Well i can't argue the fact that if i don't know or understand the tech behind this ,then i simply don't know LMAO ...naturally.
So read i did.
500 or so battles,i highly doubt it,matter of fact ,impossible without a LOT of give away.
My personal taste or combat is controlled,not messy not spam all over the place and very few combatants to watch over.How can i create any thoughtful constructive combat if i have 500 other players around m?IMPOSSIBLE,so you end up with nothing more than SPAM away your cool combos.
I should make note that i fully approve of the idea of combination combat,that is exactly what i like,but self combos are TOO EASY and too easy to spam,that is why i like player>player combo,it relies on timing and coordination.
To the average pvp gamer the idea sounds fun,create stuff ,destroy stuff and cool combat but that si a shallow view on the game,i dig way deeper when i look for a game.
The last thing i could enjoy is spending time to build something ,then watch someone else destroy it..NO THANKS to wasting my time.Then you need to look at BALANCE and that will ALWAYS be the major problem in a pvp game and w/o balance it is a failed idea.
The games i enjoyed pvp...Quake,Unreal,EVERYONE has the same arsenal of weapons and can move anywhere they want as they choose.The imbalance was fighting for powerups an idea long argued over and something i am not in favor of,i prefer vanilla pure player minds versus player minds. Point being,i don't care what their selling point is on factions,i want way more anyhow,it comes down to the fact this is simply a pvp game and a linear one at that,your realm versus my realm,like a giant arena but with far less design to accommodate the best aspects of pvp.
Without going into one's choice of game, I do think that large-scale (1k) battles can become more than just spamming abilities if the game/UI are well designed. It's not easy, and nobody has done it fantastically yet, but it's worth trying. If we fail, at least we tried to create something reasonably unique in focus (not in lore of course) and difficult to do. Sort of like 1999.
Okay folks, that wraps it up for me tonight.
Thanks again Bill, Guest Writer, MMORPG, and everybody who posted here.
Oh, if I missed anything and you would like a comment from me, just ask, I'll be back tomorrow.
I think one of the coolest things that ever happened to me in DAoC was in Thidranki(sp?). There were two of us Hibbies running together, and we ran into a full group of Albs. As we were duking it out with them, 4-5 Mids came over the hill and saw what was happening. They fanned out and caught the Albs as they tried to escape the wrath of our lurikeens. The two smaller realms don't always "team up" so to speak, but there's a measure of cooperation that tends to happen. DAoC was my first real pvp-centric game, and the 3 realm system is sadly underutilized where it could add so much depth.
To me the islands themselves are the main BSC elements of the game. This one as aspect alone is awesome. The three factions will be constantly playing chess for the control of these puzzle pieces.
3 faction is good at start but become more and more unbalanced in time, especially if the sides are fixed.
Actually, unless one side is decidedly weaker than the others, it generally balances out. DAoC was quite balanced until they gave a long quest line overpowering powers. That had nothing to do with factions, just who had time to play all day for weeks on end.
All the similar 3 side games i have played ended very unbalanced for 1 side. And that happened sooner rather then later. No exceptions.
Nonsense. DAoC, the poster child for this game never had that issue. I am not aware of any other major 3 faction games. Since you don't seem to be able to provide any examples I will have to assume you are just making up excuses.
"Mark: I’ve always believed in the viability of three Realms/factions in a PvP game."
Agree. As "we" know however population imbalance can remain a problem - and in DAoC of course this resulted in "bonuses" for "underpopulated" realms of course - with "debateable" success.
My own view then was that an approach based on individuals was a better way to go and - as CU is not going to be using megaserver tech I feel that this idea may also apply today.
So what do I mean by an approach based on "individuals"?
The idea is grounded in the concept of "cosmic balance" or harmony - an idea that can be found in various fantasy works e.g. Katherine Kerr were a character's spirit might be "reborn" to do deeds for one faction to balance out deeds carried out in another life for a different faction.
From a mechanistic point of view. Three races A, B, C.
A player plays a race A character then as their tally of victories, kills grows they accumulate "karma A". Up to a certain point however this has no impact - they are simply famous. However at some point fame tips over into infamy and their karma then acts as a penalty to future kills (on dps, ac - whatever). May or may not be capped.
If the player plays race B and race C they also accumulate karma B and karma C.
