Cheating and exploits can be largely avoided or dealt with by designers and programmers who understand human nature and have a realistic view of the world and its inhabitants. Building systems with a working knowledge of lowest common denominator, criminal behavior and a realistic, experienced evaluation of how humans behave online is necessary. Neither pessimism or optimism are helpful. What can be helpful is real-life experience, spending time actually playing mmorpgs, as well as the requisite intelligence and wisdom needed to apply acquired knowledge.
Personality conflicts will always arise wherever more than one human is present. And sometimes where only one is present, but hopefully not too many schizophrenics are playing mmorpgs. If we don't want to deal with personality conflicts, we better live alone, stay at home, and lock the doors.
To me, the quote speaks abstractly. Personalities at odds underlie the breakdown of the online game; the lamentable splintering into factions, and so on. You seem confident; MUDs themselves are split on this--between the coded and the free-form. Either way, persistent worlds demand dungeon masters, immortals, etc. to regulate them. In a game like Armageddon MUD, they can spoil it all. "The best laid plans of mice and men often go awry". The quote from RPGCodex is the truest, most pithy writing on the thing, which I have seen. I copied and pasted it into a file when I saw it. It summarizes my whole time in online games.
Cheating can be as simple as spoiler sites, exploiting bugs, macros, maps, walkthroughs, sharing in-character information out-of-character, bots (ruined Lineage 2; spoiled the economy of classic WoW), gold buying and selling, account buying and selling; or as complex as manipulating immortals, perverting the rules of role-playing MUDs, eliminating outsiders, abusing clans, and so on.
Cheating and exploits can be largely avoided or dealt with by designers and programmers who understand human nature and have a realistic view of the world and its inhabitants. Building systems with a working knowledge of lowest common denominator, criminal behavior and a realistic, experienced evaluation of how humans behave online is necessary. Neither pessimism or optimism are helpful. What can be helpful is real-life experience, spending time actually playing mmorpgs, as well as the requisite intelligence and wisdom needed to apply acquired knowledge.
Personality conflicts will always arise wherever more than one human is present. And sometimes where only one is present, but hopefully not too many schizophrenics are playing mmorpgs. If we don't want to deal with personality conflicts, we better live alone, stay at home, and lock the doors.
To me, the quote speaks abstractly. Personalities at odds underlie the breakdown of the online game; the lamentable splintering into factions, and so on. You seem confident; MUDs themselves are split on this--between the coded and the free-form. Either way, persistent worlds demand dungeon masters, immortals, etc. to regulate them. In a game like Armageddon MUD, they can spoil it all. "The best laid plans of mice and men often go awry". The quote from RPGCodex is the truest, most pithy writing on the thing, which I have seen. I copied and pasted it into a file when I saw it. It summarizes my whole time in online games.
I think factions should always be present in mmorpgs. Different communities/realms. And the ability to leave them and potentially join another or strike out on your own (live as a hermit, join a group of bandits, etc.). Factions exist in real life. All over the place. We're pretty much stuck with them as long as we live on earth. Some people think world government might be the solution, but "who watches the watchers"? If a tyrant or tyrants take power, the whole world is screwed. It's kinda screwed already, but at least there's still some freedom in some places.
Dungeon/Game Masters are necessary, true. I think there should be more of them. Paid ones with legal-and-binding contracts.
Cheating can be as simple as spoiler sites, exploiting bugs, macros, maps, walkthroughs, sharing in-character information out-of-character, bots (ruined Lineage 2; spoiled the economy of classic WoW), gold buying and selling, account buying and selling; or as complex as manipulating immortals, perverting the rules of role-playing MUDs, eliminating outsiders, abusing clans, and so on.
Well, I would not allow for macros. I would also get rid of default maps in games. Accounts would be tied to a IP Address machine code. Only one account per machine code, only two characters per account. (Or maybe just one, but if you allow for the possibility of one character being imprisoned (or a limited duration), I suppose there should be two character slots.) There could be a means to change the IP address or machine code if you move or get a new computer, but there should be a process to that.
