To be clear I'm referring to actual unscripted events. Not being the 5000th person to kill the lich king who respawns again for the thousands that will come after you but actually taking part in a war that sees a dominant power in the game toppled for good or becoming that dominant power yourself.
Never seen that happen outside PvP.
Outside MMORPG's, sure? I was discussing primarily MMORPG PvP, not all PvP.
MMORPGs PvP strength over other PvP games is large scale warfare and what comes with large scale warfare is unbalanced, unfair encounters.
Expect to be in situations you won't win otherwise it won't be authentic.
Just going to cut and paste this from another thread.
Putting in more work deserves payoffs but I think what payoffs is something that needs to be more carefully considered.
Things I am ok with:
1. Economically stronger players and nations being able to produce better gear more easily. 2. Diplomatically savvy nations having more allies / less enemies. 3. Groups that entrench themselves in an area and put resources and time into fortifications being exceptionally hard to push out. 4. Ending up in an unwinnable fight because you made bad tactical decisions.
Things I am not ok with:
1. Things that give you massive stat advantages you don't lose when you die. 2. Cities/territory that give your group a huge advantage that you can't lose because the game mechanics won't allow it to be sieged or taken by any means. 3. Ending up in unwinnable fights because the other player simply can't be beaten by someone your level.
I was talking about MMO PvP by the way.
Real unscripted player driven events happen every day in sandbox games like EVE, Wurm, and Darkfall.
To be clear I'm referring to actual unscripted events. Not being the 5000th person to kill the lich king who respawns again for the thousands that will come after you but actually taking part in a war that sees a dominant power in the game toppled for good or becoming that dominant power yourself.
Never seen that happen outside PvP.
Outside MMORPG's, sure? I was discussing primarily MMORPG PvP, not all PvP.
MMORPGs PvP strength over other PvP games is large scale warfare and what comes with large scale warfare is unbalanced, unfair encounters.
Expect to be in situations you won't win otherwise it won't be authentic.
Sure, you will always have unbalanced and unfair encounters in real human warfare. But sometimes a more primitive people are able to triumph over a more advanced people. There are even stories of an individual or group overcoming seemingly insurmountable odds, such as a child defeating a giant with a sling stone, or the defense of Thermopylae by the 300 Spartans against thousands upon thousands of Persians.
However, there are no instances in known human history of person losing a battle because his or her opponent had a +2000 magical sword while he or she was only wielding a +20. Or that her magical armor was just not quite as good as the other person's epic raid gear.
In real human warfare, every battle is fought at the risk of one's own life. There are no 100% certain victories.
Some soldiers may have more advanced weaponry or body armor than others, but they wouldn't be near as effective without having gone through basic training first. And battle-hardened veterans usually have an edge over green recruits. Not because their gear is better. Because they know how to use their gear better. They have also probably learned some tactics and strategy, teamwork, unit cohesion, more creative maneuvers, better preparation techniques, etc.
1. Things that give you massive stat advantages you don't lose when you die. 2. Cities/territory that give your group a huge advantage that you can't lose because the game mechanics won't allow it to be sieged or taken by any means. 3. Ending up in unwinnable fights because the other player simply can't be beaten by someone your level.
1. Doesn't actually bother me depending on how the advantage was achieved. TBH it can be that much of an advantage if you can still die.
2. That just sounds like a badly designed buff.
3. There should be some unwinnable fights due to some form of progression in an RPG IMO.
1. Things that give you massive stat advantages you don't lose when you die. 2. Cities/territory that give your group a huge advantage that you can't lose because the game mechanics won't allow it to be sieged or taken by any means. 3. Ending up in unwinnable fights because the other player simply can't be beaten by someone your level.
1. Doesn't actually bother me depending on how the advantage was achieved. TBH it can be that much of an advantage if you can still die.
2. That just sounds like a badly designed buff.
3. There should be some unwinnable fights due to some form of progression in an RPG IMO.
Okay, keep playing the games you like, and don't worry about people that think the games you like are garbage.
I'm just tired of player choice having little impact on the outcome of fights. To be honest most games have removed choice almost entirely and I miss it. When you take 3 healing abilities, one cc, and one damage ability and lose in 1v1, tough shit. You designed the character so live with it. I miss being able to design a character for a purpose. Nope can't have that, you must pick a class and be clone wearing the exact same armor set as everyone else.
