Some Potential Building Blocks for Creating a Realistic, Dynamic, True Role-Playing Game Online

cantankerousmage

Permanent Death can't work well in a game based on level, gear, and or stat progression.  There are other types of progression though.  Which actually reflect how humans progress in real life.

Of course, you can make technically anything "work" if you can code it, but I'm saying that most people won't want to invest the time, energy, and resources in order to play it.

I don't mean skill-based.  Though you should be able to train skills by use and repetition.  But you can't master anything.  You can't master many things unless your character is some sort of genius or prodigy (very high intelligence though fairly high wisdom or high scores in other attributes would be needed for to master some skills or abilities).

I mean progression through the advancement of your community/realm and the perpetuation of your family line.

Wealth, property (land), possessions, knowledge, and titles can be passed down through the family line.  If your character manages to keep and store any somewhere relatively safe before they die.  Titles earned would always stay within  the family unless a liege-lord decided to strip them or your community/realm is conquered or destroyed.*

If your character produced an heir or heirs with another player-character or npc spouse, then you can play as one as one of the children after your character dies.

If you have no children, you have say a 50/50 chance of being able to play as a sibling of your original character, but you only get half of what you would if you played as one of your children.

Or you can just delete the family line and start over as the member of another family in the same community/realm.

Meanwhile, the same thing is happening within your community/realm and in many other player-run communities/realms and AI communities/realms.

*If your community/realm is conquered or destroyed (and you survive/are able to escape), you can try to flee to another community/realm.  Or you can band together with other survivors and try to survive in the wild somehow.  Or try to survive on your own.

Open World PvP, PvE Realm vs Realm (Community vs Community).  However, neither PvP nor PvE (as in killing and looting AI mobs) are necessary for your character, your character's family, or the community to which your character belongs in order to progress.  There are areas and paths of progression in the game where you could spend all your time and basically have zero need to ever fight anyone or anything.  Also areas where you would have to fight almost endlessly to survive.  And areas with different levels of relative safety and danger, depending on the particular area's general alignment (see old D&D rulebooks if you don't know what alignment is) and political structure.  Amount of law or chaos in any given region.   You can choose to play it totally safe or you can go completely nuts and risk everything constantly.

Realm:  As small as a village or nomadic tribe encampment up to and including a kingdom or empire

More to come - I'm probably gonna run out of space.

But I don't think I'm allowed to bump my own thread, so someone please comment, so I can continue posting.

Noxeron

For any of this you would need a lot of players.

And from what I have seen, most people don't like to live an "(fantasy)normal" life in a game.
They either want to kill people (pvp), progress (pve), or sometimes something inbetween.

You want a pvp game where you don't need to progress with skills/gear/level, but also have pve which I then would have to guess wouldn't actually give anything?

It still feels quite like a large scale deathmatch.

But games that I can think of that "try" to do something like this would be Mortal Online and Darkfall, both which doesn't have very big playerbases, because (I'm guessing again) not many people like this playstyle.

But you don't mention full-loot, so there wouldn't even be any incentive to do pvp...
What would be the "goal" of this game?

cantankerousmage

Think RTS meets MMORPG.  Age of Empires meets Final World of Whatever Fantasy.

Full-loot.  Yes.  AI mobs can loot you too.

Character Creation – 2 character slots, one account per machine code
Roll for ability scores once only
Option to choose ability scores, but the number of points in the pool will be less than if one chooses to roll

Choose Race (some races have ability score requirements, penalties, and/or bonuses)

Choose Gender

No Initial Classes – Classes are determined by character choices in-game.  But the class is only ever truly known by the player or those they choose to share the information with.

Choose Community/Realm (both characters on the account must belong to the same community/realm initially)

Choose Social Status – Criminal, Peasant, Commoner, Clergy, or Nobility.  If there is already a certain number of nobles in the community/realm (differs from realm to realm), then Nobility will be locked.  However, it is possible to for anyone to rise to the position of nobility in game.  (Or all nobles are npcs at first?)
There are ability score requirements and demands for each.  Perhaps you will be notified which social classes your chosen community is lacking.  If a community doesn't have enough peasants, it might starve.

Born into an NPC family with an NPC father and mother (Though there is a random chance for one of the parents to be deceased already.  If one of the parents is deceased, they may have left some sort of heirloom or inheritance behind).  Criminals may or may not be orphans and grow up on the street.

Introduction/Tutorial – Grow up in community and choose which skills and abilities to train starting points in.  Opportunities to learn how the skills and abilities function in the game.  9 year-olds learn farming, become an apprentice to a master in a trade, apprentice to a merchant, or become a page usually, depending on which sort of family they're born into.  12 year-olds gain more skill in farming and learn other things such as fishing, hunting, and/or woodcutting, become journeymen craftsmen or merchants, or squires.  Criminals learn things like picking pockets and picking locks.  Start as urchins, then proceed to become thieves, dancers/entertainers, acrobats/jugglers, thugs, or killers (assassins).  Clergy train in a church, nunnery, or monastery, temple, shrine (or with a shaman/witch doctor/coven/cult, etc.) as novices, then acolytes.

