Its the same cycle. Hey!! Look what we got. Its awesome and look what we plan to do. Idiots jump on the band wagon like the fools they are. The rest post stuff on forums and try to warn them of what they perceive as a scam.
Every time the next BIG community funded games comes out I ask myself this. What BIG game in the past has come from community funds? None. What mediocre, irrelevant or straight scam has come from community funded games. TONS! Need I say more?
Don't try to talk them out of it. Let the fools spend their money. I just laugh. Now, if I end up being wrong and ONE decent game comes from this type of thing in the future. Guess what? I will buy the game on release and have lost nothing. The end.
The whole point of kickstarter is you look at a project and INVEST in the project. You are dumb if you ever pledge money to a kickstarter project you aren't willing to lose. It's never guarenteed. That is fine if you don't have the money to waste. Just wait for them to come out. However kickstarter has given us a few good games so IMO it is worth it in the end.
Here is Bree's (author of linked article) response about the 30 million in the comment section:
"To be clear, he didn’t actually answer how much money he’d put in so far. He said it would take $30M to complete and implied that he was the only “investor” to date, not that he’d put in $30M himself. He’s said he has more investors waiting in the wings. But if it’s been in production with a dozen devs for the last year or two, welp, do the math on what it’s cost so far. "
It is quite sad indeed. We have literally reached religious zealot style lines of reasoning in a discussion about MMORPGs (again).
Which goes both ways, it's like two religious sects bickering over what the real religion is.
No it is not. Unless you call science and Logic a religion.
Actually it is when you blab about the obvious need for MMOs to have robust netcode (presumably your "science") and then go on a rant about MLM and whatever other shit you can dream up about Steven without making a connection about the two.
Is there something about the Ashes future netcode that you and no one else knows at this point in time years before it's needed?
Your mini crusade is just typical forum warrior horse shit and innuendo.
Are you one of the people claiming you can make a MMORPG for $750k (or $2 million at current Kickstarter funding)? There is enough proof out there to back me up on this.
Yes, i know that with $2 million they can not develop a MMORPG even without net-code.
I don't think you know what innuendo means. I was not being opaque at all. I made it very clear what exactly i think is technically impossible. I will ignore any further "ad hominem" from you. Let me know when you are ready for a mature discussion.
How about $30 million? Can you make it for that? Isn't that the amount they have said they're targeting? Where it comes from, whether they have it, whether they have means to get it is a whole different question than the $30 million they have said they'll need.
So by what science and logic are you bringing up doing it for $750k into the discussion?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Are you guys seriously saying you are 100% sure Steven does not have the 30 million? Or do you believe he doesn't?
I will try one last time:
Believe has nothing to do with it. Until he proves there are $30 million they do not exist. You are free to believe him or not. That does not change the fundamental fact that without proof there are no $30 million.
Not according to Schrodinger's cat.
While he has not provided proof he has the money, you can't provide proof he doesn't. So the 30 million exists and doesn't exist.
Until you break into his bank and force a teller to open up his bank records.
I don't need to provide proof he doesn't.
If i claim unicorns exist and you can't prove they don't exist then i must be right, they exist and voila! I win the argument.
You see were i am going with this?
PS: I can't believe i need to explain this. What kind of forum have i signed up for?
“I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet.” ― Stanisław Lem
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
Which video are you referring to? Their streams or their KS launch trailer?
That was directed at Ponzi.
The videos I have seen are the KS, the one where he walks through a door and the in game class reveal (LOL). The vast majority of footage is cinematic montages. There is nothing that shows real gameplay such as pushing buttons to activate skills and seeing damage numbers or items in an inventory.
Damage numbers and inventory in the 4 minutes of video they showed during a livestream here at 31:47:
Not like that is hard to make though but it does show some sort of interactive elements.
Are you guys seriously saying you are 100% sure Steven does not have the 30 million? Or do you believe he doesn't?
I will try one last time:
Believe has nothing to do with it. Until he proves there are $30 million they do not exist. You are free to believe him or not. That does not change the fundamental fact that without proof there are no $30 million.