I would also get rid of all chat besides Shout, Say, and Whisper. Unless you have certain characters with telepathic abilities or spells, no tells. Everything you say can (and can only) be heard by those within earshot, even if you're using a mic. There are emotes for non-verbal communication and hand-signals. Whispering can still be overheard, it is not telepathic. I believe there are ways to block third-party voice chat and text programs. You can't stop people from using phones or cell phones, but it's a little more difficult to organize a zerg that way. And you can't should loud enough for an entire zone to hear you unless the zone is very small or you have some magical, psionic, or technological means of doing so. Some characters could learn sign language to communicate too, which other characters couldn't read if they didn't know sign language. Speaking in another tongue could also be a means of not being overheard by characters who don't understand the language.
Gold sellers and spammers can be dealt with by hiring players to report them. They could be paid in free game time (in a subscription game) if they spend 15 minutes a day (3-5 days a week) reporting the spammers.
As for spoiler sites, online maps, and walkthroughs, is there some legal method of dealing with them or not?
I would really also like to make an MMORPG that is restricted to 18+ adults. Not sure if there's a realistic way of doing that online though.
Manipulation of immortals/gamemasters might be a problem, but any good gamemaster should be trained to do a thorough investigation, get both sides of a story, and consult with other gamemasters if necessary and the issue is a serious one.
Not sure what you mean by eliminating outsiders. And by abuse of clans, do you mean verbally or by griefing/ganking?
Bots and bugs are a problem that need to be dealt with by better programmers and programming.
The only thing I can think of for anything new coming down the pipes would be Chronicles of Elyria. Basically, your characters can and will die, even of old age. Your soul is then kind of reincarnated into an heir of sorts. My memory is really bad and so I'm not sure what happens if you don't have an heir lined up, but I'm sure nothing good could come of that. It's not really permadeath per se, but it does offer a unique "story driven" experience that represents death of characters.
I know about that game. I was actually posting ideas that seem similar to the ideas being used in Elyria on this forum last year.
And if they were actually paying and paying attention to players who test their games for them, more bugs and exploits might get reported and dealt with.
Beez peers into the cave; the treasure he had sought his whole life, perhaps, lying just out of sight. Taking a deep breath, he heaved his backpack over his shoulder and, taking his trusty staff in hand, turned away and headed for the bus stop, unwilling to risk his life for such a foolish endeavor. The end.
Sounds like a cool game.
No guts no glory they say, and as it should be. I think you are playing games wrong. Why worry about virtual stuff that you WILL throw away or have taken away at some point, why not play to have fun?
Ever get sick of everyone being max level saviors of the world? Wouldn't happen with a system using a combination of mild permadeath and more dynamic content. Where you have your heroes and martyrs, famous powerful warriors, wizards or pilots.
I say mild permadeath because there can be different types, from brutal start over to cosmetic meaningless permadeath. In PnP RPGs death usually meant coming back as some percentage of your previous XP, and being able to join your old group. Not many draconian DMs made you start at level 1. I envision a game where death doesn't happen that easily, Resurrection is possible, and otherwise it's permanent, but you can make a new character with a percentage of the XP you used to have, with access to skill levels and equipment you have unlocked through playing. Where if you did sacrifice your self for some goal it would be one of the most rewarding things you could do in a game, and make for some actually interesting game stories.
Beez peers into the cave; the treasure he had sought his whole life, perhaps, lying just out of sight. Taking a deep breath, he heaved his backpack over his shoulder and, taking his trusty staff in hand, turned away and headed for the bus stop, unwilling to risk his life for such a foolish endeavor. The end.
Sounds like a cool game.
No guts no glory they say, and as it should be. I think you are playing games wrong. Why worry about virtual stuff that you WILL throw away or have taken away at some point, why not play to have fun?
