Skill ups

Amathe

I am talking swimming, sense headings, dagger, sword, and so on. Your skill with axe has increased to 203. That sort of thing. 

I don't see this much nowadays. But I liked it in Everquest. The idea that it is not enough to possess a weapon. You need to skill up in using one.

Will Pantheon have this?

Nanfoodle

Yes

Albatroes

I miss skill up systems. You could really tell who cared and who didn't about the class they had up based on skill levels. Wasn't enough to have levels as well as being able to farm for your skills but needing to raise the skill levels of things you wanted to focus on using. Probably one of the things I loved and hated most about XI at the same time, because yes it was very tedious, but at the same time there was a huge sense of achievement when it was done and player respect as well. People who feel player respect isn't important in a mmorpg are what I think is one of the main problems with the directions of gaming in general.

svann

IDK, it didnt seem very important in eq because you raised the skills so easily and then they were done.  Maybe it should be like UO where you only have so many skill points.  If you wanted sword skill maxed you might have to lose points in mace skill.  Then it would matter.

Nanfoodle

svann said:

IDK, it didnt seem very important in eq because you raised the skills so easily and then they were done.  Maybe it should be like UO where you only have so many skill points.  If you wanted sword skill maxed you might have to lose points in mace skill.  Then it would matter.

 Was easy to get the skill up to a usable level but the last few points to get max skill took allot of time. 

Wizardry

Yes i like to see more of the plausible realism ideas.
I did not get a feeling it mattered at all in the EQ series,just a meaningless number i never looked at or needed to look at.
All their statistical ideas did not matter,i would see numbers like +120 STR on one item but not feel much better with an entire set loaded.This is what ALL developers do,they give you a false sense that loot is extra special,often times seeing big numbers on screen or in log but the combat feels the same.

In FFXI it was somewhat better,still not good enough imo.I know the complaints,hear them all the time "grind is too slow to level up my weapon"To that i say too bad,that is what plausible realism in a role playing game should be like,you should not be auto skilled at something you never done before.
Swimming was ok,you could sense that you could swim faster.

Senses?As in you have discovered a trap sort of old school idea?Yeah sure i could go for that.I like to see every mob have it's own set of senses,from poor sight to really good hearing to dumb as nails,or sense an injured/blood player or sense their comrade may need help etc etc.

G3Nexis

I remember jumping in lava over and over to get my Bind Wound skill maxed and it was so worth it.

Miss the good ole days

Dullahan

Wizardry said:

Yes i like to see more of the plausible realism ideas.
I did not get a feeling it mattered at all in the EQ series,just a meaningless number i never looked at or needed to look at.
All their statistical ideas did not matter,i would see numbers like +120 STR on one item but not feel much better with an entire set loaded.This is what ALL developers do,they give you a false sense that loot is extra special,often times seeing big numbers on screen or in log but the combat feels the same.

In FFXI it was somewhat better,still not good enough imo.I know the complaints,hear them all the time "grind is too slow to level up my weapon"To that i say too bad,that is what plausible realism in a role playing game should be like,you should not be auto skilled at something you never done before.
Swimming was ok,you could sense that you could swim faster.

Senses?As in you have discovered a trap sort of old school idea?Yeah sure i could go for that.I like to see every mob have it's own set of senses,from poor sight to really good hearing to dumb as nails,or sense an injured/blood player or sense their comrade may need help etc etc.

Don't know what iteration of EQ you played, but in the original and earliest expansions (Verant), you could tell whether you had +str gear and buffs on with your eyes closed. Literally, you could tell by the sound of more frequently landed attacks because the boost in Attack rating was night and day different.

Kilsin

We currently have skill ups in-game and they gradually increase as you perform successful actions, like landing hits with certain weapons etc.

Caseyx

Nanfoodle said:

svann said:

IDK, it didnt seem very important in eq because you raised the skills so easily and then they were done.  Maybe it should be like UO where you only have so many skill points.  If you wanted sword skill maxed you might have to lose points in mace skill.  Then it would matter.

 Was easy to get the skill up to a usable level but the last few points to get max skill took allot of time. 

Like the 90/10 rule, the last 10% is exponentially harder than the first 90%. I remember hitting the cap on my first skill and how rewarding it was.

I don't like the idea of only having so many points to spread out, if I put in the time to become a master of swords, I don't want to give that up to get good with maces.

kitarad

I used to climb up some place and jump down to train safe fall. Then there was sense heading which I used to spam like a loon. I too miss these things because it made you pay attention to your skills and take the time to train them up.

Nanfoodle

Caseyx said:

Nanfoodle said:

svann said:

IDK, it didnt seem very important in eq because you raised the skills so easily and then they were done.  Maybe it should be like UO where you only have so many skill points.  If you wanted sword skill maxed you might have to lose points in mace skill.  Then it would matter.

 Was easy to get the skill up to a usable level but the last few points to get max skill took allot of time. 