What would then happen is that if the player is playing race A and they attack race B then their karma A would be compared to their karma B. Maybe as simple as A-B. Depending on the calculation they may or may not get a penalty. (Bonuses could also be generated as well depending on implementaion and the idea of a karma score being "OK" up to a point would be to reduce game calculations.
The idea however would be to "nudge" people into playing all three factions. People who only play one faction will end up with a penalty - something a lot of players don't like doing so, the concept goes, they will play one of the other factions.
No guarantee that this would maintain some semblance of realm balance but it could and it would also be self-adjusting; no weekly reviews etc.
It's an interesting idea. I don't love the punishment end of it (lower DPS) but without that part, it is similar to how we are going to handle bounties placed on opposing players by the king of the Realm that the player(s) are wiping the floor with.
Mechanistically punishments can also be bonuses of course: the nascent spirit of the other realms burns with a fervour that provides a bonus - in a character of another realm (played by the same player.)
Understand your comment about bounties being placed; think that will (potentially) be fun but not sure it will address realm balance issues - if they occur of course.
3 faction is good at start but become more and more unbalanced in time, especially if the sides are fixed.
Actually, unless one side is decidedly weaker than the others, it generally balances out. DAoC was quite balanced until they gave a long quest line overpowering powers. That had nothing to do with factions, just who had time to play all day for weeks on end.
All the similar 3 side games i have played ended very unbalanced for 1 side. And that happened sooner rather then later. No exceptions.
Nonsense. DAoC, the poster child for this game never had that issue. I am not aware of any other major 3 faction games. Since you don't seem to be able to provide any examples I will have to assume you are just making up excuses.
He's not wrong, there definitely were underpopulated realms back in the day, with Hibernia usually being the smallest on many servers.
They added a skip to level 30 at the start for those willing to reroll in a low pop real vs a skip to level 20 on others.
I think when the dust settled most players agreed skipping the early levels was not a good idea as it meant players lost a chance to develop long term relationships and properly learn to play their class.
I'm hoping CU has no plans to reuse this particular incentive again to resolve balance issues.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think one of the coolest things that ever happened to me in DAoC was in Thidranki(sp?). There were two of us Hibbies running together, and we ran into a full group of Albs. As we were duking it out with them, 4-5 Mids came over the hill and saw what was happening. They fanned out and caught the Albs as they tried to escape the wrath of our lurikeens. The two smaller realms don't always "team up" so to speak, but there's a measure of cooperation that tends to happen. DAoC was my first real pvp-centric game, and the 3 realm system is sadly underutilized where it could add so much depth.
Your post properly captured the intent of 3 faction RVR, it's not to ensure "equal" numbers between fights but rather to let two smaller realms gang up on the largest.
Does it always work out this way, no of course not, but on more than one occasion even in the zerg we would come across two realms fighting and help the smaller beat the larger first, before then turning on each other of course.
The choices for each realm vary in this scenario.
The smallest can choose to "trust" the new combatants and go all out against the primary.
This may depend on the primary's reaction to the new threat.
There are quite a few choices every side can and will make based on situation, logistics, hatred for one specific realm vs another etc. (several of my friends had a hatred for Hib and almost always killed them first no matter what.)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm gonna guess that the interviewer does not speak English as his native tongue. Some of that was painful.
What I found painful is the interviewer seemed unfamiliar with RVR or faction combat so could not grasp what the advantages were to Developer created "sides".
He appeared to be looking for the next iteration of FFA PVP games which Mark had to redirect the interviewer to.
Interviewer came across as a bit hostile or challenging, which could have been a translation issue or just because he was Russian and they're coming out of a long cold winter there.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Oh, if I missed anything and you would like a comment from me, just ask, I'll be back tomorrow.
I don't want another comment, I just want to thank you for your time. How often does a busy CEO of a game development company pop into threads and forums on a pretty regular basis to answer questions all willy-nilly? Rarely, it's a sight for sore eyes and truly appreciated.
As I mentioned to Max during one of his morning segments; To think its been a year now since we had that 'Push to Beta1' month. It's crazy how time flies and I for one can't wait to see CU become a game.
3 faction is good at start but become more and more unbalanced in time, especially if the sides are fixed.
