My two cents: 1) Pay to play is risky. Like: why should I pay even 5$ a month for a game I do not know; what if game turns to be total crap? You may want to do some marketing things, like - give away NN trial keys (play gamne for free for, say, 7 days...then feel free to subscribe). Show absence of cash shop OR show that it contains vanity items only. 2) F2P may be organized in a good way. Like: we have 7 races, Human and 6 others; f2p get only Human race. Wanna play others? Consider purchasing for cash or subscribing. There is an Auction House, f2p has 2 slots, P2P has, say, 100 slots. Wanna more? Consider purchasing for cash or subscribing. Players may own land plot and build whatever they want there...just paying players, not free ones (already implemented in Istaria). Wanna your own plot? Consider buying for cash or subscribing. Idea about different servers is good as well.
People may pay subscription, you just need to show that game is worth their cash. Like - no cash shop or very little grind or almost total removal of rng boxes or superb housing or something else.
Subscription is best. However, you have to be confident that your game is fun to play and that people will want to pay to play it.
I mean, look at Nevewinter. Pay to buy more bags. There are tailoring and leatherworking professions in that game, but the tailors and leatherworkers cannot make bags. Pay to buy more bank slots. Pay to change your character's appearance. Pay $10 for a Coalescent Ward. Pay $1 for 10 Preservation Wards. Pay $35 for an epic mount. Pay $35 for an epic companion. Pay $60 for the Knight of the Feywild Pack (so you can play Moon Elves). Pay $75 for the Dragonborn Legend Pack (so you can play Dragonborns). Pay $200 for the Hero of the North Pack (so you can play Menzoberranzan Renegade Drows/Dark Elves). Pay $1.25 for an enchanted key so you can play the lottery with a lockbox.
It's freaking ridiculous.
Obviously, they have no confidence in their game whatsoever.
Or they could just be greedy bastards. Take your pick.
I like this thread, its nice to see wishful thinking
P2P without a cash shop...... lol, 0% chance of longterm sustainability
A few questions for ya mate.
1. Define long-term sustainability. 2. When did WoW introduced the shop? 3. Was the shop introduced to save WoW from closing down?
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Thanks a lot for all the feedback. I read each comment carefully and will consider it all when I'm making a monetization plan.
I do agree with B2P not being ideal, as I'm unlikely to keep generating large numbers of sales on a regular basis, especially early on.
I wonder if people would actually pay a mandatory subscription these days at all. I'd imagine most people find the concept completely foreign at this point in time.
Money is a funny thing,
People don't have any and times are getting harder, I'm sure what ever country your from this is true. We have a wider margin of income to outgoing.
Now I can only speak for the United States in this (and I'm all over the US)........... But somehow people seem to pull money out of their butt ANYWAY TO GET WHAT EVER THEY WANT ! Don't know how but they do.
About 15 years ago, I was thinking, credit cards and bank loans will catch up to this fad of spending but it doesn't for some odd reason. 15 years later the spending still goes on !
Go to any Mall, even Walmarts where the seemingly less income people shop and you rarely see a car less than 3 years old. The shopping epidemic continues anyway, however online shopping seems to be closing stores this is true..... Because of connivance and cheaper prices only. Everyone likes to pay less, that's a different subject.
Now on to mmo's
It's impossible to ask here for pricing input......Many are here looking for a FREE GAME. But I do have to contradict myself in saying many polls were conducted here about F2P and P2P and in every case pay-to play is always the most wanted.... If you want proof ?......Run another one.
Here is another fact:
Your game better be EXTREMELY good. And you better have a HUGE MARKETING BUDGET to get everyone to play you game instantly on release. Because the game will be short lived, like 30 days short lived. Everyone will be gone after the fad is over and no money will be coming in at all. This could be true no matter what payment model you use. But F2P is run of the mill and will be added to the longggggg list of other games here with no income coming in at all.
15 years ago P2P was the only way to go.....In 2017 and beyond though, there are so many games that I really dont even look at P2P anymore... Many of the elite ones I've played (WoW, Eve, GW2) were not worth paying extra for per month.
EVE is the only of those that I consider possibly worth playing. But I don't like space exploration and warfare that much. Doesn't excite me. I would much rather play a similar game set in Medieval Europe, Feudal Japan, or in a medieval fantasy world.
The last game I played regularly, before I quit playing MMORPGs, was Free-to-Play. Though I did spend somewhere between $170-180 on it over the last two and-a-half years plus. I'll never even consider playing another Free-to-Play game however. I'm wise to all their tricks.