One of any social status may choose to specialize in singing and playing musical instruments (though this is more difficult for a peasant).

Enter world (inside family home) anywhere from 15-20 years old, depending on which skills and abilities have been trained.  Spend initial time running some doing tasks/ running errands for parents, exploring community, meeting npcs and pcs in the community.  Guilds are for professions only (must demonstrate skill in crafting to become a master or continue on as a journeyman if skill is not yet sufficient).  Though in larger cities there may be a Thieves or Assassins Guild.  Military-minded characters can try to join the local garrison (for which they must sometimes undergo a trial).  If they are a member of the nobility, they can try to become knighted. (Though it is possible for anyone to become a knight eventually.  A knight would be one of the lowest ranks of nobility.  There would be corresponding ranks of nobility depending upon which sort of culture one chooses to play in.)  The religious order one belongs to may decide one is worthy to be frocked as a priest, nun, or monk/friar/abbot (or whatever title their particular order has for full-fledged officiators of their particular religion).

Characters are now free to continue to explore their community and train skills in different ways.  Exploration outside the community is possible, but it is not recommended that people venture out alone.  Especially not far from their community.  A player-character may choose to completely abandon their original community and strike out on their own or try to join another community.  However, the other character on their account (or the other one yet to be made) will automatically be placed under suspicion.  An event will occur the first time they log-in with the character or after the creation and tutorial which will cause them not to be trusted (thereafter a possible spy-type icon will be placed over their heads, and they may be run out of town or arrested, placed on trial, then exiled).

Wizards, alchemists, and magic of all types are rare.  Only the most intelligent and dedicated player-characters can become magic-users.  A master may choose to apprentice someone else, but this can only be done after a character has entered the game world, they are able to locate such a master, and the master is willing.  Magic items, weapons, and equipment are rare and very difficult to make.  Any magic items found are just as likely to be cursed or dangerous as they are to be helpful or beneficial.

Becoming a bard/troubadour, or minstrel is possible for all.

Paladins and Doom/Death/Shadow Knights are very rare.  It is both very difficult and dangerous to become either, and the blessings of a deity or deity/devil/demon may be stripped from a paladin or unholy knight at any time if they do not follow the path required of them or swerve from their duty to their chosen supernatural lord and benefactor.

Why would anyone want to be a peasant?  They can eventually rise in their social status and can become the most powerful of certain kinds of classes if they're played well.

There are limits both to the quantity and quality of resources in the world.  The same goes for the quantity and quality of items, weapons, armor, and all types of equipment.  There is weight and encumbrance, hunger, thirst, and fatigue.  There are morale checks for mobs during battles.  They might choose to flee rather than fighting to the death.  You can bargain with or bribe AI mobs.  You can trick them or distract them with clever ploys.

Merchants can set up stalls or shops and organize caravans (guarded or unguarded) to other locations.  There is no universal Auction House.  Goods don't move from town to town on their own.

NPC and PC Hirelings and Mercenaries should be available, of course.

EDIT:  I forgot about archers and rangers.  Only peasants or nobility can become rangers.  Engineers, architects, builders, and sappers would mostly be created from commoners, but peasants might have some chance of becoming a builder or a sapper.  In rare cases a noble might try his or her hand at engineering or architecture.

Noxeron

Sounds extremely restrictive, again most people would probably not like it.

And it would seem an unfair advantage if one player got a perfect "roll" while another got a shitty one in pvp, when gear can't(?) even it out.

It would be an extremely ambitious project, which I don't think would pay off.

cantankerousmage

Noxeron said:

Sounds extremely restrictive, again most people would probably not like it.

And it would seem an unfair advantage if one player got a perfect "roll" while another got a shitty one in pvp, when gear can't(?) even it out.

It would be an extremely ambitious project, which I don't think would pay off.

Well, I'm not sure you can speak for what most people would probably not like.  I know I can't.  I'm not most people, I'm just me.

The restrictions are similar to those placed on original D&D or earlier editions of it and/or alternate rule sets.  Not all of the restrictions absolutely need to be in place.  That's just the way I would prefer to have it played.  And, of course, it's still a work in progress.  I can't say it's perfect, or that anything in this world can or will be perfect.  Unless there's some kind of supernatural intervention to make it possible.  But things can become as complete as we can or want to make them. 