Actually, unless one side is decidedly weaker than the others, it generally balances out. DAoC was quite balanced until they gave a long quest line overpowering powers. That had nothing to do with factions, just who had time to play all day for weeks on end.
This is an utter and complete lie. I was a hardcore DAOC player and it was NEVER balanced in the frontiers and everyone knows it. Always one if not 2 sides dominated not only by numbers but often simply in overall balance of better classes and synergy. The mechanics are never in place for the 2 weaker factions to truly work to overcome the power faction either. The most common occurrence in daoc was "xx faction out zerging tonight lets go play alts", and months would go by where one faction would own all relics on each server.
Mark Jacobs is a cancer, money grabber, always has been always will. You are cheering him on for what is DAOC 2.0 with the entire PVE content removed to cut costs, this game is taking forever to come out because he is constantly screwing over employees with his cheap ass money grabbing tactics.
3 faction is good at start but become more and more unbalanced in time, especially if the sides are fixed.
Actually, unless one side is decidedly weaker than the others, it generally balances out. DAoC was quite balanced until they gave a long quest line overpowering powers. That had nothing to do with factions, just who had time to play all day for weeks on end.
This is an utter and complete lie. I was a hardcore DAOC player and it was NEVER balanced in the frontiers and everyone knows it. Always one if not 2 sides dominated not only by numbers but often simply in overall balance of better classes and synergy. The mechanics are never in place for the 2 weaker factions to truly work to overcome the power faction either. The most common occurrence in daoc was "xx faction out zerging tonight lets go play alts", and months would go by where one faction would own all relics on each server.
Mark Jacobs is a cancer, money grabber, always has been always will. You are cheering him on for what is DAOC 2.0 with the entire PVE content removed to cut costs, this game is taking forever to come out because he is constantly screwing over employees with his cheap ass money grabbing tactics.
Apparently someone was a Hib, no wonder my friends always wanted to kill them, no tolerance for whining.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
MarkJacobs said:
Agreed. The good news is that we are not going for a huge audience (500K) but rather, a much smaller audience. What I'm hoping is that there are enough players who want to play a 3-faction game that they will support our game.
No offense but that sounds like terrible business plan...
Hey all! Sorry about not posting here sooner, spent most of the day with the Lady J out and about. Also saw the movie Life. The tl;dr on that is that it is probably the best movie about dumb scientists and a hostile alien life form starring Ryan Reynolds that I've seen today. 'Nuf said.
In terms of MMORPG, thanks for the story. Unfortunately this interview should have been completed sooner and it might have been longer, that one is on me. I was more tardy in my responses than I should have been. The writer's skills at English were not an impediment to me at all, I thank him for his efforts.
In terms of what has been said in this thread. I'll start posting now and we'll see how far I get tonight.
Aw... We saw Life simultaneously then. I wish you could do a proper AMA. I'm always driving when you are answering questions here.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
This is an utter and complete lie. I was a hardcore DAOC player and it was NEVER balanced in the frontiers and everyone knows it.
So then i ask WHY,would you be a hardcore pvp player to a non balanced game,do you like EASY mode wins? I was a hardcore Unreal series pvpr and if a competitor was anything but very good,i was not the least interested other than to perhaps give the player some hints or ideas to improve.Similar with pings,i enjoyed the challenge of playing from a disadvantage but if i had the ping advantage,it tuned me right off because it was just too easy.
I also never liked powerups which could be construed to be similar to better gear or better weapons or any other advantage.I only like the barest form of a challenge and that is me versus you,similar to a chess match more strategy than twitch movement. I still remember to this day a player blew up on me because the way i played.He basically said NOBODY plays strategy anymore,that is BORING,it is all about the action.So then i responded,so you want me to play DUMB and just lay down so you can kill me,he was all muffled after than and did not know how to answer. Point being i am talking from a HARDCORE position because this was mentioned,if you are just in a game to goof off and shoot at stuff,then really who cares what the game does,it could be Overwatch for all i care ..lmao.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
3 faction is good at start but become more and more unbalanced in time, especially if the sides are fixed.
Actually, unless one side is decidedly weaker than the others, it generally balances out. DAoC was quite balanced until they gave a long quest line overpowering powers. That had nothing to do with factions, just who had time to play all day for weeks on end.