You said i can not prove that the $30 million do not exist. This is a logical fallacy because no one can prove the non existence of anything.
You can not prove that unicorns don't exist - therefor they do exist. (WRONG) You can not prove that the $30 Million don't exist - therefor they exist. (WRONG)
No one can blame me that i did not try.
So even though I have $50,000 in my bank. Until I prove it to you, it doesn't exist?
I haven't proven I exist. How do you know you are talking to a real person right now.
The point is, it could exist. You are accepting the fact that it could exist by saying you are waiting for him to prove it to you. So it is contradictory to say it doesn't exist because there is no proof. Unless you are 100% sure it doesn't, IT COULD EXIST.
I get what you are saying I just think your "logic" and wording is severely flawed.
No one can blame me that I did not try. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Either way its possible he does have the money. Because he seems genuine and he seems like a smart guy. I believe him. That is it. It's not all that complicated.
Look, you can believe and say whatever you want. What you can not do is make an argument based on believe that something might exist and then say you are right because no one can proof that it does not exist. You need to really let this one go.
“I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet.” ― Stanisław Lem
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
Which video are you referring to? Their streams or their KS launch trailer?
That was directed at Ponzi.
The videos I have seen are the KS, the one where he walks through a door and the in game class reveal (LOL). The vast majority of footage is cinematic montages. There is nothing that shows real gameplay such as pushing buttons to activate skills and seeing damage numbers or items in an inventory.
The only one I watched was of them downing a "player controlled" boss mob. I use quotes because you never know what's real or staged in digital land.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Are you guys seriously saying you are 100% sure Steven does not have the 30 million? Or do you believe he doesn't?
I will try one last time:
Believe has nothing to do with it. Until he proves there are $30 million they do not exist. You are free to believe him or not. That does not change the fundamental fact that without proof there are no $30 million.
Not according to Schrodinger's cat.
While he has not provided proof he has the money, you can't provide proof he doesn't. So the 30 million exists and doesn't exist.
Until you break into his bank and force a teller to open up his bank records.
I don't need to provide proof he doesn't.
If i claim unicorns exist and you can't prove they don't exist then i must be right, they exist and voila! I win the argument.
You see were i am going with this?
PS: I can't believe i need to explain this. What kind of forum have i signed up for?
LOL. No one is saying you must be right. If you can't prove unicorns don't exist then YES it is possible there is a unicorn out there somewhere. It may be a low chance but its possible.
That is the difference between you and I. I am saying there is a chance he has the money and a chance he doesn't. You are saying "No he hasn't proved it therefor it doesn't exist". Which simply isn't true. By admitting you would believe him if he provided proof you are admitting its possible he has the money. Therefor "it doesn't exist" is wrong and stupid logic.
Your little smug messages at the end are so funny to me. The one who is not getting this is you IMO.
Are you guys seriously saying you are 100% sure Steven does not have the 30 million? Or do you believe he doesn't?
I will try one last time:
Believe has nothing to do with it. Until he proves there are $30 million they do not exist. You are free to believe him or not. That does not change the fundamental fact that without proof there are no $30 million.
You said i can not prove that the $30 million do not exist. This is a logical fallacy because no one can prove the non existence of anything.
You can not prove that unicorns don't exist - therefor they do exist. (WRONG) You can not prove that the $30 Million don't exist - therefor they exist. (WRONG)
No one can blame me that i did not try.
So even though I have $50,000 in my bank. Until I prove it to you, it doesn't exist?
I haven't proven I exist. How do you know you are talking to a real person right now.
The point is, it could exist. You are accepting the fact that it could exist by saying you are waiting for him to prove it to you. So it is contradictory to say it doesn't exist because there is no proof. Unless you are 100% sure it doesn't, IT COULD EXIST.
I get what you are saying I just think your "logic" and wording is severely flawed.
No one can blame me that I did not try. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Either way its possible he does have the money. Because he seems genuine and he seems like a smart guy. I believe him. That is it. It's not all that complicated.