Ever get sick of everyone being max level saviors of the world? Wouldn't happen with a system using a combination of mild permadeath and more dynamic content. Where you have your heroes and martyrs, famous powerful warriors, wizards or pilots.
I say mild permadeath because there can be different types, from brutal start over to cosmetic meaningless permadeath. In PnP RPGs death usually meant coming back as some percentage of your previous XP, and being able to join your old group. Not many draconian DMs made you start at level 1. I envision a game where death doesn't happen that easily, Resurrection is possible, and otherwise it's permanent, but you can make a new character with a percentage of the XP you used to have, with access to skill levels and equipment you have unlocked through playing. Where if you did sacrifice your self for some goal it would be one of the most rewarding things you could do in a game, and make for some actually interesting game stories.
That's possible too. But I want to completely get rid of level and gear progression. Maybe you can get resurrected as many times as you have Constitution points like in D&D, but I don't think getting resurrected should be easy. Not every priest in the world should be able to raise the dead. And holy shrines or w/e that could do so should not be commonplace. I actually would like it if your friends, faction/community members, or some good samaritan actually had to drag your corpse somewhere if there wasn't a very powerful priest or paladin handy. And there's a time limit. Your corpse can rot and eventually decompose.
The problem with permadeath is that -- death itself -- in games is inevitable. From lag, ganks, your overall fatigue IRL -- you will die in the game at some point.
A previous poster in this thread mentioned D2-3 and PoE. These games are examples of why permadeath means you'll certainly forcibly restart at some point -- even if you played the game perfectly.
So yeah, permadeath gives you a GIGANTIC feeling of accomplishment, but it really crushes you when you lose that character. I always feel like a family member has passed away when I die on PoE HC.
And MMORPGs normally require a lot of time and effort to raise your character from a scrub into a hero. It would be difficult to sustain an MMO where permadeath existed.
The problem with permadeath is that death itself in games is inevitable. From lag, ganks, your overall fatigue IRL -- you will die in the game at some point.
A previous poster in this thread mentioned D2-3 and PoE. These games are examples of why permadeath means you'll certainly forcibly restart at some point -- even if you played the game perfectly.
So yeah, permadeath gives you a GIGANTIC feeling of accomplishment, but it really crushes you when you lose that character. I always feel like a family member has passed away when I die on PoE HC.
Every mortal on earth dies at some point. There may be rare exceptions, but that depends on your religious and/or metaphysical beliefs and whether or not you believe certain religious texts. Knowing that we are extremely likely to physically die in our world makes life much more significant.
Look up Chronicles of Elyria then. First of it's kind as far as I can tell. There's aging, eventual permadeath, then you play as your heir, if you want to and assuming you have one etc...
I dont remember the name of it but tried a permadeath MMO a few years ago....Was in a fight, the game glitched and went linkdead, when I came back my character was dead....No more permadeath ever again.
I dont remember the name of it but tried a permadeath MMO a few years ago....Was in a fight, the game glitched and went linkdead, when I came back my character was dead....No more permadeath ever again.
This is why I'd never play a permadeath game. I don't mind losing a fight and dying, but when lag spikes, crashes or bugs can cause my character to die, well, screw that.
I dont remember the name of it but tried a permadeath MMO a few years ago....Was in a fight, the game glitched and went linkdead, when I came back my character was dead....No more permadeath ever again.
This is why I'd never play a permadeath game. I don't mind losing a fight and dying, but when lag spikes, crashes or bugs can cause my character to die, well, screw that.
I wouldn't care as long as it didn't happen too often.
I dont remember the name of it but tried a permadeath MMO a few years ago....Was in a fight, the game glitched and went linkdead, when I came back my character was dead....No more permadeath ever again.
This is why I'd never play a permadeath game. I don't mind losing a fight and dying, but when lag spikes, crashes or bugs can cause my character to die, well, screw that.
Dying from lag spikes could replicate dying because the sun glared in your eyes at exactly the wrong moment, tripping and falling, slipping in mud or blood, or any sort of occasional (but all too possible) accidents that might happen while in a dangerous, uncertain, and unpredictable fight to the death.
This is why I'd never play a permadeath game. I don't mind losing a fight and dying, but when lag spikes, crashes or bugs can cause my character to die, well, screw that.
Dying from lag spikes could replicate dying because the sun glared in your eyes at exactly the wrong moment, tripping and falling, slipping in mud or blood, or any sort of occasional (but all too possible) accidents that might happen while in a dangerous, uncertain, and unpredictable fight to the death.
Lol, no. Just no. My suspension of disbelief and my sense of rationalization both couldn't accept those excuses for server problems.
This is why I'd never play a permadeath game. I don't mind losing a fight and dying, but when lag spikes, crashes or bugs can cause my character to die, well, screw that.
Dying from lag spikes could replicate dying because the sun glared in your eyes at exactly the wrong moment, tripping and falling, slipping in mud or blood, or any sort of occasional (but all too possible) accidents that might happen while in a dangerous, uncertain, and unpredictable fight to the death.
Lol, no. Just no. My suspension of disbelief and my sense of rationalization both couldn't accept those excuses for server problems.
Oh well. You can't please everyone. I'm cool with it though. Absolutely.
For anyone who overlooks age in games, here is a story.
From 17 (2001) to 25 (2009) I played the common games Everquest, Shadowbane, Lineage II, Everquest II, World of Warcraft and Vanguard.
I now will not play RPGs without permanent death.
Why?
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
It's way too early for dinner where I live. But if I wanted, I could try to swim across the ocean to some timezone where it is dinnertime. Unfortunately, however, sharks would probably get me before I made it very far. If I didn't drown first. In either case, I would die. Unless I get resurrected at some point, my death would be permanent. Which might please some people on this forum. I'm not sure.
Comments
"You have to see it for yourself."
To me, the quote speaks abstractly. Personalities at odds underlie the breakdown of the online game; the lamentable splintering into factions, and so on. You seem confident; MUDs themselves are split on this--between the coded and the free-form. Either way, persistent worlds demand dungeon masters, immortals, etc. to regulate them. In a game like Armageddon MUD, they can spoil it all. "The best laid plans of mice and men often go awry". The quote from RPGCodex is the truest, most pithy writing on the thing, which I have seen. I copied and pasted it into a file when I saw it. It summarizes my whole time in online games.
I think factions should always be present in mmorpgs. Different communities/realms. And the ability to leave them and potentially join another or strike out on your own (live as a hermit, join a group of bandits, etc.). Factions exist in real life. All over the place. We're pretty much stuck with them as long as we live on earth. Some people think world government might be the solution, but "who watches the watchers"? If a tyrant or tyrants take power, the whole world is screwed. It's kinda screwed already, but at least there's still some freedom in some places.
Dungeon/Game Masters are necessary, true. I think there should be more of them. Paid ones with legal-and-binding contracts.
Well, I would not allow for macros. I would also get rid of default maps in games. Accounts would be tied to a IP Address machine code. Only one account per machine code, only two characters per account. (Or maybe just one, but if you allow for the possibility of one character being imprisoned (or a limited duration), I suppose there should be two character slots.) There could be a means to change the IP address or machine code if you move or get a new computer, but there should be a process to that.
I would also get rid of all chat besides Shout, Say, and Whisper. Unless you have certain characters with telepathic abilities or spells, no tells. Everything you say can (and can only) be heard by those within earshot, even if you're using a mic. There are emotes for non-verbal communication and hand-signals. Whispering can still be overheard, it is not telepathic. I believe there are ways to block third-party voice chat and text programs. You can't stop people from using phones or cell phones, but it's a little more difficult to organize a zerg that way. And you can't should loud enough for an entire zone to hear you unless the zone is very small or you have some magical, psionic, or technological means of doing so. Some characters could learn sign language to communicate too, which other characters couldn't read if they didn't know sign language. Speaking in another tongue could also be a means of not being overheard by characters who don't understand the language.