That's not exclusive to class based systems. SWG had cookie cutter PvP builds and most wore the same armor sets just dyed differently.
Thanks to cosmetic tabs most characters look more unique in SWTOR than SWG.
It's PvE where player choice in character builds really shine in SWG as combat could be bypassed entirely.
Maybe that's the problem, combat being the main form of progression.
Yeah. Given you were apparently unaware of the fact the primary narratives are player driven in games like EVE I don't really think you are qualified to make statements like "MMORPG's PvP strength is..." Immodium.
That's like saying "The primary benefit to owning dogs is..." without being aware that breeds larger than terriers exist. Or "The primary foods that pair well with wine are..." without being aware of the existence of red wines.
It's pretty obvious you come from a background of Themeparks which really only graze the surface of PvP in MMOs. You need to experience games like EVE, Darkfall etc. before you can really meaningfully contribute to a discussion like this. At least if you want to try to speak from a position of authority which you seem to be trying to do.
Yeah. Given you were apparently unaware of the fact the primary narratives are player driven in games like EVE I don't really think you are qualified to make statements like "MMORPG's PvP strength is..." Immodium.
That's like saying "The primary benefit to owning dogs is..." without being aware that breeds larger than terriers exist. Or "The primary foods that pair well with wine are..." without being aware of the existence of red wines.
It's pretty obvious you come from a background of Themeparks which really only graze the surface of PvP in MMOs. You need to experience games like EVE, Darkfall etc. before you can really meaningfully contribute to a discussion like this.
I wasn't unaware, I just found them uninteresting.
And it's pretty obvious you come from a background of playing no skill based PvP what so ever.
We can say PvP is played out and dead when even a single modern MMO manages to do it properly. The first step to doing PvP properly is realizing that nobody wants to lose over and over and over to people who can two shot you because they've been playing for 5 years and you just started.
Every PvP MMO eventually turns into a few good old boys stomping everyone who comes into the game and the few total masochists willing to put up with years of their abuse to rise to their status prodded along by the occasional victories they can score against unwary newcomers before they are like "**** this ****" and deinstall the game within 24 hours. Maybe a week for some of the tougher ones.
PvP games must have a low barrier to entry in terms of player stats and a simple to learn and engaging but difficult to master combat system. In having a low barrier to entry that should refocus long term development from character development to territorial control and building up crafting skills / the economic health of your guild/city/nation. So far we have yet to see a game like that.
Until we have a game like that we need another PvP MMO.
Just not another Darkfall/Mortal/EVE etc. What the MMO market truly needs all around is less clones of existing models and more fresh ideas. That goes for PvP and PvE games. I can't remember the last PvE focused MMO that wasn't a WoW clone.
I personally believe that character development is a cornerstone of a good RPG.
Have you tried "For Honor" ? That seems to be the type of game you are looking for. A war game where you can take territory and limited character development.
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Why mix any style of games? Maybe because there are people that would enjoy playing it? You keep going back to this fair and balanced argument as if I said that I only want that. I said that if I was engaged in a 1v2 and died, that I expect and accept that. I want a world and I expect combat to have variables just like a bar fight in real life would have variables. Maybe he has three friends in the room. Maybe he has no friends. What I said is that I do not like is 3 level 30s not being able to kill an afk level 60.
It is ridiculous to the point of being asinine. A world where there are gods roaming around that can crush me like an ant doesn't sound very fun to me.
Which is why it's a good thing we have lots of game types for different people. What you call gods roaming around crushing you, I call a goal and challenge that gives me the spark to start my Hero's Journey.
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Yeah. Given you were apparently unaware of the fact the primary narratives are player driven in games like EVE I don't really think you are qualified to make statements like "MMORPG's PvP strength is..." Immodium.
That's like saying "The primary benefit to owning dogs is..." without being aware that breeds larger than terriers exist. Or "The primary foods that pair well with wine are..." without being aware of the existence of red wines.
It's pretty obvious you come from a background of Themeparks which really only graze the surface of PvP in MMOs. You need to experience games like EVE, Darkfall etc. before you can really meaningfully contribute to a discussion like this.
I wasn't unaware, I just found them uninteresting.
And it's pretty obvious you come from a background of playing no skill based PvP what so ever.