Gear can even things out somewhat.  It's just that there aren't infinite levels of gear.  Probably (+1 to +5 for magical or holy equipment).  Different qualities and kinds of gear would make a difference as well.  Like bronze or iron as opposed to steel.  A simple breastplate as opposed to full plate armor.  A gladius (Roman short sword) as opposed to a katana or a two-handed sword claymore.  A spear as opposed to a pole-arm or a lance.

Also, children could possibly inherit some bonuses to attribute scores from their parents.

NPCs could occupy any and all positions in any given community until enough players inhabit said community to start replacing them.

A 20 in any attribute vs a 15 is a lot less unfair than a higher level character with higher level gear vs a lower level character with lower level gear in a game like WoW.

If there's no possibility for unfair encounters or situations, it wouldn't be realistic.  People are not actually all created equal in every respect.  We aren't carbon copies of each other.  We aren't robots produced from an assembly line.  Some people are born as geniuses, some people are born retarded.  Some people are born with DNA and genes programmed to make them tall, strong, and healthy, some people are born crippled, with sever defects, or with congenital diseases.  I won't apologize for not being politically correct.  I speak English.  Which a great many of my ancestors did as well.

EDIT:  Player characters and NPCs can issue quests or missions to players, but there is no general, closed-narrative, over-arching and universal questline.  Quests/missions/tasks would be offered based on the wants and needs of a community and the individuals within the community.

Noxeron

The programming that would have to go into all these features would be insane.

I base my assumptions of "what most people would do" on how things have gone down in the past.

A 20 to a 15 would always win if you don't add some kind of randomization to it, like a d20.

GAMES ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE REALISTIC if that's not what they are specifically going for.
What fun is it to make a new character, get the perfect roll, and then you get cancer and die.
If we don't have close to a 100% chance to be exactly as good as the best PC, then it's unfair and again, I assume most people wouldn't want to play that.

Where is the fun in coming home from work in real life to go to work in a game?

cantankerousmage

Noxeron said:

The programming that would have to go into all these features would be insane.

I base my assumptions of "what most people would do" on how things have gone down in the past.

A 20 to a 15 would always win if you don't add some kind of randomization to it, like a d20.

GAMES ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE REALISTIC if that's not what they are specifically going for.
What fun is it to make a new character, get the perfect roll, and then you get cancer and die.
If we don't have close to a 100% chance to be exactly as good as the best PC, then it's unfair and again, I assume most people wouldn't want to play that.

Where is the fun in coming home from work in real life to go to work in a game?

So you're saying that you think most people would not like an MMORPG that is more reflective of how life actually is in the real world, real human history, or even a fantasy world such as created by Tolkien in the Lord of the Rings?

Whoever said that games are not supposed to be realistic?  I've never heard that before.  And even if some people might think they're not supposed to be, does that automatically mean they can't be?

Of course, there would be RNG (random number generation) involved in battles.  Rolling the virtual dice usually works for such things.  Do you have a 100% to be as good as the best PC in any game?  Really?  What if you can't ever find time to play long enough to get to max level in a sub game?  What if you can't find a good guild to raid with?  What if you can't grind long enough or pay enough to keep up with the BIS PCs in free-to-play games with cash shops?  There are all kinds of things that might happen in real life prevent people from accomplishing what they might wish to in a virtual world.

"Where is the fun coming home from work in real life to go to work in a game?"  I'm sure there's a lot of people that ask that whenever they're asked to grind in an mmorpg.  To me, most mmorpgs are like a second job you don't paid for.

EDIT:  Also, there would be no need to continually generate new content.  The players would create most of the content for each other through their interactions. 

ANOTHER EDIT:  It wouldn't have to start out so large and ambitious.  Perhaps you could begin with 5-10 different communities/realms and less options for how you can train your character and develop your community. 

Noxeron

I stand by my words.
It's to bad that we'll never see a game of this scope being made, so I can never prove what I say is right.

It's a niche that is not very popular.
If you want to simulate real-life, there are other games (mostly offline ones).

That anyone would want to play a game where you simply live another life is beyond my limited comprehension.

cantankerousmage

Noxeron said:

I stand by my words.
It's to bad that we'll never see a game of this scope being made, so I can never prove what I say is right.

It's a niche that is not very popular.
If you want to simulate real-life, there are other games (mostly offline ones).

That anyone would want to play a game where you simply live another life is beyond my limited comprehension.

I stand against your words.

Saying that something will never happen is a very, very strong statement.

You might not be able to prove what you say is right either way.

It's a niche that doesn't really exist yet.

I want to simulate real/realistic fantasy life in an mmorpg.  I don't think I could really do anything quite like this offline, even in a pencil-and-paper rpg.

You wouldn't simply be living another life.  You would have the opportunity to become a hero, a villain, or anything in between.  But you can't become a god compared to other player-characters or npcs.

I won't comment on whether your comprehension is limited or not.  That's not for me to say.