Gold sellers and spammers can be dealt with by hiring players to report them. They could be paid in free game time (in a subscription game) if they spend 15 minutes a day (3-5 days a week) reporting the spammers.
As for spoiler sites, online maps, and walkthroughs, is there some legal method of dealing with them or not?
I would really also like to make an MMORPG that is restricted to 18+ adults. Not sure if there's a realistic way of doing that online though.
Manipulation of immortals/gamemasters might be a problem, but any good gamemaster should be trained to do a thorough investigation, get both sides of a story, and consult with other gamemasters if necessary and the issue is a serious one.
Not sure what you mean by eliminating outsiders. And by abuse of clans, do you mean verbally or by griefing/ganking?
Bots and bugs are a problem that need to be dealt with by better programmers and programming.
I know about that game. I was actually posting ideas that seem similar to the ideas being used in Elyria on this forum last year.
No guts no glory they say, and as it should be. I think you are playing games wrong. Why worry about virtual stuff that you WILL throw away or have taken away at some point, why not play to have fun?
Ever get sick of everyone being max level saviors of the world? Wouldn't happen with a system using a combination of mild permadeath and more dynamic content. Where you have your heroes and martyrs, famous powerful warriors, wizards or pilots.
I say mild permadeath because there can be different types, from brutal start over to cosmetic meaningless permadeath. In PnP RPGs death usually meant coming back as some percentage of your previous XP, and being able to join your old group. Not many draconian DMs made you start at level 1. I envision a game where death doesn't happen that easily, Resurrection is possible, and otherwise it's permanent, but you can make a new character with a percentage of the XP you used to have, with access to skill levels and equipment you have unlocked through playing. Where if you did sacrifice your self for some goal it would be one of the most rewarding things you could do in a game, and make for some actually interesting game stories.
That's possible too. But I want to completely get rid of level and gear progression. Maybe you can get resurrected as many times as you have Constitution points like in D&D, but I don't think getting resurrected should be easy. Not every priest in the world should be able to raise the dead. And holy shrines or w/e that could do so should not be commonplace. I actually would like it if your friends, faction/community members, or some good samaritan actually had to drag your corpse somewhere if there wasn't a very powerful priest or paladin handy. And there's a time limit. Your corpse can rot and eventually decompose.
A previous poster in this thread mentioned D2-3 and PoE. These games are examples of why permadeath means you'll certainly forcibly restart at some point -- even if you played the game perfectly.
So yeah, permadeath gives you a GIGANTIC feeling of accomplishment, but it really crushes you when you lose that character. I always feel like a family member has passed away when I die on PoE HC.
And MMORPGs normally require a lot of time and effort to raise your character from a scrub into a hero. It would be difficult to sustain an MMO where permadeath existed.
http://twitch.tv/woetothevanquished
Every mortal on earth dies at some point. There may be rare exceptions, but that depends on your religious and/or metaphysical beliefs and whether or not you believe certain religious texts. Knowing that we are extremely likely to physically die in our world makes life much more significant.
Very boring "story". Needs a lot more actual story.
I wouldn't care as long as it didn't happen too often.
Dying from lag spikes could replicate dying because the sun glared in your eyes at exactly the wrong moment, tripping and falling, slipping in mud or blood, or any sort of occasional (but all too possible) accidents that might happen while in a dangerous, uncertain, and unpredictable fight to the death.
Lol, no. Just no. My suspension of disbelief and my sense of rationalization both couldn't accept those excuses for server problems.
Oh well. You can't please everyone. I'm cool with it though. Absolutely.
Why?
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
ok.. so what?
I'm having a burger for dinner...
Whoever said that MMORPGs need to have an endgame?