing the greatest mmorpg ever in the making.