This is an utter and complete lie. I was a hardcore DAOC player and it was NEVER balanced in the frontiers and everyone knows it. Always one if not 2 sides dominated not only by numbers but often simply in overall balance of better classes and synergy. The mechanics are never in place for the 2 weaker factions to truly work to overcome the power faction either. The most common occurrence in daoc was "xx faction out zerging tonight lets go play alts", and months would go by where one faction would own all relics on each server.
Mark Jacobs is a cancer, money grabber, always has been always will. You are cheering him on for what is DAOC 2.0 with the entire PVE content removed to cut costs, this game is taking forever to come out because he is constantly screwing over employees with his cheap ass money grabbing tactics.
Whilst I agree that there were "balance issues" - as evidenced "realm bonuses" - your characterisation of MJ is, imo, way off. See if you can dig up the reasons why Mythic was sold to EA - in case you can't a key point was that without the infusion of money to keep the team working on WAR going.
3 faction is good at start but become more and more unbalanced in time, especially if the sides are fixed.
Actually, unless one side is decidedly weaker than the others, it generally balances out. DAoC was quite balanced until they gave a long quest line overpowering powers. That had nothing to do with factions, just who had time to play all day for weeks on end.
This is an utter and complete lie. I was a hardcore DAOC player and it was NEVER balanced in the frontiers and everyone knows it. Always one if not 2 sides dominated not only by numbers but often simply in overall balance of better classes and synergy. The mechanics are never in place for the 2 weaker factions to truly work to overcome the power faction either. The most common occurrence in daoc was "xx faction out zerging tonight lets go play alts", and months would go by where one faction would own all relics on each server.
Mark Jacobs is a cancer, money grabber, always has been always will. You are cheering him on for what is DAOC 2.0 with the entire PVE content removed to cut costs, this game is taking forever to come out because he is constantly screwing over employees with his cheap ass money grabbing tactics.
Apparently someone was a Hib, no wonder my friends always wanted to kill them, no tolerance for whining.
Hey I was a Hib and that's part of what I loved about DAOC! I loved that all realms were different. Hell we complained about Clerics or Healers or Bonedancer pets or Necros or anything else. I hated the Albs and Mids...
Realm pride baby. Never felt that in any other game. By the way thanks for that tip a few weeks back on the DAOC server. Having an absolute blast with 6 buddies. Took and claimed Thid last night after some epic fights. Closing in on 30 now. (Playing as Mids this round).
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
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"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
3 faction is good at start but become more and more unbalanced in time, especially if the sides are fixed.
Actually, unless one side is decidedly weaker than the others, it generally balances out. DAoC was quite balanced until they gave a long quest line overpowering powers. That had nothing to do with factions, just who had time to play all day for weeks on end.
This is an utter and complete lie. I was a hardcore DAOC player and it was NEVER balanced in the frontiers and everyone knows it. Always one if not 2 sides dominated not only by numbers but often simply in overall balance of better classes and synergy. The mechanics are never in place for the 2 weaker factions to truly work to overcome the power faction either. The most common occurrence in daoc was "xx faction out zerging tonight lets go play alts", and months would go by where one faction would own all relics on each server.
Mark Jacobs is a cancer, money grabber, always has been always will. You are cheering him on for what is DAOC 2.0 with the entire PVE content removed to cut costs, this game is taking forever to come out because he is constantly screwing over employees with his cheap ass money grabbing tactics.
Whilst I agree that there were "balance issues" - as evidenced "realm bonuses" - your characterisation of MJ is, imo, way off. See if you can dig up the reasons why Mythic was sold to EA - in case you can't a key point was that without the infusion of money to keep the team working on WAR going.
Mark's "gone down on his sword" many times over the past 5 years. At this point his "redemption" from WAR's failure in the eyes of the fans of DAOC comes from successful delivery of a fun and playable CU.
While is taking longer than originally projected or hoped for, it was not wholly unexpected, at least by me for several reasons.
Key one which I feel every new software team fails to take into account is it takes a very long time to stand up a good team and hone it until it functions well at all levels.
Not at all unusual to see this take a year or longer and I'd guess this team took about 2 years to really get going at the planned target velocity. (due to the initial hiring challenges, not from a talent deficiency)
They still have some challenges with the distributed team, but at least they are on the same continent and there's no language barrier.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
3 faction is good at start but become more and more unbalanced in time, especially if the sides are fixed.