I've never done skill based PvP because I enjoy games that are based on player skill and not how long I've grinded levels?
Lol. Ok. It's clear that there is no point arguing with you because everything I say is going to go over your head.
We can say PvP is played out and dead when even a single modern MMO manages to do it properly. The first step to doing PvP properly is realizing that nobody wants to lose over and over and over to people who can two shot you because they've been playing for 5 years and you just started.
Every PvP MMO eventually turns into a few good old boys stomping everyone who comes into the game and the few total masochists willing to put up with years of their abuse to rise to their status prodded along by the occasional victories they can score against unwary newcomers before they are like "**** this ****" and deinstall the game within 24 hours. Maybe a week for some of the tougher ones.
PvP games must have a low barrier to entry in terms of player stats and a simple to learn and engaging but difficult to master combat system. In having a low barrier to entry that should refocus long term development from character development to territorial control and building up crafting skills / the economic health of your guild/city/nation. So far we have yet to see a game like that.
Until we have a game like that we need another PvP MMO.
Just not another Darkfall/Mortal/EVE etc. What the MMO market truly needs all around is less clones of existing models and more fresh ideas. That goes for PvP and PvE games. I can't remember the last PvE focused MMO that wasn't a WoW clone.
I personally believe that character development is a cornerstone of a good RPG.
Have you tried "For Honor" ? That seems to be the type of game you are looking for. A war game where you can take territory and limited character development.
Not open world. Faction based. No economy. No diplomacy. No room for meaningful interaction or player driven narratives. It's nothing like what I want.
I want an Open World PvP Sandbox MMO with horizontal progression.
Right. You're saying it's obvious I don't have a background in games that require player skill because I like to play games based on... player skill.
That's what we've been arguing about. You are saying you like games where victories are just handed to people who have played longer regardless of player skill. Put whatever spin on it you want that's what games with massive power disparities based upon level do.
I am saying I prefer games where player skill is vastly more important than who has been playing longer.
And based upon this argument you're saying it's obvious I come from a background of playing games that require no player skill...
Ok bud. I've played games of almost every genre and perform anywhere to above average to ridiculously good in any game I've invested much time in with a competitive aspect based on player skill. The only games I find myself being beaten the majority of the time is in games where the majority of the players have a STAT advantage over me. And even there I often find myself beating quite a few people who are overly reliant on their stats if the gap isn't very large.
Right. You're saying it's obvious I don't have a background in games that require player skill because I like to play games based on... player skill.
That's what we've been arguing about. You are saying you like games where victories are just handed to people who have played longer regardless of player skill. Put whatever spin on it you want that's what games with massive power disparities based upon level do.
I am saying I prefer games where player skill is vastly more important than who has been playing longer.
And based upon this argument you're saying it's obvious I come from a background of playing games that require no player skill...
Ok bud. I've played games of almost every genre and perform anywhere to above average to ridiculously good in any game I've invested much time in with a competitive aspect based on player skill. The only games I find myself being beaten the majority of the time is in games where the majority of the players have a STAT advantage over me. And even there I often find myself beating quite a few people who are overly reliant on their stats if the gap isn't very large.
Why would you insist on me ONLY liking PvP where time progression matters?
Like you I've had my fill of player skilled PvP, it's all I ever did in the late 90's/00's.
You claiming others obviously don't know what they're talking about just because they like OTHER/more realistic forms of real war PvP annoyed me.
Don't worry, I do feel embarrassed in stooping to your level of debating. I apologise for that.
Not open world. Faction based. No economy. No diplomacy. No room for meaningful interaction or player driven narratives. It's nothing like what I want.
I want an Open World PvP Sandbox MMO with horizontal progression.
What about other forms of progression?
I believe in a prior post you said you wanted crafting (or maybe that was someone else..). If a game was open world PvP sandbox with horizontal character progression but you joined and other people still had better armor or weapons they could kill you quickly. Should all crafters be able to create all items of equal quality from day 1?
If their cities had a 2 year headstart and they could produce the best stuff and have the best defenses and you could not challenge them at the start. Or should cities not be able to be developed either? Even if they were static, but some locations were more desireable than others, that would give some people a tangible advantage unless all PCs were literally the same.
To me personally, if there is no "better" to strive for.. there is no point. Again, I prefer the Hero's Journey for my character.
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Real drama needs human actors. AI may never get there.