This is what going on... It is buy to play but they are keeping the same set up "as free to play set up". Like Shortage on Bank storage and Character,You need the Store for another 8/16 slot open.Better tooling,Better mounts or feeds etc, etc...So its buy to play but still get fucked on everything else...I like back in the Day you bought the game and paid 12 to 15 a month with out some type of bull shit..Today it is getting out of hand,Lets gamble and see if you got your pink dye for your mount and roll that wheel/dice for 25 dollars...You couldnt just buy the fking pink dye...LOL
Today your monthly payment might be closer to 20.00 per month if you look at inflation (maybe a bit less).
However, you also have to look at the cost of game development which has gone up and the idea that many players don't want to pay monthly fees as they want to play multiple games and that adds up.
Now "I" have no problem paying a monthly fee and would have no problem paying $20 or even $30 IF they actually gave good value.
Game companies need more money and sadly they need to capture a lot of it close to release. That's why the whole cash shop thing. It seems in the east that games with cash shops are often slated to have a limited run. They then release another game, get their money, open lots of servers, close them, close the game and then repeat the process.
Here, we want our games to remain open and constantly expanding. Well, that's going to cost money. If these games lose a good amount of their population and that population isn't at the same mass as when the game opened then that's not going to support the game. Raise the monthly fee? Great but many people, as noted, don't want to pay a lot of money per month.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Is it even viable to go an optional subscription route these days? I understand this puts a cap on how much a single person can spend, which is why micro transactions are so profitable. I wonder if it's delusional to abandon micro transactions altogether.
Would a small buy-to-play game struggle building up a community? The initial payment is a clear barrier to entry. I wonder if this is a good thing (weeding out uninterested people), or if it is bad (smaller community overall).
Is there any other disadvantage to the buy-to-play + subscription model? Some factor I missed completely perhaps?
Answer to 1 :
If it is at all possible, the absolute ideal option would be at least one of each of the following :
One server type as Strictly Subscription, No Cash Shop... and possibly a free trial period of some sort (could be time based or level based, or whatever else seems better for your game). The next server type could also rule out a need for free trial.
The other server type as Free to Play With Cash Shop... There are ways to reduce Pay to Win advantages dramatically, thus placing this advantage more in line with other advantages (skill, time, social & people managing among the ones I have figured out exist - all stemming from those players' real life advantages).
That would be ideal, having at least 2 servers in order to do both business models. If that's feasible for you to accomplish, I know you did state you have a small production. The Pay to Win Reduction Methods come from implementing game design that treats of the systems and details which would otherwise allow P2W to run wild.
Answer to 2 :
Any non-free new game will struggle to gain people due to cost of entry / pay wall. Even a free to play will actually struggle to build up community depending on how its advertised etc.
Good Luck
P.S. If you are interested in a Pay to Win Reductions System (should you go Free to Play with Cash Shop AND be concerned with Pay to Win), I can likely spot many details where Pay to Win can be tamed, or even give you a more generalized listing so you can identify them yourself if you wish.
If you go B2P, you will still most likely end up with a cash shop, which you need to make new content for, or you will need to continually put out new expansions for people to buy.
The biggest hurdle of B2P, is selling your game before someone has a chance to even see it. You have to convince them that it's worth the money, but, then again, that also depends on how you sell it and how much you ask.
If say, you are selling on steam, then it will be easier to make sales, if you are making a "Social MMO" you need to guess how much you think it is worth. Do you low ball it and hope you get more people, do you put the price higher, to be on par to AAA games, because you feel it's worth it.
Also, remember, if you ask for cash up front, expect people to check out reviews of your game, and do their best to find out about it, before they buy it, as such, you will need to find some way to advertise your game, and get the info out there, as very little to no info, is a massive red flag to most players, and they won't touch the game, bad reviews are another tanker as well.
There are other alternates to that, like "App games" where you charge something like a dollar to buy it, and people treat that like it's just a phone fee, and think very little to nothing of it. it's almost F2P to them at that point.
As for going F2P. This is always an option, the main thing that happens with F2P games, is that the store items need to be attractive, most games do this by either having them bypass massive grinds, or being more powerful. Typically this will trigger people to fuss that it is P2W.
So, you will need a way to make your cash shop attractive, you will need to put in things that players want, and most importantly, are willing to buy, but you need to balance that, if it smells too much like P2W, you will lose a lot of potential money.