Actually, unless one side is decidedly weaker than the others, it generally balances out. DAoC was quite balanced until they gave a long quest line overpowering powers. That had nothing to do with factions, just who had time to play all day for weeks on end.
This is an utter and complete lie. I was a hardcore DAOC player and it was NEVER balanced in the frontiers and everyone knows it. Always one if not 2 sides dominated not only by numbers but often simply in overall balance of better classes and synergy. The mechanics are never in place for the 2 weaker factions to truly work to overcome the power faction either. The most common occurrence in daoc was "xx faction out zerging tonight lets go play alts", and months would go by where one faction would own all relics on each server.
Mark Jacobs is a cancer, money grabber, always has been always will. You are cheering him on for what is DAOC 2.0 with the entire PVE content removed to cut costs, this game is taking forever to come out because he is constantly screwing over employees with his cheap ass money grabbing tactics.
If you had the courage to say that publicly, with your real name, you'd be surprised what you found out. But instead, you throw out stuff like this through the anonymity of the Internet, whereas I'm standing here, my real name, no alias, etc.
You can say anything you like about Dark Age, my skill as a designer, etc. but if you actually had a clue about how people at City State Entertainment and old Mythic (pre-EA) were treated, you would realize how wrong you are. OTOH, you probably just don't care.
And if you would really care to know, you can look up what happened to Mythic after both Dark Age of Camelot was a success (Matt Frior wrote an article about it for Gamastutra) or after EA bought us. Unlike some other successful developers, I shared the proceeds and didn't keep them all for myself or the original co-founders (which EA wanted me to do and not share the proceeds with the team).
And if you don't believe me, well, get a lawyer and I have my lawyer send your lawyer some documents that will prove it. This is not a threat, this is a chance for you to be educated on what I have done and really do for the teams that work with me. And, if I'm so cheap-ass, why did I open a studio in Seattle, funding a lot of the game's development myself and more?
Like I said, you can hate me, think I'm a crappy designer, that's your opinion and you're welcome to it, but saying what you said about how I treat my team is both a lie and libel.
Post edited by MarkJacobs on
Mark Jacobs CEO, City State Entertainment
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Agreed. The good news is that we are not going for a huge audience (500K) but rather, a much smaller audience. What I'm hoping is that there are enough players who want to play a 3-faction game that they will support our game.
No offense but that sounds like terrible business plan...
No offense taken at all! Actually, at 50K subs for a team this size, it keep us going. At 100K, we are profitable. Why is this such a bad business plan? We set out to make this game with reasonable goals for its scope and its user base. From there we hope to branch out and do other games/get additional funding.
3 faction is good at start but become more and more unbalanced in time, especially if the sides are fixed.
Actually, unless one side is decidedly weaker than the others, it generally balances out. DAoC was quite balanced until they gave a long quest line overpowering powers. That had nothing to do with factions, just who had time to play all day for weeks on end.
This is an utter and complete lie. I was a hardcore DAOC player and it was NEVER balanced in the frontiers and everyone knows it. Always one if not 2 sides dominated not only by numbers but often simply in overall balance of better classes and synergy. The mechanics are never in place for the 2 weaker factions to truly work to overcome the power faction either. The most common occurrence in daoc was "xx faction out zerging tonight lets go play alts", and months would go by where one faction would own all relics on each server.
Mark Jacobs is a cancer, money grabber, always has been always will. You are cheering him on for what is DAOC 2.0 with the entire PVE content removed to cut costs, this game is taking forever to come out because he is constantly screwing over employees with his cheap ass money grabbing tactics.
Whilst I agree that there were "balance issues" - as evidenced "realm bonuses" - your characterisation of MJ is, imo, way off. See if you can dig up the reasons why Mythic was sold to EA - in case you can't a key point was that without the infusion of money to keep the team working on WAR going.
The reasons were simple, we had investors and they threatened to "call the debt" (TA Associates invested in Mythic via subordinated debt and equity) if we didn't sell the company. Calling the debt would have meant that we would have had to use almost all our available cash to pay off the sub-debt that TA put into us. That would have meant Mythic was screwed big time. My partner went along with them so I was outvoted. I had three choices, go along with their wishes, see if it was a bluff or be fired. It really was as simple as that. If I was wrong on it being a bluff, and TA called the debt, Mythic would have been out of most of its cash, and I would have had to layoff a lot of people and then be forced to sell the company out of necessity.