You are somewhat inaccurate on your AI discussion. Both of these articles are dated, but they are good discussion points.
Good read on the topic. Points out how (a majority in this game) players DO NOT want more realistic AI.
This article discusses why game developers shy away from cutting edge AI. Pretty obvious reasons.
DaOC is probably the best fusion of PvP/PvE (or at least it was back when I played it...a long time ago). Not sure where it is now, but it was a good starting point for PvP that "made sense" as far as being integrated into PvE.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Yeah, PvP has been around forever. Look at what a griefer's paradise UO was. Great, fun game, with mechanics that many loved. But omg the exploits and griefing.
MMOs were still niche during Meridian and UO. In fact, UO was so interesting in large part because it was so novel. Yeah, it wasn't the "first" mmo, whatever that means, but it was a major early milestone. But it can't be denied that EQ started a whole new era of triple-A MMO titles and it began without PvP. Asheron's Call was one of the next out of the gate and it had one PvP server, the rest were PvE.
So, yes, PvP has been around forever, but the return point to which I speak is the EQ-WoW wave that segregated PvP into its own world in order to give both audiences what they wanted. I don't have any problem with that. What I find disappointing is not having the choice to avoid non-consensual PvP and having the price of playing a new title as the willingness to accept non-consensual PvP. ArcheAge, Black Desert Online, both required exposure to non-consensual PvP.
No thanks. Not any more.
So all games should abandon PvP because of your personal preference?
No thanks. I like the wide variety that is out there now. There are plenty of PvE games, PvP games and mixed
The real fix is to have PvP zones like ESO has and quit trying to balance every Archetype so they, all other things being equal, have an even chance to win a PvP match. A flying ranged DPS has a HUGE advantage over a grounded melee DPS in PvP. What's wrong with that? The melee DPS knows his deficiencies and needs to learn how to get around them. But if you 'balance' them, the game will lose flavor in PvE.
So dedicated PvP zones are the way to go IMO. It will be full of the FOTM PvP builds, but so what? That does not mean you can't have fun, you just need to adapt. And dedicated PvP zones are CONSENTUAL. You choose to enter or not enter. Problem solved! Everyone that enters a PvP zone understands what they are getting into, or they will soon enough. If they don't like it, stay out of the zone.
Now, Cyrodil in ESO has some excellent rewards for going into the zone. That is the way it should be. People on the fence about PvP need a carrot to encourage them to enter. Yes, they have to deal with the dedicated PvPers, but once again, so what? If you don't like it, don't go in the zone! Or if you have a group of friends working together, you can do even better than the dedicated PvPers.
Cyrodil is partial looting, only the rewards you go to the PvP zone for are looted. But they ought to have another zone that is full loot. Just give it even better rewards! Once again, you need a carrot to get people to go in these ruthless zones.
The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!
This thread is a perfect example of the problem with PvP in MMORPGs. And that problem is that many people playing MMORPGs simply do not understand the meaning of what game play in an MMORPG entails.
Many of the posts in this thread continue to allude to claims such as all we need for a good MMORPG is to get rid of gear and levels. Little do these posters realize that a game without gears and levels is not an MMORPG by the truest definition of the genre. A PVP game without gears and levels is an FPS platform shooter game not an MMORPG.
Another claim that you hear often is that MMORPGs need PvP because PvE presents no challenge. The solution to this claim is not the need for more PvP. The solution to this claim is the development of a smarter and more challenging AI mechanic in MMORPGs. Make PvE MMORPGs with better more challenging AI, and there would be no need for this so called challenging game play many PvPers claim as their reason for the necessary existance of PvP in MMORPGs.
90% of PvP in MMORPGs consists of nothing but ganking, trolling and trash talking. That's not what I and many others would consider fun and engaging cooperative game play. On the contrary, its more often than not an annoying and game breaking mechanic that in short order drives people away from games leaving those games to die a slow but certain death.
Another misconception that PvPers have about PvEers is that they are all carebears who are weak and afraid to engage, yet nothing could be further from the truth. Its a computer game people ...
PvE players do not fear PvP, they are annoyed by it.
PvP is typically an afterthought in most MMOs and almost always voluntary via game mechanics or server structure. If you don't like MMOs with PvP....don't play them. If there is any reason to not have PvP in an MMO is because so many devs do it half-assed. Even WoW devs have no clue what they're doing with it.
