It's not hard at all to make lasting changes through solo actions in the real world. I can drop down a tree. I can plant a new tree.
In that case gamers make lasting changes all the time in MMO's when they craft items and sell them on.
But why do you assume I only want to change the world through solo play? Maybe I want to change the world through group play too.
But for the sake of argument, and since you asked, I would like a thief to be able to steal the crown of a king. I would like an assassin to be able to kill a king permanently. I would like a fighter to be able to replace the king.
That's great but I expect those activities to be as challenging and require as much preparation as it would irl.
The thief and the assassin have to be working with others.
Otherwise the crown will constantly be getting stolen. The new kings will be getting assassinated repeatedly, thus becoming meaningless.
It would take an exceptional type of gamer to pull something like that of in a player run virtual world and live. It also has to happen rarely.
A pretty simple answser. People are competitive by nature and getting killed is losing. Same as Football, Poker, Chess, WWII, Firefly gets cancelled, Star Trek is better than Star Wars.......
I cannot handle it. When I first started PvPing in Wow and I got killed repeatedly or camped at the graveyard I was close to tears. I can take multiple deaths and even losing levels and gear in Everquest while camping in Fear or Hate but I was never as upset then as when another player killed me in WoW. I cannot explain it,I just reacted that way so I try my best to avoid PvP.
I played BDO though so I am still willing to try these games as long as I am relatively safe I will play them.
Yes, bullies and stalkers suck. I can totally relate to that. Games that allow for that behavior basically don't care if players get abused by other players.
It's not hard at all to make lasting changes through solo actions in the real world. I can drop down a tree. I can plant a new tree.
In that case gamers make lasting changes all the time in MMO's when they craft items and sell them on.
But why do you assume I only want to change the world through solo play? Maybe I want to change the world through group play too.
But for the sake of argument, and since you asked, I would like a thief to be able to steal the crown of a king. I would like an assassin to be able to kill a king permanently. I would like a fighter to be able to replace the king.
That's great but I expect those activities to be as challenging and require as much preparation as it would irl.
The thief and the assassin have to be working with others.
Otherwise the crown will constantly be getting stolen. The new kings will be getting assassinated repeatedly, thus becoming meaningless.
It would take an exceptional type of gamer to pull something like that of in a player run virtual world and live. It also has to happen rarely.
Well, crafting and selling doesn't really change much. It might make a small effect on the bank account of one and the inventory or equipment of another, but it's not very meaningful. You're right though, chopping down or planting a tree isn't very meaningful either. But honestly, even though it's not recommended, physically killing someone permanently in real life isn't all that hard. Especially if you have a gun and are willing to use it.
And I agree. Those activities I described involving a king should be very challenging and may very well require teamwork of some sort. But even if they almost never happen, the possibility that they might makes the virtual world a far more interesting place to play in.
Why would I ever want my gameplay to be interrupted by some asshole with a hardon for killing other players?
I don't enjoy PvP and will not play games where others can attack me without my consent.
Lol its exactly the opposite.
Seasoned PvP players dont get a rise from killing others at all, they kill and move on without their heart rate increasing at all. Kind of like smacking a mosquito, its nothing to them.
The only players who get an adrenaline rush are noobs.
When you PvP a lot, other players become like mobs, Ive killed other players without even realizing it.
So yeah, hardon for killing others... nah, it actually becomes routine even relaxing
That makes sense. Still, I don't see what would be the point of smacking down every bug you come across. Or killing that same bug multiple times.
I dont kill the same players over and over again as I dont stay in the same place.
Killing underleveled or undergeared players is usually accidental for me, might do it for lulz like once, but when they rez i leave them alone.
Its a lot more fun when its guild vs guild - or group vs group
I hear ya. I wasn't really accusing you of doing those things personally. I was speaking in general about the average griefer/ganker.
A pretty simple answser. People are competitive by nature and getting killed is losing. Same as Football, Poker, Chess, WWII, Firefly gets cancelled, Star Trek is better than Star Wars.......
I can agree with that. But games are usually competitive by design. Winners and losers are common in most games that people play together. To me, it's probably the horrible implementation of PvP in mmorpgs that makes people hate getting killed in them. Wolf or criminal-like behavior is too often encouraged and rewarded.
Why would I ever want my gameplay to be interrupted by some asshole with a hardon for killing other players?
I don't enjoy PvP and will not play games where others can attack me without my consent.
Lol its exactly the opposite.
Seasoned PvP players dont get a rise from killing others at all, they kill and move on without their heart rate increasing at all. Kind of like smacking a mosquito, its nothing to them.
