PC Gamer: " There's something strange about Ashes of Creation. "

Prescience

" But looking closer at the crowdfunding campaign, I also had concerns about the game’s unusual referral program and the history of the company making it—and after sifting through posts on various MMO-related subreddits, I wasn't alone."

"But don't go funding the game just because you'll get your money back if it doesn't work out. Kickstarter itself guarantees no refunds, and, cynically speaking, Sharif's promise isn't necessarily legally binding and is ultimately meant to be taken on good faith. If you're going to donate, do so expecting that money to disappear forever—just hope you might get a cool MMO out of it."

http://www.pcgamer.com/ashes-of-creation-kickstarter/

Slapshot1188

That was a really great article...

Of note for those who did not know:
In response to PC Gamer's inquiry, Kickstarter told me they've informed Intrepid Studios, which has removed Kickstarter pledges from its referral program. Since then, Intrepid Studios has significantly updated their referral program page to reflect these changes and has removed examples of how much money YouTubers could hope to make. They’ve also specified that the cash that people can earn from the referral program will be paid out quarterly after the game has launched.

I think he also summed it up well:
 There’s potential for something great, but the risks feel greater too. Anyone thinking of supporting Ashes of Creation prior to launch, whether through Kickstarter or any other means, should think carefully before proceeding.
----------------------

Hmm.. I wonder if it's even legit to update the referral program retroactively.  I mean, some people may have paid money to advertise the game under the assumption that they would get 15% of revenue they generated...

Prescience

Slapshot1188 said:

That was a really great article...

Of note for those who did not know:
In response to PC Gamer's inquiry, Kickstarter told me they've informed Intrepid Studios, which has removed Kickstarter pledges from its referral program. Since then, Intrepid Studios has significantly updated their referral program page to reflect these changes and has removed examples of how much money YouTubers could hope to make. They’ve also specified that the cash that people can earn from the referral program will be paid out quarterly after the game has launched.

I think he also summed it up well:
 There’s potential for something great, but the risks feel greater too. Anyone thinking of supporting Ashes of Creation prior to launch, whether through Kickstarter or any other means, should think carefully before proceeding.

Yeah, we have to warn the people at risk. This needs to be spread to other forums too.

Albatroes

Slapshot1188 said:

That was a really great article...

Of note for those who did not know:
In response to PC Gamer's inquiry, Kickstarter told me they've informed Intrepid Studios, which has removed Kickstarter pledges from its referral program. Since then, Intrepid Studios has significantly updated their referral program page to reflect these changes and has removed examples of how much money YouTubers could hope to make. They’ve also specified that the cash that people can earn from the referral program will be paid out quarterly after the game has launched.

I think he also summed it up well:
 There’s potential for something great, but the risks feel greater too. Anyone thinking of supporting Ashes of Creation prior to launch, whether through Kickstarter or any other means, should think carefully before proceeding.
----------------------

Hmm.. I wonder if it's even legit to update the referral program retroactively.  I mean, some people may have paid money to advertise the game under the assumption that they would get 15% of revenue they generated...

His summary  is just common sense. Unfortunately, common sense hasn't been so common in the past few years.

Galadourn

is this really so much of an issue to start a crusade against it?

laxie

I reached out to Kickstarter to see what their policy is on the matter. "Last year we began allowing financial incentives for referrals," they responded. "But we do not allow revenue or profit sharing, which this program essentially offers through its payouts over time."

What kind of financial incentive is allowed then?

Prescience

Galadourn said:

is this really so much of an issue to start a crusade against it?

" All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. "

Slapshot1188

laxie said:

I reached out to Kickstarter to see what their policy is on the matter. "Last year we began allowing financial incentives for referrals," they responded. "But we do not allow revenue or profit sharing, which this program essentially offers through its payouts over time."

What kind of financial incentive is allowed then?

It is odd... because the referral that is left is just the payouts over time (subs) while they retroactively removed the up front payments of 15% from Kickstarter packages.

SBFord

Prescience said:

Galadourn said:

is this really so much of an issue to start a crusade against it?

" All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. "

Please. Real evil exists in the world. Take a look at some of the horrific events being reported in your newspaper today or on your favorite news channel.

