PVP with consequences... please vote

Sid_Vicious

We have discussed in great length how to make a game where everyone can live together in a seamless world and be happy...

but....

Many people feel that there should be nowhere in the world that is 100% safe in order for the world to feel more real .. but most people want to be around guaranteed safety at least at some times. So attempts have been made to make everyone happy and have some sort of penalty for the actions of killing random people or anyone in certain areas.... this is where things can get messy.

Will a game be setup for doom if it has open world PVP with consequences because PVE players are too afraid of that type of game and PVP players are too upset at the consequences and effort put into being able to PVP?

How can we reach an agreement for an open world?

Is there really no way to bring people into a truly open world game even if most of the world is safe most of the time?

Just having the option for PVP brings in people who enjoy that.... but the problem is that most people don't play this kind of game so there are not a lot to choose from... so the true fans of this type of genre have to wait a few months at a time for a world that will be populated enough to enjoy this type of game with.... did I say months? Many of you probably feel like I should have said years, right?

What if a game challenged you with PVE the more you attempted to go AFK? Would you play it then??

Please choose the best option for you that you agree with the most for your primary game.

craftseeker

There really is no way of combining OW FFA PvP with PvE that will work for PvE players.

It is not a question of fear, that is just nonsense from the epeen section of the PvP crowd. PvE players do not want to put up with the jerks and shenanigans that OW FFA PvP always brings.

wedu321

PVE players will destroy MMOpvp games.... shame i dont play much everyday but if you die you must lose somthing items or % of exp somthing SOMTHING! BDO is one of victim of PVE cry people

Phry

PVP and PVE can exist in the same game, but there has to be consequences for just attacking people, at the same time the punishment has to be measured, i do like the Karma system in BDO, it seems appropriate, but a better system imo would be that PVP'ers have to flag up for PVP.

immodium

Phry said:

PVP and PVE can exist in the same game, but there has to be consequences for just attacking people, at the same time the punishment has to be measured, i do like the Karma system in BDO, it seems appropriate, but a better system imo would be that PVP'ers have to flag up for PVP.

The flagging system is the best system in pleasing everyone. However the only way to come out of PvP is to visit a safe zone. You can't just flag will-nilly.

The only PvP players unhappy about it are the ones looking for easy pickings.

ZoeMcCloskey

I love pve and pvp both.  But when I pve I want to pve and not be bothered by jackasses who want to gank or try to ruin others time.  I like pvp a lot but I like competitive consensual pvp.  Wander into an area and you know it is open pvp there is fine.  I have never really understood where the fun is in ganking people who can't really fight back?  I will admit I did it in DaoC but it would be in Darkness Falls and I'd only kill lower level players once and then ignore them after they respawned.  Since the whole point to me of doing that was to draw out the higher level players and get stuff all stirred up.

cheyane

At least these choices are not skewered towards PvP.

craftseeker

cheyane said:

At least these choices are not skewered towards PvP.

Actually they are, the PvE options drip PvP contempt. 'Too much sugar in my tea' really?


PS it's skewed not skewered.

Phry

immodium said:

Phry said:

PVP and PVE can exist in the same game, but there has to be consequences for just attacking people, at the same time the punishment has to be measured, i do like the Karma system in BDO, it seems appropriate, but a better system imo would be that PVP'ers have to flag up for PVP.

The flagging system is the best system in pleasing everyone. However the only way to come out of PvP is to visit a safe zone. You can't just flag will-nilly.

The only PvP players unhappy about it are the ones looking for easy pickings.

Cool downs also work, if there was a cooldown of an hour, or 2 hours even from changing status to PVP enabled, or PVE enabled, then that could work too, but safe zones, i think you still need them, not many players would be happy with getting ganked in a town after all, though it would not be unreasonable to limit town access to only players who had PVE enabled. Getting the 'mix' right so that PVE and PVP orientated players can coexist, is not a simple one tbh as any system is liable to have numerous flaws.

Reizla

Phry said:

PVP and PVE can exist in the same game, but there has to be consequences for just attacking people, at the same time the punishment has to be measured, i do like the Karma system in BDO, it seems appropriate, but a better system imo would be that PVP'ers have to flag up for PVP.

Lineage II's karma system is a good example as well and I loved it a lot. Both PvP and PvE would loose XP and PK players with a too high PK count would also have a chance of dropping stuff (all but main hand weapon I thought - not sure though).
Also, the PvP in conjunction with clans was very meaningful. If you'd kill a clanned player in PvP, your clan would gain 1 rep and the defeated player's clan -1 rep. Rep is used to buy skills, and when a clan is out of rep, skills are no longer working.

cheyane

craftseeker said:

cheyane said:

At least these choices are not skewered towards PvP.

Actually they are, the PvE options drip PvP contempt. 'Too much sugar in my tea' really?


PS it's skewed not skewered.

Ahh I missed the tea comment sorry lack of sleep and yes I meant skewed lol well it could be skewered if I meant it as joke you know shish kebabing the PvP (forget it still asleep)

Phry

Reizla said:

Phry said:

PVP and PVE can exist in the same game, but there has to be consequences for just attacking people, at the same time the punishment has to be measured, i do like the Karma system in BDO, it seems appropriate, but a better system imo would be that PVP'ers have to flag up for PVP.

Lineage II's karma system is a good example as well and I loved it a lot. Both PvP and PvE would loose XP and PK players with a too high PK count would also have a chance of dropping stuff (all but main hand weapon I thought - not sure though).
Also, the PvP in conjunction with clans was very meaningful. If you'd kill a clanned player in PvP, your clan would gain 1 rep and the defeated player's clan -1 rep. Rep is used to buy skills, and when a clan is out of rep, skills are no longer working.

In BDO the Karma system can damage your equipment, if you have negative Karma and you die, then you risk having a piece of your equipment/weapons downgrade, having your main weapon of say Kzarka III downgrade to Kzarka II would be heartbreaking, not to mention incredibly expensive to get upgraded again

barasawa

So anyone remember how they did it in the original Everquest? 
You were PvE unless you went to the temple and changed to PvP.
PvP could only harm other players that were PvP, and if I recall right, same way with healing as well. 
To change back to PvE you had to go to the temple, and pick up a quest, and so it wasn't just flip a flag or wait a bit, you had to work your way back into the divine graces. 
None of that prevented you from having friendly duels, or being able to fight anyone in the arena. Arenas were special PvP areas. You were only PvP in the arena, and just had to step out to go back to normal. 

*Now it was a LONG time ago I played EQ, so if I have any of the data wrong, or if they changed it after the first couple of years, someone would have to post it because either I forgot/mis-remembered, or never knew about the change.  

In the whole PvE VS PvP debates, there are really only two major complaints that ever really come up. 
1> PvE players complaining when PvP players gank them. 
2> PvP players complaining when they can't gank PvE players. 

Think about that for a bit  

cheyane

Yes the Priest of Discord I recall some folk rerolled when they found out how hard it was to go back to PvE . Since they could not receive heals from PvE players making normal grouping painful for them.

Sid_Vicious

cheyane said:

craftseeker said:

cheyane said:

At least these choices are not skewered towards PvP.

Actually they are, the PvE options drip PvP contempt. 'Too much sugar in my tea' really?


PS it's skewed not skewered.

Ahh I missed the tea comment sorry lack of sleep and yes I meant skewed lol well it could be skewered if I meant it as joke you know shish kebabing the PvP (forget it still asleep)

.... c'mon now I am playing with my girlfriend and have more than once..... and play with others that might put up with PVP but wouldn't choose to do it all of the time. Its not everyone's cup of tea. Sorry I couldn't word it the way you wanted it but yeah this poll is definitely not skewered toward PVP..!!! c'mon I tried my best!

I tried to make the most realistic options possible.... because I found that even though I tend to agree with the PVP most option, from experience I know that it might kill the server's population..... but maybe I need to put more effort into giving something to people who did not put up a good fight. Unfortunately, they log off a lot of time before its possible to send them a tell and say 'hey good fight, have a present for you.. thanks'

craftseeker said:

There really is no way of combining OW FFA PvP with PvE that will work for PvE players.

It is not a question of fear, that is just nonsense from the epeen section of the PvP crowd. PvE players do not want to put up with the jerks and shenanigans that OW FFA PvP always brings.

Maybe some of the real life people you are playing with want PVP. If you had a minor setback every week or month so that your PVP loving friends will play with you, wouldn't you do it? Just prepare for the worst... Why assume that because a game has PVP it means that there are going to be baddies trying to camp you out of the game at every opportunity? World too small maybe? Instances too tiny to share?

A game that is entirely devoted to open world freedom is totally different than a PVE oriented game that has some FFA PVP servers that may be ignored for the most part. There you will find someone waiting at every corner. Realistically, a game that is focused more on the PVP aspect makes the game more fair and enjoyable for PVE types from my experience.

Just because the FFA PVP server on EQ wasn't to your liking doesn't mean that a dedicated FFA PVP game will be the same thing. In fact, it might be quite the opposite! There are people happy to help you from the beginning and even if you never get into the PVP, the real PVP crowd will overlook you and battle each other instead.

If you come across a griefer in real life do you quit the game? I think it feels good to let them know (and yourself) that you will never quit and you will inevitably win in the end. There are trolls and ways to piss people off in every game and most things involving humanity, so why not join forces with others fighting on your side?

You know the funnest experience I've had in FFA PVP was being camped out of the game.... because I didn't give up and came out on top in the end. Picked off their weaker friends one at a time until they all quit. But why do people quit? Why do people feel its necessary to get all worked up in real life over a video game? Its pretty simple to enjoy yourself with risk vs reward so long as you can prepare for the worst case scenario and find a way to beat it. What better way to feel like a champion?

I'm not trying to convince you why you should play a PVP game.. you know what games I prefer by know, you've been around... but I don't camp people out of the game EVER! And against people who do that. The most fun I've had was when people tried to camp me out of the game though honestly.... I felt like a constant ninja every time I logged in... and came out on top! WOW what a rush!

There are PVPers who will totally respect that you do not want to stick out your chest, but seems to me that you might be sticking out your chest but hiding behind a wall which eggs them on..... my point being, I think the world is honestly filled with less douches than you may think. No need to stick out your chest... if you enjoy youself, despite your encounters, they only get better.... in real life or in game. There are douches in the most carebear games I am sure and also in real life.

cheyane

Sid_Vicious said:

If you come across a griefer in real life do you quit the game? I think it feels good to let them know (and yourself) that you will never quit and you will inevitably win in the end. There are trolls and ways to piss people off in every game and most things involving humanity, so why not join forces with others fighting on your side?

You know the funnest experience I've had in FFA PVP was being camped out of the game.... because I didn't give up and came out on top in the end. Picked off their weaker friends one at a time until they all quit. But why do people quit? Why do people feel its necessary to get all worked up in real life over a video game? Its pretty simple to enjoy yourself with risk vs reward so long as you can prepare for the worst case scenario and find a way to beat it. What better way to feel like a champion?

Yes I would quit the game. I am not a fighter in real life and if people constantly bother me then I leave unless it is work. Game I would never stay around to be griefed but work I will fight back because hello that is my livelihood.

You may find it fun I don't. You know people like different things so tough luck I guess because I do not want to play a  game like that.

Sid_Vicious

cheyane said:

Sid_Vicious said:

If you come across a griefer in real life do you quit the game? I think it feels good to let them know (and yourself) that you will never quit and you will inevitably win in the end. There are trolls and ways to piss people off in every game and most things involving humanity, so why not join forces with others fighting on your side?

You know the funnest experience I've had in FFA PVP was being camped out of the game.... because I didn't give up and came out on top in the end. Picked off their weaker friends one at a time until they all quit. But why do people quit? Why do people feel its necessary to get all worked up in real life over a video game? Its pretty simple to enjoy yourself with risk vs reward so long as you can prepare for the worst case scenario and find a way to beat it. What better way to feel like a champion?

Yes I would quit the game. I am not a fighter in real life and if people constantly bother me then I leave unless it is work. Game I would never stay around to be griefed but work I will fight back because hello that is my livelihood.

You may find it fun I don't. You know people like different things so tough luck I guess because I do not want to play a  game like that.

You people like different things so tough

That sounds racist. lol jk

Sorry that was not the point I wanted to make at all... I've been playing FFA PVP games for a dozen years, all different kinds, and only a couple times people camped me out of the server. Because of my good attitude people leave me alone... griefers look for victims.. and a reaction. Why give it to them? You may end up with problems in your PVE game as well.

If its MMORPG.. it means playing the game with other people. There is no guarantee that the person on the other end is not trying to grief you in some way. Its not a good thing to think about. Its only a game!

If you wanted to play a PVP game and enjoy it with me and my friends I am pretty damn sure you would!

The problem is that with freedom comes with having to plant your own flag?

You can own any game you want to. People trying to prevent you from that are way too stupid to keep up. I bet you would love PVE with me in the games that I play!! There are fun people to play with, please don't assume that only asshats play PVP oriented games.... especially with the ones who stick it through. The worst experiences that people had in games probably were from people not really playing the games.

Jabas

I liked the way Archeage did the "balance" between pve(i include the trading here) and the pvp at least during the 1 year, no idea how it is nowadays.

A huge safe zone where players could avoid pvp encounters and even a bigger zone with FFApvp.

IMHO a few more details/changes and could be perfect:
- No factions, only pk ystem in pvp zone with the usually penalty.
- Permanent guild wars, each guild define who is enemy and who is ally, so war can hapened without use of pk system. If a player is not happy with the path of the guild leave or change (like was in L2).

Lineage 2 was allready mentioned, imo the best ffapvp system i play and i was 99% of time only pve. 

But this "issue" is not easy to solve, pve shouldn be a wall to pvp and pvp shouldnt be a wall to pve, its the only way to live together in same open world, AA worked fine on this matter imo, even i think it could be much better.

immodium

Sid_Vicious said:

If its MMORPG.. it means playing the game with other people.

Yes with, not against. :awesome:

Sid_Vicious

immodium said:

Sid_Vicious said:

If its MMORPG.. it means playing the game with other people.

Yes with, not against. :awesome:

Just like chess you can play the same game with some people and against others... but opposing everyone with objective to win. Doesn't mean you have to be a douche or put up with one. I'm sure developers would agree with even the harshest PVP game.

I think the harshest PVP you can find is when there are mostly PVE servers... because the PVP part is ignored more since it is not their main focus.

immodium

I think the harshest PVP you can find is when there are mostly PVE servers...

So why the need to incorporate the two? Just roll on a PvP server. PvE player's who like the thrill of danger can roll on that server aswell.

There's no good reason to combine the two.

The 'it's more realistic' argument is weak.

Kyleran

Phry said:

Reizla said:

Phry said:

PVP and PVE can exist in the same game, but there has to be consequences for just attacking people, at the same time the punishment has to be measured, i do like the Karma system in BDO, it seems appropriate, but a better system imo would be that PVP'ers have to flag up for PVP.

Lineage II's karma system is a good example as well and I loved it a lot. Both PvP and PvE would loose XP and PK players with a too high PK count would also have a chance of dropping stuff (all but main hand weapon I thought - not sure though).
Also, the PvP in conjunction with clans was very meaningful. If you'd kill a clanned player in PvP, your clan would gain 1 rep and the defeated player's clan -1 rep. Rep is used to buy skills, and when a clan is out of rep, skills are no longer working.

In BDO the Karma system can damage your equipment, if you have negative Karma and you die, then you risk having a piece of your equipment/weapons downgrade, having your main weapon of say Kzarka III downgrade to Kzarka II would be heartbreaking, not to mention incredibly expensive to get upgraded again

See now, this sort of penalty borders on being more realistic, the penalty for "murder" should be incredibly severe, to really discourage wanton acts of mayhem.

People who want "open worlds" should agree to extreme failure penalties including permadeath....but they won't.

The reality is the higher the penalty, the more players will try to avoid it. 

Player's soon mostly only fight when they are sure can't lose, attacking those who cant fight back and quickly withdraw to avoid losses.

This is not a bad thing, difference between playing a competitive "game" with little consequence vs fighting an unbalanced "war" where the stakes are much higher and "dieing" is to be avoided as much as possible.

In a war you should never find yourself in a fair fight.

I enjoy playing EVE even though I am a sheep most of the time but the war like design appeals to me more, not sure why.