The only players who get an adrenaline rush are noobs.
When you PvP a lot, other players become like mobs, Ive killed other players without even realizing it.
So yeah, hardon for killing others... nah, it actually becomes routine even relaxing
That makes sense. Still, I don't see what would be the point of smacking down every bug you come across. Or killing that same bug multiple times.
I dont kill the same players over and over again as I dont stay in the same place.
Killing underleveled or undergeared players is usually accidental for me, might do it for lulz like once, but when they rez i leave them alone.
Its a lot more fun when its guild vs guild - or group vs group
Totally agree. Actually, the only time I ever camped someone was probably a year ago and some dude was camping me as I was leveling in WoW. So after he killed me 5 or 6 times, and continued to wait for me, I just flew out there with one of my alts and killed him and sat on him for about the same amount of time. Funny thing was that he ended up getting his CO to contact me. I chatted with his CO for a bit and the guy ended up getting booted from his guild lol. That was super-gratifying.
Somebody is campaigning extra hard. For what? I do not know.
I don't really believe that playing MMORPGs or any video games is the best possible use of my time or anyone else's. However, the fact remains that many, many people are already habitually ignoring reality and playing MMORPGs. Most of which I consider to be garbage. So, I figured I might help try to provide some ideas which, in my mind, would help create a game or games that could potentially be worth playing. Also, posting on this forum is more fun for me than playing any MMORPGs I can think of right now. But if people don't care and and don't want to use any of my ideas, fine. I'm not doing this for my health or anything. I won't live or die solely based on other people's opinions of me or my ideas. Anyway, I need to sleep. I've been awake far too long.
The problem with PvP in MMORPGs is not to be killed, its the mandatory grind to get equipment, levels and skills before the PvP becomes fun and competitive, and of course fair.
One could accidentally swap PvE with PvP and never know they misread your quote
HERE IS MY FINAL ANSWER TO THE QUESTION I POSED IN THIS THREAD:
BECAUSE NO MMORPG HAS EVER IMPLEMENTED PVP CORRECTLY.
IF YOU CAN'T DO IT RIGHT, DON'T DO IT AT ALL.
WHY ARE YOU ENCOURAGING WOLF OR CRIMINAL-LIKE BEHAVIOR WITH YOUR POORLY DESIGNED SYSTEMS?
WHY DO YOU NOT CARE IF PLAYERS GET ABUSED BY OTHER PLAYERS IN YOUR GAMES?
WHY CAN'T ANYONE MAKE AN MMORPG WITH PVP THAT IS GENERALLY OR USUALLY OR AT LEAST OFTEN FAIR AND COMPETITIVE?
Sounds to me like you should be "speaking to someone"
IF YOU CAN'T DO IT RIGHT, DON'T DO IT AT ALL.
When you make an mmo and you think you can't "do it right" you can opt not to do it at all. I'm going to bet that those people who are making mmo's think they are doing it right or at least know what goes into designing pvp systems and do their best. If you think you can do better then by all means "do better", I'm sure you would have a lucrative careeer.
WHY ARE YOU ENCOURAGING WOLF OR CRIMINAL-LIKE BEHAVIOR WITH YOUR POORLY DESIGNED SYSTEMS?
Not even sure what to say about this one but "so what", why can't an mmo have "wolves or criminals"? if it's an open pvp game? Or heck, even if it isn't. There are also some horrendous pve players out there who love messing with others, especially because there is no recourse against them. Bad people are just bad people.
WHY DO YOU NOT CARE IF PLAYERS GET ABUSED BY OTHER PLAYERS IN YOUR GAMES?
First of all, don't play games where you think you can be "abused". Secondly, developers do care and if they find a player is actually being harassed they will intervene. However I strongly suspect you are just playing the wrong games. This is not to say that there aren't horrid people out there but my experience is that these people will eventually be removed if they don't toe the line.
WHY CAN'T ANYONE MAKE AN MMORPG WITH PVP THAT IS GENERALLY OR USUALLY OR AT LEAST OFTEN FAIR AND COMPETITIVE?
Again, if you think you can do it better then do it. Otherwise I'm going to guess that it's a difficult task even if the developers think they "have it" and that it's far more complicated than players realize. Especially when they sit in an "armchair developer" spot without anything on the line other than to voice opinions.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The problem with PvP in MMORPGs is not to be killed, its the mandatory grind to get equipment, levels and skills before the PvP becomes fun and competitive, and of course fair.
One could accidentally swap PvE with PvP and never know they misread your quote
Wrong, because PvE mobs/bosses are progressive and adapted to your level and gear. Also, mobs don't act like assholes, something players will happily do if they detect another player who has not a chance to fight back.
To a certain point... AI doesn't adapt to you though, but rather you adapt. You grind, level, and gear to the point that you aren't one pieced, and then even more to the point where you can make it a fair fight, only to repeat the same process again across the border.
And yes, the ai mobs can truly be assholes to you. Just run into the area under geared, under level, and unprepared. You'll see that the AI and the PvPers you describe have something in common...
I don't mind getting killed - that's part of learning to play. There's a fine line between "open world PVP" and straight up harassment though.
I do mind getting hopelessly outclassed in open world environments (levels and gear play a key role in PvE, they are a huge detriment to PvP). I don't like playing a game constantly looking over my shoulder because I'm getting harassed when I'm trying to play.
Eve did it right, I think, where "skills" don't really determine open-world combat proficiency, your ability to buy and outfit ships (via ISK) has more to do with it, and your skill/level of determination. That being said, I don't play Eve now, and when I did, I played carebear-style and avoided low-sec.
WHY CAN'T ANYONE MAKE AN MMORPG WITH PVP THAT IS GENERALLY OR USUALLY OR AT LEAST OFTEN FAIR AND COMPETITIVE?
Due to the complexity of diversity in MMOs, I don't think it's possible, which is why I think PvP should be removed from MMOs. It certainly would eliminate a lot of whining.
Deathmatch games are what you are lookIng for if you want fair and balanced.
I'll agree that the PvP aspect of most mmorpg's is subpar at best. It usually seems to me that it's an afterthought, something added to the game to check a box under features. There's rarely a point to it and gear and level matter way more than skill.
Play DOTA 2 if you want a good PvP game.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
The problem with PvP in MMORPGs is not to be killed, its the mandatory grind to get equipment, levels and skills before the PvP becomes fun and competitive, and of course fair.
One could accidentally swap PvE with PvP and never know they misread your quote
Wrong, because PvE mobs/bosses are progressive and adapted to your level and gear. Also, mobs don't act like assholes, something players will happily do if they detect another player who has not a chance to fight back.
To a certain point... AI doesn't adapt to you though, but rather you adapt. You grind, level, and gear to the point that you aren't one pieced, and then even more to the point where you can make it a fair fight, only to repeat the same process again across the border.
And yes, the ai mobs can truly be assholes to you. Just run into the area under geared, under level, and unprepared. You'll see that the AI and the PvPers you describe have something in common...
I've seen mobs do some strange things. Made me wonder of the devs were griefers, having a good laugh at the players who tried to defeat content only to fail for the 100th time and when they looked at the stats only 6% of the player base completed that quest.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I agree that pvp is mostly done in ways that I don't care for. I think a lot of my dislike of mmorpg come from a lack of player choice. I want options. Maybe I want to be an orc living in a small village and when a random human player wanders to close, I attack him. Maybe neither of us speak the same language so we can't communicate. Just maybe that human player thinks I'm an npc. Sadly mmo do not work this way. The towers on my shoulders that are called "armor" gives me away as a player. The huge glowing neon name above my head also makes it obvious. Subtlety must be a curse word to the modern developer.
If we had these sorts of options in MMORPGs, they might actually be fun. And why do other players need to know that my character is a player-character? Why do they need to know my character's name or my class? Why can they inspect everything I'm wearing without getting uncomfortably close and possibly starting a fight by entering my personal space uninvited?
Comments
That's great but I expect those activities to be as challenging and require as much preparation as it would irl.
The thief and the assassin have to be working with others.
Otherwise the crown will constantly be getting stolen. The new kings will be getting assassinated repeatedly, thus becoming meaningless.
It would take an exceptional type of gamer to pull something like that of in a player run virtual world and live. It also has to happen rarely.
I self identify as a monkey.
Yes, bullies and stalkers suck. I can totally relate to that. Games that allow for that behavior basically don't care if players get abused by other players.
And I agree. Those activities I described involving a king should be very challenging and may very well require teamwork of some sort. But even if they almost never happen, the possibility that they might makes the virtual world a far more interesting place to play in.
I never said there weren't in PvE, but the discussion here is about player-killing.
Also using contradiction to support your argument never turns out well.
"It's OK because the PvE crowd does it too". Is that what you're implying?
~~ postlarval ~~
5 Crazy Things That Actually Happened Inside EVE Online
I hear ya. I wasn't really accusing you of doing those things personally. I was speaking in general about the average griefer/ganker.
No, I was just making a rather lazy comment. I do agree that a lot PvP players are douchebags. No argument there really.
I know EVE is supposed to be good, but I don't want to play in space. Doesn't excite me.
Totally agree. Actually, the only time I ever camped someone was probably a year ago and some dude was camping me as I was leveling in WoW. So after he killed me 5 or 6 times, and continued to wait for me, I just flew out there with one of my alts and killed him and sat on him for about the same amount of time. Funny thing was that he ended up getting his CO to contact me. I chatted with his CO for a bit and the guy ended up getting booted from his guild lol. That was super-gratifying.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
BECAUSE NO MMORPG HAS EVER IMPLEMENTED PVP CORRECTLY.
IF YOU CAN'T DO IT RIGHT, DON'T DO IT AT ALL.
WHY ARE YOU ENCOURAGING WOLF OR CRIMINAL-LIKE BEHAVIOR WITH YOUR POORLY DESIGNED SYSTEMS?
WHY DO YOU NOT CARE IF PLAYERS GET ABUSED BY OTHER PLAYERS IN YOUR GAMES?
WHY CAN'T ANYONE MAKE AN MMORPG WITH PVP THAT IS GENERALLY OR USUALLY OR AT LEAST OFTEN FAIR AND COMPETITIVE?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
One could accidentally swap PvE with PvP and never know they misread your quote
That's the part I don't like.
But hey, it comes with the territory.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Sounds to me like you should be "speaking to someone"
IF YOU CAN'T DO IT RIGHT, DON'T DO IT AT ALL.
When you make an mmo and you think you can't "do it right" you can opt not to do it at all. I'm going to bet that those people who are making mmo's think they are doing it right or at least know what goes into designing pvp systems and do their best. If you think you can do better then by all means "do better", I'm sure you would have a lucrative careeer.
WHY ARE YOU ENCOURAGING WOLF OR CRIMINAL-LIKE BEHAVIOR WITH YOUR POORLY DESIGNED SYSTEMS?
Not even sure what to say about this one but "so what", why can't an mmo have "wolves or criminals"? if it's an open pvp game? Or heck, even if it isn't. There are also some horrendous pve players out there who love messing with others, especially because there is no recourse against them. Bad people are just bad people.
WHY DO YOU NOT CARE IF PLAYERS GET ABUSED BY OTHER PLAYERS IN YOUR GAMES?
First of all, don't play games where you think you can be "abused". Secondly, developers do care and if they find a player is actually being harassed they will intervene. However I strongly suspect you are just playing the wrong games. This is not to say that there aren't horrid people out there but my experience is that these people will eventually be removed if they don't toe the line.
WHY CAN'T ANYONE MAKE AN MMORPG WITH PVP THAT IS GENERALLY OR USUALLY OR AT LEAST OFTEN FAIR AND COMPETITIVE?
Again, if you think you can do it better then do it. Otherwise I'm going to guess that it's a difficult task even if the developers think they "have it" and that it's far more complicated than players realize. Especially when they sit in an "armchair developer" spot without anything on the line other than to voice opinions.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
It only comes with the territory because we keep letting it come with the territory.
~~ postlarval ~~
To a certain point... AI doesn't adapt to you though, but rather you adapt. You grind, level, and gear to the point that you aren't one pieced, and then even more to the point where you can make it a fair fight, only to repeat the same process again across the border.
And yes, the ai mobs can truly be assholes to you. Just run into the area under geared, under level, and unprepared. You'll see that the AI and the PvPers you describe have something in common...
I do mind getting hopelessly outclassed in open world environments (levels and gear play a key role in PvE, they are a huge detriment to PvP). I don't like playing a game constantly looking over my shoulder because I'm getting harassed when I'm trying to play.
Eve did it right, I think, where "skills" don't really determine open-world combat proficiency, your ability to buy and outfit ships (via ISK) has more to do with it, and your skill/level of determination. That being said, I don't play Eve now, and when I did, I played carebear-style and avoided low-sec.
Due to the complexity of diversity in MMOs, I don't think it's possible, which is why I think PvP should be removed from MMOs. It certainly would eliminate a lot of whining.
Deathmatch games are what you are lookIng for if you want fair and balanced.
~~ postlarval ~~
Play DOTA 2 if you want a good PvP game.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
I've seen mobs do some strange things. Made me wonder of the devs were griefers, having a good laugh at the players who tried to defeat content only to fail for the 100th time and when they looked at the stats only 6% of the player base completed that quest.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
If we had these sorts of options in MMORPGs, they might actually be fun. And why do other players need to know that my character is a player-character? Why do they need to know my character's name or my class? Why can they inspect everything I'm wearing without getting uncomfortably close and possibly starting a fight by entering my personal space uninvited?