Look, you can believe and say whatever you want. What you can not do is make an argument based on believe that something might exist and then say you are right because no one can proof that it does not exist. You need to really let this one go.
I NEVER SAID I AM RIGHT. Holy god man. Throwing words in my mouth to try and prove yourself right is just sad. I said its possible. There is a possibility he has the money. I believe he is telling the truth. However I am also open to the possibility I am wrong. Unlike you however. If anyone needs to let it go, its you m8.
I get the feeling many people don't really understand how cheap this AOC design really is.IMO it is most certainly doable on a budget where most people with common sense realized Chris could NOT deliver on the budget he claimed he could.
This game is using a lot of automated systems and not even systems i consider much work,so this game although in high end advertising mode,is most certainly doable.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Lol you guys are arguing if they really have $30m, we know they have already spent some on their studio and paid for the first 15 months of development. You can also find in this article that they leased an office of 5,875 square feet for 39 months http://www.sdbj.com/news/2015/oct/16/sorrento-valley-leasings-total-more-5m/ .
You can also look up their past and current job postings so I would not be surprised if they really had a budget of $30m since they are clearly invested for the long term at this point.
Now whether they can actually keep their promises and can hire the appropriate people, we won't know until maybe a year later.
Lol you guys are arguing if they really have $30m, we know they have already spent some on their studio and paid for the first 15 months of development. You can also find in this article that they leased an office of 5,875 square feet for 39 months http://www.sdbj.com/news/2015/oct/16/sorrento-valley-leasings-total-more-5m/ .
You can also look up their past and current job postings so I would not be surprised if they really had a budget of $30m since they are clearly invested for the long term at this point.
Now whether they can actually keep their promises and can hire the appropriate people, we won't know until maybe a year later.
Would seem counter production to lease 5,875 sq. ft. of office space if their goal was to scam people out of money. Not to mention paying all those employees.
Are you guys seriously saying you are 100% sure Steven does not have the 30 million? Or do you believe he doesn't?
I will try one last time:
Believe has nothing to do with it. Until he proves there are $30 million they do not exist. You are free to believe him or not. That does not change the fundamental fact that without proof there are no $30 million.
Not according to Schrodinger's cat.
While he has not provided proof he has the money, you can't provide proof he doesn't. So the 30 million exists and doesn't exist.
Until you break into his bank and force a teller to open up his bank records.
I don't need to provide proof he doesn't.
If i claim unicorns exist and you can't prove they don't exist then i must be right, they exist and voila! I win the argument.
You see were i am going with this?
PS: I can't believe i need to explain this. What kind of forum have i signed up for?
One where you don't understand what's being said.
If someone says they have something and don't offer proof, that doesn't mean they don't have it.
It just means they don't want to offer you proof. Now it seems that he never said he had 30 million just that that is what's needed. That's fairly honest right there given other games that have budgeted wayyyy under.
But if he did say he had it he still doesn't have to offer proof. And you don't have to give him kickstarter money.
I can say I have 20 dollars and you can say "prove it" and I can say don't need to and that doesn't mean I don't have it. I could be lying or could be telling the truth.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Are you guys seriously saying you are 100% sure Steven does not have the 30 million? Or do you believe he doesn't?
I will try one last time:
Believe has nothing to do with it. Until he proves there are $30 million they do not exist. You are free to believe him or not. That does not change the fundamental fact that without proof there are no $30 million.
Not according to Schrodinger's cat.
While he has not provided proof he has the money, you can't provide proof he doesn't. So the 30 million exists and doesn't exist.
Until you break into his bank and force a teller to open up his bank records.
I don't need to provide proof he doesn't.
If i claim unicorns exist and you can't prove they don't exist then i must be right, they exist and voila! I win the argument.
You see were i am going with this?
PS: I can't believe i need to explain this. What kind of forum have i signed up for?
One where you don't understand what's being said.
If someone says they have something and don't offer proof, that doesn't mean they don't have it.
It just means they don't want to offer you proof. Now it seems that he never said he had 30 million just that that is what's needed. That's fairly honest right there given other games that have budgeted wayyyy under.