And, FYI, as I've said in other places, there was one time when I did quit Mythic. They insisted I come back, I insisted that they, TA, left us alone to work on WAR and get a better deal out of EA (with among other things, protections for the team which I later got from them).
Mark Jacobs CEO, City State Entertainment
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Hey all! Sorry about not posting here sooner, spent most of the day with the Lady J out and about. Also saw the movie Life. The tl;dr on that is that it is probably the best movie about dumb scientists and a hostile alien life form starring Ryan Reynolds that I've seen today. 'Nuf said.
In terms of MMORPG, thanks for the story. Unfortunately this interview should have been completed sooner and it might have been longer, that one is on me. I was more tardy in my responses than I should have been. The writer's skills at English were not an impediment to me at all, I thank him for his efforts.
In terms of what has been said in this thread. I'll start posting now and we'll see how far I get tonight.
Aw... We saw Life simultaneously then. I wish you could do a proper AMA. I'm always driving when you are answering questions here.
Hehe, bad timing, sorry. Happy to answer them today.
Mark Jacobs CEO, City State Entertainment
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Oh, if I missed anything and you would like a comment from me, just ask, I'll be back tomorrow.
I don't want another comment, I just want to thank you for your time. How often does a busy CEO of a game development company pop into threads and forums on a pretty regular basis to answer questions all willy-nilly? Rarely, it's a sight for sore eyes and truly appreciated.
As I mentioned to Max during one of his morning segments; To think its been a year now since we had that 'Push to Beta1' month. It's crazy how time flies and I for one can't wait to see CU become a game.
Thanks for the kind words, they are appreciated. Yeah, the Push to Beta1 was a real disappointment. We (senior leadership, not the team itself) screwed up, it's as simple as that. We won't repeat that mistake again.
Mark. Original backer here. I haven't been invested in testing so far because... well I'm older than I used to be so free time is a bit more of a premium. You may have posted it elsewhere but do you have a rough feeling for when the game will actually launch?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Mark. Original backer here. I haven't been invested in testing so far because... well I'm older than I used to be so free time is a bit more of a premium. You may have posted it elsewhere but do you have a rough feeling for when the game will actually launch?
Hey there! As always, thanks for the support, even if you aren't testing.
Yes, but we'll talk about Beta 1 launch first. A lot depends on whether we are right that our new animation system and improved VFX system can handle the player load that we need it to do. Once we know that's the case, we'll announce the date for Beta 1. These two systems are, as you know, quite important and until we're 100% (or as close as possible) that they are as performant as they need to be (we know we can always improve them), I'm not going to announce Beta 1. As per my post above, our push to Beta 1 was a mistake and I won't repeat it.
As to LIVE, a lot depends on if we can recruit more programmers. As I said in Friday's update, we've got one potential new programmer going into his last interview this week, and we have another one in the pipeline. I'd like to add 3 more total (1 in Seattle and Andrew/I would love 2 more in Va) in order to speed up Camelot Unchained's delivery. I'm pretty optimistic about our chance to build out Seattle even more.
Not time to add navals... Even Darkfall had navals ready for release.
I'll keep an eye open. But damn. These MMOs releasing are just so barebone.
It's a matter of priorities and quality. Could we have naval battles of some kind in, just like Darkfall? Maybe, but DF was 8 years in development between announcement and LIVE. I think our Backers would prefer to wait for naval battles rather than extend out the game's development since we are late enough already.
OTOH, our game's world really is the perfect canvas for a well-thought out system for water and air battles.
Air battles? Wouldn't that be interesting...
I'm not a backer, but I respect what Mark has done for the genre/industry. I loved DAoC and am looking forward to CU.
Thanks for taking the time to address peoples' concerns and questions; you're doing it right.
Can't get my pen to write in this space.
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Not time to add navals... Even Darkfall had navals ready for release.
I'll keep an eye open. But damn. These MMOs releasing are just so barebone.
It's a matter of priorities and quality. Could we have naval battles of some kind in, just like Darkfall? Maybe, but DF was 8 years in development between announcement and LIVE. I think our Backers would prefer to wait for naval battles rather than extend out the game's development since we are late enough already.