90% of PvP in MMORPGs consists of nothing but ganking, trolling and trash talking.
Snip
Another misconception that PvPers have about PvEers is that they are all carebears who are weak and afraid to engage
Perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black.
Nice cheap shot. You are grasping. I realize anti-PvP posts offend your PvP bias and sensibilities but I made my point. Next time try to make yours without making it personal. Things tend to go south very quickly when one goes there.
90% of PvP in MMORPGs consists of nothing but ganking, trolling and trash talking.
Snip
Another misconception that PvPers have about PvEers is that they are all carebears who are weak and afraid to engage
Perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black.
Nice cheap shot. You are grasping. I realize anti-PvP posts offend your PvP bias and sensibilities but I made my point. Next time try to make yours without making it personal. Things tend to go south very quickly when one goes there.
Not at all. I enjoy both types of games. The key being the game is GOOD being more important than whether it has PvP or not.
As for being "personal", there is nothing at all in the 9 words of my post that should be taken personally. I always try to speak to issues rather than the person making the statement, unless it's about the actual people making the game wherin I feel their personal abilities are actually valid discussion points.
My description was perfectly accurate. You use a broad brush to paint PvP as 90% ganking trolling and trash talking. You then complain that there is a misconception about PvE players. Your statements are the flip side of that which you rail against.
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Nice cheap shot. You are grasping. I realize anti-PvP posts offend your PvP bias and sensibilities but I made my point. Next time try to make yours without making it personal. Things tend to go south very quickly when one goes there.
Not at all. I enjoy both types of games. The key being the game is GOOD being more important than whether it has PvP or not.
As for being "personal", there is nothing at all in the 9 words of my post that should be taken personally. I always try to speak to issues rather than the person making the statement, unless it's about the actual people making the game wherin I feel their personal abilities are actually valid discussion points.
My description was perfectly accurate. You use a broad brush to paint PvP as 90% ganking trolling and trash talking. You then complain that there is a misconception about PvE players. Your statements are the flip side of that which you rail against.
Is the post accurate or inaccurate? Does one agree or disagree with the content of the post? If to the affirmative, one leaves it alone. If there is a disagreement, one posts their disagreement. There was nothing in your 9 words that was relevant to my post at all. I was just a meaningless one line cheap shot. You see, the post was not about me. It was made in general. The post was accurate and true to how the majority of non-biased gamers would describe non-consensual OWPvP games, which is actually what the title of this thread implies. I don't claim to represent the PvE or PvP community.
Nice cheap shot. You are grasping. I realize anti-PvP posts offend your PvP bias and sensibilities but I made my point. Next time try to make yours without making it personal. Things tend to go south very quickly when one goes there.
Not at all. I enjoy both types of games. The key being the game is GOOD being more important than whether it has PvP or not.
As for being "personal", there is nothing at all in the 9 words of my post that should be taken personally. I always try to speak to issues rather than the person making the statement, unless it's about the actual people making the game wherin I feel their personal abilities are actually valid discussion points.
My description was perfectly accurate. You use a broad brush to paint PvP as 90% ganking trolling and trash talking. You then complain that there is a misconception about PvE players. Your statements are the flip side of that which you rail against.
Is the post accurate or inaccurate? Does one agree or disagree with the content of the post? If to the affirmative, one leaves it alone. If there is a disagreement, one posts their disagreement. There was nothing in your 9 words that was relevant to my post at all. I was just a meaningless one line cheap shot. You see, the post was not about me. It was made in general. The post was accurate and true to how the majority of non-biased gamers would describe non-consensual OWPvP games. I don't claim to represent the PvE or PvP community.
I mean, are you kidding me?
"I don't claim to represent the PvE or PvP community. "
Is preceded by:
"The post was accurate and true to how the majority of non-biased gamers would describe non-consensual OWPvP games"
It's pretty obvious that you don't like PvP and it's pretty obvious why
Enjoy yourself in whatever game you do play!
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Comments
Just going to cut and paste this from another thread.
I was talking about MMO PvP by the way.
Real unscripted player driven events happen every day in sandbox games like EVE, Wurm, and Darkfall.