But if he did say he had it he still doesn't have to offer proof. And you don't have to give him kickstarter money.
I can say I have 20 dollars and you can say "prove it" and I can say don't need to and that doesn't mean I don't have it. I could be lying or could be telling the truth.
No you don't understand what has been discussed here since you came in late.
A: They can't make a MMORPG with (currently $2million) B: They said they have $30 million already invested. A: That is not an argument because we don't know if the $30 million exist. B: You can't proof they don't exist so they must exist. A: NOPE!
You are welcome, but next time pay attention.
“I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet.” ― Stanisław Lem
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
I don't care. Just relax. After all the flops we've seen from AAA games in the past 15 years I have little hope. We have to rely on the indie guys. Don't use KS if you don't want to. Really, that dang simple.
I don't care. Just relax. After all the flops we've seen from AAA games in the past 15 years I have little hope. We have to rely on the indie guys. Don't use KS if you don't want to. Really, that dang simple.
And how do you make that decision? Discussing the merits of a project perhaps?
When you start asking the public for money, especially for a project as risky as this one, it really shouldn't be surprising that that public will start talking about it.
just to jump in, its their responsibility to proof they had the money as per their claim!!! that's how adults handle stuff if u are too young to understand this i'll suggest study first games later.
Damage numbers and inventory in the 4 minutes of video they showed during a livestream here at 31:47
Not like that is hard to make though but it does show some sort of interactive elements.
I have no interest in listening to a MLM guy bloviate to his fans about his amazing new idea that he apparently spent 25 years mentally masturbating too as a gamer so I do not watch the live-streams but fair enough, there is about 90 seconds of seemingly pre-recorded footage that resembles an MMO.
I still don't see anything that would lead me to believe AoC will 'rebirth' a multi billion dollar genre in under 2 years.
I can't speak for, against, or about Ashes of Creation -- I know absolutely nothing about it.
But I do have to ask. Why they hell is there so much hatred towards independent fundraising? It's been proven effective and you don't have to stand in line to prove to an investor anything that is going to be skeptical and likely not interested in even the subject matter.
This couldn't be proven true or false, but mega corporation develops game that sucks but got these investors and no one complains and that company still makes millions/billions. And independent company/team raises a mil just to develop something and everyone freaks out. The difference still is that the fund raised can turn out to be a better game and the artists can get their message across, unlike the bureaucracy game company that is literally only after your money. Sure, it may end up just as bad as the mega corp games, but there isn't some jackass breathing down their neck.
It hasn't been proven effective for an mmo, in fact history would suggest the opposite. I don't think people are necessarily against independent fundraising either: unrealistic timelines, overblown promises in terms of scope of gameplay, a lack of transparency, a tendency to have heavily p2w business models, and a sense that these indie developers are more focused on creating a money making machine than a game are probably what has been getting folks riled up.
Btw, where do you get this idea that games by properly funded companies suck? I (and probably many others on this forum) have played many great games, nearly all of which have been made by companies going through a traditional funding process. How many great mmos have been made through crowdfunding?
just to jump in, its their responsibility to proof they had the money as per their claim!!! that's how adults handle stuff if u are too young to understand this i'll suggest study first games later.
They really didn't claim to have 30 mil, it's a simple matter of misinterpretation in an interview. It was even clarified by the interviewer after the fact.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
just to jump in, its their responsibility to proof they had the money as per their claim!!! that's how adults handle stuff if u are too young to understand this i'll suggest study first games later.
They really didn't claim to have 30 mil, it's a simple matter of misinterpretation in an interview. It was even clarified by the interviewer after the fact.
Right. And the important detail totally lost in this thread is that $30 million sounds like a realistic amount for developing an indie MMORPG and it happens to be the amount that Steven used as his estimate of what is needed.
I have absolutely no problem with casting reasonable doubt on KS project viability when the reasons for that doubt are based on reality. I'm not seeing that here.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
just to jump in, its their responsibility to proof they had the money as per their claim!!! that's how adults handle stuff if u are too young to understand this i'll suggest study first games later.