What you are concerned about may or may not be true. Nothing has been proven, just a lot of virtual ink on these forums and elsewhere without any substantive proof of any wrong-doing. I'm sure if there was any legal justification for most of what has been launched at Intrepid, someone would have taken it to the next step.

Ashes of Creation's fund raising doesn't even begin to approach evil.

And as an aside: Caution in all crowd funding is always prudent. That's simply common sense.

laxie

Slapshot1188 said:

It is odd... because the referral that is left is just the payouts over time (subs) while they retroactively removed the up front payments of 15% from Kickstarter packages.

It feels odd indeed. I've not seen any referral incentives on Kickstarter yet.

If they do not allow revenue sharing, do they allow payments per referral? E.g. "For every referral above 50$, we send you 10$ to your bank account"?

Or do they mean more along the lines of store discounts?

bcbully

shit after that KS vid... I'm ready to invest.

Ponzini

Prescience said:

Galadourn said:

is this really so much of an issue to start a crusade against it?

" All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. "

LOL Dude. You are a joke.

So this article seems to be have all his fears addressed point by point. He just remains skeptical. Which is normal with kickstarter. You and this article have told us nothing new. It was already pointed out he doesn't have a legal obligation to pay anyone back if the project isn't released. He has said he will though which counts for something. 

It is up to the individual to decide if he is being dishonest or not. Welcome to kickstarter?

Prescience

Ponzini said:

Prescience said:

Galadourn said:

is this really so much of an issue to start a crusade against it?

" All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. "

LOL Dude. You are a joke.

So this article seems to be have all his fears addressed point by point. He just remains skeptical. Which is normal with kickstarter. You and this article have told us nothing new. It was already pointed out he doesn't have a legal obligation to pay anyone back if the project isn't released. He has said he will though which counts for something. 

It is up to the individual to decide if he is being dishonest or not. Welcome to kickstarter?

Your judgment is clouded.

Ponzini

Slapshot1188 said:

That was a really great article...

Of note for those who did not know:
In response to PC Gamer's inquiry, Kickstarter told me they've informed Intrepid Studios, which has removed Kickstarter pledges from its referral program. Since then, Intrepid Studios has significantly updated their referral program page to reflect these changes and has removed examples of how much money YouTubers could hope to make. They’ve also specified that the cash that people can earn from the referral program will be paid out quarterly after the game has launched.

I think he also summed it up well:
 There’s potential for something great, but the risks feel greater too. Anyone thinking of supporting Ashes of Creation prior to launch, whether through Kickstarter or any other means, should think carefully before proceeding.
----------------------

Hmm.. I wonder if it's even legit to update the referral program retroactively.  I mean, some people may have paid money to advertise the game under the assumption that they would get 15% of revenue they generated...

Someone posted this on reddit:

"UPDATE Steven has sent a retraction out to them since this is WRONG, you do get referral credit for KS packages."

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/6digji/pc_gamer_hitpieceerr_i_mean_article/di2yqem/

Slapshot1188

Ponzini said:

Prescience said:

Galadourn said:

is this really so much of an issue to start a crusade against it?

" All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. "

LOL Dude. You are a joke.

So this article seems to be have all his fears addressed point by point. He just remains skeptical. Which is normal with kickstarter. You and this article have told us nothing new. It was already pointed out he doesn't have a legal obligation to pay anyone back if the project isn't released. He has said he will though which counts for something. 

It is up to the individual to decide if he is being dishonest or not. Welcome to kickstarter?

I think what was new was that they retroactively went and removed Kickstarter purchases from the referral program.  That's gonna impact a lot of people expecting some cash. If even just 50% of the KS purchases had a referral that's gonna be about $200,000 in potential referral payouts that won't happen.  If I had paid to buy advertising on here (like I considered) I'd be super pissed.

Slapshot1188

Ponzini said:

Slapshot1188 said:

That was a really great article...

Of note for those who did not know:
In response to PC Gamer's inquiry, Kickstarter told me they've informed Intrepid Studios, which has removed Kickstarter pledges from its referral program. Since then, Intrepid Studios has significantly updated their referral program page to reflect these changes and has removed examples of how much money YouTubers could hope to make. They’ve also specified that the cash that people can earn from the referral program will be paid out quarterly after the game has launched.

I think he also summed it up well:
 There’s potential for something great, but the risks feel greater too. Anyone thinking of supporting Ashes of Creation prior to launch, whether through Kickstarter or any other means, should think carefully before proceeding.
----------------------

Hmm.. I wonder if it's even legit to update the referral program retroactively.  I mean, some people may have paid money to advertise the game under the assumption that they would get 15% of revenue they generated...

Someone posted this on reddit:

"UPDATE Steven has sent a retraction out to them since this is WRONG, you do get referral credit for KS packages."

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/6digji/pc_gamer_hitpieceerr_i_mean_article/di2yqem/

Is there a link to Steven stating this?  Or is this just some random reddit guy posting?

Ponzini

Prescience said:

Ponzini said:

Prescience said:

Galadourn said:

is this really so much of an issue to start a crusade against it?

" All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. "

LOL Dude. You are a joke.

So this article seems to be have all his fears addressed point by point. He just remains skeptical. Which is normal with kickstarter. You and this article have told us nothing new. It was already pointed out he doesn't have a legal obligation to pay anyone back if the project isn't released. He has said he will though which counts for something. 

It is up to the individual to decide if he is being dishonest or not. Welcome to kickstarter?

Your judgment is clouded.

Wow great argument. Tell me what I need to be worried about and we can go from there. All you did was post some guys opinion.

Ponzini

Slapshot1188 said:

Ponzini said:

Slapshot1188 said:

That was a really great article...

Of note for those who did not know:
In response to PC Gamer's inquiry, Kickstarter told me they've informed Intrepid Studios, which has removed Kickstarter pledges from its referral program. Since then, Intrepid Studios has significantly updated their referral program page to reflect these changes and has removed examples of how much money YouTubers could hope to make. They’ve also specified that the cash that people can earn from the referral program will be paid out quarterly after the game has launched.

I think he also summed it up well:
 There’s potential for something great, but the risks feel greater too. Anyone thinking of supporting Ashes of Creation prior to launch, whether through Kickstarter or any other means, should think carefully before proceeding.
----------------------

Hmm.. I wonder if it's even legit to update the referral program retroactively.  I mean, some people may have paid money to advertise the game under the assumption that they would get 15% of revenue they generated...

Someone posted this on reddit:

"UPDATE Steven has sent a retraction out to them since this is WRONG, you do get referral credit for KS packages."

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/6digji/pc_gamer_hitpieceerr_i_mean_article/di2yqem/

Is there a link to Steven stating this?  Or is this just some random reddit guy posting?

I have no idea how he got this information. He said he was going to look into it and a few hours later posted that update. I will ask for source I guess.

Slapshot1188

Torval said:

Prescience said:

Ponzini said:

Prescience said:

Galadourn said:

is this really so much of an issue to start a crusade against it?

" All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. "

LOL Dude. You are a joke.

So this article seems to be have all his fears addressed point by point. He just remains skeptical. Which is normal with kickstarter. You and this article have told us nothing new. It was already pointed out he doesn't have a legal obligation to pay anyone back if the project isn't released. He has said he will though which counts for something. 

It is up to the individual to decide if he is being dishonest or not. Welcome to kickstarter?

Your judgment is clouded.

Your bias is confirmed.

Can all you guys stay focused on the article?  As much fun as all your back and forth sniping may seem it's really kind of lame.

I for one am interested in finding out if in fact they really retroactively changed the referral program.  If they did this I will absolutely pull my pledge.  I have over 500 referrals.   That's bullshit.  Most people will pledge and get free months subs.. I know a few that went in for the $400+ tier for lifetime sub which would in effect mean no payout.

Ponzini

Torval said:

Prescience said:

Ponzini said:

Prescience said:

Galadourn said:

is this really so much of an issue to start a crusade against it?

" All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. "

LOL Dude. You are a joke.

So this article seems to be have all his fears addressed point by point. He just remains skeptical. Which is normal with kickstarter. You and this article have told us nothing new. It was already pointed out he doesn't have a legal obligation to pay anyone back if the project isn't released. He has said he will though which counts for something. 

It is up to the individual to decide if he is being dishonest or not. Welcome to kickstarter?

Your judgment is clouded.

Your bias is confirmed.

At some point you have to wonder if he is getting paid by a competitor. Or he just really has such little going on in his life that he can spend his time trying to bash a game he obviously isn't into.

Ponzini

Slapshot1188 said:

Torval said:

Prescience said:

Ponzini said:

Prescience said:

Galadourn said:

is this really so much of an issue to start a crusade against it?

" All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. "

LOL Dude. You are a joke.

So this article seems to be have all his fears addressed point by point. He just remains skeptical. Which is normal with kickstarter. You and this article have told us nothing new. It was already pointed out he doesn't have a legal obligation to pay anyone back if the project isn't released. He has said he will though which counts for something. 

It is up to the individual to decide if he is being dishonest or not. Welcome to kickstarter?

Your judgment is clouded.

Your bias is confirmed.

Can all you guys stay focused on the article?  As much fun as all your back and forth sniping may seem it's really kind of lame.

I for one am interested in finding out if in fact they really retroactively changed the referral program.  If they did this I will absolutely pull my pledge.  I have over 500 referrals.   That's bullshit.  Most people will pledge and get free months subs.. I know a few that went in for the $400+ tier for lifetime sub which would in effect mean no payout.

I asked him for his source on Reddit. Gotta wait and see.

Prescience

Slapshot1188 said:

Torval said:

Prescience said:

Ponzini said:

Prescience said:

Galadourn said:

is this really so much of an issue to start a crusade against it?

" All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. "

LOL Dude. You are a joke.

So this article seems to be have all his fears addressed point by point. He just remains skeptical. Which is normal with kickstarter. You and this article have told us nothing new. It was already pointed out he doesn't have a legal obligation to pay anyone back if the project isn't released. He has said he will though which counts for something. 

It is up to the individual to decide if he is being dishonest or not. Welcome to kickstarter?

Your judgment is clouded.

Your bias is confirmed.

Can all you guys stay focused on the article?  As much fun as all your back and forth sniping may seem it's really kind of lame.

I for one am interested in finding out if in fact they really retroactively changed the referral program.  If they did this I will absolutely pull my pledge.  I have over 500 referrals.   That's bullshit.  Most people will pledge and get free months subs.. I know a few that went in for the $400+ tier for lifetime sub which would in effect mean no payout.

This is what happens when people are on the defensive. It's best to just ignore them.

Ponzini

Prescience said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Torval said:

Prescience said:

Ponzini said:

Prescience said:

Galadourn said:

is this really so much of an issue to start a crusade against it?

" All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. "

LOL Dude. You are a joke.

So this article seems to be have all his fears addressed point by point. He just remains skeptical. Which is normal with kickstarter. You and this article have told us nothing new. It was already pointed out he doesn't have a legal obligation to pay anyone back if the project isn't released. He has said he will though which counts for something. 

It is up to the individual to decide if he is being dishonest or not. Welcome to kickstarter?

Your judgment is clouded.

Your bias is confirmed.

Can all you guys stay focused on the article?  As much fun as all your back and forth sniping may seem it's really kind of lame.

I for one am interested in finding out if in fact they really retroactively changed the referral program.  If they did this I will absolutely pull my pledge.  I have over 500 referrals.   That's bullshit.  Most people will pledge and get free months subs.. I know a few that went in for the $400+ tier for lifetime sub which would in effect mean no payout.

This is what happens when people are on defensive. It's best to just ignore them.

That is hilarious since you were the one that posted "your judgement is clouded" first. Pretty sure Slapshot included you in that statement, buddy. Again, you avoid my post where I ask you for some facts that point to malicious intent by the AoC devs. I am fully open to it if someone can prove it to me. Otherwise it is just the usual "kickstarter is risky" statement. Which is obvious.

Slapshot1188

Ponzini said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Torval said:

Prescience said:

Ponzini said:

Prescience said:

Galadourn said:

is this really so much of an issue to start a crusade against it?

" All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. "

LOL Dude. You are a joke.

So this article seems to be have all his fears addressed point by point. He just remains skeptical. Which is normal with kickstarter. You and this article have told us nothing new. It was already pointed out he doesn't have a legal obligation to pay anyone back if the project isn't released. He has said he will though which counts for something. 

It is up to the individual to decide if he is being dishonest or not. Welcome to kickstarter?

Your judgment is clouded.

Your bias is confirmed.