Sure, you will always have unbalanced and unfair encounters in real human warfare. But sometimes a more primitive people are able to triumph over a more advanced people. There are even stories of an individual or group overcoming seemingly insurmountable odds, such as a child defeating a giant with a sling stone, or the defense of Thermopylae by the 300 Spartans against thousands upon thousands of Persians.
However, there are no instances in known human history of person losing a battle because his or her opponent had a +2000 magical sword while he or she was only wielding a +20. Or that her magical armor was just not quite as good as the other person's epic raid gear.
In real human warfare, every battle is fought at the risk of one's own life. There are no 100% certain victories.
Some soldiers may have more advanced weaponry or body armor than others, but they wouldn't be near as effective without having gone through basic training first. And battle-hardened veterans usually have an edge over green recruits. Not because their gear is better. Because they know how to use their gear better. They have also probably learned some tactics and strategy, teamwork, unit cohesion, more creative maneuvers, better preparation techniques, etc.
1. Doesn't actually bother me depending on how the advantage was achieved. TBH it can be that much of an advantage if you can still die.
2. That just sounds like a badly designed buff.
3. There should be some unwinnable fights due to some form of progression in an RPG IMO.
Okay, keep playing the games you like, and don't worry about people that think the games you like are garbage.
That's not exclusive to class based systems. SWG had cookie cutter PvP builds and most wore the same armor sets just dyed differently.
Thanks to cosmetic tabs most characters look more unique in SWTOR than SWG.
It's PvE where player choice in character builds really shine in SWG as combat could be bypassed entirely.
Maybe that's the problem, combat being the main form of progression.
That's like saying "The primary benefit to owning dogs is..." without being aware that breeds larger than terriers exist. Or "The primary foods that pair well with wine are..." without being aware of the existence of red wines.
It's pretty obvious you come from a background of Themeparks which really only graze the surface of PvP in MMOs. You need to experience games like EVE, Darkfall etc. before you can really meaningfully contribute to a discussion like this. At least if you want to try to speak from a position of authority which you seem to be trying to do.
I wasn't unaware, I just found them uninteresting.
And it's pretty obvious you come from a background of playing no skill based PvP what so ever.
I personally believe that character development is a cornerstone of a good RPG.
Have you tried "For Honor" ? That seems to be the type of game you are looking for. A war game where you can take territory and limited character development.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Which is why it's a good thing we have lots of game types for different people. What you call gods roaming around crushing you, I call a goal and challenge that gives me the spark to start my Hero's Journey.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I've never done skill based PvP because I enjoy games that are based on player skill and not how long I've grinded levels?
Lol. Ok. It's clear that there is no point arguing with you because everything I say is going to go over your head.
Not open world. Faction based. No economy. No diplomacy. No room for meaningful interaction or player driven narratives. It's nothing like what I want.
I want an Open World PvP Sandbox MMO with horizontal progression.
Stop being obtuse. You know I meant player skill.
That's what we've been arguing about. You are saying you like games where victories are just handed to people who have played longer regardless of player skill. Put whatever spin on it you want that's what games with massive power disparities based upon level do.
I am saying I prefer games where player skill is vastly more important than who has been playing longer.
And based upon this argument you're saying it's obvious I come from a background of playing games that require no player skill...
Ok bud. I've played games of almost every genre and perform anywhere to above average to ridiculously good in any game I've invested much time in with a competitive aspect based on player skill. The only games I find myself being beaten the majority of the time is in games where the majority of the players have a STAT advantage over me. And even there I often find myself beating quite a few people who are overly reliant on their stats if the gap isn't very large.
Like you I've had my fill of player skilled PvP, it's all I ever did in the late 90's/00's.
You claiming others obviously don't know what they're talking about just because they like OTHER/more realistic forms of real war PvP annoyed me.
Don't worry, I do feel embarrassed in stooping to your level of debating. I apologise for that.
What about other forms of progression?
I believe in a prior post you said you wanted crafting (or maybe that was someone else..). If a game was open world PvP sandbox with horizontal character progression but you joined and other people still had better armor or weapons they could kill you quickly. Should all crafters be able to create all items of equal quality from day 1?
If their cities had a 2 year headstart and they could produce the best stuff and have the best defenses and you could not challenge them at the start. Or should cities not be able to be developed either? Even if they were static, but some locations were more desireable than others, that would give some people a tangible advantage unless all PCs were literally the same.