OTOH, our game's world really is the perfect canvas for a well-thought out system for water and air battles.
Air battles? Wouldn't that be interesting...
I'm not a backer, but I respect what Mark has done for the genre/industry. I loved DAoC and am looking forward to CU.
Thanks for taking the time to address peoples' concerns and questions; you're doing it right.
You're welcome and thanks for the kind words. I'm not perfect, nobody is, but I always try to do the right thing for, in alphabetical order, our Backers, investors, players, and team.
Comments
Without going into one's choice of game, I do think that large-scale (1k) battles can become more than just spamming abilities if the game/UI are well designed. It's not easy, and nobody has done it fantastically yet, but it's worth trying. If we fail, at least we tried to create something reasonably unique in focus (not in lore of course) and difficult to do. Sort of like 1999.
Okay folks, that wraps it up for me tonight.
Thanks again Bill, Guest Writer, MMORPG, and everybody who posted here.
Oh, if I missed anything and you would like a comment from me, just ask, I'll be back tomorrow.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
This game will rock!
Nanulak
They added a skip to level 30 at the start for those willing to reroll in a low pop real vs a skip to level 20 on others.
I think when the dust settled most players agreed skipping the early levels was not a good idea as it meant players lost a chance to develop long term relationships and properly learn to play their class.
I'm hoping CU has no plans to reuse this particular incentive again to resolve balance issues.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Does it always work out this way, no of course not, but on more than one occasion even in the zerg we would come across two realms fighting and help the smaller beat the larger first, before then turning on each other of course.
The choices for each realm vary in this scenario.
The smallest can choose to "trust" the new combatants and go all out against the primary.
This may depend on the primary's reaction to the new threat.
There are quite a few choices every side can and will make based on situation, logistics, hatred for one specific realm vs another etc. (several of my friends had a hatred for Hib and almost always killed them first no matter what.)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
He appeared to be looking for the next iteration of FFA PVP games which Mark had to redirect the interviewer to.
Interviewer came across as a bit hostile or challenging, which could have been a translation issue or just because he was Russian and they're coming out of a long cold winter there.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't want another comment, I just want to thank you for your time. How often does a busy CEO of a game development company pop into threads and forums on a pretty regular basis to answer questions all willy-nilly? Rarely, it's a sight for sore eyes and truly appreciated.
As I mentioned to Max during one of his morning segments; To think its been a year now since we had that 'Push to Beta1' month. It's crazy how time flies and I for one can't wait to see CU become a game.
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This is an utter and complete lie. I was a hardcore DAOC player and it was NEVER balanced in the frontiers and everyone knows it. Always one if not 2 sides dominated not only by numbers but often simply in overall balance of better classes and synergy. The mechanics are never in place for the 2 weaker factions to truly work to overcome the power faction either. The most common occurrence in daoc was "xx faction out zerging tonight lets go play alts", and months would go by where one faction would own all relics on each server.
Mark Jacobs is a cancer, money grabber, always has been always will. You are cheering him on for what is DAOC 2.0 with the entire PVE content removed to cut costs, this game is taking forever to come out because he is constantly screwing over employees with his cheap ass money grabbing tactics.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
So then i ask WHY,would you be a hardcore pvp player to a non balanced game,do you like EASY mode wins?
I was a hardcore Unreal series pvpr and if a competitor was anything but very good,i was not the least interested other than to perhaps give the player some hints or ideas to improve.Similar with pings,i enjoyed the challenge of playing from a disadvantage but if i had the ping advantage,it tuned me right off because it was just too easy.
I also never liked powerups which could be construed to be similar to better gear or better weapons or any other advantage.I only like the barest form of a challenge and that is me versus you,similar to a chess match more strategy than twitch movement.
I still remember to this day a player blew up on me because the way i played.He basically said NOBODY plays strategy anymore,that is BORING,it is all about the action.So then i responded,so you want me to play DUMB and just lay down so you can kill me,he was all muffled after than and did not know how to answer.