Like the 90/10 rule, the last 10% is exponentially harder than the first 90%. I remember hitting the cap on my first skill and how rewarding it was.

I don't like the idea of only having so many points to spread out, if I put in the time to become a master of swords, I don't want to give that up to get good with maces.

I dont think Pantheon will be going that way as weapon types work different on different mob types. Like a mace works better on a skelly, a dagger would do much lower damage. VR wants there to be reasons to swap weapons, not just for looks. 

SavageHorizon

Dullahan said:

Wizardry said:

Yes i like to see more of the plausible realism ideas.
I did not get a feeling it mattered at all in the EQ series,just a meaningless number i never looked at or needed to look at.
All their statistical ideas did not matter,i would see numbers like +120 STR on one item but not feel much better with an entire set loaded.This is what ALL developers do,they give you a false sense that loot is extra special,often times seeing big numbers on screen or in log but the combat feels the same.

In FFXI it was somewhat better,still not good enough imo.I know the complaints,hear them all the time "grind is too slow to level up my weapon"To that i say too bad,that is what plausible realism in a role playing game should be like,you should not be auto skilled at something you never done before.
Swimming was ok,you could sense that you could swim faster.

Senses?As in you have discovered a trap sort of old school idea?Yeah sure i could go for that.I like to see every mob have it's own set of senses,from poor sight to really good hearing to dumb as nails,or sense an injured/blood player or sense their comrade may need help etc etc.

Don't know what iteration of EQ you played, but in the original and earliest expansions (Verant), you could tell whether you had +str gear and buffs on with your eyes closed. Literally, you could tell by the sound of more frequently landed attacks because the boost in Attack rating was night and day different.

I don't think he really played EQ to any extent, tried it but not actually played it. 

Skill mattered, he'll I doubt he even knows what fizzle meant in EQ. 

To busy pontificating over Ffxi 

CrazKanuk

Kilsin said:

We currently have skill ups in-game and they gradually increase as you perform successful actions, like landing hits with certain weapons etc.

Are there plans for a "meaningful" implementation of this? Or could I simply skill this up by whacking a million rats? What I mean is would there be diminishing returns for skill-ups based on the inherent challenge of the task?

Dullahan

DMKano said:

Dullahan said:

Wizardry said:

Yes i like to see more of the plausible realism ideas.
I did not get a feeling it mattered at all in the EQ series,just a meaningless number i never looked at or needed to look at.
All their statistical ideas did not matter,i would see numbers like +120 STR on one item but not feel much better with an entire set loaded.This is what ALL developers do,they give you a false sense that loot is extra special,often times seeing big numbers on screen or in log but the combat feels the same.

In FFXI it was somewhat better,still not good enough imo.I know the complaints,hear them all the time "grind is too slow to level up my weapon"To that i say too bad,that is what plausible realism in a role playing game should be like,you should not be auto skilled at something you never done before.
Swimming was ok,you could sense that you could swim faster.

Senses?As in you have discovered a trap sort of old school idea?Yeah sure i could go for that.I like to see every mob have it's own set of senses,from poor sight to really good hearing to dumb as nails,or sense an injured/blood player or sense their comrade may need help etc etc.

Don't know what iteration of EQ you played, but in the original and earliest expansions (Verant), you could tell whether you had +str gear and buffs on with your eyes closed. Literally, you could tell by the sound of more frequently landed attacks because the boost in Attack rating was night and day different.

You could tell at low levels where gear and buffs had the biggest impact.

At level 50 when you hit cap with all the BiS gear prior to Kunark expansion, two level 50 warriors that had like 10 points worth of difference in skill - you couldnt tell at all.

Lots of parses have bee done to show how at 50 near cap the skill differences were miniscule.

10 points is pretty small, and he was talking about stats in general, specifically strength. Even at level 60, when you got slapped with a str buff, you could see easily see your hit rate go up, as well as your average damage.

I also think people may be misled as to the efficacy of weapon skills by project1999, where it's never worked properly. That was not the case on live.

Caseyx

Nanfoodle said:

Caseyx said:

Nanfoodle said:

svann said:

IDK, it didnt seem very important in eq because you raised the skills so easily and then they were done.  Maybe it should be like UO where you only have so many skill points.  If you wanted sword skill maxed you might have to lose points in mace skill.  Then it would matter.

 Was easy to get the skill up to a usable level but the last few points to get max skill took allot of time. 

Like the 90/10 rule, the last 10% is exponentially harder than the first 90%. I remember hitting the cap on my first skill and how rewarding it was.

I don't like the idea of only having so many points to spread out, if I put in the time to become a master of swords, I don't want to give that up to get good with maces.

I dont think Pantheon will be going that way as weapon types work different on different mob types. Like a mace works better on a skelly, a dagger would do much lower damage. VR wants there to be reasons to swap weapons, not just for looks. 