However, lets get something clear about a cash shop and F2P games, 10% of the community will support everyone else, which means, while maybe 50% of your players will spend money on your game, only 10% will spend money consistently and in amounts enough to actually support your game, with less then 1% being Whales, which, overall can spend more then the paying 10% combined.
This is why F2P games can lose half their player base, and they still maintain and in some cases increase their profits.
So my advice on if you go F2P, is know who is talking to you and know their value to your business, it's been shown that Whales and most Paying Players are often quiet, sometimes, too quiet for their own good, but that is because they are having fun playing the game, if they start to speak up, again, my advice would be to listen.
It sounds easy, but keep in mind players whine, they whine way too much, and incessantly, and never more then when they feel entitled to something for free, it's easy to get burned out by the wailing of masses, but.. again.. if your whales talk.. pay attention to them, you lose them, you might very well lose your game, because, the sad reality is, it does not matter how many F2P players you have, none of them are gonna pick up the tab if the paying players walk out. So you can lose literally, 2% of your players and 70% of your income in the course of a week by pissing on the wrong group of people.
Anyway, I wish you good luck with your game! I hope to read about one day here on MMORPG, and I hope it gets a good review!
Comments
1) Pay to play is risky. Like: why should I pay even 5$ a month for a game I do not know; what if game turns to be total crap? You may want to do some marketing things, like - give away NN trial keys (play gamne for free for, say, 7 days...then feel free to subscribe). Show absence of cash shop OR show that it contains vanity items only.
2) F2P may be organized in a good way. Like: we have 7 races, Human and 6 others; f2p get only Human race. Wanna play others? Consider purchasing for cash or subscribing. There is an Auction House, f2p has 2 slots, P2P has, say, 100 slots. Wanna more? Consider purchasing for cash or subscribing. Players may own land plot and build whatever they want there...just paying players, not free ones (already implemented in Istaria). Wanna your own plot? Consider buying for cash or subscribing. Idea about different servers is good as well.
People may pay subscription, you just need to show that game is worth their cash. Like - no cash shop or very little grind or almost total removal of rng boxes or superb housing or something else.
http://www.mmoblogg.wordpress.com
I mean, look at Nevewinter. Pay to buy more bags. There are tailoring and leatherworking professions in that game, but the tailors and leatherworkers cannot make bags. Pay to buy more bank slots. Pay to change your character's appearance. Pay $10 for a Coalescent Ward. Pay $1 for 10 Preservation Wards. Pay $35 for an epic mount. Pay $35 for an epic companion. Pay $60 for the Knight of the Feywild Pack (so you can play Moon Elves). Pay $75 for the Dragonborn Legend Pack (so you can play Dragonborns). Pay $200 for the Hero of the North Pack (so you can play Menzoberranzan Renegade Drows/Dark Elves). Pay $1.25 for an enchanted key so you can play the lottery with a lockbox.
It's freaking ridiculous.
Obviously, they have no confidence in their game whatsoever.
Or they could just be greedy bastards. Take your pick.
A few questions for ya mate.
1. Define long-term sustainability.
2. When did WoW introduced the shop?
3. Was the shop introduced to save WoW from closing down?
Money is a funny thing,
People don't have any and times are getting harder, I'm sure what ever country your from this is true. We have a wider margin of income to outgoing.
Now I can only speak for the United States in this (and I'm all over the US)........... But somehow people seem to pull money out of their butt ANYWAY TO GET WHAT EVER THEY WANT ! Don't know how but they do.
About 15 years ago, I was thinking, credit cards and bank loans will catch up to this fad of spending but it doesn't for some odd reason. 15 years later the spending still goes on !
Go to any Mall, even Walmarts where the seemingly less income people shop and you rarely see a car less than 3 years old. The shopping epidemic continues anyway, however online shopping seems to be closing stores this is true..... Because of connivance and cheaper prices only. Everyone likes to pay less, that's a different subject.
Now on to mmo's
It's impossible to ask here for pricing input......Many are here looking for a FREE GAME. But I do have to contradict myself in saying many polls were conducted here about F2P and P2P and in every case pay-to play is always the most wanted.... If you want proof ?......Run another one.
Here is another fact:
Your game better be EXTREMELY good. And you better have a HUGE MARKETING BUDGET to get everyone to play you game instantly on release. Because the game will be short lived, like 30 days short lived. Everyone will be gone after the fad is over and no money will be coming in at all. This could be true no matter what payment model you use. But F2P is run of the mill and will be added to the longggggg list of other games here with no income coming in at all.