Point being i am talking from a HARDCORE position because this was mentioned,if you are just in a game to goof off and shoot at stuff,then really who cares what the game does,it could be Overwatch for all i care ..lmao.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Realm pride baby. Never felt that in any other game. By the way thanks for that tip a few weeks back on the DAOC server. Having an absolute blast with 6 buddies. Took and claimed Thid last night after some epic fights. Closing in on 30 now. (Playing as Mids this round).
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
While is taking longer than originally projected or hoped for, it was not wholly unexpected, at least by me for several reasons.
Key one which I feel every new software team fails to take into account is it takes a very long time to stand up a good team and hone it until it functions well at all levels.
Not at all unusual to see this take a year or longer and I'd guess this team took about 2 years to really get going at the planned target velocity. (due to the initial hiring challenges, not from a talent deficiency)
They still have some challenges with the distributed team, but at least they are on the same continent and there's no language barrier.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you had the courage to say that publicly, with your real name, you'd be surprised what you found out. But instead, you throw out stuff like this through the anonymity of the Internet, whereas I'm standing here, my real name, no alias, etc.
You can say anything you like about Dark Age, my skill as a designer, etc. but if you actually had a clue about how people at City State Entertainment and old Mythic (pre-EA) were treated, you would realize how wrong you are. OTOH, you probably just don't care.
And if you would really care to know, you can look up what happened to Mythic after both Dark Age of Camelot was a success (Matt Frior wrote an article about it for Gamastutra) or after EA bought us. Unlike some other successful developers, I shared the proceeds and didn't keep them all for myself or the original co-founders (which EA wanted me to do and not share the proceeds with the team).
And if you don't believe me, well, get a lawyer and I have my lawyer send your lawyer some documents that will prove it. This is not a threat, this is a chance for you to be educated on what I have done and really do for the teams that work with me. And, if I'm so cheap-ass, why did I open a studio in Seattle, funding a lot of the game's development myself and more?
Like I said, you can hate me, think I'm a crappy designer, that's your opinion and you're welcome to it, but saying what you said about how I treat my team is both a lie and libel.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
No offense taken at all! Actually, at 50K subs for a team this size, it keep us going. At 100K, we are profitable. Why is this such a bad business plan? We set out to make this game with reasonable goals for its scope and its user base. From there we hope to branch out and do other games/get additional funding.
The reasons were simple, we had investors and they threatened to "call the debt" (TA Associates invested in Mythic via subordinated debt and equity) if we didn't sell the company. Calling the debt would have meant that we would have had to use almost all our available cash to pay off the sub-debt that TA put into us. That would have meant Mythic was screwed big time. My partner went along with them so I was outvoted. I had three choices, go along with their wishes, see if it was a bluff or be fired. It really was as simple as that. If I was wrong on it being a bluff, and TA called the debt, Mythic would have been out of most of its cash, and I would have had to layoff a lot of people and then be forced to sell the company out of necessity. And, FYI, as I've said in other places, there was one time when I did quit Mythic. They insisted I come back, I insisted that they, TA, left us alone to work on WAR and get a better deal out of EA (with among other things, protections for the team which I later got from them).
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
Hehe, bad timing, sorry. Happy to answer them today.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
I don't want another comment, I just want to thank you for your time. How often does a busy CEO of a game development company pop into threads and forums on a pretty regular basis to answer questions all willy-nilly? Rarely, it's a sight for sore eyes and truly appreciated.
As I mentioned to Max during one of his morning segments; To think its been a year now since we had that 'Push to Beta1' month. It's crazy how time flies and I for one can't wait to see CU become a game.
Thanks for the kind words, they are appreciated. Yeah, the Push to Beta1 was a real disappointment. We (senior leadership, not the team itself) screwed up, it's as simple as that. We won't repeat that mistake again.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Hey there! As always, thanks for the support, even if you aren't testing.
As to LIVE, a lot depends on if we can recruit more programmers. As I said in Friday's update, we've got one potential new programmer going into his last interview this week, and we have another one in the pipeline. I'd like to add 3 more total (1 in Seattle and Andrew/I would love 2 more in Va) in order to speed up Camelot Unchained's delivery. I'm pretty optimistic about our chance to build out Seattle even more.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
I'm not a backer, but I respect what Mark has done for the genre/industry. I loved DAoC and am looking forward to CU.
Thanks for taking the time to address peoples' concerns and questions; you're doing it right.
Can't get my pen to write in this space.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment