What I would like to see in MMOs is hybrid of tab-target (slowness and strategy) with some action elements such as aiming (at least partial) and collision detection (melee cleaves). Tab-target is too clunky for current standards, but pure twitch combat doesn't fit the genre either.
Tera is a mixture. Skills are still hot bar, tab is a thing but cone and AoE combat as well as maneuvering is WASD/ Left right Mouse based.
Tab targetting allows for slower paced, more tactical combat.
For example vanilla EQ1 back in 1999 had 6second combat rounds - by todays standards that is super slow.
But the slow pace and tab-target nature allowed for players to type in chat window while in combat. It catered to the social nature of early EQ1 a lot.
I don't really see why tab targeting should be slower then for instance target your AoE manually? It is slower then FPS combat but besides actually aiming it is pretty fast, it all depends on the pace you set up.
Guildwars used the system just like EQ but it was way faster, you can basically use the speed you want with it.
It is certainly the simplicity for the devs that is the main point, you could certainly do like AoC and use collision detection in melee for instance (AoC uses tab targets for ranged combat though) and I don't think many players would complain about it, you swing your sword and hits whoever is actually hits which for the player is easy and rather natural.
For the devs things is a different matter, collision detection takes work and processing power.
With ranged combat things are a little different. Aiming really doesn't work since it is very hard to balance right (that is a nice way to say that far too many of the MMO crowd is rather uncoordinated), if you keep the damage about the same noone would bother with ranged and if you ramp it up some people will murder everything while others wont hit a barn.
I guess you just point and click to hit but here I think it is a harder sale then in melee and most rangers probably like to move with the mouse and fire with keys. Magic and other AoE is simpler, everyone accept the circle you place out. You could probably go for smaller circles but it is more complicated.
In the long run I think AoCs idea probably will prevail. Not the silly combo and shield system though but tab targeting will probably become ranged only in the long run. Several newer games like GW2 already moved towards it and select the closest target by default if you don't have one selected. It is the most natural system no matter if you have really fast or slow combat.
I felt its more about the technology. Anything require aiming is suscepible to aim bot. Anything require quick reaction, you have latency issue. Alsoit is a turnoff for people with slow reaction.
Since when has Tab Target game never been plagued with hacks?
While no doubt that any game can be 'plagued with hacks", often these hacks are unique to that game, and not directly related to the Tab-target combat system they are using. Whereupon with the correlation with "Aim-Bots" and "Action Combat", there is a direct link to that combat style being 'hacked' this way, across all games that use it.
Also, unlike tab-target, an Aim-bot being used a "Action Combat" game defeats the whole aspect of the player doing the targeting, which for most FPS, defeats the complete interaction design of the game.
What I would like to see in MMOs is hybrid of tab-target (slowness and strategy) with some action elements such as aiming (at least partial) and collision detection (melee cleaves). Tab-target is too clunky for current standards, but pure twitch combat doesn't fit the genre either.
I really liked the directional combat of DDO, which was a hybrid of tab-&-Aim, where you could target through tab, you also needed to be facing the target, and it could dodge out of a ranged attack, simply by moving. You also could hit anything you were facing, by simply facing a direction and attacking, and it would auto-target to whatever was in your line of sight/directly in front of you.
I personally would like to see the game designed to recognize that when I hit attack, I am trying to hit what I am facing, and by facing, I do not mean I should have to lock them in my cross-hairs, I mean, simply face their direction.
The idea that if I am, or more aptly put, my Avatar in game, is facing an opponent, it should be understood that I want it to do it's best to shoot/attack what I have it facing or it's closest opponent, when I hit the attack button.. not shoot at the wall a hairsbreadth to the left.
While no doubt that any game can be 'plagued with hacks", often these hacks are unique to that game, and not directly related to the Tab-target combat system they are using. Whereupon with the correlation with "Aim-Bots" and "Action Combat", there is a direct link to that combat style being 'hacked' this way, across all games that use it.
Also, unlike tab-target, an Aim-bot being used a "Action Combat" game defeats the whole aspect of the player doing the targeting, which for most FPS, defeats the complete interaction design of the game.
Agreed, cheating gives out a large advantage in a game where you physically need to aim but in either case people would find a way to cheat so I don't think it matters one way or the other. Besides, many games using either aiming mechanics have successful blocked cheaters so selecting your mechanics just based on that would be stupid.
What MMOs need is mechanics that are fun and easy enough to learn (but hard to master, MMOs should be a bit like chess). As I said above, I don't think tab targeting in melee is the best system but the cheating argument does not help either way.
Problem with traditional tab-target is that fights tends to become static after the pull with juggling of actions to deal damage and far too many fights ends up in the same kind of way. Endless dodge with less complex button pushing changes things but can feel more busy and not more fun.
The key is to make encounters feel more unique and forcing you to take different approaches to combat instead of falling into the trap where you press the same combinations over and over regardless of what you are fighting.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
It's popular because there are no other good option (Except for Darkfall that is releasing SOOOON! Check it out on http://Darkfallriseofagon.com). It's the easiest to develope as well. Networking much easier. Darkfall has solved this extremely well though.
While no doubt that any game can be 'plagued with hacks", often these hacks are unique to that game, and not directly related to the Tab-target combat system they are using. Whereupon with the correlation with "Aim-Bots" and "Action Combat", there is a direct link to that combat style being 'hacked' this way, across all games that use it.
Also, unlike tab-target, an Aim-bot being used a "Action Combat" game defeats the whole aspect of the player doing the targeting, which for most FPS, defeats the complete interaction design of the game.
Agreed, cheating gives out a large advantage in a game where you physically need to aim but in either case people would find a way to cheat so I don't think it matters one way or the other. Besides, many games using either aiming mechanics have successful blocked cheaters so selecting your mechanics just based on that would be stupid.
What MMOs need is mechanics that are fun and easy enough to learn (but hard to master, MMOs should be a bit like chess). As I said above, I don't think tab targeting in melee is the best system but the cheating argument does not help either way.
I would not refuse to play a game based on it's combat style of system, I'll admit, hit-box style combat (GW2, DDO, Neverwinter, and a few others), is easier as I can simply "Run up to it and hit it" and since I mainly play melee, this is a big thing for me.
Now, l'll admit, people using Aim-Bots are not a huge deal to me, I know people view them as cheating, but, since I am old, button mashing makes my hands hurt after a very short while, so I ended up buying and using Razer products, I have a Naga Mouse and Tartarus, which helps me out and allows me to play more comfortably, as such, I understand the need for assist programs, so, for the people that use 'Aim-bots', it's hard to get mad at them, as I have come to realize that they had to admit they need these programs to even be able to play the game at all, as anyone that could play the game a intend, would, otherwise, what is the point of playing at all?
Getting back to combat styles however, I will however, quit games that have clunky or awkward systems, movement and combat should be smooth, no matter what system is used, case in point, WH40K Eternal Crusade has to be the most clunky and poorly devised combat/movement system I have yet to ever encounter in an MMO, which is a shame, because I really like WH40K setting. In contrast to that, Trove has a really sweet Hybrid model where melee use directional hit box and ranged use action-aim, for a simple as Trove looks, it's mechanics are spot on.
I would not refuse to play a game based on it's combat style of system, I'll admit, hit-box style combat (GW2, DDO, Neverwinter, and a few others), is easier as I can simply "Run up to it and hit it" and since I mainly play melee, this is a big thing for me.
Now, l'll admit, people using Aim-Bots are not a huge deal to me, I know people view them as cheating, but, since I am old, button mashing makes my hands hurt after a very short while, so I ended up buying and using Razer products, I have a Naga Mouse and Tartarus, which helps me out and allows me to play more comfortably, as such, I understand the need for assist programs, so, for the people that use 'Aim-bots', it's hard to get mad at them, as I have come to realize that they had to admit they need these programs to even be able to play the game at all, as anyone that could play the game a intend, would, otherwise, what is the point of playing at all?
Getting back to combat styles however, I will however, quit games that have clunky or awkward systems, movement and combat should be smooth, no matter what system is used, case in point, WH40K Eternal Crusade has to be the most clunky and poorly devised combat/movement system I have yet to ever encounter in an MMO, which is a shame, because I really like WH40K setting. In contrast to that, Trove has a really sweet Hybrid model where melee use directional hit box and ranged use action-aim, for a simple as Trove looks, it's mechanics are spot on.
Have you considered getting a trackball? It is way more comfortable then a mouse, partly because you don't move it while you play, you just move your thumb and partly because of it's design. It always helped me avoiding mouse arm and stiffness, compare moving your thumb with moving your wrist, the trackball is both faster and more comfortable for us older folks. And yes, whatever mechanics you use clunky combat is bad. Fast combat, slow combat, you need a good flow either way.
The difference between hit boxes and tab targeting is mainly that you need to be in the right direction with hit boxes while you need to target with the other and that with hit boxes you do your maneuvers depending on how you stand, not where your target is.
Depends, if you want a lot of buttons then I havn't seen any really good (I wouldn't mind a gaming one myself). I use the Logitech in the picture, it makes me so much faster when moving that I can live with 3 buttons myself (it takes 3 hours or so to get used to however but once you have it is hard to get back).
The comfort and speed is a rather important factor for me, I have a K70 keyboard to improve my attack speed (that improvement compared to another keyboard is far less the the difference between a mouse and a trackball).
Just try it, if nothing else it makes everything besides gaming far more comfortable as well from surfing to editing pictures (the precision is greater which helps in photoshop). And I would use it just for surfing the first few hours until you get used to it, I remember being murdered a few times in Lineage back in '01 when I got my first. But trust me, you will move way faster with it.
Not sure if serious as Darkfall for me had aome of the worst combat period. A melee player bunny hopping in plate and weilding a massive 2handed sword while doing 180 swings ..... ridiculous
Indeed but realism is rarely something the genre cares much about. Swimming in arctic waters while wearing plate mail is commonplace which would kill any real human in minutes or faster.
I do agree that Darkfalls character mechanics lack any kind of balance, the idea was not bad but it gets a little silly..
I agree with you 100% in genre not focusing on realism as a strong point.
Personally in terms of actual "effective PvP fighting mechanics" that for a 2h melee is basically jumping over your target and doing 180 in the air and swinging .... yeah no.
I am glad some enjoy this but it was beyond silly for me
That depends on the game, if you make a Naruto MMO it sounds right but for any none martial art games it is just silly.
I would enjoy a low fantasy or historical MMO with more realism, not 100% but 25% would be enough.
One that actually hired in a few people that knows something about using swords and axes, a few people from SCA or ARMA would work fine, and maybe even let the devs learn the basics at least of it before cranking out another identical silly combat system that makes the anime Fairy tail look like a documentary in comparison.
Particularly in a PvP game would some realism not be a bad thing, right now do all MMORPGs have rather boring PvP and maybe a little realism would make things more interesting. At least it can't get much worse compared to now when a mid level character can't even kill a high level character without armor no matter how many times you hit him/her.
I felt its more about the technology. Anything require aiming is suscepible to aim bot. Anything require quick reaction, you have latency issue. Alsoit is a turnoff for people with slow reaction.
Since when has Tab Target game never been plagued with hacks?
While no doubt that any game can be 'plagued with hacks", often these hacks are unique to that game, and not directly related to the Tab-target combat system they are using. Whereupon with the correlation with "Aim-Bots" and "Action Combat", there is a direct link to that combat style being 'hacked' this way, across all games that use it.
Also, unlike tab-target, an Aim-bot being used a "Action Combat" game defeats the whole aspect of the player doing the targeting, which for most FPS, defeats the complete interaction design of the game.
Actually the aimbot hacks are very common in manual aim gaming and ARE the direct target of cheating.
As for something like wall hacks,i find adding in radar to what seems like every game now ,either a direct attack on cheating or the devs know nothing of good pvp.I can only speak for myself but knowing exactly where everyone is via radar turns me right off,i want nothing to do with that crap.
I will remind people of a little know fact over the last 2-3 months.ARPG such as Diablo ,Blizzard found out players were cheating,so while praising these players for taking on level 90+,they were likely praising cheats and the integrity of the entire game is lost. I quit COD because cheating was so rampant and i loved COD but i am not going to support a LAZY developer that does not give a crap about the integrity of their game and only cares about money.
CS has been around for many years,we NEVER touched that game because it had the most cheats of any game and now it is in the forefront with CS GO lol,i say good riddance to supporting games with known cheats and a lazy dev behind the game. Bottom line is action or manual aiming WILL 99% encourage cheating,idk about anyone else but i play for fairness and with integrity,i won't support cheating ever.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Actually the aimbot hacks are very common in manual aim gaming and ARE the direct target of cheating.
As for something like wall hacks,i find adding in radar to what seems like every game now ,either a direct attack on cheating or the devs know nothing of good pvp.I can only speak for myself but knowing exactly where everyone is via radar turns me right off,i want nothing to do with that crap.
I will remind people of a little know fact over the last 2-3 months.ARPG such as Diablo ,Blizzard found out players were cheating,so while praising these players for taking on level 90+,they were likely praising cheats and the integrity of the entire game is lost. I quit COD because cheating was so rampant and i loved COD but i am not going to support a LAZY developer that does not give a crap about the integrity of their game and only cares about money.
CS has been around for many years,we NEVER touched that game because it had the most cheats of any game and now it is in the forefront with CS GO lol,i say good riddance to supporting games with known cheats and a lazy dev behind the game. Bottom line is action or manual aiming WILL 99% encourage cheating,idk about anyone else but i play for fairness and with integrity,i won't support cheating ever.
To be fair are all the systems rather weak for cheats and bots, CS was insanely popular and therefor had most cheats. Wow had certainly it's part of cheaters as well in the old days. We will never be rid of that completely but I don't think the actual aiming mechanics matter for how much a MMO will have of it. Popularity and how much effort the devs put into stopping it will be the factors that matter there.
Action combat is better if your game is a grindfest. Which most are, unfortunately. It's also fun to block or dodge attacks. Also makes it harder for the multi-account multi-boxers.
Old school combat (or some kind of hybrid) is better if your game is a true rpg. I don't think we really have any of those though. Maybe EVE, but no medieval games that I can think of.
+1 on the trackball suggestion, I use the same one. I think tab target went out because having to use CC went out. With directional combat you can't single out one mob. Now that we're all playing AOE spamfests action combat makes more sense. I play games to relax, so even though I'm now playing BDO I prefer the tab targeting as it gives me time to use positioning and tactics. I prefer the more strategic combat, but MMOs now seems to cater to the "Git 'er Dun" crowd and there's no time for that.
Comments
Tera is a mixture. Skills are still hot bar, tab is a thing but cone and AoE combat as well as maneuvering is WASD/ Left right Mouse based.
I don't really see why tab targeting should be slower then for instance target your AoE manually? It is slower then FPS combat but besides actually aiming it is pretty fast, it all depends on the pace you set up.
Guildwars used the system just like EQ but it was way faster, you can basically use the speed you want with it.
It is certainly the simplicity for the devs that is the main point, you could certainly do like AoC and use collision detection in melee for instance (AoC uses tab targets for ranged combat though) and I don't think many players would complain about it, you swing your sword and hits whoever is actually hits which for the player is easy and rather natural.
For the devs things is a different matter, collision detection takes work and processing power.
With ranged combat things are a little different. Aiming really doesn't work since it is very hard to balance right (that is a nice way to say that far too many of the MMO crowd is rather uncoordinated), if you keep the damage about the same noone would bother with ranged and if you ramp it up some people will murder everything while others wont hit a barn.
I guess you just point and click to hit but here I think it is a harder sale then in melee and most rangers probably like to move with the mouse and fire with keys. Magic and other AoE is simpler, everyone accept the circle you place out. You could probably go for smaller circles but it is more complicated.
In the long run I think AoCs idea probably will prevail. Not the silly combo and shield system though but tab targeting will probably become ranged only in the long run. Several newer games like GW2 already moved towards it and select the closest target by default if you don't have one selected. It is the most natural system no matter if you have really fast or slow combat.
While no doubt that any game can be 'plagued with hacks", often these hacks are unique to that game, and not directly related to the Tab-target combat system they are using. Whereupon with the correlation with "Aim-Bots" and "Action Combat", there is a direct link to that combat style being 'hacked' this way, across all games that use it.
Also, unlike tab-target, an Aim-bot being used a "Action Combat" game defeats the whole aspect of the player doing the targeting, which for most FPS, defeats the complete interaction design of the game.
I really liked the directional combat of DDO, which was a hybrid of tab-&-Aim, where you could target through tab, you also needed to be facing the target, and it could dodge out of a ranged attack, simply by moving. You also could hit anything you were facing, by simply facing a direction and attacking, and it would auto-target to whatever was in your line of sight/directly in front of you.
I personally would like to see the game designed to recognize that when I hit attack, I am trying to hit what I am facing, and by facing, I do not mean I should have to lock them in my cross-hairs, I mean, simply face their direction.
The idea that if I am, or more aptly put, my Avatar in game, is facing an opponent, it should be understood that I want it to do it's best to shoot/attack what I have it facing or it's closest opponent, when I hit the attack button.. not shoot at the wall a hairsbreadth to the left.
Agreed, cheating gives out a large advantage in a game where you physically need to aim but in either case people would find a way to cheat so I don't think it matters one way or the other. Besides, many games using either aiming mechanics have successful blocked cheaters so selecting your mechanics just based on that would be stupid.
What MMOs need is mechanics that are fun and easy enough to learn (but hard to master, MMOs should be a bit like chess). As I said above, I don't think tab targeting in melee is the best system but the cheating argument does not help either way.
The key is to make encounters feel more unique and forcing you to take different approaches to combat instead of falling into the trap where you press the same combinations over and over regardless of what you are fighting.
Hope to see more FPS-like MMORPGs in the future.
I would not refuse to play a game based on it's combat style of system, I'll admit, hit-box style combat (GW2, DDO, Neverwinter, and a few others), is easier as I can simply "Run up to it and hit it" and since I mainly play melee, this is a big thing for me.
Now, l'll admit, people using Aim-Bots are not a huge deal to me, I know people view them as cheating, but, since I am old, button mashing makes my hands hurt after a very short while, so I ended up buying and using Razer products, I have a Naga Mouse and Tartarus, which helps me out and allows me to play more comfortably, as such, I understand the need for assist programs, so, for the people that use 'Aim-bots', it's hard to get mad at them, as I have come to realize that they had to admit they need these programs to even be able to play the game at all, as anyone that could play the game a intend, would, otherwise, what is the point of playing at all?
Getting back to combat styles however, I will however, quit games that have clunky or awkward systems, movement and combat should be smooth, no matter what system is used, case in point, WH40K Eternal Crusade has to be the most clunky and poorly devised combat/movement system I have yet to ever encounter in an MMO, which is a shame, because I really like WH40K setting. In contrast to that, Trove has a really sweet Hybrid model where melee use directional hit box and ranged use action-aim, for a simple as Trove looks, it's mechanics are spot on.
Have you considered getting a trackball? It is way more comfortable then a mouse, partly because you don't move it while you play, you just move your thumb and partly because of it's design. It always helped me avoiding mouse arm and stiffness, compare moving your thumb with moving your wrist, the trackball is both faster and more comfortable for us older folks.
And yes, whatever mechanics you use clunky combat is bad. Fast combat, slow combat, you need a good flow either way.
The difference between hit boxes and tab targeting is mainly that you need to be in the right direction with hit boxes while you need to target with the other and that with hit boxes you do your maneuvers depending on how you stand, not where your target is.
I'll look into the track ball, haven't seen any good gaming ones.. do you have any suggestions?
Depends, if you want a lot of buttons then I havn't seen any really good (I wouldn't mind a gaming one myself). I use the Logitech in the picture, it makes me so much faster when moving that I can live with 3 buttons myself (it takes 3 hours or so to get used to however but once you have it is hard to get back).
The comfort and speed is a rather important factor for me, I have a K70 keyboard to improve my attack speed (that improvement compared to another keyboard is far less the the difference between a mouse and a trackball).
Just try it, if nothing else it makes everything besides gaming far more comfortable as well from surfing to editing pictures (the precision is greater which helps in photoshop). And I would use it just for surfing the first few hours until you get used to it, I remember being murdered a few times in Lineage back in '01 when I got my first. But trust me, you will move way faster with it.
Indeed but realism is rarely something the genre cares much about. Swimming in arctic waters while wearing plate mail is commonplace which would kill any real human in minutes or faster.
I do agree that Darkfalls character mechanics lack any kind of balance, the idea was not bad but it gets a little silly..
That depends on the game, if you make a Naruto MMO it sounds right but for any none martial art games it is just silly.
I would enjoy a low fantasy or historical MMO with more realism, not 100% but 25% would be enough.
One that actually hired in a few people that knows something about using swords and axes, a few people from SCA or ARMA would work fine, and maybe even let the devs learn the basics at least of it before cranking out another identical silly combat system that makes the anime Fairy tail look like a documentary in comparison.
Particularly in a PvP game would some realism not be a bad thing, right now do all MMORPGs have rather boring PvP and maybe a little realism would make things more interesting. At least it can't get much worse compared to now when a mid level character can't even kill a high level character without armor no matter how many times you hit him/her.
Actually the aimbot hacks are very common in manual aim gaming and ARE the direct target of cheating.
As for something like wall hacks,i find adding in radar to what seems like every game now ,either a direct attack on cheating or the devs know nothing of good pvp.I can only speak for myself but knowing exactly where everyone is via radar turns me right off,i want nothing to do with that crap.
I will remind people of a little know fact over the last 2-3 months.ARPG such as Diablo ,Blizzard found out players were cheating,so while praising these players for taking on level 90+,they were likely praising cheats and the integrity of the entire game is lost.
I quit COD because cheating was so rampant and i loved COD but i am not going to support a LAZY developer that does not give a crap about the integrity of their game and only cares about money.
CS has been around for many years,we NEVER touched that game because it had the most cheats of any game and now it is in the forefront with CS GO lol,i say good riddance to supporting games with known cheats and a lazy dev behind the game.
Bottom line is action or manual aiming WILL 99% encourage cheating,idk about anyone else but i play for fairness and with integrity,i won't support cheating ever.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
To be fair are all the systems rather weak for cheats and bots, CS was insanely popular and therefor had most cheats. Wow had certainly it's part of cheaters as well in the old days. We will never be rid of that completely but I don't think the actual aiming mechanics matter for how much a MMO will have of it. Popularity and how much effort the devs put into stopping it will be the factors that matter there.
Old school combat (or some kind of hybrid) is better if your game is a true rpg. I don't think we really have any of those though. Maybe EVE, but no medieval games that I can think of.