Must not have understood my point. What you are suggesting is exactly why I don't want a limited amount of points to spread around. Meaning, if I start off with a great one handed sword but get a generally better mace later, I don't wont to give up points in one handed sword to take advantage of the mace, or using your example, be handicapped because I used up my allotment of skill points on 1-handed swords and we are in an undead dungeon.

Basically, if I take the time to skill up something, I shouldn't have to "forget" the skill just to use something different. That does give me an idea though...what if you lose skill points in a given weapon if you stop using it altogether? Nothing too fast but if I don't practice or use my mace after a few weeks of game play (not RL time), the skill get's a little "rusty"...

I love the fact that there will be a more realistic approach to weapon and spell damage on mobs. Throwing a lightning bolt at a storm elemental should heal the damn thing! A flaming sword should do better against yetis and ice elementals

svann

As I remember it though, honestly it was nothing to skill up weapons skill in early eq.  Sure, when you first got a mace after using sword your whole life you missed alot.  But not for long.  You might have a longer time getting the last 2 points but those 2 points also did not make much difference.   It was mostly just a relief when you got the last point because you didnt have to worry about it anymore.  But 1 it wasnt game changing, and 2 after that it was meaningless to the game.  You literally forgot about it.  The only time it became apparent was when they upped the level cap and then "wow Im getting skill increases. cool" - for about 15 minutes, and then no more until the next level raise expac.

Strength stats were more important, but we were talking about skills skillups.

Kilsin

DMKano said:

Kilsin said:

We currently have skill ups in-game and they gradually increase as you perform successful actions, like landing hits with certain weapons etc.

Sounds a lot like EQ1

Many games, including VG used this method and it works quite well and makes a lot of sense, naturally if you do a lot of something you would imagine that you would get better at it and with this system it helps us deliver that feeling in-game.

laserit

Kilsin said:

DMKano said:

Kilsin said:

We currently have skill ups in-game and they gradually increase as you perform successful actions, like landing hits with certain weapons etc.

Sounds a lot like EQ1

Many games, including VG used this method and it works quite well and makes a lot of sense, naturally if you do a lot of something you would imagine that you would get better at it and with this system it helps us deliver that feeling in-game.

I sincerely hope you guys can keep Pantheon from becoming a Too Much About the Numbers Game.

delete5230

With this topic I can't help thinking of Darkfall Unholy Wars, where you level up with a Prowess system.


Sure the games was a pure PvP game, so this is somewhat unrelated.  But you had to level up your Prowess to be strong.  Sure skill mattered but Prowess was a large part of it.


Unless you were unemployed or disabled and played the game 24/7, it was impossible to catch up to the veterans....... With this new players unspoken quit the game as fast as they started. I remember playing soooo hard for a month only to be frustrated when I realized it took many months to be anything at all.


You have to walk a very fine line between playing a lot has it's rewards and keeping retention.


Like I say I'm not sure this is related, but something to keep in mind.

Mexenlives

I really enjoyed the EQ1 system for leveling.  It was another skill path to pay attention to.  As a SK, learning 2hs and multiple one handers plus bash.  Always something to work on. 

Also I really liked what WoW did early with having trainers for different weapons very far part.  Taking a day to travel to another town so you could seek out the trainer of a different weapon you wanted to learn.  Cool stuff!

Amathe

delete5230 said:

Unless you were unemployed or disabled and played the game 24/7, it was impossible to catch up to the veterans....... With this new players unspoken quit the game as fast as they started. I remember playing soooo hard for a month only to be frustrated when I realized it took many months to be anything at all.

While this has nothing to do with my OP, I don't want to play a game where I can catch up to veterans in a month. 

Dullahan

I'd like to see skill ups be important enough that they're celebrated when they occur. Maybe not worth telling others about, but something that makes you excited. As always that means they should have an impact and take time to achieve.

Nanfoodle

Amathe said:

delete5230 said:

Unless you were unemployed or disabled and played the game 24/7, it was impossible to catch up to the veterans....... With this new players unspoken quit the game as fast as they started. I remember playing soooo hard for a month only to be frustrated when I realized it took many months to be anything at all.

While this has nothing to do with my OP, I don't want to play a game where I can catch up to veterans in a month. 

The feeling I get from reading devs posts, this wont be the type of game you hit max level in a few days or weeks. Average Joe could take a year just leveling to max. On the way you will be playing the game, not leveling. For every level there will be dungeons and raids as early as level 30. The game does not start at max level. Also they will be giving lots of extra to go back and level new chars. So much so, you should always see lower level areas have people teaming.

Dullahan

There are actually dungeons you can at least start prior to level 10. I say start, because dungeons usually have a wide level range and will require further leveling and possibly returning to later in order to complete.

Well said though, Pantheon isn't a game where you focus on leveling up. The highlight of the game will not be max level, but the entire process. What you achieve during the process will also have a much greater impact on what you're able to do at max level. Based on what they've told us, if someone only focuses on levels, they will be ill-equipped at max level.

Kajidourden

I like the idea.  Gives you one more thing to work on for your character.  That's what so many games of today are missing.