Can all you guys stay focused on the article?  As much fun as all your back and forth sniping may seem it's really kind of lame.

I for one am interested in finding out if in fact they really retroactively changed the referral program.  If they did this I will absolutely pull my pledge.  I have over 500 referrals.   That's bullshit.  Most people will pledge and get free months subs.. I know a few that went in for the $400+ tier for lifetime sub which would in effect mean no payout.

I asked him for his source on Reddit. Gotta wait and see.

I hope you will agree that IF they did make this retroactive change, and did not even announce it... this would be very shady and poor. And you should call on them to apologize.

If they did NOT make this change and the author was bullshitting or just poor journalism he should have to make a public apology and retraction.

Ponzini

Slapshot1188 said:

Ponzini said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Torval said:

Prescience said:

Ponzini said:

Prescience said:

Galadourn said:

is this really so much of an issue to start a crusade against it?

" All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. "

LOL Dude. You are a joke.

So this article seems to be have all his fears addressed point by point. He just remains skeptical. Which is normal with kickstarter. You and this article have told us nothing new. It was already pointed out he doesn't have a legal obligation to pay anyone back if the project isn't released. He has said he will though which counts for something. 

It is up to the individual to decide if he is being dishonest or not. Welcome to kickstarter?

Your judgment is clouded.

Your bias is confirmed.

Can all you guys stay focused on the article?  As much fun as all your back and forth sniping may seem it's really kind of lame.

I for one am interested in finding out if in fact they really retroactively changed the referral program.  If they did this I will absolutely pull my pledge.  I have over 500 referrals.   That's bullshit.  Most people will pledge and get free months subs.. I know a few that went in for the $400+ tier for lifetime sub which would in effect mean no payout.

I asked him for his source on Reddit. Gotta wait and see.

I hope you will agree that IF they did make this retroactive change, and did not even announce it... this would be very shady and poor. And you should call on them to apologize.

If they did NOT make this change and the author was bullshitting or just poor journalism he should have to make a public apology and retraction.

Yes I agree with you. Unfortunately he says he got his answer from the devs on discord 5 hours ago which means there is no source I can give you:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/6digji/pc_gamer_hitpieceerr_i_mean_article/di3e8fg/

However, I doubt he would have reason to lie about it. I guess we could try asking on discord again but they aren't usually sitting around answering questions. Maybe a PM to Steve's reddit?

https://www.reddit.com/user/Steven_AoC

Give that a shot.

Prescience

Ponzini said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Ponzini said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Torval said:

Prescience said:

Ponzini said:

Prescience said:

Galadourn said:

is this really so much of an issue to start a crusade against it?

" All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. "

LOL Dude. You are a joke.

So this article seems to be have all his fears addressed point by point. He just remains skeptical. Which is normal with kickstarter. You and this article have told us nothing new. It was already pointed out he doesn't have a legal obligation to pay anyone back if the project isn't released. He has said he will though which counts for something. 

It is up to the individual to decide if he is being dishonest or not. Welcome to kickstarter?

Your judgment is clouded.

Your bias is confirmed.

Can all you guys stay focused on the article?  As much fun as all your back and forth sniping may seem it's really kind of lame.

I for one am interested in finding out if in fact they really retroactively changed the referral program.  If they did this I will absolutely pull my pledge.  I have over 500 referrals.   That's bullshit.  Most people will pledge and get free months subs.. I know a few that went in for the $400+ tier for lifetime sub which would in effect mean no payout.

I asked him for his source on Reddit. Gotta wait and see.

I hope you will agree that IF they did make this retroactive change, and did not even announce it... this would be very shady and poor. And you should call on them to apologize.

If they did NOT make this change and the author was bullshitting or just poor journalism he should have to make a public apology and retraction.

Yes I agree with you. Unfortunately he says he got his answer from the devs on discord 5 hours ago which means there is no source I can give you:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/6digji/pc_gamer_hitpieceerr_i_mean_article/di3e8fg/

However, I doubt he would have reason to lie about it. I guess we could try asking on discord again but they aren't usually sitting around answering questions. Maybe a PM to Steve's reddit?

https://www.reddit.com/user/Steven_AoC

Give that a shot.

Until there is proof we will assume it's just preliminary damage control.