They really didn't claim to have 30 mil, it's a simple matter of misinterpretation in an interview. It was even clarified by the interviewer after the fact.
Right. And the important detail totally lost in this thread is that $30 million sounds like a realistic amount for developing an indie MMORPG and it happens to be the amount that Steven used as his estimate of what is needed.
I have absolutely no problem with casting reasonable doubt on KS project viability when the reasons for that doubt are based on reality. I'm not seeing that here.
If he HAS $30M then I would agree, but you just admitted that as far as we can tell they do NOT have $30M in the bank. Not having the money you admit you need would fall under the "reasonable doubt on KS project viability" would it not?
If he HAS the $30M in the company's bank account (not his own) then I think it's very viable that this will get to a somewhat comprehensive launch.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
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Comments
"To be clear, he didn’t actually answer how much money he’d put in so far. He said it would take $30M to complete and implied that he was the only “investor” to date, not that he’d put in $30M himself. He’s said he has more investors waiting in the wings. But if it’s been in production with a dozen devs for the last year or two, welp, do the math on what it’s cost so far.
http://massivelyop.com/2017/05/04/ashes-of-creations-steven-sharif-on-his-business-history-30m-funding-goal-and-pvp/
So by what science and logic are you bringing up doing it for $750k into the discussion?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
If i claim unicorns exist and you can't prove they don't exist then i must be right, they exist and voila! I win the argument.
You see were i am going with this?
PS: I can't believe i need to explain this. What kind of forum have i signed up for?
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer,
the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Not like that is hard to make though but it does show some sort of interactive elements.
Look, you can believe and say whatever you want. What you can not do is make an argument based on believe that something might exist and then say you are right because no one can proof that it does not exist. You need to really let this one go.
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer,
the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
That is the difference between you and I. I am saying there is a chance he has the money and a chance he doesn't. You are saying "No he hasn't proved it therefor it doesn't exist". Which simply isn't true. By admitting you would believe him if he provided proof you are admitting its possible he has the money. Therefor "it doesn't exist" is wrong and stupid logic.
Your little smug messages at the end are so funny to me. The one who is not getting this is you IMO.
As soon as you know you don't have to believe.
You can't argue based on "I do not know, but it's like this..."
That's all.
This game is using a lot of automated systems and not even systems i consider much work,so this game although in high end advertising mode,is most certainly doable.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
You can also look up their past and current job postings so I would not be surprised if they really had a budget of $30m since they are clearly invested for the long term at this point.
Now whether they can actually keep their promises and can hire the appropriate people, we won't know until maybe a year later.
Thanks for looking this up!
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If someone says they have something and don't offer proof, that doesn't mean they don't have it.
It just means they don't want to offer you proof. Now it seems that he never said he had 30 million just that that is what's needed. That's fairly honest right there given other games that have budgeted wayyyy under.
But if he did say he had it he still doesn't have to offer proof. And you don't have to give him kickstarter money.
I can say I have 20 dollars and you can say "prove it" and I can say don't need to and that doesn't mean I don't have it. I could be lying or could be telling the truth.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
A: They can't make a MMORPG with (currently $2million)
B: They said they have $30 million already invested.
A: That is not an argument because we don't know if the $30 million exist.
B: You can't proof they don't exist so they must exist.
A: NOPE!
You are welcome, but next time pay attention.
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer,
the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" ― Derek's Law
When you start asking the public for money, especially for a project as risky as this one, it really shouldn't be surprising that that public will start talking about it.
I still don't see anything that would lead me to believe AoC will 'rebirth' a multi billion dollar genre in under 2 years.
Btw, where do you get this idea that games by properly funded companies suck? I (and probably many others on this forum) have played many great games, nearly all of which have been made by companies going through a traditional funding process. How many great mmos have been made through crowdfunding?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I have absolutely no problem with casting reasonable doubt on KS project viability when the reasons for that doubt are based on reality. I'm not seeing that here.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
If he HAS the $30M in the company's bank account (not his own) then I think it's very viable that this will get to a somewhat comprehensive launch.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018