I understand why most people don't however and don't believe you'll ever find a perfect system to keep the open world safe without the "wolves" complaining bitterly it's spoiling their "fun"

Kyleran

Sid_Vicious said:

cheyane said:

craftseeker said:

If you come across a griefer in real life do you quit the game? I think it feels good to let them know (and yourself) that you will never quit and you will inevitably win in the end. There are trolls and ways to piss people off in every game and most things involving humanity, so why not join forces with others fighting on your side?

In real life I mostly try to not get noticed by "griefers" and walk away if I do because the consequences for defending myself can be bad even if I'm in the right or "win"

Face it, there are people you just don't mess with in the real world, and you never want to catch their attention or let situations escalate because you can't be everywhere nor ensure you won't experience extreme consequences for losing.

But we're talking games here so not a fair comparison right? Actually it is.  I play EVE and you must be careful in shooting your mouth off or writing checks you can't cash.

Draw the wrong persons ire and they can stalk, hunt, terrorize you endlessly and relentlessly, making your in game (and sometimes out of game) life miserable.

You may not have noticed but I never share my in game names from EVE here as I don't need unwanted attention in that world from anyone I "PVP" against in these forums.

Is it any wonder most people aren't interested in such a world? We live in one now, why put up with the same in a virtual one unless you desire more realism. (most people dont)

Elsabolts

Kyleran said:

Sid_Vicious said:

cheyane said:

craftseeker said:

If you come across a griefer in real life do you quit the game? I think it feels good to let them know (and yourself) that you will never quit and you will inevitably win in the end. There are trolls and ways to piss people off in every game and most things involving humanity, so why not join forces with others fighting on your side?

In real life I mostly try to not get noticed by "griefers" and walk away if I do because the consequences for defending myself can be bad even if I'm in the right or "win"

Face it, there are people you just don't mess with in the real world, and you never want to catch their attention or let situations escalate because you can't be everywhere nor ensure you won't experience extreme consequences for losing.

But we're talking games here so not a fair comparison right? Actually it is.  I play EVE and you must be careful in shooting your mouth off or writing checks you can't cash.

Draw the wrong persons ire and they can stalk, hunt, terrorize you endlessly and relentlessly, making your in game (and sometimes out of game) life miserable.

You may not have noticed but I never share my in game names from EVE here as I don't need unwanted attention in that world from anyone I "PVP" against in these forums.

Is it any wonder most people aren't interested in such a world? We live in one now, why put up with the same in a virtual one unless you desire more realism. (most people dont)

Telling several Goonswarm folks they were nothing more then 13yr old boys with pimples who could not get any girls was part of the reason I quit eve several years ago.

Theocritus

craftseeker said:

There really is no way of combining OW FFA PvP with PvE that will work for PvE players.

It is not a question of fear, that is just nonsense from the epeen section of the PvP crowd. PvE players do not want to put up with the jerks and shenanigans that OW FFA PvP always brings.

Really they are two different crowds with totally different mindsets.....I can only remember playing one game wehre it actually worked (and cant remember the name of it now lol), but you had to be flagged for PVP and PVP players couldnt attack PVE players...Someone was saying before that SWG was that way so that might have been the game

cameltosis

I love open world pvp (meaning pvp without population restrictions). 

However, I prefer it to be consensual, and I prefer it to be structured. If its not consensual, inevitably people have a bad experience. Even if you are a die hard pvp fan, getting killed whilst doing something completely non-pvp can be frustrating. If its not structured, then it tends to devolve into meant grinders and spawn camping pretty quickly. 

Luckily, most of the MMOs I stuck with fulfilled both criteria:

SWG - Flagging system so it was consensual. The structure was pretty loose, but with the ability to build pvp bases in player cities, a lot of my time pvping was spent attacking or defending these player-made bases. 

LotRO - You could only PvP in a single zone, so only pvpers were there. Then, you had 5 keeps to fight over so there was a purpose to your actions. 

WAR - Again, it had a flagging system for the general open world, then pvp lakes in each zone for the structured fighting. 


In all three games, I never saw any arguements between pvpers and pvers. There was no need for any penalties for being a ganker or anything like that (the biggest penalty was time - in SWG it could take up to 20 minutes to heal up, travel and get rebuffed after a death). The only arguement that occurred regularly was that over class balance - pvers blamed pvpers for class balance changes, and vice versa (in my experience, most balance changes happened as a result of pve imbalance, rather than pvp imbalance).