Also, if people really, really want something, they can always recycle or do odd jobs to get enough money to buy a pre-paid credit card or game card.
The last game I played regularly, before I quit playing MMORPGs, was Free-to-Play. Though I did spend somewhere between $170-180 on it over the last two and-a-half years plus. I'll never even consider playing another Free-to-Play game however. I'm wise to all their tricks.
However, you also have to look at the cost of game development which has gone up and the idea that many players don't want to pay monthly fees as they want to play multiple games and that adds up.
Now "I" have no problem paying a monthly fee and would have no problem paying $20 or even $30 IF they actually gave good value.
Game companies need more money and sadly they need to capture a lot of it close to release. That's why the whole cash shop thing. It seems in the east that games with cash shops are often slated to have a limited run. They then release another game, get their money, open lots of servers, close them, close the game and then repeat the process.
Here, we want our games to remain open and constantly expanding. Well, that's going to cost money. If these games lose a good amount of their population and that population isn't at the same mass as when the game opened then that's not going to support the game. Raise the monthly fee? Great but many people, as noted, don't want to pay a lot of money per month.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Answer to 1 :
If it is at all possible, the absolute ideal option would be at least one of each of the following :
- The other server type as Free to Play With Cash Shop... There are ways to reduce Pay to Win advantages dramatically, thus placing this advantage more in line with other advantages (skill, time, social & people managing among the ones I have figured out exist - all stemming from those players' real life advantages).
That would be ideal, having at least 2 servers in order to do both business models. If that's feasible for you to accomplish, I know you did state you have a small production. The Pay to Win Reduction Methods come from implementing game design that treats of the systems and details which would otherwise allow P2W to run wild.Answer to 2 :
Any non-free new game will struggle to gain people due to cost of entry / pay wall. Even a free to play will actually struggle to build up community depending on how its advertised etc.
Good Luck
If you go B2P, you will still most likely end up with a cash shop, which you need to make new content for, or you will need to continually put out new expansions for people to buy.
The biggest hurdle of B2P, is selling your game before someone has a chance to even see it. You have to convince them that it's worth the money, but, then again, that also depends on how you sell it and how much you ask.
If say, you are selling on steam, then it will be easier to make sales, if you are making a "Social MMO" you need to guess how much you think it is worth. Do you low ball it and hope you get more people, do you put the price higher, to be on par to AAA games, because you feel it's worth it.
Also, remember, if you ask for cash up front, expect people to check out reviews of your game, and do their best to find out about it, before they buy it, as such, you will need to find some way to advertise your game, and get the info out there, as very little to no info, is a massive red flag to most players, and they won't touch the game, bad reviews are another tanker as well.
There are other alternates to that, like "App games" where you charge something like a dollar to buy it, and people treat that like it's just a phone fee, and think very little to nothing of it. it's almost F2P to them at that point.
As for going F2P. This is always an option, the main thing that happens with F2P games, is that the store items need to be attractive, most games do this by either having them bypass massive grinds, or being more powerful. Typically this will trigger people to fuss that it is P2W.
So, you will need a way to make your cash shop attractive, you will need to put in things that players want, and most importantly, are willing to buy, but you need to balance that, if it smells too much like P2W, you will lose a lot of potential money.
However, lets get something clear about a cash shop and F2P games, 10% of the community will support everyone else, which means, while maybe 50% of your players will spend money on your game, only 10% will spend money consistently and in amounts enough to actually support your game, with less then 1% being Whales, which, overall can spend more then the paying 10% combined.
This is why F2P games can lose half their player base, and they still maintain and in some cases increase their profits.
So my advice on if you go F2P, is know who is talking to you and know their value to your business, it's been shown that Whales and most Paying Players are often quiet, sometimes, too quiet for their own good, but that is because they are having fun playing the game, if they start to speak up, again, my advice would be to listen.
It sounds easy, but keep in mind players whine, they whine way too much, and incessantly, and never more then when they feel entitled to something for free, it's easy to get burned out by the wailing of masses, but.. again.. if your whales talk.. pay attention to them, you lose them, you might very well lose your game, because, the sad reality is, it does not matter how many F2P players you have, none of them are gonna pick up the tab if the paying players walk out. So you can lose literally, 2% of your players and 70% of your income in the course of a week by pissing on the wrong group of people.
Anyway, I wish you good luck with your game! I hope to read about one day here on MMORPG, and I hope it gets a good review!