To me personally, if there is no "better" to strive for.. there is no point. Again, I prefer the Hero's Journey for my character.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Good read on the topic. Points out how (a majority in this game) players DO NOT want more realistic AI.
This article discusses why game developers shy away from cutting edge AI. Pretty obvious reasons.
DaOC is probably the best fusion of PvP/PvE (or at least it was back when I played it...a long time ago). Not sure where it is now, but it was a good starting point for PvP that "made sense" as far as being integrated into PvE.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
The real fix is to have PvP zones like ESO has and quit trying to balance every Archetype so they, all other things being equal, have an even chance to win a PvP match. A flying ranged DPS has a HUGE advantage over a grounded melee DPS in PvP. What's wrong with that? The melee DPS knows his deficiencies and needs to learn how to get around them. But if you 'balance' them, the game will lose flavor in PvE.
So dedicated PvP zones are the way to go IMO. It will be full of the FOTM PvP builds, but so what? That does not mean you can't have fun, you just need to adapt. And dedicated PvP zones are CONSENTUAL. You choose to enter or not enter. Problem solved! Everyone that enters a PvP zone understands what they are getting into, or they will soon enough. If they don't like it, stay out of the zone.
Now, Cyrodil in ESO has some excellent rewards for going into the zone. That is the way it should be. People on the fence about PvP need a carrot to encourage them to enter. Yes, they have to deal with the dedicated PvPers, but once again, so what? If you don't like it, don't go in the zone! Or if you have a group of friends working together, you can do even better than the dedicated PvPers.
Cyrodil is partial looting, only the rewards you go to the PvP zone for are looted. But they ought to have another zone that is full loot. Just give it even better rewards! Once again, you need a carrot to get people to go in these ruthless zones.
The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!
Many of the posts in this thread continue to allude to claims such as all we need for a good MMORPG is to get rid of gear and levels. Little do these posters realize that a game without gears and levels is not an MMORPG by the truest definition of the genre. A PVP game without gears and levels is an FPS platform shooter game not an MMORPG.
Another claim that you hear often is that MMORPGs need PvP because PvE presents no challenge. The solution to this claim is not the need for more PvP. The solution to this claim is the development of a smarter and more challenging AI mechanic in MMORPGs. Make PvE MMORPGs with better more challenging AI, and there would be no need for this so called challenging game play many PvPers claim as their reason for the necessary existance of PvP in MMORPGs.
90% of PvP in MMORPGs consists of nothing but ganking, trolling and trash talking. That's not what I and many others would consider fun and engaging cooperative game play. On the contrary, its more often than not an annoying and game breaking mechanic that in short order drives people away from games leaving those games to die a slow but certain death.
Another misconception that PvPers have about PvEers is that they are all carebears who are weak and afraid to engage, yet nothing could be further from the truth. Its a computer game people ...
PvE players do not fear PvP, they are annoyed by it.
Perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Nice cheap shot. You are grasping. I realize anti-PvP posts offend your PvP bias and sensibilities but I made my point. Next time try to make yours without making it personal. Things tend to go south very quickly when one goes there.
Not at all. I enjoy both types of games. The key being the game is GOOD being more important than whether it has PvP or not.
As for being "personal", there is nothing at all in the 9 words of my post that should be taken personally. I always try to speak to issues rather than the person making the statement, unless it's about the actual people making the game wherin I feel their personal abilities are actually valid discussion points.
My description was perfectly accurate. You use a broad brush to paint PvP as 90% ganking trolling and trash talking. You then complain that there is a misconception about PvE players. Your statements are the flip side of that which you rail against.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Is the post accurate or inaccurate? Does one agree or disagree with the content of the post? If to the affirmative, one leaves it alone. If there is a disagreement, one posts their disagreement. There was nothing in your 9 words that was relevant to my post at all. I was just a meaningless one line cheap shot. You see, the post was not about me. It was made in general. The post was accurate and true to how the majority of non-biased gamers would describe non-consensual OWPvP games, which is actually what the title of this thread implies. I don't claim to represent the PvE or PvP community.
I mean, are you kidding me?
"I don't claim to represent the PvE or PvP community. "
Is preceded by:
"The post was accurate and true to how the majority of non-biased gamers would describe non-consensual OWPvP games"
It's pretty obvious that you don't like PvP and it's pretty obvious why
Enjoy yourself in whatever game you do play!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018